Ok, here's finally the real [THINK TANK] for Fighters. ;)
We all know they aren't good enough, but still all other classes get more special abilities than our poor fellow here.
I would like to see some non-combat abilities too (for all classes actually)
My ideas so far:
- Three Good saves. The fighter needs high reflexes in combat, so no deny him those. The fighter should be strong willed, since the will-save is used for fear-saves and the like too. Furthermore it was seen in many movies where the hero fights against the mind-influencing magician BUT finally wins the contest and slays him.
- Reputation-bonus when dealing with common folk. (Hero of the little man)
- Armor Training improving Max.DEX as well
Armor Training separated into Light, Medium and Heavy (with lightly different benefits)
- Make the fighter a Field Commander/Warlord with special tactic/strategy skills/abilities/feats
- Give the fighter his army back!
- Ability to scan an enemy for weak spots
- Exotic Weapons without penalty
Draco! You're behind the ball on this one; there already is a fighter think tank. Unless that one's no good for some reason?
Well if you read the first few posts, the OP just wanted to discuss HIS ideas and didn't actually wanted to start a [TT].
That's why I didn't bother about that specific thread anymore. If it became a REAL [TT] now, just tell me and I will start posting there.
If not: Everybody is welcome here.
and please add an order of Fighter ONLY feats...
I don´t believe a Fighter should get three high saves but it should have a high will save.
Weird to see the Fighter, so used to fighting very close with enemies run alway scared of a Dragon from pure fear.
The pathfinder Paladin adreesed a few of those problems. Although it did not give him a high will save, at least he got immunity to several things.
Hummm...
1 more combat feats
2 Armor Training improving Max.DEX
3 Exotic Weapons with smaller penalty
4 good fort and will saves
5 4 skills per level
that would look good I think
Why wouldn't you give him a good REF? I thought convincing you about the good WIL would be difficult. :)
Hummm...
1 more combat feats
2 Armor Training improving Max.DEX
3 Exotic Weapons with smaller penalty
4 good fort and will saves
5 4 skills per levelthat would look good I think
One of the problems with the Fighter's current incarnation is that you see lots of people with levels of fighter; up to four, in fact. Fighter 1 is one of the best levels in the game, in fact!
While I like these changes, they don't solve the problem of the Fighter having little to make it attractive later in the game, but DO make it even more desirable to take a level or two in.
I don´t believe a Fighter should get three high saves but it should have a high will save.
Weird to see the Fighter, so used to fighting very close with enemies run alway scared of a Dragon from pure fear.
The pathfinder Paladin adreesed a few of those problems. Although it did not give him a high will save, at least he got immunity to several things.
I think I would rather have the fighter have a bonus on saves against fear than an overall good will save.
As a DM, the fighters low will save is one of the only ways effectively dealing with a fighter. While reflex saves are poor, the fighter normally has enough hit points to throw around so he can survive quite a few spellblasts and when it comes to fortitude, forget about it, the fighter will most of the time make his save against a creature of an appropriate challenge rating; by most I mean 60%+ of the time.
Of the things I've seen on the other fighter threads, I love:
1. Option (ability or feat) allowing you to give up iterative attacks in exchange for limited movement;
3. Option to hold iterative attacks, and use them as immediate actions any time before your next turn. I'd LOVE to see this combined with option #1, so that you could attack once, pause, see someone casting a spell across the room, and immediately charge over to the caster and attack him to disrupt it. I feel like that would go a long way towards addressing the fighter/spellcaster disparity.
3. Ability to penetrate DR (scales with level), to cut down on the "golf bag" nonsense;
Of the things I've seen on the other fighter threads, I love:
1. Option (ability or feat) allowing you to give up iterative attacks in exchange for limited movement;
3. Option to hold iterative attacks, and use them as immediate actions any time before your next turn. I'd LOVE to see this combined with option #1, so that you could attack once, pause, see someone casting a spell across the room, and immediately charge over to the caster and attack him to disrupt it. I feel like that would go a long way towards addressing the fighter/spellcaster disparity.
3. Ability to penetrate DR (scales with level), to cut down on the "golf bag" nonsense;
Kirth, I agree with your points. I think however that the DR problem has less to go for remedying. Combination of Weapon Training and Power Attack negates the most common levels (DR1-5) by 5th level. The main thing I would advocate to deal with it and in general would be changing Weapon Training to being +1 to attack and +2 damage per pick. At 17th level this means the fighter would be at +4 to hit and +8 damage...without considering Strength Modifier which I would be surprised if it was not adding +4 to both by 17th level. This would result in a +7 to attack and a +12 damage...or +3 to attack and +16 Damage using Power Attack. This damage bonus would negate even the Pit Fiend's mighty DR 15 (which is the heighest non-epic DR I can recall in 3.5) and will pretty much ruin a werewolf's night.
-Weylin Stormcrowe
I think however that the DR problem has less to go for remedying.
Yeah, I agree; I'm still nostalgic for 3.0 DR, I think. I'll get over it. The first two points are the ones I would most like to see anyway. Imagine: fighter and rogue are fighting with two mooks apiece; a number of them are already dead. Fighter with +16 BAB makes one attack, kills the mook he's fighting, uses Cleave and drops the other. Then he wisely holds his remaining three attacks until he can see how things stand.
Bad guys' turn; seeing the rogue about to be killed, the fighter uses his second attack as an immediate action and drops that attacker. Then he spots the mooks' master setpping into the room to cast a spell at them; he immediately uses his third attack to cross over to this new threat, and his last attack against the spellcaster, to hopefully ruin the spell.
That kind of usage makes the fighter a master of the battlefield, not just a stand-there-and-swing guy.
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Considering a human fighter gets 22 feats all the way from 1st level to 20th, he definitely needs more and more feats to improve his combat prowess. And I mean *A LOT*. If the designers are having a writer's block when coming up with feats, they need to watch Chuck Norris/Jackie Chan/some swordflingy movies.
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Or you could allow the Fighter to stack his feats, i.e. two weapon focus feats to get +2 to hit with that weapon, or more improved criticals to increase the range, double TWF to reduce or reduce the penalty, etc, etc.
Also more Fighter only feats. I mean, at the moment the poor sod has Weapon Specilisation and that's his only unique trick.
One of the problems with the Fighter's current incarnation is that you see lots of people with levels of fighter; up to four, in fact. Fighter 1 is one of the best levels in the game, in fact!
While I like these changes, they don't solve the problem of the Fighter having little to make it attractive later in the game, but DO make it even more desirable to take a level or two in.
In total agreement here.
It's in the later levels the fighter needs to be tweaked. Not the early/starting areas. Give the fighter a Will save boost, and you only make it MORE appealing to dip into.
My thought is granting the fighter the ability to uses multiple combat feats in a round.
My thought is granting the fighter the ability to uses multiple combat feats in a round.
I had the same thought posted it a few time really.
1 more combat feats
2 Armor Training improving Max.DEX
3 Exotic Weapons with smaller penalty
4 good fort or reflex saves
5 a +1 to fear saves every 3 levels
6 Improving the number of combat feats they can use
*6th level. 2 combat feats
*11th level 3 combat feats
*16th level 4 combat feats
7 4 skills per level
that would look good I think
I will reiterate my suggestions.
1. Weapon training gives +1 to hit/+2 to damage rolls.
2. Armor training should give DR based on armor type.
--Light armor: +1 AC, DR 1/-
--Medium armor: +1 AC, DR 2/-
--Heavy armor: +1 AC, DR 3/-
(That is, of course, per armor training, so a high-level fighter wearing platemail would have DR 12/-.)
I like the idea of being able to use more combat feats in a round. I'm not sure how many more feats you need assuming you have access to all of the feats in the various 3.5 books.
I don't particularly want fighters to do more damage, but I like feats that let you do more interesting things. Cometary collision, which lets you disrupt charges, for example. Maybe you could make a group of "greater" maneuver feats which are fighter only. Something like Greater grappling requires improved grapple and grants an additional +2 bonus.
Making some of the epic srd feats into lower level fighter feats.
Also, some feats like the unarmed feats that allow you to bestow various conditions might be nice.
Like many of my posts, this is a long one. So long I felt the need to spoiler it into sections. But there is hopefully something in here that you will find useful.
First off, as far as Fighters having three good saves, hmm. I think it would make the Monk that much less appealing. What I would be interested in is a way to choose which Save is good and which two are bad. That way my dude with a sword is still Fort, while my archer is Reflexes. All the bonus feats make the fighter the most flexible of classes, except in Saves and Skills. And I totally agree with Fighters getting more Skill Ranks, however in the new system, I don’t really care if he gets any new class skills, a +3 is only a +3 after all.
And I like Psychic Robot’s +1/+2 idea for Weapon Training.
Fighter Only Feats:
There are of course a number of feats with the Fighter in mind, these however are the only ones I’ve found that either you had to have a certain level in Fighter to get, or you needed a feat that only Fighters could get, such as Weapon Specialization. I put a brief description of the Player Handbook Two feats.
(PHB II did more for the fighter than just about any book, really improved the feat line up, and unlike Book of Nine Swords, it made Feats that a fighter could use, not new classes that were for fighter/mages.)
PHB
Weapon Specialization F4
Greater Weapon Focus F8
Greater Weapon Specialization F12
PHB II
Melee Weapon Mastery: BAB +8 Additional +2/+2 on all Slashing, Blunt, or Piercing weapons
Ranged Weapon Mastery: BAB +8 Additional +2/+2 on ranged slashing, blunt, or piercing attacks, and +20’ range.
Crushing Strike: BAB +14 Cumulative +1 to hit with each blunt weapon attack
Driving Attack: BAB +14 Special Bull Rush/Trip attack using piercing weapon
Slashing Fury: BAB +14 Two attacks as a Standard Action. Additional slashing weapon attack in a full attack, -5 on all attacks.
Weapon Supremacy: F18 +5 to any attack except the first, +1 AC, Take 10 on one attack per round. Plus additional benefits.
A PFRPG Fighter with Greater Weapon Specialization and Focus, Melee Mastery, Slashing Attack, and Weapon Supremacy (all Longsword), by 20th level, the base attack without strength or magic items would be:
+23/+23/+23/+13/+7 Where the third attack got the +5, and one of these would get to Take 10. Damage would be D8+6 per hit.
With a 20 Strength and a +5 weapon however:
+33/+33/+33/+23/+17 Damage D8+16.
And that’s only 7 feats.
There are so many feats that give new abilities for Fighters, some are amazing, some.. well not so much.
Book of Iron Might:
And lastly, for those of you who haven’t checked out Book of Iron Might, from Malhavoc Press please do. I think that there are some great concepts that could be used to build off of. And frankly, it’s just a good book.
The Book of Iron Might details Maneuvers, which are combat options that anyone can attempt, such as Bull Rush, or Trip, except the maneuvers allow you to do area attacks, blind, daze, stun, reduce speed, and additional damage. The penalties involved with each one can get ridiculously high, so there are also a bunch of drawbacks, from Full Round Action, Provokes Attack of Opportunity, and even Provokes a free attack that automatically hits. You can create specific maneuvers in training, or make up maneuvers on the fly, up to you and the DM. The effect makes very unique combats, and lots of options.
The book also created Arcane Battle Feats, which combines the fighter and the mage, sort of like the BoNS, but does it through the use of Feats only, not a new class. Each feat gives you something much like a spell, most can only be used a number of times each day, and they range from energy attacks, animated weapons, and mild flight to name a few.
Fighting Style Feats are pretty good, there not super powerful, but they add a lot to your character. Pretty much you take a feat that is your style, such as Archer, Brawler, Fencer, or Tactical Genius. Each feat comes with a selection of five different abilities. When you gain the feat you get one ability, and you get one additional ability every time your BAB goes up +5. So if you took the Feat between levels 1-4, you’d have all five abilities by level 20.
My favorite thing about the book was it’s creation of Battlemind Feats. These are less magical, more mental/physical training feats that allow for some interesting strategy in fights, and have very neat training rules. You have to declare that you will take a feat two levels in advance. After one level, you start training in the skill, gaining a small benefit, and then you gain the Feat the next level. You keep both abilities.
Example-: Training period: with a full round action you study a single opponent, gaining +1 on attack rolls on him for the rest of the encounter. Feat: each round you may pick someone who has attacked you and gain a +1 to strike them. Each consecutive round they attack you; you get an additional +1 to a maximum of +5.
Many of these feats are based on fear effects, adding to surprise checks, initiative checks, and precision attacks.
That's all I can think of right now.
You've got it.Ok, here's finally the real [THINK TANK] for Fighters. ;)
We all know they aren't good enough, but still all other classes get more special abilities than our poor fellow here.
Ok, here's finally the real [THINK TANK] for Fighters. ;)
We went through this on the Wizards boards with some immensely talented DM/ designers (sensei Aelryinth is just incredible on this issue), and it was an unbelievable exchange with sample builds and everything. In the end, we ended up with a fighter who:
* Could do some important things no-one else could do;
* Had some coveted abilities at high level;
* People would want to take the fighter up to at least 5th at least if multiclassing, while others would actually want to stay fighters;
* Could be built into builds that let you create desirable, effective swashbucklers, tank specialists, archers, et. a. without having to leave the Fighter class;
* Could be used to create useful NPCs with logical skills, including important roles like policeman, sailor, mercenary, et. al. with the skill sets they need to do their jobs properly. Without giving fighters too many class skills.
To that end, I'm sharing some of the results of that work here (the material was posted publicly, for use by anyone, no rights reserved).
Paizo has taken a slightly different tack with Pathfinder's fighter, and to me it's missing a few things:
* Lack of NPC flexibility. Hard to create viable police and other roles given the skill set et. al.
* Weapon group bonuses and armor bonuses are good and flavorful, but not enough to match other classes' bonus abilities at higher levels. Worse, they don't give Paizo something it really needs: a Fighter class for Pathfinder that's flexible enough to be very versatile and effective in various roles as builds within the base class, from Knight to Swashbuckler to Archer et. al. That will take some cooler powers, rather than just plusses.
At the same time, Paizo's Armor and Weapon Group ideas absolutely ought to be part of the Fighter class. We need to look at how to do that.
So, without further ado...
Big thanks to all the thread participants. Here's what I synthesized...
THE FIGHTER, RELOADED...
Hit Die: d10.
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.
Fighter Core Class Skills:
The fighter's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha OR Str), Jump (Str), Knowledge (tactics and war) (Wis), Profession (Wis), Spot (Wis).
Fighter Individual Add-on Class Skills - pick 4:
Balance (Dex) Climb (Str), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (geography, local, nobility & royalty) (Int), Listen (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Rope (Dex).
[code]Table: The Fighter
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1st +1 +2 +0 +1 Bonus feat, Weapon Aptitude
2nd +2 +3 +0 +1 Bonus feat
3rd +3 +3 +1 +2 Height of Battle 1/day
4th +4 +4 +1 +2 Bonus feat
5th +5 +4 +1 +3 Battle Mastery
6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +3 Bonus feat
7th +7/+2 +5 +2 +3
8th +8/+3 +6 +2 +4 Bonus feat
9th +9/+4 +6 +3 +4 Height of Battle 2/day
10th +10/+5 +7 +3 +5 Bonus feat, Battle Mastery
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +5
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +6 Bonus feat
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +6
14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +6 Bonus feat
15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +7 Height of Battle 3/day, Battle Mastery
16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +7 Bonus feat
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +8
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +8 Bonus feat
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +9
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +9 Bonus feat, Battle Mastery, Martial Mastery.[/code]
__ Class Features __
All of the following are class features of the fighter.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).
Bonus Feats: At 1st level, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The fighter additional bonus feats as above, which must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums. These bonus feats are in addition to the feats that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. A fighter is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing these feats.
Weapon Aptitude (Ex): Your training with a wide range of weaponry and tactics gives you great flexibility to adjust your fighting styles and tactics. Each morning you may spend 1 hours in weapon practice to change the designated weapon for any feat you have that applies only to a single weapon (such as Weapon Focus). You must have the newly designated weapon available during your practice section to make this change.
You can adjust any number of feats this way, and you don't have to adjust all of them in the same way. However you can't change the weapon choices in such a way that you no longer meet the prerequisites for some other feat you possess. For example, if you have Weapon Focus (Longsword) and Weapon Specialization (Longsword), you cannot change your Weapon Focus without also changing your Weapon Specialization in the same way.
Height of Battle (Ex): Once per day a fighter of 3rd level or higher can draw on his unmatched combat experience for a burst of inspired effort that lesser warriors simply cannot match. As an immediate action, he can gain a bonus on all attack and damage rolls, or a bonus to Armor class and all saving throws. This bonus is equal to 1/2 his fighter class level and lasts 1 round. At 9th level, and at every 6 levels thereafter, the fighter may use height of battle one additional time per day. He cannot use height of battle more than once per encounter.
Note that Height of Battle can be used even after an attack or save has already been rolled, possibly negating harm that would have otherwise affected the fighter, suddenly hitting on a near miss, finishing off a key opponent with that last bit of extra damage, et. al.
Battle Mastery (Ex): Each time you gain this ability (5th, 10th, 15th, 20th levels) you may choose a single ability from the following list. Some abilities have prerequisites. Unless noted otherwise, you may choose an ability multiple times:
Ambidexterity
Prerequisite: Two-Weapon Fighting, Dex 15
Your two-weapon fighting penalties are reduced by -2. This cannot reduce the penalties past 0.
Bonus Feat
You may gain any feat for which you qualify.
Mastery of Disarming
You gain a +2 bonus on Disarm checks
Mastery of Dodging
You gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC. This is lost if you are denied your Dex bonus to AC
Mastery of Grappling
You gain a +2 bonus on Grapple checks. This may be chosen two times.
Mastery of Grappling 2
Prerequisite: Mastery fo Grappling
You are considered one size category large for the purpose of grappling. This may only be selected once.
Mastery of Range
Your precision range is expanded by 30ft
Mastery of Survival
You gain a +1 bonus on all saving throws, and 1 extra HP per HD.
Mastery of Tripping
You gain a +2 bonus on trip attempts.
Mastery of War
You gain a +1 bonus on all attacks
Ranged Weapon Mastery
Prerequisite: Mastery of Range
You do not provoke attacks of opportunity for using a ranged weapon, and threaten all squares within 10ft of you.
Shield Mastery
You gain a +2 bonus to shield AC when wielding and light or heavy shield or a tower shield.
Swift Strikes
Prerequisite: BAB +6, Dex 15
When making an attack as a standard action, you may make one extra attack at a -5 penalty. If you fighting with two weapon, you may also make an attack with your off-hand weapon.
True Power Attack
When using the Power Attack feat, you deal damage on a 2 for 1 ratio with a one handed weapon and a 3 for 1 ratio with a two handed weapon. In addition, you are permitted to use the Power Attack feat with a light weapon, gaining damage on a 1 for 1 ratio.
Martial Mastery (Ex). The distinction between standard and full attack sequences vanishes. The fighter can make attacks up to her maximum number available, and do so as a Standard Action. This is the fighter's capstone ability, which gives people a strong reason to ride the class all the way to level 20.
** Some Thoughts on the Changes **
* Height of Battle, an ability directly taken from Lotus Crane's work, functions on the same line as the barbarians rage, the paladin's smite, or the ranged combat enhancement spells. It lets the fighter exceed his normal limits, to have an immediate surge in offensive capabilities, or be able to shrug off an otherwise lethal combination of attacks. As its name implies, its best used at the height of the battle, to shift the tide in the other direction. Its ability to be used after a roll has been made is what makes it the fighter's true killer ability.
How any times has your group been just this close to getting the Big Bad Guy, or one close but bad roll ended it all for someone. Believe me, once other classes see the fighter pull this out a couple of times, nobody who multiclasses into fighter will never quit before 3rd level.
* Adding Intimidate and reflecting the real world by making it (Str or Cha) had a surprisingly big fun factor effect, and restored something important that was missing from the fighter, without detracting from other classes like the Barbarian et. al. This one change alone can make the fighter types start paying attention in role-playing encounters.
* The boost to 4 skill points works very well, especially in combination with the "core + choose 4" approach. I found it led to fighters with the skill builds they needed as NPCs, and PC fighters with skill levels worth having. Suddenly, sneaking by the mid-level fighter guard isn't necessarily simple, that swashbuckler with the maxed tumble score can deliver unpleasant surprises, the mercenary is very good at reading the character and motives of potential employers, the wilderness warrior can't track like a ranger but can can at least survive very well in the woods, etc.
Here's an illustration of these additional choices in practice. As you can see, there are still real choices for a PC to make here - and the fighter's so-so Int score means further choices will be in order as they decide how they want to allocate skill points and where they want to be above-average. For NPCs, the change is huge because all of a sudden, they can do their jobs...
Police: Diplomacy, Knowledge local, Listen, Sense Motive
Bounty Hunter: Listen, Sense Motive, Survival, Use Rope
Bodyguard: Heal, Knowledge nobility, Listen, Sense Motive
Sentinel: Listen, Sense Motive, Knowledge - local, nobility
Knight: Diplomacy, Knowledge - geography, nobility, Ride
Mercenary: Knowledge geography, Listen, Sense Motive, Survival
Trained Thug: Knowledge local, Listen, Use rope +1
Musketeer: Climb, Knowledge nobility, Tumble, Use rope
Sailor: Climb, Swim, Use rope, +1
Wilderness Warrior: Climb, Swim, Survival, Use rope
* I really like what Paizo did with the Armor and Weapon Group fighter abilities. They do add to the fighter. Now, the bad news: the truth is, they aren't flashy enough to compete with other class' level-based abilities and keep people in the fighter fold. Worse, they don't offer the same kind of flexibility in building different types of fighters: Knights, Swashbucklers, Bounty Hunters, et. al. That's a serious weakness for Pathfinder, which needs to be more universal rather than supplemental book-based in terms of rules.
I'd absolutely make Paizo's Armor and Weapon Group bonuses into feat options, though - and in that mode, they'd synergize scary well with Battle Mastery options to build VERY interesting fighters who can hold their own.
* Speaking of which, let's talk about the reason fighter multiclasses will have to think hard about leaving before 5th level, and why others will want to stay fighters...
Battle Mastery is ff6shadow's own device, designed to enhance the fighter towards his chosen specialty. We ended up tweaking it in a coupe of minor ways, but ended up being very pleased at the kinds of specialized builds these choices make possible, from archers to non-monk martial artists, to swashbucklers, to ultra-tough types, etc.
For instance, a 5th level Fighter swashbuckler type gets full ambidexterity at 5th level, then adds swift strikes at 10th to take advantage of multiple attacks as a standard action, and finally true power attack at 15th level to add those strength bonuses to their light weapons. That is a swashbuckler you'll remember, and not someone to cross blades with. All within the pure Fighter class. Perfect. Want a great archer that could give Legolas a run? By 10th level, Mastery of Range plus Ranged Weapon Mastery will make you and your bow something to be feared - especially if you have a few Rogue levels, but of course that means waiting until 14th character level or so. Choices, choices...
Note that Swift Strikes has value beyond swashbucklers - it offers something no other fighting type character can emulate. With it, a fighter can maintain multiple hit capability that he relies upon for damage, while still being a mobile character. This creates more parity with options like the Scout, and adds a unique ability that puts the fighter much more head and shoulders above Clerics or Paladins in combat.
True power Attack both emulates the Improved Power Attack class feature of some prestige classes, and allows something unique: the ability to Power Attack with a light weapon. Sacrificing +5 to hit in exchange for +15 damage with that 2-handed greataxe ain't too shabby, either.
Shield Mastery combined with True Power Attack, allows a Sword and Board fighter a chance to compete with other weapon choices again.
Mastery of Survival is so good that it becomes a real dilemma, because it slows down other beneficial combinations but is hard to pass up.
Bonus Feat lets you gain additional feats if you prefer, and ff6shadow included this just as an option.
* Weapon Aptitude may not work so well with Paizo's conception, which seems to be nudging fighters to be more specialized and less generalist. Replacement with a choice of Paizo's weapon or armor extraordinary ability might be in order.
in its defense, however, Weapon Aptitude is great for DMs who are suddenly freed up to offer magic weapons outside of a narrow selection and add more flavor. In practical game dynamics terms, the boost this gives the fighter ends up being a bigger deal than the mere humdrum power itself might suggest. Now, you're the the guy who can say "hey, don't sell that - that magic trident is cool and I can switch my specialization with Weapon Aptitude - 'Wave,' come to Papa!"
* Melee Mastery is a capstone ability for those who take the full 20 level ride - and it gives fighters a very serious incentive to do so. The difference between a Level 20 pure Fighter with 4 attacks as a standard action plus a Shield and Shield Mastery, and a fighter who got off the bus at level 15 and has "only" Swift Strikes, is big enough that those other 5 levels had better offer something pretty damn special.
This ability also means that yes, perhaps that Pit Fiend or Balor actually DOES have cause to take the armored fighter gal very seriously, because teleports can't counter the fighter's main power unless the creature just stays absolutely away from her. This was not previously the case, and it goes a long way to balancing certain scales.
I like some of the ideas I've seen on this thread:
- Weapon Training giving +1 hit /+2 damage (With the lower damage bonus from Power Attack, this would help a lot)
- More Combat Feats (specially more Fighter-Only feats, the kind of things that mark you immediately as a fighter when used in the middle of combat; the PH2 was a huge step in that direction)
- Armor Training improving Max Dex (I really like this one)
- 4 skills per level (this is a must)
- The option of holding iterative attacks for use as immediate actions (I like this and indeed would turn the fighter in the master of the battlefield, but I don't know if it would turn out to be balanced)
In addition, I think the Fighter should avoid abilities and features that grant temporary power boosts... the Fighter's focus should remain at being consistently and reliably good, as long his HP remains in the positives... Things like the Combat Focus feats, however, are great in giving an extra edge to fighters, but being usable in each and every combat.
GRRRRRRRRREAT ideas!
I think the fighter should be able to do more than one combat feat a turn at higher levels
Big thanks to all the thread participants. Here's what I synthesized...
THE FIGHTER, RELOADED...
I really wish there was some way to do tables properly. What I posted was the pure 3.5 final version we came up with. I hope to have time to create a "blended" version that looks at incorporating Paizo's new features of Armor Training and Weapon Training.
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Optional amour proficiencies. Not all fighters are tanks. At first level fighters can choose to drop one, two or all three of their armor proficiencies (light, medium, heavy) and replace them with either other weapon feats like exotic weapons, defensive feats like dodge, or skill feats like Persuasive.
This is a neat idea, allowing the Fighter (and only the Fighter) to trade in Heavy Armor Proficiency, Medium Armor Proficiency, Light Armor Proficiency and / or Shield Proficiency for +1 Dodge Bonuses to AC.
Unfortunately, I can see some Wizard taking one level of Fighter and trading in all of his Armor/Shield feats for a +4 Dodge Bonus to AC...
Ya know multiclassing really needs fixed set is right its a neat ideal however
I'm in the process of reading Monte Cook's Book of Experimental Might II, Bloody, Bold, and Resolute.
Just at first glance: wow.
Fighting Styles Feat groups, allowing you to switch out any feat you know for another feat in that group that you could have.
40 pages of feats, most of them either Fighter only feats, or feats that increase in power after 9th level (or some other level) if and only if you got them as a Bonus Fighter Feat.
A few things for non-fighters, and a few things that will only work if your using BOXM I with them, such as the new hit point rules, or the increased Feats/level, but still I think this is going to be a really good read.
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Maybe I'm off the mark here, but there seems to be a dearth of decent high level feats for fighters. I would suggest that creating some of these might be handy. They had a go at this in the PHB2, though the fact I can't remember too many may suggest how successful it was. However, the ideas in the tactical feats might be a way to go (providing significant advantages for various weapon and equipment choices - the sort of thing in the fencing Indulgence on Nick Logue's website would be an example of the sort of thing for the rapier) and more powerful, specialist feats for high level fighters.
This is a neat idea, allowing the Fighter (and only the Fighter) to trade in Heavy Armor Proficiency, Medium Armor Proficiency, Light Armor Proficiency and / or Shield Proficiency for +1 Dodge Bonuses to AC. Unfortunately, I can see some Wizard taking one level of Fighter and trading in all of his Armor/Shield feats for a +4 Dodge Bonus to AC...
Easy fix: add this text: "The total dodge bonus obtained for trading in proficiencies cannot exceed your number of fighter levels."
So here's the skinny on BOXM II
228 fighter themed feats.
Each one with a Bonus Fighter Upgrade, meaning if you used a Bonus Fighter Feat to gain the feat, it gets better after a certain level.
Each one with a Feat Boost ability. Fighters automatically get a certain number of Feat Boost Points (for lack of a better term) based on level, non-fighters can take a feat to get a boost point. Then you can use the Boost to gain a special ability from your feat. You can only do this on one particular feat once a day.
Double Feats: More impressive feats that require the fighter to use two feats at the same time to get (in BOXM every class gets a feat every level, so any level you get a Bonus Feat, you get two feats)
Uberfeats (silly name, maybe too powerful) High Level Feats that only the Fighter can get, requires you to lose a few older feats, but comes with lots of abilities and are really powerful.
Fighter Domains: I really loved the Domains in BOXM I, so it's not surprising I like these as well.
Fighters get a free domain at Level 1, and additional domains at higher levels. They represent your school of fighting, such as Agility, Dirty Fighting, Mounted Combat, Two Weapon Fighting, and Weapon and Shield.
Each one gives two abilities, one when you first get the Domain, and one after you've taken 8 feats that are related to the domain. So instead of nine specific abilities that the Arcane Schools give out, it's just a theme that your character has.
Then there is a list of anywhere from 14-20 feats for each Domain, one of which is considered the Key Feat. You don't have to take any of these feats if you don't want to and you don't gain any of them for free. However, in addition to gaining the second ability of the Domain for taking 8 of these feats, you can trade out any of them (except the Key feat, which often is a prerequisite for most of the feats anyways) you know for another feat in the Domain list. You must be able to meet all the requirements for the feat, and you must train for 1 full day to switch the feats. Once you've done this, you keep these feats until you decide to switch them again.
I will admit that some of the feats might be broken, but some of them are just plain awesome, such as feat that allows you to lower your AC to increase the AC of an ally next to you, or a feat that allows you to roll an attack to negate an incoming attack on you, or giving bonuses to allies based on level and Charisma as long they can hear/see you or following the predetermined plan you came up with earlier.
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This is a neat idea, allowing the Fighter (and only the Fighter) to trade in Heavy Armor Proficiency, Medium Armor Proficiency, Light Armor Proficiency and / or Shield Proficiency for +1 Dodge Bonuses to AC. Unfortunately, I can see some Wizard taking one level of Fighter and trading in all of his Armor/Shield feats for a +4 Dodge Bonus to AC...Easy fix: add this text: "The total dodge bonus obtained for trading in proficiencies cannot exceed your number of fighter levels."
The reason I didn't suggest this, is that I would prefer for a 1st level unarmored Fighter to be able to take advantage of the full value here, which creates a snag if he chooses his second level to be Monk or Rogue or Sorcerer or something...
On the other hand, the 1st level Fighter could just be limited to only being able to trade in one of these Armor Proficiencies / Fighter level, allowing a 1st level Fighter to trade in Hvy Armor Prof for a +1 Dodge Bonus, and still wear Lt or Med armor and tote a Shield for that level. At 2nd level, he might ditch Med Armor for another +1, 3rd Lt Armor Prof and 4th Shield, so that he'll still have the protection of armor at the beginning.
I've been trying put together some other ideas for the fighter as well. My goal has been to make something that you can apply to a 3.5 fighter as an 'add-on', without being a nightmarish process. Some of my ideas have been:
Giving fighters 4 skill points/level (mentioned everywhere);
Letting fighters be able to hand-pick a few skills to add to their skill list to customize (mentioned in this thread already);
Fleshing out a concept for 'Metacombat Feats', that are to fighters what Metamagic feats are to spellcasters. (For completeness, I think this would also require a 'Metaskill' feat selection for skill-driven classes, but I haven't played with that yet). These would not be like Bo9S abilities, but merely feats that can alter/enhance what the fighter already does - fight;
The other idea I have is the only one I have actually tried to write up, though it is far from complete. It builds upon some observations in my 'Deliberations of a Dalesman' thread by enhancing the benefits of many of the fighter bonus feats when fighters (and only fighters) select them.
This is based solely on the 3.5 SRD fighter bonus feats, and many of them are invalidated by the material in the Alphas, but it shows my process so far. A few of them are still stumping me in regards to enhancing them without 'breaking' them (Exotic Weapon Proficiency and the Power Attack chain of feats, specifically), so they are untouched as of yet.
For what it's worth, here they are (spoilered due to length):
Blind-Fight
In addition to the normal benefits of this feat, a fighter gains blindsense at a range of 5 feet. If the character is 9th level or higher, this upgrades to blindsight.
Combat Expertise
A fighter who selects this feat can gains a dodge bonus to AC equal to twice his Intelligence modifier. The penalty to his attack rolls remains unchanged.
Improved Disarm
In addition to the normal benefits of this feat, a fighter gains a bonus of +6 to disarm rolls (instead of +4), and has the option of sending the weapon to any location up to 10 feet away from the disarmed opponent if he chooses to.
Improved Feint
A fighter who selects this feat gains a competence bonus on his bluff check equal to his BAB. If the character is 9th level or higher, he may feint in combat as a free action instead of a move action.
Improved Trip
A fighter who selects this feat may make either a Strength check or Dexterity check (whichever is higher) to trip an opponent. He also gains a +4 competence bonus to all trip attempts.
Whirlwind Attack
A fighter who selects this feat can make a second attack against any opponent within reach. This attack is made at a -5 penalty.
Combat Reflexes
A fighter who selects this feat makes additional attacks of opportunity equal to 1-1/2 times his Dexterity Bonus (round down). (Alternate: A fighter is able to make two attacks of opportunity on a single opponent that provokes one from him.)
Dodge
A fighter who selects this feat applies the bonus to all opponents, rather than just one. (Alternate: keep Alpha version for everyone, but let fighters get a +3 bonus).
Mobility
A fighter who selects this feat no longer provokes attacks of opportunity unless the opponent has fighter levels equal to his own +4.
Spring Attack
A fighter who selects this feat can move up to twice their speed (in essence performing a type of hustle) instead of just his speed. (Alternate: A fighter may perform a full attack action while using this feat, instead of an attack action). If the character is 9th level or higher, he can use this feat even while wearing heavy armor.
Exotic Weapon Proficiency
A fighter who selects this feat gains two exotic weapon proficiencies instead of one.(Not sure on this, seems too much)
Improved Critical
A fighter who selects this feat triples the threat range of the chosen weapon, instead of doubling it.
Improved Initiative
A fighter who selects this feat gains a +6 bonus on initiative checks instead of +4.
Improved Shield Bash
A fighter who selects this feat gains a +4 bonus to his attack rolls with a shield.
Improved Unarmed Strike
In addition to the normal benefits of this feat, a fighter does increasingly more damage with his unarmed attacks, as shown below:
Deflect Arrows
A fighter who selects this feat may deflect up to 2 weapons per round.
Improved Grapple
In addition to the normal benefits of this feat, a fighter gains a +6 bonus on all grapple checks instead of +4.
Snatch Arrows
A fighter who selects this feat may snatch up to 2 weapons per round.
Stunning Fist
A fighter who selects this feat applies his Con modifier to the Fortitude save (instead of his Wis modifier). Also, he gains additional uses at every 3 levels instead of 4.
Mounted Combat
In addition to the normal benefits of this feat, a fighter gains a competence bonus on his Ride check to negate a hit to his mount. This bonus is equal to +1 for every 4 fighter levels he possesses.
Mounted Archery
A fighter who selects this feat halves the mounted attack penalties again (-1 if the mount is taking a double move, and -2 if it is running).
Ride-By Attack
A fighter who selects this feat can move up to quadruple his mounted speed instead of double speed. (Alternate: A fighter may perform a full attack action instead of an attack action while using this feat).
Spirited Charge
A fighter who selects this feat does triple damage with a melee weapon on a mounted charge, or quadruple damage with a lance.
Trample
A fighter who selects this feat is able to coax his mount into making a second hoof attack against any foe he knocks down, at the same bonus as the first attack.
Point Blank Shot
A fighter who selects this feat gets a +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls instead of +1.
Far Shot
A fighter who selects this feat doubles the range increment of a projectile weapon, and quadruples the range of a thrown weapon.
Precise Shot
In addition to the normal benefits of this feat, a fighter gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls made against opponents in melee. This bonus stacks with that gained from Point Blank Shot.
Rapid Shot
A fighter who selects this feat reduces the attack penalty to -1.
Manyshot
A fighter who selects this feat reduces all the attack penalties of firing multiple arrows by half (i.e. -2 for 2 arrows, -3 for 3 arrows, -4 for 4 arrows, etc.)
Shot on the Run
A fighter who selects this feat can move up to twice their speed (in essence performing a type of hustle) instead of just his speed. (Alternate: A fighter may perform a full attack action while using this feat, instead of an attack action).
Improved Precise Shot
A fighter who selects this feat can attempt to make an attack against a target that has total cover, but the target gains a +10 bonus to its AC against the attack. A fighter can make an attack against a target with total concealment with only a 20% miss chance (instead of 50%).
Power Attack
Undecided
Cleave
Undecided
Great Cleave
Undecided
Improved Bull Rush
Undecided
Improved Overrun
Undecided
Improved Sunder
Undecided
Quick Draw
In addition to the normal benefits of this feat, a fighter gains a +2 bonus to initiative checks. This bonus stacks with the Improved Initiative feat.
Rapid Reload
In addition to the normal benefits of this feat, a fighter may reload a heavy crossbow as a free action instead of a move action.
Two-Weapon Fighting
A fighter who selects this feat reduces the fighting penalties by 1, to a minimum of -1 for wielding a light off-hand weapon.
Two-Weapon Defense
A fighter who selects this feat doubles the AC bonuses it provides (+2 AC if wielding 2 weapons, +4 if fighting defensively or using the total defense action).
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
A fighter who selects this feat is able to wield two one-handed weapons as if he were wielding a light weapon in his off-hand.
Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
A fighter who selects this feat reduces the fighting penalties by 1, to a minimum of 0 for wielding a light off-hand weapon.
Weapon Finesse
In addition to the normal benefits of this feat, a fighter may use his Dexterity modifier for damage (instead of Strength).
Weapon Focus
This feat remains unchanged.
Weapon Specialization
This feat remains unchanged.
Greater Weapon Focus
This feat remains unchanged.
Greater Weapon Specialization
This feat remains unchanged.
I tried to be fairly conservative in the enhanced benefits, so some of these may need to be altered when compared to what is in the Alpha2.
The idea has flaws, I'm know, but I hope it can help generate further brainstorming and more ideas. If so then it has done some good :)
Your Friendly Neighborhood Dalesman
"Bringing Big D**n Justice to the Bad Guys Since 1369 DR"
On thing about multiclassing that SAGA did nicely was:
If you take a level in a new class, you may choose ONLY ONE of the new classes starting proficiencies (it was starting feats, but who cares).
I am actually quite happy about the bunch of ideas we have collected so far. This will help Jason for sure.
Let me try to some the most appealing up (appealing = easy to use & great idea):
- Weapon Focus Swapping: (Only) the fighter can swap his feats that are specialized on one specific weapon. (1 hour in the morning is a good one)
- Trade in Proficiencies: The fighter can swap (armor) proficiencies for other feats (which ones have to be made clear) to push light armored fighters (Swap one proficiency per level is a good one - and NO swap back!)
- Make Armor Training improve Max.Dex aswell
- Increased number of combat feats per round (or get rid of the mechanic all together)
- Height of Battle: This is actually a GREAT idea!
I'm sure I missed some, but these are the best in my POV.
Again THANKS TO EVERYONE!
- DD
Right. But I left this one out since the skill list isn't fixed yet. And if the skills condense even further 2 skill points might JUST be enough (but I don't think so).
What SHOULD be added nonetheless are AT LEAST the following class skills:
Acrobatics, Heal and Perception
Maybe I'm off the mark here, but there seems to be a dearth of decent high level feats for fighters. I would suggest that creating some of these might be handy.
Interestingly, shortly after contributing to this thread, I ended up in another THINK TANK type thread about feats. We're looking at a potential core mechanic set for feats that might come very close to giving the Fighter the required parity all by itself.
Suggestion: Feats that *Matter* At Higher Levels, Too
The core idea is to make all basic feats "feat trees" whose bonuses scale with level, just as Paizo's Armor Training and Weapon Training do. In fact, if the checkout goes well, my strong suggestion would be to implement stuff like Height of Battle as a bonus class ability instead, and make Armor & Weapon Training into auto-scaling feats like the rest.
Fighters, since they have many feats to use, would find that at higher levels they would get a lot of options that other PCs would not - and this would actually matter all the way through their careers, instead of the 3.5 feats that are mostly ineffectual or even a waste at higher levels of play. That's actually a big part of the fighter's problem, since feats are a fighter's main power. Stuff like the Warblade was meant to solve that with an auto-scaling martial powers mechanic, and many people seemed to like it. Could it work more generally?
This change would go a long way toward balancing fighters powers. AND, if it works out, would give us a core mechanic for feats that would be consistent and in sync with other aspects of the game, from Domains & Bloodlines to Prestige Classes (check it out and see what I mean).
So far, so good in our testing. But... not declaring victory just yet. We're now doing build-outs and examples to see how it works, is it broken, etc. I can tell you, DracoDruid, that if you want 3 good saves, I've just done an exercise that shows you can get this for your fighter. With 2 feats. Which you might well choose to spend on other things, once you see how this works... but the point is, you'd have that choice.
I'd be interested in feedback, thoughts, or any help folks want to offer over there.
I forgot one major thing!
Question: WHY on earth (or any other parallel dimension) does the BARBARIAN AND the ROGUE get Uncanny Dodge BUT NOT THE FIGHTER!?!?!?!
If there should be one class competent in managing the heat of battle it would be the fighter, damn it! (And Uncanny Dodge is exactly that)
Yeah yeah, the barbarian is supposed to have those "feral instincts" but what is he actually doing in battle? He flies into his rage and smashes everybody around (even taking -2 AC!). What's that to do with keeping an eye everywhere and behind you?
Second: The Rogue is all about getting out of trouble. Yeah, yeah. She got superb reflexes, evasion and usually got a high dex too. BUT why is the rogue supposed to be able to effectivly fight against flanking opponents?
Sorry, but this just makes no sense.
I know BAR and ROG won't loose their abilities, but please, PLEASE give the fighter the same abilities!
EDIT:
Oh and one thing. If it doesn't exist already, I really would like to see the fighter being able to give other characters fighting the same enemy get the benefit of some Combat Maneuvers (especially Feint!).
I see it like that: The group stumbles across a big monster. The fighter marches forwards to face it right up front, defending against it attacks. Meanwhile the rogue vanishes in the shadows and sneaks the monster from behind. Just as the rogue is in position, the fighter tricks the monster so that the rogue can hit it's vital spot and finishes it.
I think this would be pretty cool.
Big thanks to all the thread participants. Here's what I synthesized...
THE FIGHTER, RELOADED...
Hit Die: d10.
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.Fighter Core Class Skills:
The fighter's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha OR Str), Jump (Str), Knowledge (tactics and war) (Wis), Profession (Wis), Spot (Wis).Fighter Individual Add-on Class Skills - pick 4:
Balance (Dex) Climb (Str), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (geography, local, nobility & royalty) (Int), Listen (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Rope (Dex).....(SOME MORE GREAT STUFF)
Wow. I like this build a lot. That might be the best class build I have seen come out of the WoTC boards. It is flexible enough to allow for both focused builds (all archery) or more generalized builds and yet still be effective either way. I am definitely going to try this one out. The only thing I would add is some of the maneuvers from Book of Iron Might. I really think the fighter should be able to do things like slow, stun, or blind enemies for brief periods of time. I am impressed by how good of a fighter class that is.
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I would like to give a "Point Pool" to fighters, too. Just as barbarians have Rage Points, wouldn't it be mechanically consistent and make fighters more "versatile" if they had 'Adrenalin Points' that they can use to activate class abilities? For example:
* Bonus to your Initiative (+4?)
* Temporary Hit Points (2 HP/LVL?) for 1 round
* +2 to attacks for one round
* An extra attack or move-equivalent action
* If you charge you can double (or, with 2-H weapons, triple) your STR bonus to damage
* A bonus to your Fort Save (+4) for one round
* +2 to your STR, DEX or CON for one round
The bonuses should matter (and perhaps even scale up with your level?) but not too much, because the fighter gets so many Bonus Feats.
Or, another possibility is the "Floating Pool" idea that someone (Epic Meepo? Stephen?) posted, which would enable you to "shift" a positive modifier between BAB, AC and damage.
Until I see some play-testing, a 3 for 1 power attack option is a non-starter for me. I'd also be concerned about encouraging 2 weapon and bow fighting, as that combined with the Scout makes the ranger not a viable class anymore.
Wow. I like this build a lot. That might be the best class build I have seen come out of the WoTC boards. It is flexible enough to allow for both focused builds (all archery) or more generalized builds and yet still be effective either way. I am definitely going to try this one out. The only thing I would add is some of the maneuvers from Book of Iron Might. I really think the fighter should be able to do things like slow, stun, or blind enemies for brief periods of time. I am impressed by how good of a fighter class that is.
Thanks, Aaron. It was very flexible for specialized roles as well as a range of useful NPCs. It also held up well to build testing at both low and high levels, and play testing.
I don't have the Book of Iron Might, but it sounds like its options might be best as additional Mastery of Battle options. Which, really, are the sorts of useful things fighter combat feats ought to be, and generally are not.
Katman, thanks for bringing this build to the boards here. I'm really digging the Height of Battle ability. I'm picturing a fighter stabbing his sword into the heart of some monstrous foe, then plunging it deeper with a burst of strength to finish the job. Cool stuff!
One additional ability idea: Don't know if I got it from somewhere else so I won't say I had it myself:
- At ??th level the fighter learns to act right the moment he is needed. Once per day/encounter/??? the fighter can delay his initiative until some foe announces an action. Right than, the fighter may interupt this foe as if he had taken the ready action.
The fighter may use this ability more than once every ?? level.