As an option instead of extra starting hit points, what if the Disabled track was extended?
As it stands, a character is only Disabled exactly at 0 Hit Points, but being disabled is really a cool status to have. It seems a shame to have it only come up so rarely.
Extending it would just make it come up a bit more often, with more effect at lower levels, where it would provide a similar "buffer zone" as adding additional HPs to starting characters, but it would do so without any effect on backwards compatibility. Hit Point totals would still be used exactly as is.
The rule could be implemented in different ways similar to the current HP ideas.
It could be a flat change; Disabled from 0 to -4 HPs, Dying at -5 to -9, and Dead at -10.
It could be based on Con. Use the same base as above, only adjust by the Con Modifier. A -2 Con modifier would be Disabled from 0 to -2, and Dying at -3 to -9. A +4 Con modifier would be Disabled from 0 to -8, Dying only at -9. -9 would have to be the limit with a character who would be Disabled up until the point they died.
It could be a Racial effect like, Disabled until: Frail (-2), Normal (-4), Tough (-6) or -3/-4/-5 if the 2 point spread is too much. This could replace Orc Ferocity, or if another implementation is used, Orc Ferocity could just extended their Disabled Track by a point or two.
It could be based on starting class (similar to doubling starting HPs). Since all hit dice are by default even-numbered, the best best would probably be to use half their initial hit die as the negative value. So a wizard would be Disabled from 0 to -3, while a barbarian would be Disabled from 0 to -6. This makes the choice of starting class more important. A Fighter/Sorcerer who started as a Fighter is going to be slightly different from one that started as a Sorcerer (able to act until -5 HPs instead of -3).
Anyway, there are lots of ways to implement it, but I think the effect is worth considering. It's not addditional HPs or any change in HPs, but it has a similar effect of giving characters a bit more of a buffer zone especially at lower levels, where they can still do something even if knocked below 0 hit points.
Have disabled run from -1 to -con score. Fighter with 18 con would be disabled at -17 and die at -18.
As an option instead of extra starting hit points, what if the Disabled track was extended?
As it stands, a character is only Disabled exactly at 0 Hit Points, but being disabled is really a cool status to have. It seems a shame to have it only come up so rarely.
I really like this idea a lot.
Rather than have bonus HP at first level, we can extend the disabled status range.
I think this idea deserves consideration.
EDIT: If monsters also had this ability it would help upbalance older 3.5 material in an easy and fun way.
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As an option instead of extra starting hit points, what if the Disabled track was extended?
As it stands, a character is only Disabled exactly at 0 Hit Points, but being disabled is really a cool status to have. It seems a shame to have it only come up so rarely.
Extending it would just make it come up a bit more often, with more effect at lower levels, where it would provide a similar "buffer zone" as adding additional HPs to starting characters, but it would do so without any effect on backwards compatibility. Hit Point totals would still be used exactly as is.
The rule could be implemented in different ways similar to the current HP ideas.
It could be a flat change; Disabled from 0 to -4 HPs, Dying at -5 to -9, and Dead at -10.
It could be based on Con. Use the same base as above, only adjust by the Con Modifier. A -2 Con modifier would be Disabled from 0 to -2, and Dying at -3 to -9. A +4 Con modifier would be Disabled from 0 to -8, Dying only at -9. -9 would have to be the limit with a character who would be Disabled up until the point they died.
It could be a Racial effect like, Disabled until: Frail (-2), Normal (-4), Tough (-6) or -3/-4/-5 if the 2 point spread is too much. This could replace Orc Ferocity, or if another implementation is used, Orc Ferocity could just extended their Disabled Track by a point or two.
It could be based on starting class (similar to doubling starting HPs). Since all hit dice are by default even-numbered, the best best would probably be to use half their initial hit die as the negative value. So a wizard would be Disabled from 0 to -3, while a barbarian would be Disabled from 0 to -6. This makes the choice of starting class more important. A Fighter/Sorcerer who started as a Fighter is going to be slightly different from one that started as a Sorcerer (able to act until -5 HPs instead of -3).
Anyway, there are lots of ways to implement it, but I think the effect is worth considering. It's not addditional HPs or any change in HPs, but it has...
Con based + racial effect sounds fine to me. I like this option more than upgrading the starting HPs, actually.
Way too many mechanics to replace the simple, effective option of a one-time addition of hit points at 1st-level.
Old Nay-sayer! I am totally pro!
Disabled just ocures as often as staggered - basiclly never.
So disabled from 0 to -Con would be great.
Only on point below - dying.
But instead of the loss of hit point dying rule just use the Fort-Save variant!
Way too many mechanics to replace the simple, effective option of a one-time addition of hit points at 1st-level.
Well, that kind of confuses me as it's an existing mechanic in the system. The only difference is changing when the pre-existing mechanic takes effect. If my own post was confusing, all the options listed for how to implement it were just that, options; just like the different options on how to determine adding more HPs to all the characters.
Whatever choice might be made would still be a one-time thing as much as adding hit points would be. Potentially less in fact if it's simply a change in the rule as opposed to a change to every character.
To me, it just seems simpler to implement in all uses of the game rather than for instance, having to change the listed HPs for every character used from a prior released product to account for hit point alteration.
How about any bonus HP that a character gets is instead the amount of negative HP that the character could be at and still be disabled as opposed to dying.
Example:
Nyles has +1 HP for favored class (level one sorcerer) and +6 HP for a racial bonus (human) so Nyles can reach -7 and still be disabled rather than dying.
We should probably change death to 10 less than their disabled range as well. In this case -17 for Nyles.
What do you think? Keeps players alive and adds a buffer of excitement and intensity when things are rough. They'd thank their lucky stars when the cleric blows one of her many positive energy channels as well.
How about any bonus HP that a character gets is instead the amount of negative HP that the character could be at and still be disabled as opposed to dying.
Example:
Nyles has +1 HP for favored class (level one sorcerer) and +6 HP for a racial bonus (human) so Nyles can reach -7 and still be disabled rather than dying.
We should probably change death to 10 less than their disabled range as well. In this case -17 for Nyles.
What do you think? Keeps players alive and adds a buffer of excitement and intensity when things are rough. They'd thank their lucky stars when the cleric blows one of her many positive energy channels as well.
I like it it ALOT! I think Nervous Jester started out with a solid idea and you helped make it stronger.
But....I think this idea is a MUST playtest idea. We need to get more than a few people playtesting this to see if playing at disabled from 0 till -17(or whatever) is a fun mechanic. It sounds great for drama, excitement and enhancement of the heroic struggle, but it will be the playabilty of this idea that will make it or break it.
I'll try it on my Monday night group and hopefully have some solid details for everyone later in the week.
Yeah I'm gonna try it out too with a low level adventure. I'm totally glad Nervous Jester brought this idea up :)
disabled from 0 till -17(or whatever)
Slight modification. Nyles would be disabled at 0 to -7 and then dying at -8 and dead at -17.
Upon further thought, here is another similar method:
Nyles is a level one human fighter.
10HP = Standard starting HP (max)
+1HP = Favored Class
+6HP = Racial Bonus
So Nyles has 10HP with a bonus of +7HP
A chart of his HP could look like this:
10 - Alive
9
8
7
6
5
4
3
2
1
0 - Disabled
0 - This area of 7 additional zeros would be a buffer zone where the character is disabled
0
0
0
0
0
0
-1 - Dying
-2
-3
-4
-5
-6
-7
-8
-9
-10 - Dead
So if Nyles takes between 10 and 17 points of damage, he would be at 0 HP and disabled. At that point if he takes any strenuous action, he would lose one HP (now at -1HP) and become dying.
This would help compatibility since -10 is still dead.
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That might make it a bit confusing if you start healing then. When at -2 you'd need 9hp to be restored to .. 0 or 1? It might be a bit hard to give damage too.
I wouldn't find it all that terrible having "Max hp", "disabled", "dying", and "dead" fields in my character sheet. With luck you'll never have to bother looking at the three latter.
When at -2 you'd need 9hp to be restored to .. 0 or 1?
-2 + 9 = 7HP :)
Maybe the disabled zone would look more like this:
10
9
8
7
6
5
4
3
2
1
0 [][][][][][][] .. seven checkboxes so its more obvious that they aren't HP at all?
-1
-2
-3
-4
-5
-6
-7
-8
-9
-10
EDIT: .. on second thought that would really break healing. Yeah they'd need to be HP.
when at -2 with 7 bonus disabled HP, you'd need 9 HP to be at 0 :)
Another EDIT: How about having those special HP healed last? Once you are healed to full, then those HP start healing .. then healing would work just fine. Alright .. no more posting for me today. Resting instead.
I considered the approach of adding additional negative hit points, but I personally decided against it for simplicity and compatibility issues.
Giving additional hit points, even if limited, is still adding extra hit points. In fact, it becomes a new way to add hit points that instead of being a positive values are a negative or "null" value.
By the original suggestion, hit points and all related effects (such as healing) work pretty much the same way. -10 is still d-e-d, dead, and positive hit points are still figured the same way.
The only difference is either a static or variable alteration of the point at which Disabled applies before a character is Dying or Dead.
In essence, it only grants more functionality to pre-existing hit points that every character has in the system already.
In that, I think it can easily handle two main listed desired features; to make 1st level characters "a bit more durable" and retaining compatibility with older products.
Thanks to everyone who commented on the idea. If nothing else, I can enjoy the feeling of proposing a change with little dissent against it (which feels a bit like saying, "At least it can't get any worse"). ;)
To make it simple :
HP < Negative Con modifier : Disabled
(ex: -5/Con 18)
HP < Negative Con score : Dead
(ex: -19/Con 18)
To make it simple :
HP < Negative Con modifier : Disabled
(ex: -5/Con 18)HP < Negative Con score : Dead
(ex: -19/Con 18)
Problem is, that doesn't really fit the criteria of making all 1st level characters a bit tougher unless they all are guaranteed a Con of 10 or higher. Anyone with a 9 or lower Con is either the same or worse off as by the existing rules.
For example, the character with a 7 Constitution would be Disabled with still 1 positive HP and Dead at -8.
I like the idea of expanding the Disabled range further out. It was a rare occurrence to land exactly on 0. And to have whole feats and skill checks based around it? Kind of superfluous.
I really like the idea of expanding Disabled out to whatever bonus hitpoints you would have gained otherwise. So if it was Con Score, or an additional Max hp, or a racial bonus, flat bonus, or some mix of those... they would all push disabled status further into the negative.
Dying status would simply be the 10 point range after that. Not exactly hard to keep track of, since it'll be written exactly once on your character sheet and rarely change (short of Racial changes from reincarnation or something).
Ooh.. actually, it might be best if it was a flat bonus + racial modifier instead of based on Con. Con can be for the positive, no need to give it a double effect... and on top of that, you don't want to have to track a second thing when Con damage or penalties (or bonuses!) occur.
This would make feats like Diehard worthwhile again. Autohypnosis would also gain added usage (perform action during disabled without losing hitpoints).
It would also add new tactical dynamics, and possible realism. A disabled person can only move or act as if slowed, and costs 1hp to do anything. It'll become apparent when someone or something is near death.
As a note, I like the idea of extending the range of disabled hit points, but it would only be something I use for PCs (and maybe named NPCs). Monsters still would have a disabled range of 0 hit points, and no negative hit points (effectively dead at -1 or less with no chance to stabilize, UNLESS they have regeneration or something like that).