Alpha 2 Class Tweaks / suggestions / observations

[ClockworkRevenge]

Alright, im new to these boards but not boards in general; Ive just migrated here from the WoTC dungeons and dragons boards. Im here because i hate 4.0 with a fiery pashion, and sense Paizo looks like the only corp thats doing anything to save my favorite game, i deceided id throw in some constructive commentary, despite whether or not its appriciated, valid, etc, whatever. So, im just gonna comment on the alpha 2 release, maybe things have already been adressed, just let me know, i just wanted to try and put some input on the boards sense i herd Paizo was very responsive to its fan base.

Races:
They all looked great, i really liked the +2, +2, -2, and i liked all the tweaks to their abilities. Perhaps giving all races a slightly nerfed version of the Racial Weapon Familiarity feat is a little much, but its still fun. Now i would actually consider playing a half-elf, orc, or gnome (The artwork was also great, love it.)

Classes:
Barbarian looks really good; I much like way rage is handled down, despite it being a little but more complicated, and the rage powers make it much more exiciting in my opinion. Its always fun to have something special to do, especially in the heat of battle. It lets a barbarian player put a little more thought and flare into his combat outside of "i power atack", "i rage".

Fighter: Still lacking. The armor bonuses are neat, but the increase to damage to specific weapon schools is meh. Sense the fighter revolves around essentially being the best at simple fighting/skill at combat, why doesnt the class revolve around the aquisition and increased potency of the combat actions (Trip, feint, disarm, charge, grapple, overrun, bullrush, aid another, etc). I think giving the fighter the chance to go down a special path revolving around power attack, combat expertise, and combat reflexes allowing him access to improved special actions and more powerful options would make the most sense of a fighter. Does anyone get what i mean?

Paladin: In all honesty i havnt looked over paladin too terribly much, but it looks good (im really excited about pathfinder),However, i think that smite should be per encounter, rather than per day.

Sorcerer/Wizard/Druid/Cleric: I think that all of these classes should gain new levels of magic at the same rate. Also, why doesnt the druid get the domain/bloodline/specialization sort of thing? It doesnt seem to have many other changes, why not give it a "Fane"? Like... Moutain Fane, Forest Fane, Swamp Fane, Desert Fane, etc. Also, the wizard and sorcerer powers granted at 2nd level from bloodline should be x times per encounter, and in terms of the sorcerer, should be equivilent to the available spell level.

These are the preliminary tweeks id make as far as class goes... in terms of skills? I would keep skills the way they are in 3.5 D/D, they really dont needed to be messed around with, and the argument that some skills are way less valuable than others hinges on the fallicious thought that every campaign is the same; all skills are situational. The increased feat table is golden.

[Jason Bulmahn]

Welcome ClockworkRevenge,

All are welcome to post here and you can rest assured that I take just about every post seriously. Your thoughts have been noted.

Thanks

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

[Chris Gunter]

Welcome ClockworkRevenge!

I have to confess that I'm trying to reserve judgement on 4th edition until it's out, but I definately see problems. And I'll never stop playing 3.5! There's just too much good stuff out there!

[seekerofshadowlight]

welcome ClockworkRevenge.When jason and the paizo folks says they take posts and comments into account they do mean it.

[fliprushman]

Welcome to the boards.

I must say, I have to agree with your assessment with the fighters. Instead of gaining a bonus to hit and damage, why not give them a bonus to combat manuevers. That's what a fighter is supposed to be good at and the feats he can take already help his damage potential. With an increase in CMB per so many levels, I think the fighter would work more like a trained combat specialist.

[David Jackson 60]

GTFO!!!

No...just kidding.

Welcome!

[ClockworkRevenge]

fliprushman wrote:

Welcome to the boards.

I must say, I have to agree with your assessment with the fighters. Instead of gaining a bonus to hit and damage, why not give them a bonus to combat manuevers. That's what a fighter is supposed to be good at and the feats he can take already help his damage potential. With an increase in CMB per so many levels, I think the fighter would work more like a trained combat specialist.

I wouldnt even be oposed to taking away that increase to hit and damage, maybe make it slightly less. That way if a fighters favorite greatsword gets sundered and all the party has on hand are axes hes not SOL. Also, the damage bonus/hit bonus i dont think is too game breaking... maybe give this ability 5 times instead of 10.

[Benoit Leblanc]

fliprushman wrote:

Welcome to the boards.

I must say, I have to agree with your assessment with the fighters. Instead of gaining a bonus to hit and damage, why not give them a bonus to combat manuevers. That's what a fighter is supposed to be good at and the feats he can take already help his damage potential. With an increase in CMB per so many levels, I think the fighter would work more like a trained combat specialist.

What about keeping the weapon bonuses, but they would apply to CMB as well ??

[Greatworm]

Hello, another new guy here.
First off, I really love what Pazio is doing; Pathfinder looks to be what D&D needs.
A thought on a ability for the fighter: someone posted something about crits, roll a 20 and still do a little something. What about a fighter only ability that even if you do not confirm your crit, you do x amount of damage anyway. This could go up by level. Not going to fix anything, but a bonus nonetheless.
Also, what about ability options for every class to give more diversity. I like the rage powers, and the other choose x power options.
And as for skills, what if each class had 1 to 3 OPEN skill choices. Bob the fighter had a background in a society where magic is everywhere, so for his open skill choice he picks Knowledge (Arcana), or he comes from a circus family and picks acrobatics.
If any of this has been brought up, please point me there, I'd like to see the thread.
One quick question (which may have been address already), what will be OGL?

[Cyd the Arcmagi]

Benoit Leblanc wrote:

fliprushman wrote:

Welcome to the boards.

I must say, I have to agree with your assessment with the fighters. Instead of gaining a bonus to hit and damage, why not give them a bonus to combat manuevers. That's what a fighter is supposed to be good at and the feats he can take already help his damage potential. With an increase in CMB per so many levels, I think the fighter would work more like a trained combat specialist.

What about keeping the weapon bonuses, but they would apply to CMB as well ??

How about changing the name of Weapon Training to something like Combat Training then have Combat Maneuvers groups and Weapon groups that you select from?

Like the Combat Training options would be:
Axes
Heavy Blades
Light Blades
Bows
Close Weapons
Crossbows
Double Weapons
Flails
Monk Weapons
Pole Arms
Spears
Thrown Weapons
and
"Charging": Bull Rush and Overrun
"anti-weapon":Disarm and Sunder
"Close-Quarter":Grapple and Trip

[Benoit Leblanc]

Cyd the Arcmagi wrote:

How about changing the name of Weapon Training to something like Combat Training then have Combat Maneuvers groups and Weapon groups that you select from?
Like the Combat Training options would be:
Axes
Heavy Blades
Light Blades
Bows
Close Weapons
Crossbows
Double Weapons
Flails
Monk Weapons
Pole Arms
Spears
Thrown Weapons
and
"Charging": Bull Rush and Overrun
"anti-weapon":Disarm and Sunder
"Close-Quarter":Grapple and Trip

That's a great idea, so this way not every fighter is amazing at every combat maneuver. Makes sense. Great Idea Cyd!

[BabbageUK]

Just a thought (and I haven't seen anything similar so far), but how about adding an ability at certain levels for the fighter to be able to overcome certain Damage Resistance (such as silver, or fire or whatever). In effect, the fighter gains the knowledge to overcome these resistances. Needs a little more thought, but it would add some flexibility to the fighter.

[Epic Meepo]

BabbageUK wrote:

Just a thought (and I haven't seen anything similar so far), but how about adding an ability at certain levels for the fighter to be able to overcome certain Damage Resistance (such as silver, or fire or whatever). In effect, the fighter gains the knowledge to overcome these resistances. Needs a little more thought, but it would add some flexibility to the fighter.

You know, I think I like that much more than I like weapon training. If the fighter stays as is, I think I'm going to house-rule weapon training to equal some version of that. Maybe something like this: each time a fighter gains weapon training, he selects one alignment, damage type, or special material that weapons he wields always count as for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Very simple, but more flavorful than a numerical bonus.

[Scribbling Rambler]

I like both Cyd and Babbage's suggestions as substitutions for taking one of the weapon groups. The only problem is meshing the "overcoming DR" with the increasing weapon bonus.

I would prefer not to see one of these systems as a Replacement for the A2 system. Add more options, don't rewrite.

Welcome, Clockwork and Greatworm!

[BabbageUK]

To take Cyd's and my suggestions further, you could just add 'Overcome DR' to the list of weapon groups. So each time he/she gets to choose one, he can either choose a group, a style or the ability to overcome a specific DR.

In short, the fighter needs to be flexible, and just adding bonuses is not being flexible.

[Scribbling Rambler]

Oh, I agree Babbage.

My only concern was that the Weapon Group and Combat Maneuver Training would increment, whereas the Damage Reduction would not (due to the Favoured Enemy style mechanism being used).

[T'Ranchule]

Benoit Leblanc wrote:

Cyd the Arcmagi wrote:

How about changing the name of Weapon Training to something like Combat Training then have Combat Maneuvers groups and Weapon groups that you select from?
Like the Combat Training options would be:
Axes
Heavy Blades
Light Blades
Bows
Close Weapons
Crossbows
Double Weapons
Flails
Monk Weapons
Pole Arms
Spears
Thrown Weapons
and
"Charging": Bull Rush and Overrun
"anti-weapon":Disarm and Sunder
"Close-Quarter":Grapple and Trip

That's a great idea, so this way not every fighter is amazing at every combat maneuver. Makes sense. Great Idea Cyd!

I like this too: it keeps the flavour of the Fighter being the more skillfull and diverse of the combat classes going strong.

[Andre Caceres]

First off welcome, I'm new here too, and have found Paizo boards to be the most open to suggestions and discusions without becomeing a slugfist. I think you'll like it here just fine.

Seconed.

Benoit Leblanc wrote:

Cyd the Arcmagi wrote:

How about changing the name of Weapon Training to something like Combat Training then have Combat Maneuvers groups and Weapon groups that you select from?
Like the Combat Training options would be:
Axes
Heavy Blades
Light Blades
Bows
Close Weapons
Crossbows
Double Weapons
Flails
Monk Weapons
Pole Arms
Spears
Thrown Weapons
and
"Charging": Bull Rush and Overrun
"anti-weapon":Disarm and Sunder
"Close-Quarter":Grapple and Trip

That's a great idea, so this way not every fighter is amazing at every combat maneuver. Makes sense. Great Idea Cy

This is truly great idea I would even take this further by making certain feats to not just be Fighter Feats, But Weapon Type Feats. In play testing Pathfinder one of my players asked if he could pick a few feats from the Master at Arms? pdf series. I didn't know the series but read what he had downloaded its basically specialized feats for a certain type of weapon if you take a prestige class.

After some playing we laid out a system that he could take these feats without if his Fighter also had this weapon group, without Prestige classing into it. While this might complicate the Fighter I think it would help to making it equal to magic users which is a topic of heavy debate.

By the way, this might not be the place for this, but while on the topic. I never understood the whole balace between Wizard/Fighter issue so many players have.

Fighters shine at low levels because they are restricted by the laws of reality. At high levels yes Wizards who by the nature of being a Wizard, can break the laws of reality and therefore could kick fighter butt. However the Wizard is balanced by the fact that he has to put in a lot of levels of having very few or weak spells while at higher levels that d4 hit really hurts him. Sure the Fighter may have a really hard time hitting the Wizard, but when he does, those hit points take him down fast. I mean at max hit every level a 20th level wizard would only have 80 dice points and lets say 40 to 50 points from other sorces maybe. ( I even used wish once and my DM at the time only let me have 1d4x10 extra points, that's a lot but really a fighter could take me out fairly quickly).

This is all simply to say to Paizo that really the Wiz. should have d4 not d6. I justify sorc. having d6 because they don't study as much. But I would also bring the Cleric down to a d6.

Just my two cents.

P.S. how do I change my name? I'm Dre153 on the web not just Andre.

[James Griffin 877]

I would agree with the previous poster about bringing Cleric down to a d6. I mean, in 3.x clerics were always better paladins than paladins anyway.

(I was always confused as to which sources of fantasy material DnD looked to to define your average cleric as a battle-entrenched, heavy armor wearing heal-soldiers?)

I've always pretty much thought of the your average cleric as the "divine champion" of the deities (I mean ALL of them are built for war), and relegate paladin to a prestige class for LG clerics. I've always thought clerics should have light to medium armor at best, so the real by name paladins can appear to shine in some way by being beefier valorous sorts of guys.