Let in all the books, but install a house rule of no more than two classes for any given character. That is either two base classes, or a base class and a PrC. This does limit some fun stuff (Mystic Theurge) but it also breaks most of the silly power builds.
|
Let in all the books, but install a house rule of no more than two classes for any given character. That is either two base classes, or a base class and a PrC. This does limit some fun stuff (Mystic Theurge) but it also breaks most of the silly power builds.
I get where you are coming from. The only difference in my campaign is no more than 3 classes, and that is specifically so that people can do Mystic Theurge. My philosophy is that none of the base classes or PRC's in th core 3 are very abusable for a power gamer on their own. So I want my player to have access to them. Beyond that though, I do limit it. The only book summarily banned from all my campaigns is the Book of Broken (also called the Tome of Battle or the Book of Nine Swords by Others).
|
|
I get where you are coming from. The only difference in my campaign is no more than 3 classes, and that is specifically so that people can do Mystic Theurge. My philosophy is that none of the base classes or PRC's in th core 3 are very abusable for a power gamer on their own. So I want my player to have access to them.
Oh, I like that. So far none of my players have had their PCs multi-class but this will be a great houserule if anyone thinks of dipping.
|
Let in all the books, but install a house rule of no more than two classes for any given character. That is either two base classes, or a base class and a PrC. This does limit some fun stuff (Mystic Theurge) but it also breaks most of the silly power builds.
Gaaaasspppp!!!!
<clutches chest>
Fading awaaaayyyy......
Tycho (Wiz 6/Master of Arcane Order 5/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7/prospective Archmage...)
Gaaaasspppp!!!!<clutches chest>
Fading awaaaayyyy......
Tycho (Wiz 6/Master of Arcane Order 5/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7/prospective Archmage...)
Quick - get the scroll of Heal Cheese out!
Hang on...
*cough* *splutter* *gasp*
Gah! Cursed 2 level paladin dip! I'll have to use it on me then - sorry Tycho. Mind you, I think you'd need the Heal Cheese, Greater spell ;-)
...that's better!
Kaile (Cleric 7/Paladin 2/Shining Blade 9)
PS: just to keep it on topic, I'm sure you can use more than two classes without cheesemongering - what I use is to look at how the class interacts with other classes, and if one says 'this class loves paladins' and the other says 'this class hates paladins' then it's pretty obvious they don't work together. That way you avoid the hexblade/occult slayer absurd combo...
Lets face it, there are basically two kinds of people in this gaming world...those prefer to keep Psionics out of their game and those who are Nazi's that worship pagan gods and do bad things to children, moms, and dogs. These people want the terrorists to win, IMO.
Ok just kidding, psions aren't as craptastic as they used to be to me...Ebbbbberrrron changed my opinion of them slightly.
Mainly just too weird and complicated and different. They'd be fine if you based a campaign on it probably. But if one of six people is "incarnumy" and no one else knows what the heck it is... Just makes things more complicated/go slower.
I respectfully disagree. In my opinion, and at my table, this is only an issue if the DM is included in the group of folks who don't know what is going on, and to be honest a DM needs to be, once again in my opinion, at least familiar with what is being used at the table.
Incarnum does provide some difficulty flavor wise, but mechanically isn't really all that obtrusive.
Binding and Truenaming are somewhat more transparent, I think. Shadow Magic suffers from being suboptimal, even with Mouseferatu's post-publication fixes, and also being tricky flavor/fluff-wise.
In any event, for my campaigns, if it is in the SRD, and by extension available at www.d20srd.org it is considered fair game (caveat being a pc must always meet pre-requisites).
I've house-ruled all prc's that advance casting can advance all types (arcane, divine, even psionic manifesting). So your psion can take levels of loremaster and still advance their manifesting, same with a ranger taking levels of the Slayer PrC.
I treat PHB2 as a secondary source for feats. Spell Compendium material is available via the researching a new spell rules in the PHB.
Material from all other sources, including complete books, is considered on a one-on-one basis. I tend to allow more than I disallow. My primary concern is actually making sure that material is equally available to all players, thus the emphasis on the SRD and material found at d20srd.org.
|
My gaming group is discussing what sources to use when we start Curse of the Crimson Throne. We're going to use the Pathfinder RPG rules of course. But then, the question came up about which other 3.5e books to allow? We've historically allowed "all WotC books" which has ended up in quite a mess.
Here's my cut at rough classifications of the extant player-oriented 3.5e books. What do other Pathfinders think?
The True Scriptures
The Old Testament
The first "Complete" series (Warrior, Divine, Arcane, Adventurer) -
good additions, needed some more p-classes etc.
Tome of Battle: the Book of Nine Swords - just too much fun to leave out. If it and SW:Saga were really guiding 4e more than mini gaming and DDI were, I might have gone ot it instead.The New Testament
Frostburn, Sandstorm, Stormwrack, Cityscape, Dungeonscape
Book of Exalted Deeds / Book of Vile Darkness
Libris Mortis, Lords of Madness
Heroes of Battle, Heroes of Horror
Planar Handbook
IMO, all 12 of these add flavor and distinctive things
for given campaigns without being overpowered. (except vow of poverty).Apocryphal Writings - of questionable power level
Player's Handbook II, Unearthed Arcana - yay substitution levels!
The second "Complete" series (Mage, Scoundrel, Champion) - this one goes to 11
The "Races of" series (Stone, Destiny, Wild, Dragon) - bah
Miniatures Handbook - more 3.0, mostly superseded by various 3.5es
Spell Compendium - feel the power!
Magic Item Compendium - more power power powerFalse Prophets - ultra cheeeeeeeze
Expanded Psionics Handbook - like magic, but better!
Draconomicon, Dragon Magic - fetishist fodder
Weapons of Legacy - actually more gimped than powerful.
Magic of Incarnum, Tome of Magic - no
Drow of the Underdark- spare me
All Eberron Sourcebooks- besides power, not appropriate for a diff campaign world
All Forgotten Realms Sourcebooks - the place where all the worst (aka
best) builds on the Wizards CharOp boards derive their power...
Here are my two silvers,
Cute. I like the Old Testament New Testament and False prophets (cant spell apocrypha but my computer can) division of the books.I have a very simple policy if it is in the PHB the DMG or the Monster Manuel it is in.
Anything else is extra. Anything else requires my approval to enter the game. I need to read the text from a book first. (Yes I want my players to by books not download free PDFs and choke this industry). Usually if it is from a Wotc book I let it in. I am extremely wary of the Exalted book of Deeds because in my opinion it is filled with cheese and the Book of Unearthed arcane, is full of great ideas, I prefer to reserve them for a variant game.
Anyways that tends to keep things simple. I know everyone has his or her own opinion of what is balanced and what isn’t. Within my group of gaming friends there is disagreement as to what is balanced, cheese, and simply broken.
There we are, that is my opinion for what it is worth. Hope it helps.
Hmm...
Have to give this some thought honestly.
The Complete books are in. Not wholesale. I reserve the right to veto anything that's not in the main book (at the moment the PHB, but in a little over a year the PRPG). But most of the Complete books will be ok, as long as the players run it by me.
The Races of... books I'm a bit more picky over, but players may choose stuff out of them with approval.
Straight setting books are only allowed if I'm running that particular setting. This means no Artificer's in Forgotten Realms, no gun mages in Eberron, no shadow magic in the Iron Kingdoms and so on. If I'm running in a particular setting (and not my home brew) the players may only choose things from the setting books on approval.
Everything else, on the player's end, is only approved by me.
As a GM I reserve the right to use anything in my arsenal. (Traps & Treachery comes to mind right way... as do all the various monster books). However, I am obliged to only choose things that fit the feel of the campaign and add to all (the players and myself) enjoyment. Essentially, if I ban something due to power level for a character, I will not use it for an NPC later. If something doesn't fit the theme of the campaign setting, then I am also obliged not to use it.
So... I guess as for as this goes, I'm a Unitarian Universalist: I don't have a set of canon. If it works, then I'll use it.
|
I've allowed any and everything, banning little. More so, I've found that more SRD stuff has caused broken effects than anything else.
The only thing I ever had to ban was paladin's, because of RP problems inherent in the class. Oh, and the unearthed Arcana has been limited in every game I've ran, as well as Book of Exalted Deeds.
P.S. I know I'm a little late, but I'm a fan of both Tomb of Magic and Book of Nine swords.... though the former seems a little weak, and the latter has one not fun class (Swordmage).
|
Basically anything not in what I consider the main books:
PH,DMG,MM must be given the green light by me for use.
Now with that I usually say right off the bat what is open content for the game: Complete: Arcana, Divine, Warrior are always ok.
The other complete books, PH2, Unearthed Arcana and 9swords I cherry pick from and let a few things by. The Dragon Compendium is another one I like to pick from.
A new one I want to try are the feats Malhavoc's book of experimental might. I like the idea behind them.
All of the completes (Complete Psionics is mostly no though, god that was a terrible book, and not in a overpowered way), Races of books (Including Eberron and Faerun, I mix and match), Sandstorm, Stormwrack, Frostburn, Book of Nine Swords, Expanded Psionics Handbook, Tome of Magic (I love this book so much). Just about anything is open with me including things from setting books.
All so one thing I'm seeing is alot of anti Bo9S going on and i gotta ask why? That book actually made melee classes and the like viable. Its all perfectly balanced and if the fluff bugs you it can be easily changed.
My policy is that anything in the SRD + Psionics SRD is pre-approved, but anything else needs to get the DM's explicit O.K. I'm willing to approve pretty much anything, but I reserve the right to add some house rules (e.g. Polymorph, Divine Metamagic, Planar Binding).
All so one thing I'm seeing is alot of anti Bo9S going on and i gotta ask why? That book actually made melee classes and the like viable. Its all perfectly balanced and if the fluff bugs you it can be easily changed.
Fluff can make or break a splatbook - incarnum is one most people won't allow because it's too "weird", psionics falls into the same trap as well. Bo9S has too much of a wuxia/martial arts/anime feel for most folks (me included) and we don't want those styles in our games, no matter how good the mechanics are.
"It can be changed" is true, but its WORK, which most DM's are already inundated with. If the fluff won't work out of the box, is it worth it to delve into it only to find out you don't agree with the mechanics as well?
An example - What if all wizards generated extreme heat with the casting of each spell? Mages couldn't wear armor when casting spells because magical spells would cause it to become searing hot? On top of it, there are spells and abilities that take advantage of this heat - fiery auras, fire shield, burning touch, etc. It fits the fluff of why wizards don't wear armor, but how many people would enjoy this? How many DMs would want to ripping this "fluff/mechanics" out vs. disallowing it completely?
BTW, S&S's Scarred Lands campaign world uses this method of casting magic.
I would just like to throw in some great 3rd Party books that I have used heavily.
Malhavoc Press
Books of Eldritch Might
Books of Hallowed Might
Beyond Countless Doorways
Legacy of Dragons
Ptolus
Green Ronin
Advanced Players Manual
Advanced Bestiary
AEG
Rokugan (to expand oriental adventures)
Necromancer Games
Tome of Horrors
Fantasy Flight Games
Traps and Treachery I and II
I would probably permit all 'core' (in this case meaning setting-neutral) 3.5E books except for the Book of Nine Swords and Dungeonscape (the latter due to to factotum).
I might also permit some Forgotten Realms stuff if asked by the players.
The True Scriptures
The Old Testament
The first "Complete" series (Warrior, Divine, Arcane, Adventurer) -
good additions, needed some more p-classes etc.
Tome of Battle: the Book of Nine Swords - just too much fun to leave out. If it and SW:Saga were really guiding 4e more than mini gaming and DDI were, I might have gone ot it instead.False Prophets - ultra cheeeeeeeze
Expanded Psionics Handbook - like magic, but better!
Draconomicon, Dragon Magic - fetishist fodder
Weapons of Legacy - actually more gimped than powerful.
Magic of Incarnum, Tome of Magic - no
Drow of the Underdark- spare me
All Eberron Sourcebooks- besides power, not appropriate for a diff campaign world
All Forgotten Realms Sourcebooks - the place where all the worst (aka
best) builds on the Wizards CharOp boards derive their power...
I find it interesting that you consider Tome of Battle a necessity but consider the Forgotten Realms sourcebooks total Cheese. I'd have to argue. I've used Tome of BAttle many times. Yes, it is nice, but it is more Cheddar than most FR sources. If for no other reason than TOB is CORE Classes not Prestige Classes. Any cheese, outside of perhaps individual spells, that you find in FR sources, is in PRESTIGE classes, something the TOB classes don;t need.
Personally, my group is of the opinion that anything outside of the core books (DMG, PHB, MMI and now PFRPG) is at GM's discretion. We've used classes and such from everything ranging from Tome of Battle to Eberron, Forgotten Realms, Drgaonlance, Arcana Unearthed, and others. It all depends on what you want and if you can keep it balanaced
|
|
If anything BoNS should be burned at the stake.And to further agree... yeah, Book of Nine Swords is not for me. Pass.Ouch. I'm the odd man out. I really liked Bo9S. A new flavor to old combat, albeit a tad cumbersome.
I also like BoNS.
I'm an Earthdawn fan, so this to me reminds me of adepts, mystical warriors.
|
|
All of the completes (Complete Psionics is mostly no though, god that was a terrible book, and not in a overpowered way), Races of books (Including Eberron and Faerun, I mix and match), Sandstorm, Stormwrack, Frostburn, Book of Nine Swords, Expanded Psionics Handbook, Tome of Magic (I love this book so much). Just about anything is open with me including things from setting books.
All so one thing I'm seeing is alot of anti Bo9S going on and i gotta ask why? That book actually made melee classes and the like viable. Its all perfectly balanced and if the fluff bugs you it can be easily changed.
My biggest beef with Bo9S is the complete lack of ERRATA. WotC didn't bother to follow up with this book at all. I mean, look at Superior Unarmed Strike. I guess a pixie can do medium sized damage. Or how about Shadow Blade. I know that the feat description overrides the table description, but where is the ERRATA? If I were skimming the table looking for a new feat, I might just take the feat, skim the entry and not notice that is doesn't mention that you replace STR with DEX.
But it doesn't end with Bo9S. Most books WotC released in the last year were practically shoved out as fast as possible to free up resources to develop 4e. Not the books' fault, but its enough for me to ban it.
Here! Here! Bo9S or BS^9 as we call it is th eonly book completely banned from all the campaigns in our group (6). We'd love to find a way to make it not broken, but warblades just ruined it for us.
What are you talking about? Theres nothing as broken in Bo9S (Okay Time Stands Still can be) that isn't at least twice as broken in the Core rules.
I usually don't allow anything from other books. There are the races native to the setting and a (limited) selection of classes and prestige classes that are common to the lands the campaign is set in. The players are free to chose from all those as long as their choice of characters keeps party infighting down to a reasonable amount, depending on the campaign. (I always have the player discuss what type of party they want to play before chosing their characters.)
Feats and Spells they've found somewhere usually get my approval as long as they don't allow characters to do stuff that the classes aren't intended to be able to (like supernatural abilities for barbarians, or healing spells for arcane casters).
Since almost none of any of my players ever owned any splatbooks (or even core books), that never became an issue of disagreement from their side.
As a gm, I do like Frostburn, Heroes of Horror, and Lords of Madness, but even then I much more often make up house rules inspired by these books and rarely use any rules from them as they are.
|
|
What are you talking about? Theres nothing as broken in Bo9S (Okay Time Stands Still can be) that isn't at least twice as broken in the Core rules.
Here! Here! Bo9S or BS^9 as we call it is th eonly book completely banned from all the campaigns in our group (6). We'd love to find a way to make it not broken, but warblades just ruined it for us.
Agreed. Having had players use everything from PHB only to BoNS to Tome of Magic/Incarnum, none have ever surpassed the party wizard in power. The only one who even looked to have the potential was the time someone played a Binder (albeit briefly). I liked the book so much that I decided to make a villain using the same rules. After one encounter, the players decided that the class was so evil it should never again be mentioned, and that was that. Other classes that have looked pretty deadly are the Warlock (nigh-infinite magic item capability, something the Binder shares), various ubercharger builds utilizing cavalier, spirited charge, and high threat ranges, and the Duskblade.
All this has served to prove to me that almost any rule can be broken (though some are definitely easier than others) and I rely on my players to not be munchkins too much. I suppose if anything truly horrible came up I'd veto it, but it hasn't come to that yet.
Still, I'd endorse a three-class-only rule.
I've gotten a lot of mileage out of the following books:
Fantasy Flight Games:
City Works
Traps & Treachery 1 & 2
Path of Shadow
Path of the Sword
Spells & Spellcraft
WotC:
Heroes of Horror
The entire Complete Series
Expanded Psionics Handbook
I imagine they would all do well in Pathfinder, though the FFG books are all 3.0 and need to be tweaked.
I also pull from the Dragon magazine articles as I need to.
I do like parts of PHB2 such as the fears, spells and background ideas but not the new classes. With the Pathfinder RPG they are unnecessary.
The environment books are more or less essential, but more for the GM than the players.
The Complete Books are handy but not needed. Although I will concur that the second string of books like Scoundrel were a little better. Personally I found Scoundrel to be VERY nice, possibly my favorite of them all.
Critter books are critter books, no matter who makes them, a GM can never have too many monsters. Even if you never use half of them, just the option alone is worth having.
Although I wish I knew where I shoved my Sword and Sorcery books, especially Relics and Rituals 2. Some nice spells in there. I know, a few of them are mine.