I mentioned this elsewhere but I will restate it here in the Think Tank.
I vote for letting Paladins smite whomever (whoever?/whatever?) they want. I mean if a Paladin is in a situation where he/she is able to Smite (making an attack roll), then the creature probably deserves it. I can certainly see cases where a neutral (and even a good) aligned creature or person may need to be / is worthy of being smited. Non-evilly aligned beings occasionally do evil things. (attacking a Paladin for instance)
If the Paladin uses the ability inappropriately then she/he will be getting a little talking to from the higher powers.
This way you don't have to detect evil before smiting because it wont fail due to the target's alignment, and it makes the ability more usable in a given session. The smite ability can be used when the player feels it is appropriate not when the DM (GM/PM?) puts in the properly aligned opponent.
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Random brainstorming rather than in-depth thought process:
Smite Evil (Su): Per opponent, rather than melee attack.
*Swarms, composite beings like Kyuss and others would still be effectively a single target even though comprised of multiple entities to make the one opponent. A horde of Zombies, however, is not a swarm or a composite being, so the smite would only be in effect for one of the zombies, but not the group as a whole.
Lay on Hands (Su): The paladin is able to "push" the total amount of HP healed or damage caused by channelling his own life force into the target at a one for one exchange.
As per the first line posted - these are random thoughts. I haven't played them, haven't evaluated them against the bloodlines of a Sorcerer, or the impact with a CR 10 fight, etc. so I'm not entirely sure of the balance of these options. I feel that smiting really isn't all its cracked up to be, no matter how many times per day you get to do it, so I'd rather see the effect of the smite elongated as opposed to increasing the number available. At first, I thought about a time duration, but I felt that was too complicated, and really just mimicked a barbarian's raging, so I think having the smite continue against a specific target both added a little more "umph" to the ability as well as enable a little dramatic license. (Maybe a little too comic-booky, but what can I say - it was free comic book day yesterday and I've been in 4-color heaven ever since.)
As to lay on hands, I'm not satisfied with the amount of the heals. I'd like to see cure spells exit the paladin's repetoire and have them go to more offensive options, so I thought a little more umph would do well there. Also helps ease the bite of a paladin needing to have multiple high stats in order to be effective. If we can't go Cha-based for spells, maybe reducing the necessity of abnormally high Cha will help. This could also be restricted to a feat that the paladin needs to take; ie NOBLE HEART - enables the paladin to "push" ... as opposed to just an increase to the current Lay on Hands
Random brainstorming rather than in-depth thought process:
Smite Evil (Su): Per opponent, rather than melee attack.
On first glance, I really like this idea.... except that at higher levels, smite evil is extremely potent. Adding the paladins level to damage for the duration of an entire fight against a really tough monster for a 15+ paladin would be pretty extreme, considering multiple attacks. I still like the idea, it makes more sense, but I think you need to nerf Smite if you do this.
Lay on Hands (Su): The paladin is able to "push" the total amount of HP healed or damage caused by channeling his own life force into the target at a one for one exchange.
** spoiler omitted **
As per the first line posted - these are random...
I also really like this idea, however it reminds me quite abit of a necromancy type of feel to it... something a Paladin would not be likely to be dabbling with. For mechanics I think it would work reasonably well, but flavor-wise it seems out of place.
I'd like to see Detect Evil revamped to help the paladin be less of a "Detect-Thump" class. I don't know how to do this without weakening Detect Evil (which is too generic and lacking thought for me anyway) and would indicate that the Paladin receive another ability in compensation.
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Random brainstorming rather than in-depth thought process:
Smite Evil (Su): Per opponent, rather than melee attack.
On first glance, I really like this idea.... except that at higher levels, smite evil is extremely potent. Adding the paladins level to damage for the duration of an entire fight against a really tough monster for a 15+ paladin would be pretty extreme, considering multiple attacks. I still like the idea, it makes more sense, but I think you need to nerf Smite if you do this.
Awesome! Unfortunately for me, I'm like Mr. Owl in the tootsie pop commercials - never made it that far (lol). Yeah - I didn't extend it out to level 20. Just wanted to get these out of the nugget before CRS (can't remember stuff) hit in. Bane of being a geezer ...
An idea I had for the Divine Bond weapon, also posted elsewhere:
At 5th level, a paladin can bond a celestial spirit into a masterwork example of his or her deity's chosen weapon. The weapon gains a +1 enhancement bonus, is good-aligned and lawful-aligned for the purposes of overcoming DR, and can shed light as a torch at will (let's face it, light is a dime a dozen ability, especially now that wizards, clerics, etc. can easily cast it at will). The enhancement bonus can be increased normally through traditional means.
In addition, the weapon gains a +1 bonus that can be used to apply weapon properties, as a standard action, for a specified duration (be it so many times per day, so many turns, or whatever else is decided). For every three levels beyond 5th, the weapon gains another +1 bonus, to a maximum of +6 at 20th level.
The result is a permanent symbol of the divine bond between a paladin and his or her deity, but with only some of its abilities available at all times; the weapon properties still have to invoked to be effective. Conceptually, it seems to fit better. Mechanically, not much has changed.
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Okay – let’s try this:
Smite Evil (Su):
At 4th level, and every three levels thereafter, the paladin may smite evil one additional time per day, as indicated on table 4-6, to a maximum of seven times per day at 19th level.
I think this will help give the paladin more smitey goodness, but at the same time not be ridiculously overpowered. I like having the paladin have to decide whether or not to accept the more dependable damage production of the smite attack as opposed to the “crap shoot” of a full-out combat attack:
Level 20 paladin using a greatsword, assuming all attacks hit and no bonuses:
- Min Damage Smite / FoCA: 22 points / 8 points
- AVG Damage Smite / FoCA: 27 points / 28 points
- Max Damage Smite / FoCA: 32 points / 48 points
With this in place, I’d be considering reducing the number of smites a day to 4-ish. That helps balance the use of the smite (not doing it every encounter) while also keeping the “heroic flavor” of the smite intact.
Comments?
Lay on hands, in addition to curing hp damage, should be able to remove conditions by "spending" more hp worth of daily healing: e.g., lesser restoration (costs 6 hp worth of healing), remove disease (costs 9 hp worth of healing; replaces "remove disease x/day" class feature), remove blindness or deafness (costs 9 hp worth of healing), neutralize poison (costs 12 hp worth of healing), restoration (12 hp), etc.
Ah Kirth, I liked your idea when I first heard it. This was what I wrote up for it, although instead of Lay Hands I used the Paladin's Remove Disease ability:
Remove Malady (Sp): At 7th level, a paladin can produce a remove disease effect, as the spell, once per day. As the paladin gains level, she may remove additional maladies as follows. At 9th level, a paladin can negate blindness/deafness with a use of remove malady. At 11th level the paladin can neutralize poison with a use of remove malady. At 13th level, the paladin can use Lesser Restoration with a use of remove malady. At 15th level, a paladin can negate a negative level with a use of remove malady.
This ability can be used one additional time per day for every three levels after 7th (twice per day at 10th, three times at 13th, four times at 16th, and five times at 19th+ level).
Note that none of these abilities overlap: If there's no disease in an adventure, the paladin can use this ability for other things that might come up - all of them condition problems.
And,I'll say it again. I'd like to see the Paladin's Smite be 1d6 per 2-3 levels. Fixed damage isn't as exciting as rolling dice, or we'd all do fixed damage with our weapon attacks.
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And,I'll say it again. I'd like to see the Paladin's Smite be 1d6 per 2-3 levels. Fixed damage isn't as exciting as rolling dice, or we'd all do fixed damage with our weapon attacks.
If this is the chosen route, I'd imagine something smaller - say 1d4. Make it where each time you gain a Smite you also gain an additional d4 of damage, up to a total of 7d4 and 7 smites a day under the currently proposed paladin advancement. At level 20 you'd be looking at 7-28 points of additional damage from the smite, a reasonable solution in my mind. I'm still more inclined to a longer duration for the smite however, but I can also live with this.
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Another untested idea but maybe have the smite last for Charisma mod rounds or until it hits, whichever comes first? That would solve the major problem I have with smites: That they miss. Given it currently only lasts for one round, a smite is quite underpowered as at low levels one bad roll can screw you up completely. At the same time it wouldn't make smites more powered than they are now as it still only does its bonus damage for one attack sequence.
The damage as a die is also a nice idea, again especially at low levels. d4 holy damage for a smite does sound about right and would keep it roughly in the same damage range as now if it increases as tigerdave suggests.
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Smite Evil is good at high levels, not so good at low levels.
Why not improve it slightly by adding a flat bonus to any smite attempt.
Smite Evil
The paladin adds his charisma bonus to his attack roll. The paladin adds 5 + paladin level to his damage roll.
At low levels, an extra 5 damage is pretty sweet. At high levels, it is almost meaningless, thus fixing the problem.
I think a Paladins spell casting should be changed to Cha Based and even make it spontanious so they dont have to rely on Wis because they already need so many other stats
If a Paladin is smiting a non-evil enemy ,i would almost have to question his motive in the first place. Do paladins fight that many good opponents?
I don't look at it as a matter of how many "good" opponents a paladin fights, but how many non-evil opponents may fight a paladin. As I said, non-evil creatures occasionally do evil things, for which a paladin may need to smite them.
If a Paladin is smiting a non-evil enemy ,i would almost have to question his motive in the first place. Do paladins fight that many good opponents?
Not that i favor Smite Evil being turned into Smite Everyone, but you do realize that an opponent not being evil isn't the same as an opponent being good?
A paladin gets to fight as many neutral animals, plants and magical beasts as the next guy.
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My major concern with the PFRPG version of the paladin is that it's just adding (IMO) more bells and whistles to a sub-par class without fixing the problems at the root of the design. I think that if the PF paladin is going to be a strong class, it needs a few fundimental revisions.
1) Turn Undead/Positive Energy Channel: Using this ability at 3 levels lower than a cleric of the same level means that the paladin is unlikely to have much effect on anything but mook-level foes. That is partially why (again IMO) the idea of divine feats were invented (the ones that use up turn attempts to do other things). Why not change channel positive energy to allow the paladin to power some of his other class features like auras or lay on hands? Make it work like rage points. Details will rattle from brain to keyboard as I think on it more.
2) Spellcasting: The number of spells a paladin gets are not sufficient to be of much use. A better approach using an already established mechanic would be to allow the paladin one or two domains selected at level one and allow no other caster ability. They could select from a limited list (say Law, Good, Healing, War, Glory, Protection and Nobility for sake of arguement).
3) Smite Evil: So far, it's just the same as 3.5. I don't think that the hit/damage/frequency balance is right compared to the rage ability. Either increase the hit/damage bonus significantly (+ level to hit and automatically does double damage) or increase the number of smites allowed (I'd make it per encounter or allow extras based on Cha bonus).
I suppose what I'm saying is that (also IMO) the changes to the paladin class should be more fundimental and not just window dressing. A paladin should be able to use his abilities in a meaningful way that truly contributes to the party, not just filling a space on the tactical grid. This class is one of great icons of fantasy and myth and deserves to be treated as more than the fighter or cleric's poor cousin.
I think that Detect Evil (both the spell and the power) should be a bonus on Sense Motive checks versus evil creatures. Perhaps a +1 bonus/class level. It can be opposed by Bluff which makes it not such a plot killer. If evil is successfully determined, the strength of the aura can then be discerned with continued scrutiny.
Random brainstorming rather than in-depth thought process:
Smite Evil (Su): Per opponent, rather than melee attack.
On first glance, I really like this idea.... except that at higher levels, smite evil is extremely potent. Adding the paladins level to damage for the duration of an entire fight against a really tough monster for a 15+ paladin would be pretty extreme, considering multiple attacks. I still like the idea, it makes more sense, but I think you need to nerf Smite if you do this.
Awesome! Unfortunately for me, I'm like Mr. Owl in the tootsie pop commercials - never made it that far (lol). Yeah - I didn't extend it out to level 20. Just wanted to get these out of the nugget before CRS (can't remember stuff) hit in. Bane of being a geezer ...
I really like the idea of having the Smite effect stick around for a while. It almost turns Smite Evil into an ongoing battlefield vow rather than a single blow. Would something like this work?
Smite Evil (Su): Once per day, a paladin may attempt to smite evil as a free action by targeting an adjacent foe. If the paladin accidentally targets a creature with this ability that is not evil, the smite has no effect, but that use of the ability is still considered spent for that day.
As long as the paladin continues to engage, or tries to engage the targeted creature she adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack roll and deals 3 points of (stackable) divine damage. The Smite Evil effect will cease at the end of the turn if one of these conditions is met:
- The paladin is unconcious.
- The targeted creature is unconcious.
- The paladin is reduced to negative hit points.
- The targeted creature is reduced to negative hit points.
- If able to do so, the paladin does not either move towards or attack the targeted creature.
At later levels, the paladin gains additional uses per day of Smite Evil. When a paladin has more than one daily use of Smite Evil remaining she may declare multiple uses targeting the same creature, all declared simultaneously as the same free action. The Charisma bonus to the attack roll does not stack, but the divine damage bonus does. As a free action in later rounds, the paladin may add in an additional Smite Evil to one that is already active.
Example: Elessia, a female paladin with a Charisma bonus of +4, has three daily uses of Smite Evil. She targets a succubus with two of her daily Smite Evils. She therefore hits the succubus with a bonus to her attack roll of +4, but does +6 points of divine damage when she hits. Later in the fight against the succubus, which isn't going so well, Elessia decides to add her final Smite Evil attempt in, determined to finish the fight for the glory of her deity. The bonus to the attack roll is still only +4, but the divine damage bonus is now +9.
The rules for 'being able to do so' might need tweaking. If a winged opponent suddenly flies up, leaving the paladin on the ground then the paladin should IMHO be able keep the Smite Evil attempts active.
For what it's worth, at 20th level the total divine damage bonus (from 7 Smites all declared against the same target) would be 21, almost the same as the damage bonus from a single traditional level 20 smite.
Just an idea, that's all.
Chobbly
Two things I'd like to propose:
1 - Alternate to Spellcasting: I'd like to see an option for those who don't want Paladins (and Rangers) casting spells.
2 - Special Mount: instead of making it an "Animal with adjusted stats", I'd like to see it get fixed stats, regardless of its shape (so a Special Mount that looks like a warhorse has the same stats as one that looks like a dire lion). Make it a celestial spirit (just like the one that bonds to a weapon) that takes the shape of the animal most appropriate to the character. If the Special Mount's hp drop to 0, the spirit dissolves back to its home plane, and takes 30 days to recover (instead of the paladin calling another one, he calls the same spirit, either to bond with a weapon or to shape into a mount).
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We were discussing the paladin abilities and “smite points” on another thread, but since this is a “brainstorming” thread, I thought to repost some ideas here, too. The main idea would be to build paladin with powers to similar to the barbarian. These powers would work with Faith/Divine Points (i.e. “smite points” ;).
This is my "upgraded" version of Shekaka's wonderful list from that thread. I *did* remove some of the powers I felt were not thematically or mechanically fitting to the paladin, and I have also added some powers and auras of my own, too, and I have modified some of the power descriptions and some names a bit.
I would separate three categories of paladin abilities: Auras, Smite “upgrades” and other class features (such as Divine Grace and Divine Bond). Paladin must choose his Smite and Aura powers as he progresses in levels. These abilities replace the paladin’s spellcasting abilities. You could only activate and maintain a single active Aura at a time with Faith Points, but "switching" between Auras would be a swift action? And, naturally, there would be level prerequisites for all Auras. Your Smite would automatically "upgrade" either with levels (you would inflict more damage and bypass DR more easier) and/or there could be additional effects you could spend Faith Points on (e.g. Stunning Smite, Healing Smite, etc.). I hope these ideas will inspire some discussion and feedback.
NOTE: All the paladin abilities in PF Alpha 2 should also be included in this list (so these "powers" are not supposed to replace them). In addition to this, I removed any references to “Divine Mana”, because I feel that’s a bit misleading concept. Also, I haven’t (yet) compared the point cost to the barbarian’s list, so I’m not sure if most powers costing 10-15 points would be a bit too much?
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Starting at 1st level, a Paladin gains a number of Faith Points equal to 4 + his Charisma modifier. At each level after 1st, he gains an additional number of Divine Mana points equal to 2 + his Charisma modifier. These points are restored at the rate of 1*your paladin level per hour (e.g. 10 Faith Points/hour for a 10th level paladin).
FAITH POWERS:
As the paladin gains experience, he learns to channel his divine abilities in new ways. Starting at 2nd level, the paladin gains one Faith Power. He gains an additional Faith Power for every two levels of paladin attained after 2nd level. The paladin cannot select an individual Faith Power more than once. Unless otherwise noted, these abilities are free actions that must be performed on your turn. The paladin counts as his own ally for all purposes of these powers.
Shield Other ( Su): For 1 round + 1 round per point of his Charisma modifier the paladin may create an effect similar to the cleric spell Shield Other . This gives a +2 deflection bonus to an ally within 10 feet. (5 points)
Divine Reflexes ( Su): The paladin gains a dodge bonus to his armor class equal to 1/2 his Paladin level (rounded down) for one round + 1 round per his Charisma Bonus Modifier against melee attacks. (10 points)
Divine Shield (Su): The paladin gains a sacred bonus to his armor class equal to ½ his paladin level (rounded down) for one round + 1 round per his Charisma Bonus Modifier. The paladin must be wearing a shield to use this power. This bonus stacks with any enhancement or armor bonus the shield already has. (10 points)
Divine Persistence (Su): The paladin may re-roll a failed saving throw. This power is used as an immediate action after the saving throw is failed. The paladin must take the second result, even if it is worse than the first result. The paladin must be at least 8th level before selecting this power. (10 points)
Divine Presence (Su): The paladin may add +4 Sacred Bonus to all his Diplomacy, Bluff and Intimidate checks for the duration of one round + 1 round per his Charisma Bonus Modifier. In addition to this, for the duration of the effect, the paladin may use any Diplomacy, Bluff and Intimidate skill check as a Swift Action. (5 points)
Divine Resistance( Su): For the duration of one round , the paladin gains Resistance 10 against any chosen energy type ( electricity, fire, cold, acid or sonic) per 5 Divine Mana points spent. The paladin cannot increase this beyond 30 resistance. A paladin must be at least 12th level before selecting this ability. ( 5, 10, or 15 points)
Divine Might ( Su): For the duration of one round the paladin may add his Charisma modifier to his hit and damage rolls. ( 5 Points )
Divine Glory ( Su): As a standard action, the paladin can unleash a burst of radiant divine energy that dazes all evil beings within 30 feet radius who fail their Will saving throw versus DC 10 + ½ the paladin’s level + the paladin’s Charisma Modifier. This duration of this effect lasts for one round plus 1 round per the paladin’s Charisma Modifier (if any). Whether this saving throw was successful or not, each enemy caught within the burst is immune to this power for 24 hours. A Paladin must be at least 12th level before selecting this power and he must have taken Stunning Smite. (15 points)
Divine Vigor ( Su ): The paladin may invoke this power to gain 3 temporary hit points per Faith Point spent up to the maximum number of points equal to his level. All damage to the paladin is first These hit points last until duration of these temporary hit points is one round + 1 round per his Charisma Modifier. ( Up to the maximum of 1 point per paladin level )
Mirror of Penance ( Su): The paladin chooses one adjacent evil and intelligent foe and as a free action can make an Intimidate check against him. If the Paladin successfully demoralizes his enemy, the foe is shaken for 2d6 rounds due to seeing a reflection of its own evil soul in the paladin’s eyes. (10 points)
Blessed Strike (Su): The paladin automatically confirms a critical hit on an evil enemy. This power is used as a swift action once a critical threat has been determined. A Paladin must be at least 8th level before selecting this power. (10 points)
Sacrifice of the Martyr ( Su): The paladin uses this power to protect an ally within 20 feet by taking half of all damage the chosen ally receives for 1 round. The paladin may not take this power until he reaches 8th level. ( 15 Points )
Sacred Mantle ( Su ): The paladin gains SR = 12 + Paladin Level for 1 round versus all spells or spell-like abilities from evil casters. This power may be activated as a swift action. The Paladin may not take this until 12th level. ( 15 points )
Hand of Glory ( Su): This power allows the paladin to touch an ally to restore 1d4 ability damage as per Lesser Restoration. This power may not be taken until 8th level. ( 10 points)
Divine Touch ( Su): To choose this power the Paladin must first have taken the Hand of Glory power. This power allows the paladin to touch an ally which functions as the Restoration spell. ( 15 points )
Sacred Vow (Su): The paladin may swear a sacred vow to his deity that he is going to defeat a certain enemy in combat. The paladin receives +2 morale bonus to all his attacks, damage and saving throws against this enemy for the number of rounds equal to one round + 1 round per his Charisma Modifier Bonus (if any). If the paladin fails to defeat that foe during this time, he immediately receives -2 to all rolls for the next 24 hours (the paladin must must deal the final blow to that enemy). (5 points)
Vengeful Smite ( Su): All of the Paladin’s attacks deal an additional 1d6 points of sacred damage against evil enemies for one round. This damage stacks with any sacred or holy damage dealt by special weapon abilities even if it is the same type. This power is used as a swift action before any attacks are made. A Paladin must be 12th level before selecting this power.(15 points)
Smite Infidel (Su): The paladin may smite any being who is not a worshipper of his or her deity. A paladin must be 8th level before selecting this power. (10 points)
Healing Smite (Su): When the paladin smites, he heals hit point damage equal to half the damage his smite inflicts on the target creature. The paladin must be 4th level before selecting this power. (10 points)
Martyr’s Smite (Su): As he smites, the paladin may sacrifice any number of hit points to gain extra damage dice for this attack. For every 5 hit points he sacrifices this way, he may roll an additional +1d6 sacred damage. The paladin must declare that he is using this ability before he attacks. The paladin must be 12th level before taking this power. (15 points)
Stunning Smite (Su): As he smites, the paladin channels divine energy through his weapon, stunning his enemy for 1d4+1 rounds unless he succeeds in a Will saving throw versus DC 10 + ½ the paladin’s level + the paladin’s Charisma Modifier. Even if this saving throw is successful, the enemy is dazed for one round.
Glorious Smite (Su): As he smites, the paladin may also Channel Positive Energy through his weapon, healing all allies and damaging all evil undead in a 30 feet radius. Using this power also uses up one of his Turn Undead attempts for the day (if he hasn’t any left, he cannot use this power). The paladin must be 16th level before taking this power, and he must have taken Vengeful Smite. (20 points)
Banishing Smite (Su): As he smites, the paladin may choose not to do any damage to the target enemy. Instead, that enemy is targeted as per the Banishment spell with the paladin’s character level as the caster level. The paladin must be 16th level before taking this power. (20 points)
Relentless Smite (Su): The paladin may smite two adjacent opponents that are both within reach. Each attack is rolled separately. If he hits them both, damage is divided equally (round down) between them. The paladin must be 8th level before taking this power. (10 points)
Explosive Smite (Su): As the paladin smites, divine energy leaps from his weapon to strike enemies within 30 feet radius. If his smite attack hits, half of the smite damage is inflicted on the target (rounded down), and all the other enemies within 30 feet burst each receive half. The paladin must be 12th level before taking this power, and he must have taken Relentless Smite. (15 points)
Celestial Smite (Su): As he smites, the paladin channels all his current divine energy into a single but ultimately powerful attack. He may double his paladin level to damage. He cannot smite again for 5 rounds. The paladin must be 12th level before taking this power , and he must have taken Relentless Smite. (20 points)
Aura of Blessing (Su): The paladin uses this power to bolster the saving throws and attacks of all allies within 10 feet radius. This effect is identical to the Bless spell, with the paladin’s character level as the caster level. (5 points per round)
Aura of Consecration (Su): All evil enemies within 10 feet radius of the paladin receive -1 morale penalty to their attack rolls again the paladin’s allies. (5 points per round)
Aura of Light (Su): The paladin sheds light as a Daylight spell within 10 feet radius, and all beings vulnerable to daylight are affected as per the spell. (5 points per round)
Aura of Protection (Su): The paladin may use this power to grant +2 sacred bonus on all saving throws to all his allies within 10 feet radius. (5 points per round)
Aura of Vitality (Su): The paladin may use this power to grant Fast Healing 1 to all his allies within 10 feet radius. The paladin must be 4th level before taking this power. (5 points per round)
Aura of Shielding (Su): The paladin may use this power to grant +2 sacred bonus on AC to all his allies within 10 feet radius. The paladin must be 4th level before taking this power. (10 points per round)
Aura of Vengeance (Su): Any melee attacks against the paladin that deal damage inflict 1d6 sacred damage to whoever attacked the paladin, if that being is within 10 feet radius of the paladin. The paladin must be 8th level before taking this power. (10 points per round)
Aura of Truth (Su): All allies within 10 feet radius of the paladin receive the benefits of True Seeing. The paladin must be 16th level before taking this power. (20 points per round)
Aura of the Martyr (Su): The paladin uses this power to protect all allies within 20 feet by taking half of all damage they receive. The paladin may not take this power until he reaches 12th level and he must have taken Sacrifice of the Martyr. (10 points per round)
The main idea would be to build paladin with powers to similar to the barbarian. These powers would work with Faith/Divine Points (i.e. “smite points” ;)
And they'd work just as well if they were written up as paladin spells, or as feats for that matter. The latter 2 options require more writeups, but don't alter any core mechanics, so it's a toss-up. Still, it seems like people hate paladin spells because they're for the most part useless. These would certainly add some interest to that (especially if paladins were spontaneous divine casters with charisma as the base casting stat -- then they'd get LOTS of use).
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And they'd work just as well if they were written up as paladin spells, or as feats for that matter. The latter 2 options require more writeups, but don't alter any core mechanics, so it's a toss-up. Still, it seems like people hate paladin spells because they're for the most part useless. These would certainly add some interest to that (especially if paladins were spontaneous divine casters with charisma as the base casting stat -- then they'd get LOTS of use).
I'd be more inclined to go spells as opposed to faith points, as Kirth noted. While the rage mechanic is good, I don't think it needs to be the paladin mechanic too. Remember that we're supposed to have some sort of backwards compatability, so adding more robust, flavorful spells to the Pally repetoire would be most welcome by any player.
I also HEARTILY agree with Paladins as spontaneous CHA casters. As I've said before, my interpretation is that paladins are creatures of strong emotions. Laws never made anyone stand up to a potentially unwinnable fight, but love and compassion inspire that all the time. I rather see the code, and the lawfulness of paladinhood more about keeping them on the straight and narrow as opposed to empowering them anyways.
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Laws never made anyone stand up to a potentially unwinnable fight, but love and compassion inspire that all the time.
That is gold! If the paladin class can be built around that single sentence, then I think we could have a winner!
The elimination of Wisdom as the base for paladin spells would go a long way to reduce the class MAD too. They would depend more on their strength of character and empathy rather than intuition and perception.
Still not a big supporter of caster paladins though. Making the class worth playing/playable by replacing the weak mechanics of early 3.0 design is more important to me than backwards compatability. To heck with backwards compatability. To heck, I say! :)
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And they'd work just as well if they were written up as paladin spells, or as feats for that matter. The latter 2 options require more writeups, but don't alter any core mechanics, so it's a toss-up. Still, it seems like people hate paladin spells because they're for the most part useless. These would certainly add some interest to that (especially if paladins were spontaneous divine casters with charisma as the base casting stat -- then they'd get LOTS of use).I'd be more inclined to go spells as opposed to faith points, as Kirth noted. While the rage mechanic is good, I don't think it needs to be the paladin mechanic too. Remember that we're supposed to have some sort of backwards compatability, so adding more robust, flavorful spells to the Pally repetoire would be most welcome by any player.
I also HEARTILY agree with Paladins as spontaneous CHA casters. As I've said before, my interpretation is that paladins are creatures of strong emotions. Laws never made anyone stand up to a potentially unwinnable fight, but love and compassion inspire that all the time. I rather see the code, and the lawfulness of paladinhood more about keeping them on the straight and narrow as opposed to empowering them anyways.
I'll be thoroughly disappointed if paladins don't at least become spontaneous casters in PF. However, the reason why I'd like to see the paladin operating with Faith Points is mainly consistency and game balance. First of all, why would one only class (the barbarian) function with "power points", while the rest of the classes use slots or once/X type of system? Makes no sense to me. And then there's the question of balance... if the barbarian is able to ramp up his BAB, damage and AC by seriously wacky numbers at high levels, why not the paladin, ranger and *especially* the fighter? At the moment it seems that if I want to play the coolest and most powerful character in melee, I'll create a barbarian -- no sense in playing a fighter, at least from a power-gamer's perspective. I'd rather see the barbarian returning to once/X system than being the only class with access to powers that scale with your level and operate via these points.
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<snippage>... the reason why I'd like to see the paladin operating with Faith Points is mainly consistency and game balance...<snippage>
Well, I certainly want to see abilities and the like scale on up with the rest, however, I don't personally care for rage points as a mechanic. I think the concept is cool, but I fail to understand the format and I certainly don't desire to be managing >150 points of anything at any level. I'd much prefer the paladin engine (and lets be honest, that's what we're discussing here - what mechanic provides the paladin's ability to deliver it's class-specific actions to the battlefield) be tied to channeling positive energy/whatever than having points. In the end, if its points, or spells, talents or channels I don't really care as long as the paladin has something worthwhile to bring to the fight, and not just something that was second-hand. We've kept the difficulty of high stats to be a paladin in 3d edition and dumped anything that could be interpreted as effective. I'd like to see the class be something that, when I sit down at the table and the other players ask what character I'm playing and say paladin, they're saying "oh sweet!"
As an aside, I've heard it mentioned on several occasions that paladins are class most likely to be disruptive when played by a certain mindset, and I am sorry about that, but no amount of rules is going to eliminate that. However, if the paladin is such a problematic class I'd rather see it shelved than become some scab class just because the design team felt it necessary for legacy's sake. Mind you, I've pretty much played paladins exclusively since 1979, with a side forray into a bard for a few months.
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Well, I certainly want to see abilities and the like scale on up with the rest, however, I don't personally care for rage points as a mechanic. I think the concept is cool, but I fail to understand the format and I certainly don't desire to be managing >150 points of anything at any level. I'd much prefer the paladin engine (and lets be honest, that's what we're discussing here - what mechanic provides the paladin's ability to deliver it's class-specific actions to the battlefield) be tied to channeling positive energy/whatever than having points. In the end, if its points, or spells, talents or channels I don't really care as long as the paladin has something worthwhile to bring to the fight, and not just something that was second-hand. We've kept the difficulty of high stats to be a paladin in 3d edition and dumped anything that could be interpreted as effective. I'd like to see the class be something that, when I sit down at the table and the other players ask what character I'm playing and say paladin, they're saying "oh sweet!"
As an aside, I've heard it mentioned on several occasions that paladins are class most likely to be disruptive when played by a certain mindset, and I am sorry about that, but no amount of rules is going to eliminate that. However, if the paladin is such a problematic class I'd rather see it shelved than become some scab class just because the design team felt it necessary for legacy's sake. Mind you, I've pretty much played paladins exclusively since 1979, with a side forray into a bard for a few months.
You do manage, at least sometimes, 150+ HPs, right? And is it too complex a mechanic, that we should get rid of? And the main reason I'm advocating this mechanic is that I feel the Paladin spells are harder to manage than Faith Points, really. I'm not seeing the Paladin being a class that the players can "abuse". And the DR system in 3.5 is one of the things that made paladins feel "powerless" as they often had to carry around a lot of weapons to make sure that they can "punch through" the various DRs of undead, demons and devils. If you can "upgrade" your attacks/Smites through various abilities -- that's what I'm after here. Personally, I don't see this system complicating "backwards compatibility" too much -- if I could "convert" NPCs to work with Spell Points pretty much on the fly (the UA "variant" system), how much harder would be it with Paladins? Or barbarians?
I'd like to see some more work on the paladin myself. As it stands they're highly suboptimal (not unique to pathfinder, in 3/3.5e they suck too).
Smite Evil. Compare it to Sneak Attack and you'll see what a joke it is. Oh good, a couple times a day I get a minimal to hit bonus and a minimal damage bonus. SA = all the time, and more damage bonus. If you're going to make the pally smite so #/day limited, you should make it much butcher - let's say that when you make a smite attack, it works like when a cleric channels positive energy but on any evil creature you hit. Damage +1d6 + 1d6/2 levels and fright. (Although the "fleeing" part of fright is one of the lamest 3.5e things, a shaken penalty or something would be better).
Spellcasting. There's minimal spellcasting and then there's minimal spellcasting. At level 12, a third level spell is pretty much a joke. Comparing paladins to the new sorcerer - the sorc only loses about a CL on the wizard and gets all the bloodline "kewl powerz" plus spont casting. The pally's fight is better than the sorc's of course, but so they should only get docked a little more - call it 3-4 levels - and not so totally crippled.
Let's say pally casting = cleric casting at level -4, so they'd never get L9 spells. If a cleric chooses p-classes etc. sufficient to give up 4 CLs they can get pally level fight/toughness and more.
I'd like to see some more work on the paladin myself. As it stands they're highly suboptimal (not unique to pathfinder, in 3/3.5e they suck too).
Smite Evil. Compare it to Sneak Attack and you'll see what a joke it is. Oh good, a couple times a day I get a minimal to hit bonus and a minimal damage bonus. SA = all the time, and more damage bonus. If you're going to make the pally smite so #/day limited, you should make it much butcher - let's say that when you make a smite attack, it works like when a cleric channels positive energy but on any evil creature you hit. Damage +1d6 + 1d6/2 levels and fright. (Although the "fleeing" part of fright is one of the lamest 3.5e things, a shaken penalty or something would be better).
Spellcasting. There's minimal spellcasting and then there's minimal spellcasting. At level 12, a third level spell is pretty much a joke. Comparing paladins to the new sorcerer - the sorc only loses about a CL on the wizard and gets all the bloodline "kewl powerz" plus spont casting. The pally's fight is better than the sorc's of course, but so they should only get docked a little more - call it 3-4 levels - and not so totally crippled.
Let's say pally casting = cleric casting at level -4, so they'd never get L9 spells. If a cleric chooses p-classes etc. sufficient to give up 4 CLs they can get pally level fight/toughness and more.
I don't have an axe to grind on whether paladins have spells or not - I've played both more than once and am happy with either. To be honest, most of the time I prefer the divine style feats as I feel they're a bit more flavourful. I would play a paladin without spells readily - probably the only spells I would ever miss are Restoration, Lesser and Zone of Truth.
If the spells stay though, I agree that one way of increasing their usefulness without changing the spell list is to make them spontaneous. The spell levels wouldn't have to change. It would make the paladin fall somewhere between the Cleric and the Favoured Soul class from Complete Divine, which kind of feels right, y'know?
Chobbly
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My idea all along was to remove spells altogether thus making Wisdom wholely less important and undoing much of the MAD syndrome.
In place of spells the class becomes more martial, and instead of spells or Lay on Hands working as they are listed, have the Lay On Hands act like a Malady remover (as was detailed in my paladin variant I posted on another thread); which worked similar to the barbarian rage points: the more difficult/powerful the malady is that was being removed - the more lay on hand ("Curing points") it cost to remove it. (I provided a thorough list).
Also for Smite Evil - how about:
Smite Evil activates for a number of rounds equal to CHA mod (minimum one round - so that someone with an 11 CHA can still do the extra damage based on Pal-level.
Without WIS as a wholey important stat, it would increase the liklihood of a great CHA score (especially on those 28 point buy builds), and then Smite Evil would do something like +4 to attacks and
+ paladin level to damage for 4 rounds.
Finally Turn Undead can be used to activate certain effects: such as turning weapons in an area effect Lawful or Good for overcoming Damage Reduc.
Robert
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Spell Trigger rules are often misinterpreted or conveniently forgotten.
Better combat-oriented Paladin spells and an optional alternate non-spellcasting paladin training path would solve much of the problems with paladin spellcasting. Spells should remain Wisdom-based because that is the ability score that determines strength of faith. What deity would grant the divine privilege and power of miracles to an easily swayed loudmouth? (low Wis, high Cha)
I for one hadn't forgotten; it was by design. More combat-oriented and more martial - and less focus on divine spells and god-related.
More inner-strength and charisma based and focused on his own principles and convictions of honor and chivalry and righteousness.
Robert
The monk gets ki strike ability - magic, lawful and adamantine.
Why doesn't the paladin get an ability at say 9th to make all his attack "Good"-aligned?
My idea all along was to remove spells altogether thus making Wisdom wholely less important and undoing much of the MAD syndrome.
In place of spells the class becomes more martial, and instead of spells or Lay on Hands working as they are listed, have the Lay On Hands act like a Malady remover (as was detailed in my paladin variant I posted on another thread); which worked similar to the barbarian rage points: the more difficult/powerful the malady is that was being removed - the more lay on hand ("Curing points") it cost to remove it. (I provided a thorough list).
Using Lay on Hands points to remove maladies, that's a great alternate way to use Lay on Hands. The only question is though, with the paladin still having remove disease does the ability to heal damage, maladies and diseases make the paladin a better healer than a cleric? Should such an option (and maybe even the remove disease) be part of a 'hospitalier' style prestige class, available to paladins and clerics only? Just asking the question, I'm not sure of the answer.
As an aside, I've always found the paladin having access to the Restoration, Lesser spell really useful. I don't see why this couldn't be folded into Lay On Hands as an alternate use.
Also for Smite Evil - how about:
Smite Evil activates for a number of rounds equal to CHA mod (minimum one round - so that someone with an 11 CHA can still do the extra damage based on Pal-level.
Without WIS as a wholey important stat, it would increase the liklihood of a great CHA score (especially on those 28 point buy builds), and then Smite Evil would do something like +4 to attacks and
+ paladin level to damage for 4 rounds.
I agree, and having the Smite last a few rounds distances it a little bit from the rogue's Sneak Attack. If it was me, I'd be tempted to make the duration equal to the base charisma modifier (otherwise taking the Eagle's Splendor spell at every available opportunity would be mandatory, even cross-classing into cleric essential maybe) or give it a maximum top-end, say +5 for five rounds.
Alternatively, you could dump the x/day for Smite Evil, and change it to x/rounds, and allow the paladin to smite evil once per encounter for a number of rounds equal to the x. Any existing feats that increased the number of times that smite evil could be used each day could instead increase the number of rounds that the smite was active in any one encounter. It would allow a benefit from having a high charisma modifier (on to-hit), the duration of the smite (from the x/rounds) and on how much damage the paladin can hit with (the paladin's level). This seems balanced, and even boosting the charisma modifier to the maximum won't affect how long the smite lasts or the additional damage inflicted.
Just in case I appear too argumentative (!), your way's great too though. I just think capping it a little could prevent over-the-top builds.
Finally Turn Undead can be used to activate certain effects: such as turning weapons in an area effect Lawful or Good for overcoming Damage Reduc.
I suppose you could re-use Aura of Good in that way - spend a turn undead attempt (or rather, channel) to make all allies weapons good-aligned within the area of the paladin's Aura of Good for a number of minutes equal to the paladin's level, or something. The paladin, and the benefit provided, could then become a major threat to an evil creature, who suddenly sees his DR drain away to nothing, all thanks to that damned paladin...
Chobbly
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Using Lay on Hands points to remove maladies, that's a great alternate way to use Lay on Hands. The only question is though, with the paladin still having remove disease does the ability to heal damage, maladies and diseases make the paladin a better healer than a cleric? Should such an option (and maybe even the remove disease) be part of a 'hospitalier' style prestige class, available to paladins and clerics only? Just asking the question, I'm not sure of the answer.
As an aside, I've always found the paladin having access to the Restoration, Lesser spell really useful. I don't see why this couldn't be folded into Lay On Hands as an alternate use.
Remove Disease is removed as a class ability of the Paladin and instead is incorporated into the list of maladies that the paladin can remove - so too is Lesser Restor.
Also for Smite Evil - how about:
Smite Evil activates for a number of rounds equal to CHA mod (minimum one round - so that someone with an 11 CHA can still do the extra damage based on Pal-level.
Without WIS as a wholey important stat, it would increase the liklihood of a great CHA score (especially on those 28 point buy builds), and then Smite Evil would do something like +4 to attacks and
+ paladin level to damage for 4 rounds.
I agree, and having the Smite last a few rounds distances it a little bit from the rogue's Sneak Attack. If it was me, I'd be tempted to make the duration equal to the base charisma modifier (otherwise taking the Eagle's Splendor spell at every available opportunity would be...
Multi classing into cleric to get Eagle's Splendor is definitely an option that could facilitate a power build - but no more than a two or three level stop in paladin as a bard or sorcerer to get those Cha-based saving throws. There's always going to be some min/max multi-classed stop-over options regardless. But taking levels in cleric to get the Eagle's Splendor carries with it its own problems: Sure the Smite may last a bit longer - but with each level of cleric taken, it slows down the progression of how MANY smites you get which are based on the number of paladin levels.
I have a redesigned paladin that I'm using in my games which I made to incorporate these ideas along with auras that can be interchanged to affect the party with combat related bonuses along with a couple other unique cool class abilities, i posted it in another thread .
Robert
Here's my take on the Paladin. It combines several ideas found here on the boards as well as some of my own, with a dash of the Alpha 2's stuff. Hope you like it.
PALADIN
Alignment : Lawful Good
Hit Die : D10
Class Skills
The Paladin’s Class Skills ( and the key ability for each skill ) are : Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Nobility) (Int), Knowledge (Religion) (Int), Knowledge (The Planes), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis).
Skill at 1st Level : 3 + Int. Modifier
Base Attack Bonus : Full
Saves : Good Fortitude, Medium Will, Poor Reflex ( See end for medium progression ).
Level Special
1st Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil +1D6
2nd Divine Grace, Lay on Hands ( Healing, Lesser Restoration )
3rd Aura of Courage, Divine Health
4th Channel Positive Energy, Aura of Faith
5th Smite Evil +2D6, Lay on Hands ( Neutralize Poison )
6th Divine Bond
7th Aura of Resolve
8th Lay on Hands ( Remove Disease )
9th Aura of Justice
10th Smite Evil +3D6
11th Lay on Hands ( Cure Blindness / Deafness )
12th Heroes Feast
13th Aura of Warding
14th Lay on Hands ( Restoration )
15th Smite Evil +4D6
16th Aura of Righteousness
17th Lay on Hands ( Remove Curse )
18th Holy Word
19th Aura of Consecration
20th Smite Evil +5D6, Holy Champion
Class Features
All of the following are class features of the Paladin :
Weapon and Armor Proficiency : Paladins are proficient with all Simple and Martial weapons, with all types of Armor ( Heavy, Medium, and Light ), and with Shields ( except Tower Shields ).
Aura of Good (Ex) : The power of a Paladin’s Aura of Good ( see the Detect Good Spell ) is equal to his Paladin Level. At 8th Level, this Aura extends to any weapon he wields, treating it as Good aligned for the purpose of overcoming Damage Reduction.
Detect Evil (Sp) : At will, a Paladin can use Detect Evil, as the Spell.
Smite Evil (Su) : A Paladin may attempt to Smite Evil with one normal melee attack. He adds his Charisma Bonus ( if any ) to his attack roll and deals +1D6 extra damage. If the Paladin accidentally Smites a creature that is not Evil, the Smite has no effect, but the ability is not used up for that day. A Paladin may Smite Evil a number of times per day equal to 3+ their Charisma Modifier ( if any ). A Paladin’s Smite is considered Good Aligned for overcoming Damage Reduction. At 5th Level, and at every five Levels thereafter, the Paladin may Smite Evil one additional time per day, and the Smite damage increases by +1D6 ( +2D6 at 5th Level, +3D6 at 10th Level, etc… ).
Divine Grace (Su) : At 2nd level, a Paladin gains a Bonus equal to his Charisma Bonus ( if any ) on all Saving Throws.
Lay on Hands (Su) : Beginning at 2nd level, a Paladin can heal wounds ( his own or those of others, including his Bonded Mount, if he has one ) by touch. Each day he can use Lay on Hands 3+ his Charisma Modifier ( if any ). At 1st level, this healing is equal to a Cure Light Wounds Spell. At 5th Level, it is equal to a Cure Moderate Wounds Spell. At 10th, it is equal to Cure Serious Wounds, and at 15th it is equal to Cure Critical Wounds. The Paladin may also Lay on Hands to use Lesser Restoration ( as the Spell ) at this Level. As his Level increases, he may use his Lay on Hands to produce greater effects. The Paladin may always choose a lesser effect, if desired. At 5th Level, he can use Neutralize Poison, at 8th Level Remove Disease, at 11th Level Remove Blindness / Deafness, at 14th Level Restoration, at 17th Level Remove Curse, and finally at 20th Level, Raise Dead. The Paladin’s Caster Level is equal to his Paladin Level for these Spells and the Difficulty Class for a Saving Throw against a Paladin’s abilities is 10 + the ability ( or Spell ) Level + the Paladin’s Wisdom Modifier. Also, at these levels, when he gains new Powers, he also gains one extra daily use of Lay on Hands. Alternatively, a Paladin can use any or all of this healing abilities to deal damage to Undead creatures. Using Lay on Hands in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and doesn’t provoke an Attack of Opportunity.
Aura of Courage (Su) : Beginning at 3rd level, a Paladin is Immune to Fear ( magical or otherwise ). Each ally within 10 feet of him gains a +4 Morale Bonus on Saving Throws against Fear effects. This ability functions while the Paladin is conscious, but not if he is unconscious or dead.
Divine Health (Ex) : At 3rd level, a Paladin gains Immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Channel Positive Energy (Su) : When a Paladin reaches 4th level, he gains the supernatural ability to Channel Positive Energy. He may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma Modifier. He Channels Positive Energy as a Cleric of three Levels lower would.
Aura of Faith (Su) : At 4th Level, the Paladin may generate an Aura equal to a Light Spell cast at his Level. Upon reaching 12th Level, this becomes equal to a Daylight Spell. This aura counters Darkness related magic as the Spells they are modeled on. This Aura may be Dispelled, but the Paladin can re-create it as a Free Action on his Turn. The Paladin may turn this Aura off at will, as well.
Divine Bond (Sp) : Upon reaching 6th level, a Paladin gains a Divine Bond with his God. He acquires the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve him in his crusade against evil (see below) or, he is Divinely Inspired to create a weapon, which will grow in Divine Power for him to use.
Bonded Mount
This mount is usually a heavy warhorse ( for a Medium Paladin ) or a warpony ( for a Small Paladin ).
When he is ready, a Paladin may magically call his mount from the celestial realms in which it resides. The mount immediately appears adjacent to the Paladin. The mount remains with the Paladin, serving faithfully, as long as the Paladin doesn’t violate his Code. If the Paladin ever knowingly violates his Code, the Mount immediately returns to the Celestial Realms. Should a Paladin atone successfully, His Mount may be recalled. Should the Paladin’s mount die, it immediately disappears, leaving behind any equipment it was carrying. The Paladin may not summon another mount for thirty days or until he gains a Paladin Level, whichever comes first, even if the mount is somehow returned from the dead. During this thirty-day period, the paladin takes a -1 Penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls.
Bonded Weapon
The Paladin may receive a Divine Vision of an extraordinary weapon. In this case, he must acquire the Special Materials, and forge the weapon himself. The Paladin may make this check as if he were trained in the Craft ( Weaponsmith ) Skill. If he is already Trained in this skill, he may add a +2 Divine Bonus to the check. If the Skill check is successful, he has crafted a Masterwork weapon that becomes Magical, gaining a simple +1 Enhancement Bonus and that is treated as Good aligned for the purposes of overcoming Damage Reduction. At 9th Level it becomes +2 and gains the Holy Special Ability. At 12th Level it becomes +3, allowing the Paladin to Dispel Magic 1 / Round as caster of his Level. The area Dispel is the only option available, however. At 15th Level it becomes a +4 Weapon that can Cast Break Enchantment on a creature touched ( or attacked ) 2/Day. The Paladin uses his Paladin Level as the Caster Level. Finally, at 18th Level, it becomes +5 and generates a constant Holy Aura around the Paladin ( as the 8th Level Cleric Spell ).
Aura of Resolve (Su) : At 7th Level, a Paladin is Immune to Charm Spells and Spell-like Abilities. Each ally within 10 feet of him gains a +4 Morale Bonus on Saving Throws against Charm effects. This ability functions while the Paladin is conscious, but not if he is unconscious or dead.
Aura of Justice (Su) : At 9th Level, any weapon the Paladin wields is now considered Lawful for the purposes of overcoming Damage Reduction.
Heroes Feast (Su) : At 12th Level, the Paladin can produce a Heroes Feast, as the Spell, which will also feed his Bonded Mount, if he has one. This can be done once per day.
Aura of Warding (Su) : At 13th Level, the Paladin is surrounded by a protective Aura equal to a Magic Circle vs. Evil. The Paladin’s Level is considered the Caster Level for all related effects. This Aura may be Dispelled, but the Paladin can re-create it as a Free Action on his Turn. The Paladin may turn this Aura off at will, as well.
Aura of Righteousness (Su) : At 16th Level, the Paladin gains DR 5 / Evil and is immune to Compulsion Spells and Spell-like effects. Each ally within 10 feet of him gains a +4 Morale Bonus on Saving Throws against Compulsion effects. This ability functions while the Paladin is conscious, but not if he is unconscious or dead.
Holy Word (Su) : At 18th Level, the Paladin can utter a Holy Word once per day, as the Spell of the same name, with his Level as the Caster Level and Difficulty Class for a Saving Throw against it is 10 + the Spell Level + the Paladin’s Wisdom Modifier.
Aura of Consecration (Su) : At 19th Level, the Paladin becomes a living vessel for his God’s Power. He is constantly surrounded by a Hallow Spell ( equal to his Level as the Caster Level ). This also counteracts Unhallowed areas, but both effects are temporarily suppressed. When the Paladin moves out of such an area, both effects resume. This Aura may be Dispelled, but the Paladin can re-create it as a Free Action on his Turn. The Paladin may turn this Aura off at will, as well.
Holy Champion (Su) : At 20th Level, the Paladin becomes a conduit for the power of his God. His DR increases to 10 / Evil. Whenever he uses his Smite Evil against an evil Outsider, the Outsider is subject to a Banishment, using his Paladin level as the Caster level ( his Weapon and Holy Symbol automatically count as objects that the subject hates ). In addition, whenever he Channels Positive Energy, he channels the maximum amount possible.
Code of Conduct: A Paladin must be of Lawful Good alignment and loses all Class Abilities if he ever willingly commits an Evil act. Additionally, a Paladin’s Code requires that he respect legitimate authority, act with honor ( not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth ), help those in need ( provided they do not use the help for Evil or Chaotic ends ), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Associates : While he may adventure with characters of any Good or Neutral alignment, a Paladin will never knowingly associate with Evil characters, nor will he continue an association with someone who consistently offends his moral code. A Paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are Lawful Good.
Ex-Paladins
A Paladin who ceases to be Lawful Good, who willfully commits an Evil act, or who grossly violates the Code of Conduct loses all Paladin Abilities ( including the service of the Paladin’s Mount or Weapon, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies ). He may not progress any farther in Levels as a Paladin. He regains his abilities and advancement potential if he atones for his violations ( see the Atonement Spell description ), as appropriate. Like a member of any other Class, a Paladin may be a multiclass character, but multiclass Paladins face a special restriction. A Paladin who gains a Level in any Class other than Paladin may never again raise his Paladin Level, though he retains all his Paladin abilities.
Medium Save Progression
1st +0
2nd +0
3rd +1
4th +1
5th +2
6th +2
7th +3
8th +3
9th +4
10th +4
11th +5
12th +5
13th +6
14th +6
15th +7
16th +7
17th +8
18th +8
19th +9
20th +9
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I like your take on the auras WB, they're a logical progression from the aura of courage, IMO. Not sure about the weapon and mount options though. Maybe the form of the animal is just based on the personality/diety of the paladin, but they're all the same stat-wise (like beastform is all the same except for a few minor details). I don't have any suggestions for the weapon bond though (no good ones at least).
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Edit: After reading threw my post, I realized I never actually specified that i was talking about Bladesinger's build.....whoops :P
I’m liking this version of paladin pretty hard. It’s got a lot of great abilities. I’d change the saves back to standard for paladin just to keep backwards compatibility, though I do like the concept of medium saves. I’m not sure these new abilities (as powerful as some of them are) make up for the spellcasting they’re loosing. I still like the idea of switching out spellcasting levels for one or two domains as a cleric. With this build, probably one domain would be enough and also give them a bit more customization. The new version of lay on hands makes up for the healing magic they lose in spellcasting and greatly improves an ability I always thought had potential but lacked any real “umph” (especially at higher levels, where it always seemed like an extra half-strength heal spell). The divine bond looks nifty. The dream of your divine weapon really inspired my creativity urges and that’s always good. The progression for it looks pretty solid as well. It almost looks a little too powerful but I’m not good enough at balance to really tell. The divine mount on the other hand hasn’t changed (I think, you didn’t say anything new about it so I assumed standard paladin rules for this). Something I always thought would make it a little better would be giving it the celestial template somewhere around 7th level or so and upgrading to the half-celestial template (or some modified version of it) at around 15th level. Every thing else looks great. The aura’s I love and the 20th level cap stone is still awesome. Definitely a paladin I would play, both fluff and rules wise.
-Mr. Bo
Paladins in 3.5 and earlier are defined as lawful good champions of justice and valor.
The paladin is a warrior blessed with divine powers. The paladin is a champion of a divine being.
If lawful good deities have champions to promote justice and defend the innocent, what about the other deities and their causes? Are clerics really enough? What about non-lawful gods of war? Wouldn't it make sense for them to have special soldiers that wield divine power from the get-go?
Part of the problem/opportunity of playing a paladin is the code of conduct. Few other classes are as limited as the paladin is in what he/she can say and do. The question is, does the restrictions in a code of conduct, from a theme and a gaming point of view, translate well to other alignments?
Would a neutral or semi-neutral alignment paladin simply become an easy choice for a player who wanted the class features and a relatively transparent code of conduct? There's already the Unearthed Arcana paladin variants for the other extreme non-neutral alignments and the Favored Soul class from Complete Divine.
The Pathfinder paladin is a great improvement on the old one, even at Alpha 2. I think I'd rather see the attention given to the Lawful Good paladin, and the effort put into that, rather than nine separate sets of class features/builds and playtesting. Having a page or two-page spread of non-core secondary content on how to convert a paladin to other deities/alignments (like Unearthed Arcana) would really work well for those who want alternate alignment paladins, but then it's down to the GM's responsibility to implement and keeps the rules straightforward.
Not dissing your question/thoughts though - it's an interesting one.
Chobbly
@ Quest-master: I know what you mean. While I already thought about Paladins of non-neutral alignements, your statements make perfectly sense.
The thing is: This is what the CLERIC should be for!
But than, what is the PALADIN actually good for, if every LG Cleric should be like him?
That's why I will merge those two classes into one and make a new core class: THE PRIEST
While I havn't thought it all through, the major difference is that the Cleric/Paladin actually quests for fighting the enemies of their faith, the Priest cares for the followers, etc. Think about them maybe as military and police/fire-fighter.
As I said, I am not even half done with it...
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The gods do this with their priests. Why not with their chosen warriors? The synonym for paladin is guard. The name itself is associated with lawful good only because of a tradition of game design in DnD and a historical reference to a person whose name the word paladin is derived from. Surely it would increase playability and class flavor to make the change.
Two or three extra pages of text to increase the roleplaying value of this class a hundredfold.
You do make a valid case that there should be "champions" for other religious views/alignments.
However where you are wrong is your assessment as to why the paladin is LG. It is not just D&D tradition. The word Paladin is indeed derived as you say, but its also used to reference the knights of Charlamagne. The definition of the word Paladin (American Heritage Dictionary) is "A paragon of chilvalry. A knightly or heroic champion." As a secondary definition its one who defends a noble cause.
So the very definition "Paragon of chivalry and heroic champion" is not one that would reflect MOST of D&D alignments. A look at the definition of LG in D&D mirrors this quite closely. That is why paladins are LG.
That all being said, what the dictionary doesn't express is one that defines paladins as "holy" or "divine." That is a liberty D&D has taken and pushed it to an extreme. IMO, Paladins should not be so dedicated to a specific faith or religion. Instead paladins should remain the knightly type heroic champion and indeed be LG - but their power comes from their own sense of righteousness and inner fire of chivalry and honor. These are the aspects that should grant them their abilities; their dedication to good causes, to law, their own strict code of conduct and their focus in their hearts and minds to be "paragon" example of a hero. Following gods - good gods is part of D&D, but I dont think paladins need to be focused on any one - just the notion of law and good and righteousness.
Thus by doing so - it then allows the "cleric" of each god to represent that which you were soliciting.
Paladin should be LG; without a doubt.
That being said: there can be an LE version of a paladin like persona - such as a BlackGuard or called a "Tyrant. There can be a Chaotic champion as well. Crusader works well for this (evil versions and good version). You could even include a LN version called simply a Knight - using law as more important than good. The Knight Class is a good fuel source for ideas on that one. Straight Neutral on the other hand tend not to care enough to need a champion. (a champion of indifference?)
So I would lobby for the inclusion of a chaotic knightly champion like a "Crusader" and keep the paladin LG - and remove a lot of the onus on being a holy champion of a particular god - allowing the clerics to handle that role.
Finally, since I never advocate playing evil characters or games, those are the only two that really need to exist - as the evil ones should be merely for flavor and DM use.
Robert