You know...my first gaming experience with this issue was back in the 90s. Many many moons ago...
I had a friend who'd been with the group forever. We also had a friend who was homophobic to the point of paranoia playing with us. Friend 1 had a secret he was keeping because he didn't want to lose Friend 2's...uh...friendship.
Long story short...Friend 1 was gay and got outed out of spite by a guest player who had issues with him. There was a lot of drama over it but for me the issue came down to why couldn't I still hang with him and have fun whatever his orientation?
Friend 2 eventually realized that friends are friends no matter what...but it was a long hard road.
So why don't we all just be friends here and stop fighting about this issue?
Well said.
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You know...my first gaming experience with this issue was back in the 90s. Many many moons ago...
I had a friend who'd been with the group forever. We also had a friend who was homophobic to the point of paranoia playing with us. Friend 1 had a secret he was keeping because he didn't want to lose Friend 2's...uh...friendship.
Long story short...Friend 1 was gay and got outed out of spite by a guest player who had issues with him. There was a lot of drama over it but for me the issue came down to why couldn't I still hang with him and have fun whatever his orientation?
Friend 2 eventually realized that friends are friends no matter what...but it was a long hard road.
So why don't we all just be friends here and stop fighting about this issue?
I see no real reason. Even going on the assumption that homosexual activity is sin, it's not like anyone else hasn't done SOMETHING bad in their lives. Nobody's perfect. Not even close...
Creative Director
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As I wrote, my concern was based on balance of representation. So, I'm curious: what are these other NPCs you're referring to? I've read the entire thread up to this point and all I've seen was the background Sandpoint relationship.
(The Shackled City path I'm not familiar with, largely because, I think, it was published through Dungeon, and I was a player then. All I'm going on is your company's work on the Pathfinder and Game Mastery materials.)
There haven't been many, alas... but they've been in there. The halfling mentioned upthread is one; the couple in Sandpoint's another. I wanna say there's been a few others (I may be remembering NPCs from some Dungeon adventures, though), but certainly none as high-profile as Ileosa and Sabina. The relationship there is pretty complex, and it doesn't really come to a head until "Crown of Fangs" in Pathfinder 12; judging either character (especially Sabina) as "EVIL" is jumping the gun by quite a bit.
In fact... for those who read between the lines in Pathfinder #9...
So once again...how about outing the gay iconic?
Even if it's just to be done with Seoni+Merisiel+Valeros fantasies. :p
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So once again...how about outing the gay iconic?
Even if it's just to be done with Seoni+Merisiel+Valeros fantasies. :p
I'm going to guess that it's Kyra, actually. "Pick the one you'd least expect," seems to work well on guessing a lot of Paizo stuff.
There actually might be TWO gay iconics, to be honest.So once again...how about outing the gay iconic?
Even if it's just to be done with Seoni+Merisiel+Valeros fantasies. :p
That's a larger cross-section than the population as a whole, isn't it? That would imply that homosexuals on Golarion are particularly disposed towards killing monsters and taking their stuff.
Were there any gay smurfs?Ah yes.....yet another oppportunity to express my theory that the smurf village was a gay utopia until Smurfette arrived.
Just saying.
LOL.. yeah... Papa "Daddy Bear" Smurf was livin' the high life with all of his cubs when "she" came around.
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In fact... for those who read between the lines in Pathfinder #9... ** spoiler omitted **
Ha, I started to get that vibe, then stopped myself and thought "What? Two guys can't have coffee together and talk about stuff without getting intimate?"
Now I know that they can, unless they get intimate. That last part seems to be the key.
So once again...how about outing the gay iconic?
Even if it's just to be done with Seoni+Merisiel+Valeros fantasies. :p
Yes.
We need to move on to Seoni+Merisiel+Kyra fantasies, ASAP.
Though I'm still pulling for Harsk....
Gotta be Selah.
James: let me guess...one male and one female?
This particular issue never really comes up in my campaign. Except when I use female NPCs to come onto my wife via her female PCs.
Which adds a whole level of definition to "role-playing". :D
Timespike:
Atheists are in the minority, especially here in the U.S., which is probably why many seem to be so defensive. I know it is a factor for me. For every person of faith of met who doesn't advocate using force against atheists, I've met two who strongly advocate deporting us (love it or leave it) or worse when we balk at the chipping away of the Constitutional wall between church and state because the United States is a "Christian nation." How is that for anecdotal evidence?
While it is true that it is human nature to do evil to one another, I would characterize religion as a tool for allowing the worst in of us to seize control and do far more damage than they otherwise would have been able to do. In my opinion there is no shortage of historical instances of exactly this occurence. Are there other ways for this to happen? Of course. As I understand it, the Nazis largely rose to power on the back of a depression (though they clearly planned to establish a new church once their conquest was complete. I wonder why?) But as far as whether religion has historically been a force for intolerance, let's just say our perception differs.
I wouldn't go so far as to say I dislike you as a person. I don't know you that well. For all I know, you are the kind of person who has the backbone to stand up and says "no" when you are told to do something you know is wrong. But I do think you are aligning yourself with a group that has largely shown itself all-too-willing to do horrible things for the "greater good."
Your "hate the sinner, not the sin" argument ignores the fact that drug use is a choice, homosexuality isn't. At least not according to the data I've seen.
I don't "know" I'm right. What I know is that neither on of us can prove the other is wrong. And in the absence of proof...what is it they say about the simplest explanation? Omnipotent-anthropomorphic-man-in-the-sky doesn't strike me as simple.
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Squirrels hit that @#$% like they're angry at it. Right and wrong hold no dominion in an upper-bough wrasslin' match.
Yeah, and coming from a zooarchaeology background, let me just say the bacculum, or penis bone, of many rodents do not look like the kind of thing that the Spanish Iquisition might use to ellicit confessions! You'll never look at one of those 'rats with good PR-agents' quite the same again, knowing what he's smuggling up his furry knickers!
/sorry for the squirrel-jacking.
//heh-heh...
That'd be a pretty good guess.Gotta be Selah.
James: let me guess...one male and one female?
Very coy. Will this be part of the hardcover or will you be using subtler means to reveal this aspect of their character?
That'd be a pretty good guess.Gotta be Selah.
James: let me guess...one male and one female?
My guess is Valeros... O,o?
Is pizza okay? I'm packing the cranky atheists and the cranky Christians in a poorly-seperated box and shipping them to you. You live on an otherwise-uninhabited tiny desert island in the middle of the Pacific that doesn't appear on any normal shipping or flight patterns, right? No? Dang. I sent it there already. The friendly agnostics are standing by, awaiting a shipping address.
<G>
Know what would happen on that island when those groups mixed? There would be one dominant question.
"Can any of you guys find food?"
Philosophic discussions would be saved for a time of sated bellies.
Squirrels hit that @#$% like they're angry at it. Right and wrong hold no dominion in an upper-bough wrasslin' match.Yeah, and coming from a zooarchaeology background, let me just say the bacculum, or penis bone, of many rodents do not look like the kind of thing that the Spanish Iquisition might use to ellicit confessions! You'll never look at one of those 'rats with good PR-agents' quite the same again, knowing what he's smuggling up his furry knickers!
/sorry for the squirrel-jacking.
//heh-heh...
Thank you. I knew someone would understand.
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Is pizza okay? I'm packing the cranky atheists and the cranky Christians in a poorly-seperated box and shipping them to you. You live on an otherwise-uninhabited tiny desert island in the middle of the Pacific that doesn't appear on any normal shipping or flight patterns, right? No? Dang. I sent it there already. The friendly agnostics are standing by, awaiting a shipping address.
<G>
Know what would happen on that island when those groups mixed? There would be one dominant question.
"Can any of you guys find food?"
Philosophic discussions would be saved for a time of sated bellies.
Yep. One would almost think that was the idea. <whistles innocently>
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Creative Director
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Very coy. Will this be part of the hardcover or will you be using subtler means to reveal this aspect of their character?That'd be a pretty good guess.Gotta be Selah.
James: let me guess...one male and one female?
To be honest... I'm not sure. It won't be in the hardcover, for sure. If we ever do fiction involving the iconics it might be revealed there. We might someday reveal more info about them in their flavor text in Pathfinder as well. For now, I'm still trying to figure out the proper balance between backstory/personality and crunch information that we want/need to reveal about the iconics, so until I have that all worked out... don't expect many more revelations.
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My guess is Valeros... O,o?That'd be a pretty good guess.Gotta be Selah.
James: let me guess...one male and one female?
<begs the great Paizo gods>
As I have said before, Valeros = hotness
It's not like you have much to choose from in that department. I mean, you've got Valeros, Sajan, and maybe, MAYBE Lem to pick from. The others... Harsk? Ezren? I'm STRAIGHT and I realize Valeros is the only good choice.
I think that this thread points to the depth and complexity of the setting.
I can't imagine having a Greyhawk topic like this.
Forgotten Realms are another matter altogether. You know...Elminster once was a woman for awhile...and there's those Seven Sisters...
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It's not like you have much to choose from in that department. I mean, you've got Valeros, Sajan, and maybe, MAYBE Lem to pick from. The others... Harsk? Ezren? I'm STRAIGHT and I realize Valeros is the only good choice.My guess is Valeros... O,o?That'd be a pretty good guess.Gotta be Selah.
James: let me guess...one male and one female?
<begs the great Paizo gods>
As I have said before, Valeros = hotness
Okay, good point. <grin>
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I think that this thread points to the depth and complexity of the setting.
I can't imagine having a Greyhawk topic like this.
Forgotten Realms are another matter altogether. You know...Elminster once was a woman for awhile...and there's those Seven Sisters...
And yet, Riese, the player character who came out on this very thread, is in my Greyhawk game.
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It's not like you have much to choose from in that department. I mean, you've got Valeros, Sajan, and maybe, MAYBE Lem to pick from. The others... Harsk? Ezren? I'm STRAIGHT and I realize Valeros is the only good choice.My guess is Valeros... O,o?That'd be a pretty good guess.Gotta be Selah.
James: let me guess...one male and one female?
<begs the great Paizo gods>
As I have said before, Valeros = hotness
Dwarven constitution is not to be dismissed lightly now.
.
It's not like you have much to choose from in that department. I mean, you've got Valeros, Sajan, and maybe, MAYBE Lem to pick from. The others... Harsk? Ezren? I'm STRAIGHT and I realize Valeros is the only good choice.
Well, Ezren IS a possibility I guess. Rowing did out Dumbledore as being gay... LINKIE
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On the whole issue of -phobia/-ism/intolerance:
Put people in a room, wait, and they'll all find some reason to split into different corners and try to kill one another.
Prejudice is a byproduct of how the human mind works. Stereotypes are how we process, store and reference information; a stereotype tells us How to Behave when presented with a situation. Not only is it there to help us survive ("A big man covered in blood with a weapon = threat to me". He might be a butcher and not a threat, but the general stereotype of "big bloody man + weapon" = danger) but also as the brain's energy short-cut. If the brain stored EVERY situation, considering it an exception, that'd be a LOT of space to keep, and referencing that would be quite difficult.
The real bugger about the human brain is, to maintain our stereotypes, it will intentionally rememembers information that reinforces a belief or stereotype, but willfully ignores a situation or fact that disproves a belief or stereotype. Or worse, each situation/fact that goes against the pre-existing stereotype/belief is filed under "Exception to the rule". "My Buddy Jim is a Foo. Most Foos are very bad, but Jim is an example of a Good Foo, rare among Foos."
I believe that we as people must recognize the shortcomings of this system, and rise above it, rathe than give into it.
One question that seems to stem from an argument in this thread is: Is it not right to be intolerant of intolerance?
I that intolerant of intolerance is acceptable. However, blaming the suggested "Source" of that intolerance is not.
The way some people in this thread speak, "Some people who are religious use religion as an excuse to dislike gays. Therefore, I do not like religion at all because it gives these people an excuse to hate gays." That undermines the person's argument completely. Because it would be like saying "Some white people are racist against blacks. Therefore I do not like white people because some use their skin color to hate other people." It also looks very...
I tried to say this earlier, but you did a better job of it than me.
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See the "Sandpoint is amazing" thread for earlier forays into this territory...Ah yes, thanks for that. I remember avoiding the thread like the plague at the time. Going back and reading it now, I’m on page 3 and already want to saw my wrists off.
I swear I didn't know what I was starting! Oddly enough my "Korvosa is Amazing" thread didn't really catch on.
Wes has alluded to in other threads RE: the iconics that the 12th iconic, a half elf multiclass Fighter/Sorc is going to be gay (well he told me I was going to really like that char and he seems to know me well. =p) I'm one gay who is glad to see NPCs I can relate with, and absolutely when it adds something to the setting it should be included.
I don't know how many people here are Vampire fans, but Victorian Age: Vampire (one of the best non-fantasy settings ever) has a couple pages on homosexuality and brings up Oscar Wilde (and maybe Philip Eulenburg, don't remember). Their stories told a lot about the Victorian mindsets of the time, and knowing how different cultures treat different sexual views tells a lot about said culture. Take for example Korvosa's vice tax, they know what goes on and they get their cut.
Whereas Sandpoint was meant to be a "nice home" for the players and thus was made so that players of all types would feel comfortable there. I'm looking forward to seeing Riddleport and Cheliax (though I was reallllly hoping for Mendev for AP 4).
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I'm one gay who is glad to see NPCs I can relate with, and absolutely when it adds something to the setting it should be included.
This is one thing that strikes me as odd. It seems from this thread like a lot of gay players relate best to gay characters. I find that an NPC's sexual orientation has precious little to do with it. I tend to relate best to non-chaotic, non-evil characters, regardless of their sexuality. I see who you're willing to take up arms against as being more important than who you want to sleep with.
Edit: then again, I'm willing to accept that I might be the odd one...
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There actually might be TWO gay iconics, to be honest.So once again...how about outing the gay iconic?
Even if it's just to be done with Seoni+Merisiel+Valeros fantasies. :p
Might be two? So one is gay and one is bi? If so i say mer is the Bi one, she seems like a little elven slut and would sleep with anything... well anything but a dwarf of course. A girl has to have some standards after all. :)
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I'm one gay who is glad to see NPCs I can relate with, and absolutely when it adds something to the setting it should be included.This is one thing that strikes me as odd. It seems like a lot of gay players relate best to gay characters. I find that an NPC's sexual orientation has precious little to do with it. I tend to relate best to non-chaotic, non-evil characters, regardless of their sexuality. I see who you're willing to take up arms against as being more important than who you want to sleep with.
Makes sense to me. I relate best with female characters. Not that i can't with male character but more so with female ones. Cause I know what it's like and there is that common connection. I am sure it is the same with many LGB people as well.
Maybe an experience point reward for FABULOUS! roleplaying.
I can just see Krusk eyeing Jozan longingly from across the dungeon corridor...
Whoa. Big thread. Lots to reply to, lots to read. Pack a lunch, people, this is going to be a long one, in several parts. Call me the Stephen King of forums or something.
Is sex really something that goes down in alot of campaigns?
Only yesterday, the party rogue managed to impregnate a young women from Turtleback Ferry.
The party cleric (Desna priest) usually seeks someone to spend the night, and the shaonti duskblade gets hookers (but then again, he's so ugly and bad-mannered that he probably has to pay for it).
It's part of life, and adventurers aren't the normal, settled-down kind of people, and facing mortal danger on a daily basis, they often subscribe to the line "Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die".
Is it really necesary to have everything on earth f*% friendly? Sexual orientation is something that has no business being incorporated into an rpg....It's about as relevant as anything else. Romance, unrequited love, scandal (especially among nobility), and so on are pretty prevalent in RPGs.
You can't leave sexual orientation out unless you erase all mention of gender. Mentioning someone's loved ones/ spouses is very commonplace, and if the person happens to be homosexual, you have to mention that he's living together with another dude/girl.
I mean dude, the Drow are into BDSM for gods' sake.
In the novels I've read that contained drow, homosexuality was mentioned more than once. Seems to be commonplace. If they see something pretty, they want to have it. If it happens to be another priestess, they don't care.
Let us not forget Amazons and the Spartans for that matter, either.Furthermore, homosexuality has always existed. So it seems pretty reasonable to at least address the issue.
Amazons were lesbian? I haven't delved into that matter too much, I must admit. There's always the part where they abduct males for mating purposes (and kill them after, or sometimes, during).
But you're right. Homosexuality (and incest, for that matter) aren't new things. And there have been times and places where they were considered normal.
As for homosexuality and fantasy: In the Blue Rose book, homosexuality is mentioned. In fact, it's one point of contention between two nations - one being all about reproduction and rules, viewing homosexuality as a perverse waste of time (since it doesn't produce offspring; and the other being pro homosexuality and freedom, letting everyone decide for himself who and what he likes.
For instance, I've tried running Porphyry House Horror (the book of Vile Darkness special adventure with much more "adult" themes than homosexuality)
I only read a line about it on Wikipedia, but the part where you have to infiltrate a harem to prevent a sacrificial orgy interests me. I'll have to get that adventure!
for my group and I've never seen a more uncomfortable bunch of players.
I actually like to crack their shells, so to speak, to show them that it's not all a fun fair. So far, Hook Mountain worked well enough. Once death wasn't the worst the characters had to fear, they learned to hate the Grauls and Kreegs with a passion.
I am (personally) fine with gay or lesbian characters in media (including D&D) but I do, on the other hand, wonder how much really needs to be spelled out.
Well, mentioning that two people of the same sex are lovers needs to be spelled out, I'd say.
There is no "average" D&D group, but I'm curious how many groups are comfortable enough in a role playing environment to engage in PC/NPC or PC/PC romances beyond,"Okay, on your time off you go on some more dates with NPCnamehere, and you're all hunky dory. Are you buying anything in town while you're there?" I've never sat at a table where that kind of interaction was role played out in real time.
I think I witnessed one intercourse more or less played out, but it was between two characters that were a couple, and the two players were a couple, too, and it was all verbal and didn't go into too much detail.
Beyond that, the descriptions trail off after "do you remember to drink your infertility potion" and pick up again with "well, you guys meet up for adventuring, and two of the characters have those kind of grins."
But that's because we're an all-guy group, and none of us are gay, and we have no intention of going into any graphical detail.
Doesn't mean that the characters can't have a good time, though.
Look at the hubub over GTA: San Andreas. The game lets you run over hookers with a car, stab old laddies, etc. But the level of public outcry over this is NOTHING compared to the shrieking panic over a PG-13 HIDDEN cutscene of your character having sex (with all his clothes on).
Wasn't it, in fact, not just hidden but edited out, and you had to apply a third-party patch to get it back in? Anyway, I agree. the whole thing was just ridiculous. Parents that don't bat an eye on their children stealing cars and killing people for fun and profit - but then going a+*~&+@ about some heavily pixelated sex should get their head examined.
Oh, and about the gay iconic: I say Seoni. But not gay, but bi. I think that she allows herself so little time for tender moments, that if she gets in the mood or meet someone she likes, she doesn't want to waste that opportunity by being picky about his or her gender.
It ain't just American culture. Though some places are starting to come around (some parts of Europe) [...] Sex becomes taboo in general, non-procreative sex far beyond the pale.
I must live on one of the parts, then. It's not a taboo at all here.
Well you have a more mature gaming group then mine. The subject isn't exactly taboo, but almost no one plays up their sexuality. Hell one of my players, after two years of gaming mind you, asked me seriously could a guy player play a female character. Well I said, since I've been playing Princess Nat leader of our group since we started, I think you can.
In one group, we have one "cross-playing" character right now - though, I must say, he's a bit (or more than a bit) immature about it (or, more precisely, the character concept could be balled immature, the playing a different gender doesn't have too much to do with it). It's no problem at the table.
I do remember one guy playing a female character - and a stunning one to boot. The problem was that the guy was an uptight, immature pest, it was an all-evil game and nothing was taken too seriously. Add to that that he wasn't good at separating player and character, and you have a blood feud waiting to happen.
We usually said stuff like "we'll let the anti-paladinness go first, because she's a tank type - plus, we want to stare at her ass a bit", and one time his character attacked mine without in-game provocation.
I think it's all about playing with the right people.
HMMM I guess i am homophobic. Not a crime i guess. In todays enlightened society it seems hip to ridicule anyone with any kind of moral center or religious belief.
Well, kind of. If they want to force their own belief onto onto others, they better be ready for some hostility.
Remember: You have the right to your own religion and opinion, but only as long as you won't hurt others with your belief.
On a parting note ,if there is room in PFRPG for a gay iconic, there has to be room for psionics as well.
Nah. Reason being, you can get the fact that he's gay across in a sentence or two, but the psionic rules take up a lot more space.
I'm religious, but I find myself more and more in the "God's great, but his fanclub creeps me out" group.
I was about to reply with a lot of words, but you summed it up well. Nothing wrong with religion, it's just that some who are religious use it as an excuse to hurt others, or feel superior to others, or are generally among the vilest creatures on earth. As always, the problem is that those guys are the loudest.
My goodness, this thread took a long, long time to pop up. I noticed the homosexual Paladin first read through, because it was such a bold choice. (...) Pathfinder contains more mature themes than other adventures, so par for the course.
That's one of the things I love about Pathfinder. It doesn't make you put on rose-coloured glasses while reading.
Also, if we’re taking sides; I love religion, I think it’s a beautiful thing, and I think everyone should have one. I just don’t think they should ever get together and talk about it.
Well said!
I dont consider homosexuality to be unholy or anything, I'm just not crazy about it. I dont wayt to get in the way of anybody's happiness
Same here. I'm perfectly straight, wouldn't want to watch two men, but that's just a matter of taste. Nothing wrong with any of it, as long as they don't force themselves upon me, which they usually don't do. And if they did, it wouldn't be bad because of the gay part, but because of the forcing part. It's simple really.
but I kind of wish that the gays were a little less noisy. "you like men, I get it!"
I guess this is selective reporting. You just notice it more. They're probably not more or less noisy about it than those who are straight. It's just that you don't about it that way whan a guy tells you how hot he finds this girl or that women and that he'd like nothing better right now than (insert your favourite euphemism or dysphemism for sex).
But, from a political perspective, I'm all for things like gay marriage, given the people who are pissed off about it ;)
Wasn't it Schwarzenegger who said that homosexual marriages should take place between a man and a woman?
Oh, Stephen King of forums or something? Fix those quotes! ;)
edit: beat me to it!
After all, Dragons/fiends/etc are capable of shapeshifting and breeding with other species. Now, does this imply that dragons and fiends rape everything non-sentient that they breed with?
Thiis is a good point, I mean what was the old saying in D&D,
"Humans will sleep with anything"
After seeint the half-beholder templet I have to agree.
I can just see Krusk eyeing Jozan longingly from across the dungeon corridor...
lol
Jozan: "I'll watch the back door, guys."
So once again...how about outing the gay iconic?
Even if it's just to be done with Seoni+Merisiel+Valeros fantasies. :p
Who's the Barbarian icon, cause honestly anyone who runs around without a top and oily skin while fighting big strong musle bound orcs, well you do the math.
That'd be a pretty good guess.Gotta be Selah.
James: let me guess...one male and one female?
No no I think maybe there are three,
one male
one female
one other
Is it really necesary to have everything on earth f%# friendly? Sexual orientation is something that has no business being incorporated into an rpg.... if you feel the need for such perversion you could add it yourself.
I don't hold anything personally against the gay community like some people do, but i for one am sick of it being shoved into the face of the world through the popular media.Nobody really cares to see that, and a certain level of decency that once seemed to exist is rapidly fading away.Keep it to yourselves.Without getting too riled up by your post...
Yes. It is necessary. Just as it's necessary to move beyond having every PC and NPC in the game be white. And why it's important to show women in positions of power (be they bad like Queen Ileosa or good like Mayor Kendra or whatever.) It's called diversity, and it's a Good Thing. If diversity isn't something that you're interested in, Paizo products might not be for you.
Actually I disagree.
Why make mention to colour, race, creed at all?
I agree that diversity is a good thing. However, drawing special attention to, well, whatever, changes the notion from accepted to simply "in your face".
If I want a asain-black one eyed man who is gay and also a worshipper of all things not nice, I will go with it (and quite honestly I think I ay use that as a Vampire in my MCWoD campaign).
However, most characters are better used, in my view, to the logical structure of the setting. Using old school Forgotten Realms here. Waterdeep I see as a culturally diverse bunch. Within that area, minorities would certainly exist.
But would tolerance exist? I think they would find priests and followers of fertility gods as not so.
Are people from Thay welcomed or reviled?
I don't want to see tokenism. I want to see believable motives and logical principles. That includes diversity, but should carry the same challenges that ancient greece and merry old England had.