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Please, can you take the discussion about Erastil's misogyny to separate thread except for parts directly relevant to homosexuality. Thank you.
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The people that keep calling the notion of promoting motherhood and families misogynistic and backwardThink about it for a bit guys, if most of the women decided not to have children how long do you think these races and societies would exist?Who here has espoused this view?
No, we're calling the idea that being female means you only get to do that and are wrong to do anything else misogynistic and backward.
Creative Director
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Now, I like a little bit of wart on my deities. It gives them moral complexity. It also lays out the position that you can have a few backwards attitudes and still be good in the main. I think it was a ballsy position to lay out for a LG deity and I don't like the backpedaling on it. I thought it was every bit as bold as putting in homosexual characters in Sandpoint and having it not be a big deal.
I'm "backpedaling" because I see nothing good in the nature of mysogyny, and a good deity shouldn't promote it. If Erastil was lawful neutral, then fine. But he's not; he's lawful good, and that bit needs to change.
Or at least be better clarified, to say something like "Erastil expects one parent to stay behind and take care of the home and protect the children."
There are the right places and wrong places to take up ballsy positions. This isn't a right place to do so in my opinion.
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Eh, I don't mind warts/blind spots, but personally, having a lawful good deity being into something as evil as misogyny is pretty hard to swallow. To me it's like saying that Sarenrae is actually pro-slavery (as in actively encouraging it), or that Iomedae actually instituted something like the Inquisition, or that Cayden Cailean dictated a ritual wherein his followers get drunk and beat up innocent strangers. I can see any of those things happening because of humans misinterpreting what a good god wants, but not as a characteristic/act of a good god itself.(Also, I get that Erastil is supposed to be a traditionalist, but pairing that with misogyny seems to suggest that misogyny = traditional, and there is nothing to indicate that Golarion has ever had a tradition of viewing possessing two X chromosomes as a detriment.)
But that's my personal take. As with everything else, everyone's entitled to their own personal adjustments/interpretations.
A different and generally subordinate gender role for women, among free and good-willed people, is pretty much worlds away from slavery, an Inquisition, and beating up stranger. Isn't that as bad a comparison as comparing homosexuality to bestiality? They're not slippery slopes, one leading inexorably to the other.
I don't see a difference between enforced subordinate gender roles and slavery. I'm confused as to how they're different, other than that you can buy and sell slaves. Other than that portion, though, they seem pretty similar in spirit: certain people are less than fully human/equal to other humans and therefore don't get choices about what they do. Just because we, as a society, recognize unequivocally that one is wrong but still have a lot of prejudices and romanticism left over about the other that leads us to treat it as maybe not so bad doesn't mean that that general perception is fair or objective.
But this is getting off-topic from homosexuality in Golarion.
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No, we're calling the idea that being female means you only get to do that and are wrong to do anything else misogynistic and backward.The people that keep calling the notion of promoting motherhood and families misogynistic and backwardThink about it for a bit guys, if most of the women decided not to have children how long do you think these races and societies would exist?Who here has espoused this view?
Again, i do not recall ever hearing of erastil sending his followers to lock all women at home, just encouraging them to be wives and mothers same as he seems to think men are better off farmers and craftsmen than playing soldier or goofing off in ruins. He sounds more like a kindly father telling his children what he has seen work well for mankind not a tyrant forcing people into roles just because.
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Jessica Price, I have no idea when you became a Paizo staffer, but your posts that I've read lately make me incredibly happy. You rock. :D
Aw, thanks! I snuck in and sat down at a desk and they haven't noticed yet. ;-)
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And therein is the problem, Andrew! It's fine to encourage people to be mothers and fathers and craftsmen and farmers. It's not cool (at least, not Good-aligned) to encourage women to be mothers only, and men to be farmers/craftsmen/whatever other influential, active role they like. Do you not understand the difference?
Now, I like a little bit of wart on my deities. It gives them moral complexity. It also lays out the position that you can have a few backwards attitudes and still be good in the main. I think it was a ballsy position to lay out for a LG deity and I don't like the backpedaling on it. I thought it was every bit as bold as putting in homosexual characters in Sandpoint and having it not be a big deal.Ditto. I like that Erastil can be good and lawful without 100% agreeing with every position that I hold. It's more thought provoking (and conversation provoking!) that way.
I agree. I mean, if we have to take alignment seriously (and I guess we do) it gets all weird, but I liked the idea of a patriarchalist sexist pig-dog LG deity.
Please, can you take the discussion about Erastil's misogyny to separate thread except for parts directly relevant to homosexuality. Thank you.
Oh, woops.
Btw, everything Paizo says about traditional goblin gender roles is a lie!!
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I like the inclusion of things like sexual and gender diversity in Golarion, but I find the almost universal acceptance of these things by every race, gender, nation, and deity to be a bit bland...
If a setting is to be truly diverse, shouldn’t the negative as well as the positive of these ideals be included?
Anyway, just my thoughts on the subject; YMMV and all of that...
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And therein is the problem, Andrew! It's fine to encourage people to be mothers and fathers and craftsmen and farmers. It's not cool (at least, not Good-aligned) to encourage women to be mothers only, and men to be farmers/craftsmen/whatever other influential, active role they like. Do you not understand the difference?
I think in many ways mother are the most influential and important role. and it need not be the only role but without bearing and raising children there IS NO society.
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I like the inclusion of things like sexual and gender diversity in Golarion, but I find the almost universal acceptance of these things by every race, gender, nation, and deity to be a bit bland...
If a setting is to be truly diverse, shouldn’t the negative as well as the positive of these ideals be included?
Anyway, just my thoughts on the subject; YMMV and all of that...
Very true. different nations races and gods should have a different view on many things. But question modern perceptions of things like gender roles, acceptance of gays, etc people tend to get touchy. frankly im surprised on the stance on slavery really.
On-Erastil: I think him putting Women into the "Misogynistic" Roles is less Misogyny as more of protect the main key to spreading Communities.
After all a community of 1 Woman and 5 Men can't "spread" enough to last for to many generations. But a community of 1 Man and 5 Women can "spread" enough to last for a quite a few generations.
Now I think he would lean more for the Tribal Roles Dynamic. Men are the Front Line with Women being the Last Line with a few Exceptions. Mainly when a Women proves to be the better choice than any man.
Look to some Tribes of Native Americans. Outsiders dealt mostly with Male Chiefs. But the actual Roles where the Men handle Defense and Hunting while Women handle the Village. But the Women had more Power & Job options than any man could have. If anything most Tribal Cultures were more towards the Misandry side of things.
@Andrew_R: Which Stance? Andoran's or what? Because Andoran was a shock to me. I always heard Golarion was very close to Medieval Earth. Then I see a Medieval Pseudo-Modern America.
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I think in many ways mother are the most influential and important role. and it need not be the only role but without bearing and raising children there IS NO society.
It's nice of you to think that, but in reality and throughout history women have traditionally had very little power and self-determination because of the view that they are only fit to be child-bearers. Seeing something like this reflected in the Good pantheon (with a Lawful Good god) makes me feel incredibly uncomfortable.
It is very much akin to having a Good-aligned god that believes that the Mwangi people should be enslaved. Or a Good-aligned god that promotes homophobia. Insulting, alienating to black players (or gay players), and fundamentally inappropriate for the divine representation of love, altruism, justice, and all other aspects of Good.
If a setting is to be truly diverse, shouldn’t the negative as well as the positive of these ideals be included?
As we have discussed in this thread, and I would really like to return to discussing, there are certainly many places in the world where homosexuality would be questioned. But you also might notice that few places explicitly say "we are okay with gays" - it's more of a subtextual thing, like having a gay paladin, etc. So you're able to ramp up the acceptance (or lack thereof) as much as you like on a broader basis.
We're talking about what the Good-aligned gods think. And I strongly believe that they shouldn't encourage hatred in their doctrines, whether that's racism, misogyny, sexism, etc. Individual members of the clergy may well do so, but it shouldn't be a core tenet of the faith at all.
And ultimately, as interesting as it might seem to you, there's more than enough crap in TTRPG settings that serve only to alienate women, people of colour, gender/sexual minorities, etc. Please can we have our one setting where diversity is embraced rather than spat upon for "realism" reasons?
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After all a community of 1 Woman and 5 Men can't "spread" enough to last for to many generations. But a community of 1 Man and 5 Women can "spread" enough to last for a quite a few generations.
Now I think he would lean more for the Tribal Roles Dynamic. Men are the Front Line with Women being the Last Line with a few Exceptions. Mainly when a Women proves to be the better choice than any man.
1. Magic makes this irrelevant. Use alter self to turn into a woman. Or use some other spell to become pregnant despite your lack of the correct internal physiology. Bam. Problem solved.
2. In a world where a man is as likely as a woman to have high physical abilities (or, alternatively, high magical abilities), this is irrelevant.
Now can we return to discussing homosexuality in Golarion?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Put me also in the "Erastil is not a Misogynist" camp.
From a Lawful (and low magic) way, the role of women as the civilizing influence while men are the hunter/gatherers makes sense. Now clearly magic can change that, but I don't see create milk or induce lactation on the cantrip/low level spell list. That's not misogyny, that's biology.
Now for the good aspect of it would be that you don't force a woman into the 'barefoot and pregnant' role, anymore than you force the man into the bread winner role. I can picture an Erastil who prefers the woman to be the one to maintain the house, while the man goes out and earns the food/gold to maintain the house. But he doesn't enforce those roles. Erastil isn't going to send a celestial templated stag to trample the woman hunter, nor is he going to burn down the house of Mr. Mom. He will be pissed if the house is unclean, the kids aren't fed, and they're on foodstamps.
Now I am a sexist pig. I think women are better built mentally physically to be the social element, the home maker etc. At the same time I think the man is the one who has to provide the means to support the house. If he can't provide a home for his woman, he doesn't deserve one. I'm also the kind of guy who doesn't think everyone should live by my riles.
Oh and oblig on topic... One of my girls feels the exact same way and gets really angry when she doesn't feel she's contributing enough. The phrase "Amber, you're such a dude." is often heard around here, both from me and her girlfriend.
And therein is the problem, Andrew! It's fine to encourage people to be mothers and fathers and craftsmen and farmers. It's not cool (at least, not Good-aligned) to encourage women to be mothers only, and men to be farmers/craftsmen/whatever other influential, active role they like. Do you not understand the difference?
But is that actually the case? Mothers only for women while men get carte blanche? I'm not seeing it in Erastil's write-up.
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I'm going to ask all the Erastil/gender roles-interested people to have a read of this thread and continue discussion there if they are interested, unless it has something specifically to do with homosexuality.
I'm going to ask all the Erastil/gender roles-interested people to have a read of this thread and continue discussion there if they are interested, unless it has something specifically to do with homosexuality.
But all the people I want to talk to are in here!
Besides, it's locked.
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I'm going to ask all the Erastil/gender roles-interested people to have a read of this thread and continue discussion there if they are interested, unless it has something specifically to do with homosexuality.
You do realize that is a locked thread right?
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I'm going to ask all the Erastil/gender roles-interested people to have a read of this thread and continue discussion there if they are interested, unless it has something specifically to do with homosexuality.
Threads here on Paizo never stay 100% on topic...
Going back to paladins in Pathfinder, we do have a section in Ultimate Magic on paladin oaths—optional vows paladins can swear to increase their power. About half are oaths to fight specific threats (aberrations, fiends, undead, etc.), and half are oaths to pursue specific virtues: charity, chastity, loyalty, and vengeance.
Here's the description for chastity, the most relevant of these (emphasis mine):
A chaste paladin proves her purity by way of her actions and her abstinence from romantic activities. Many believe that this oath is only about sex, but it is really an oath about the romantic notion that a single person could be more important than all the evils facing the world—it is this perceived selfishness that the bearer of the Oath of Chastity strives to reject. In doing so, she gains purifying power.
Surprisingly the Erastil conversation is relevant.
On-Topic: Tribal, Roman, & many other Societies are very open. Now they didn't support Marriage or Permanent Bonding, but they weren't like say... the Cooper Family from Red State.
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Gender roles are very relevent to a conversation about homosexuality too i think. So many of our current trend in what a gay man/ lesbian "is" is partially because of our gender roles. Without our traditional gender roles we probably would not have the gender reversal so common in modern stereotype gays. Gay greek men did not wear skinny jeans and obsess about home decor, i think that is a product of modern gay men rebelling against gender expectations and holding to something see as feminine. Most of what gay folks are in golarion would be vastly different without our notions of gender role
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Usually in both Roman and especially in "tribal" societies, homoseuality was one of two things. Either it was a form of master/slave relationship, which was the acceptible form, but only under the right conditions, and also really dependant on the timeframe, or it was the modern form or same sex couplings for fun/romance, which was not really accepted, particularly publically.
It was also very different for gender. F/F more typical as many times their husbands would be away for long periods of time, and for the more rich, especially in the later years, like prostitution, it became a way of flirting with the dark side without going all the way. M/M was generally slightly less accepted, (which is not to say that either where that accepted as a whole), when it wasn't one man showing a form of dominance with another or soldiers away from home for years/decades.
Orgies where another exception, but all in all, there really hasn't been a time when homosexuality was openly accepted by the world, honestly. Even in the more recent centuries, it was seen as better for homosexuals to have fake spouses and hide any "oddities".
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Contributor
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Jessica Price, I have no idea when you became a Paizo staffer, but your posts that I've read lately make me incredibly happy. You rock. :DAw, thanks! I snuck in and sat down at a desk and they haven't noticed yet. ;-)
Jessica, nice interview. Paizo just Facebook posted it. One of my favorite magazines, too.
I wish it was longer, though; I'm also hoping that the Paizo ethos comes across over at the MMO. It would be a great selling point: we aren't jerks and we want you to feel welcome.
Usually in both Roman and especially in "tribal" societies, homoseuality was one of two things. Either it was a form of master/slave relationship, which was the acceptible form, but only under the right conditions, and also really dependant on the timeframe, or it was the modern form or same sex couplings for fun/romance, which was not really accepted, particularly publically.
It was also very different for gender. F/F more typical as many times their husbands would be away for long periods of time, and for the more rich, especially in the later years, like prostitution, it became a way of flirting with the dark side without going all the way. M/M was generally slightly less accepted, (which is not to say that either where that accepted as a whole), when it wasn't one man showing a form of dominance with another or soldiers away from home for years/decades.
Orgies where another exception, but all in all, there really hasn't been a time when homosexuality was openly accepted by the world, honestly. Even in the more recent centuries, it was seen as better for homosexuals to have fake spouses and hide any "oddities".
Paragraphs:
1) That is the point I was trying to make...2) This is better than I could hope to describe...
3) As a whole yes. But some cultures where the exception to this.
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@SuperSlayer: A piece of advice, you might want to stop while you are ahead. That is before you push it to far and actually get someone majorly upset with you.
@Jeff Erwin: I think you and myself would get along well.
And now I want to clean up and Pathfinderize the BoEF to be more towards handling Families and such.
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Jessica Price, I have no idea when you became a Paizo staffer, but your posts that I've read lately make me incredibly happy. You rock. :DAw, thanks! I snuck in and sat down at a desk and they haven't noticed yet. ;-)Jessica, nice interview. Paizo just Facebook posted it. One of my favorite magazines, too.
I wish it was longer, though; I'm also hoping that the Paizo ethos comes across over at the MMO. It would be a great selling point: we aren't jerks and we want you to feel welcome.
Agreed on both points! Awesome article, and awesome sentiment for the MMO. Take a leaf out of GW2's book and wield the banhammer liberally. The community is much, much better without the kind of toxic crap you often see in gaming communities.
Hey Judy, nice of you to stop by.
Agreed on both points! Awesome article, and awesome sentiment for the MMO. Take a leaf out of GW2's book and wield the banhammer liberally. The community is much, much better without the kind of toxic crap you often see in gaming communities.Jessica, nice interview. Paizo just Facebook posted it. One of my favorite magazines, too.
I wish it was longer, though; I'm also hoping that the Paizo ethos comes across over at the MMO. It would be a great selling point: we aren't jerks and we want you to feel welcome.
Thanks, both of you!
It was originally considerably longer, but they had to edit it down considerably for space. Part of what got edited out (and don't get me wrong, I think Lillian did an excellent job editing it) was some of the nuance -- one could come away from reading it with the idea that the industry is primarily staffed with sexist jerks and harassers, and that's not the case -- most guys in the industry are nice guys and decent human beings. But a culture grows up when there are barely any women there (and I was, at one point, one of two women on a 40-person team, the other being someone who pretty much kept to herself and didn't have to interact that much) that is fairly tone-deaf to women.
Some of it is even an attempt to be respectful, but it prevents you from feeling like part of the team. And while you get that there's no hostility behind it, coming in every day and being The Girl gets kind of wearing. Some days you just want to be another team member.
And part of what got edited out for space was just that I genuinely believe Paizo's creative output is better because of the diversity here and the commitment to trying to reach a bigger audience. :-)
Anyway, tangent. Sorry.
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And therein is the problem, Andrew! It's fine to encourage people to be mothers and fathers and craftsmen and farmers. It's not cool (at least, not Good-aligned) to encourage women to be mothers only, and men to be farmers/craftsmen/whatever other influential, active role they like. Do you not understand the difference?I think in many ways mother are the most influential and important role. and it need not be the only role but without bearing and raising children there IS NO society.
I think that an analogy with public health helps to understand how these things play out.
The most important reasons why you and I will live a healthy, long life are that we have cleaning products, we have cleaners, we have refuse collection...
Refuse collection, cleaning toilets, working in a factory which processes bleach... these are not jobs which give people power and influence in a community.
Doctors deal with the marginal, high-risk, transparent health problems. They are the ones who get the power, influence and respect.
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I've thought that as well, but I can see why they don't. Especially with gender diversity. If you want players to be able to game in or come from all your countries, you don't want women to be too oppressed in any of them. It would be hard to even visit for an adventure.
And yet this philosophy isn't really carried through in the setting.
Any attempt at making the athiest philosophy of Rahadoum palatable is refuted, with it being insisted that they are 'really more LE than LN,' and their anti-thiest textual description being widely expanded to an anti-divine-spellcaster (even anti-*atheist* divine spellcaster!) stance that just makes the nation even more unsuitable for use by a much larger swath of classes and roles. I've attempted on several occasions to suggest ways in which various characters and roles could come from Rahadoum, for instance, only to be told that, no, Rahadoum is *less* playable than the text states, and that I shouldn't even try to use the text as justification for a non-theist Adept or non-theist Ranger to be a viable character choice. The goalposts were changed *despite what the text states* to make such options unplayable.
Similarly, a player who has a moral or ethical problem with slavery, and finds a nation that supports slavery to be an uncomfortable or unwelcoming place in which to operate, has quite a few nations barred to them.
And fantasy racism and 'type-ism' not only survives, but thrives, with open support not just of racism, but even of genocide and ethnic cleansing as 'good' behaviors. I kinda think of genocide as even more 'un-good' than having some stodgy and backwards notions about 'traditional gender roles,' but there you have it.
I'm as pleased as punch that there are no mechanics limiting one gender to a certain role (such as the old 'female characters can't have 18/00 Strength scores' notion of a few decades back), but it doesn't seem that there's been a top-down decision to make Golarion 'welcoming' to all kinds of players or characters or playstyles just because of this one example.
And fantasy racism and 'type-ism' not only survives, but thrives, with open support not just of racism, but even of genocide and ethnic cleansing as 'good' behaviors. I kinda think of genocide as even more 'un-good' than having some stodgy and backwards notions about 'traditional gender roles,' but there you have it.
Preach on, brother! Let everybody know!
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Gender roles are very relevent to a conversation about homosexuality too i think. So many of our current trend in what a gay man/ lesbian "is" is partially because of our gender roles. Without our traditional gender roles we probably would not have the gender reversal so common in modern stereotype gays. Gay greek men did not wear skinny jeans and obsess about home decor, i think that is a product of modern gay men rebelling against gender expectations and holding to something see as feminine. Most of what gay folks are in golarion would be vastly different without our notions of gender role
On one hand, you seem to recognize that as a stereotype and call it out as such, but then I think you go on to give it too much credence. The phenomenon you describe exists, but is less prevalent than popular entertainment would have you believe.
This from a gay man who dresses terribly and does not get identified as gay unless I tell somebody.
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And fantasy racism and 'type-ism' not only survives, but thrives, with open support not just of racism, but even of genocide and ethnic cleansing as 'good' behaviors. I kinda think of genocide as even more 'un-good' than having some stodgy and backwards notions about 'traditional gender roles,' but there you have it.Preach on, brother! Let everybody know!
Except goblins. They are totally asking for it.
Especially goblin babies. If the gods didn't mean for us to punt them, they wouldn't have shaped their heads like footballs.