Congratulations, Pathfinder Paizo Pros, you make a skill system that tickled my proverbial pickle! For a long time I wondered at the x4 at first level mechanic, as it never sat well with me, well, mechanically.
I will most likely be using the current Alpha2 skill system, in all of my games, unless you happen to come up with something better. Just wanted to say that, for this one gamer, you got the porridge just right!
AFGNCAAP? WTF? LMAOROFLCOPTER. OMGWTFBBQ. OOAQIC,I82QB4IP.
Obnoxious, isn't it?
AFGNCAAP? WTF? LMAOROFLCOPTER. OMGWTFBBQ. OOAQIC,I82QB4IP.
Obnoxious, isn't it?
LULZ
On topic, I really like this skill system, I shall be using it for all of my games as well.
Don't make me use the tear gas and tazers on you guys!
+1, I really like this system a lot better too. GOOD JOB PAIZO
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b95/Spikes01k/lol_kittencopy.jpg
This one has kind of grown on me. Its a good compromise amongst the various systems flying around.
Part of what I like about the new system is that you are rewarded for taking skills from your class list, while not being double penalized (double cost and half rank limit) for taking skills outside that list. Makes it easier to make some interesting character concepts and have the skills to back them up. "Yeah, I'm a ranger but mom was a wizard so i know a few things about magic <Spellcraft 2>". Which goes back to the versatility of it over the AR1 system.
-Weylin Stormcrowe
"Yeah, I'm a ranger but mom was a wizard so i know a few things about magic <Spellcraft 2>".
I like the new system as well, and will be playtesting it next week converting my Rise of the Runelords group over to the new skills. I haven't fully analyzed the actual skill *choices* available in alpha 2 vs. alpha 1.
On the quote above - that's my one beef with the alpha 2 system - while over time its *extremely* easy to diversify, at first level its practically impossible. Perhaps its time to bring back that poor little 3.0 feat that granted three or four skill points.
Yeah, on a second glance, while I find it personally a great improvement over version 1, there is still a lack of "characterization customization" at level 1, which is where 90% of characterization sits for me.
I guess I always interepreted the 3.5 "x4" mechanic to represent what you learned in all those years of concious thought before you became an adventurer and started that first session's adventure. It made leveling up skill points seem more appropriate in number as they represented what you learned in the last month or so, even if you were learning it "sink or swim" style.
I still like the new system a lot, and am looking for that last push to put it at perfect. But I havent found it yet.
I agree that more skills at 1st level would be ideal, but I think Jason is pretty firm on the amounts with some tweaking possible. It makes sense to me that character's should start with a larger amount of skill points. Perhaps acquiring fewer as they level up. Might try a house rule that brings back the times 4 (or even x5) at 1st level but drop the amount gained each level to 2/4/6 or 1/2/4. I for one would not mind having more points at first and then fewer as my character levelled.My group will also be using the Openminded feat for its 5 bonus skill points.
-Weylin Stormcrowe
Perhaps its time to bring back that poor little 3.0 feat that granted three or four skill points.
Openminded is 3.5, in the SRD (from the Expanded PsiHB), and grants 5 skill points.
It makes sense to me that character's should start with a larger amount of skill points.
I think the class skill benefit that practically emulates the old extra skill points does this well enough - and it has the added benefit that it doesn't matter whether you got your rogue level at first level or 17th. No longer do you get as large a benefit from starting with rogue, and no longer does the order in which you got your classes make a difference (okay, with the exception of starting HP, but I'd just go with some 1st-level benefit that's independant from class, like double con at first level).
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...there is still a lack of "characterization customization" at level 1 ...
No disagreement, but I think the new system is so much easier on GMs that it probably outweighs that. Some would argue that the way Alpha 2 gives you all +4 bonuses at 1st, instead of a bunch of +1s and +2s, guarantees that character will be effective (I'm not sure how I feel). If you really want characterization points you can house rule a few to every character or they could take one of those +4 skill point feats.
... I guess I always interepreted the 3.5 "x4" mechanic to represent what you learned in all those years of concious thought before you became an adventurer and started that first session's adventure.
The upside of all this is there is now no reason not to start characters with a level of Commoner or Expert before they start adventuring. Kind of like a 0-level that represents their pre-adventuring life. I really like that possibility.
Perhaps its time to bring back that poor little 3.0 feat that granted three or four skill points.Openminded is 3.5, in the SRD (from the Expanded PsiHB), and grants 5 skill points.
It makes sense to me that character's should start with a larger amount of skill points.I think the class skill benefit that practically emulates the old extra skill points does this well enough - and it has the added benefit that it doesn't matter whether you got your rogue level at first level or 17th. No longer do you get as large a benefit from starting with rogue, and no longer does the order in which you got your classes make a difference (okay, with the exception of starting HP, but I'd just go with some 1st-level benefit that's independant from class, like double con at first level).
Kaeyoss, in a case of larger skills/points at 1st level I would not return to the 3.5 x4 method. More that everyone would start with the same basic level of points at first level. Say 8 + Int at first level, half of which must be spent on class (or if you wanted cultural) skills. The skill points that were gained by level would be the only thing I would keep (using a 4/6/8 base).
-Weylin Stormcrowe
More that everyone would start with the same basic level of points at first level. Say 8 + Int at first level, half of which must be spent on class (or if you wanted cultural) skills.
Why force people?
Why force people?
More that everyone would start with the same basic level of points at first level. Say 8 + Int at first level, half of which must be spent on class (or if you wanted cultural) skills.
Dont see a problem in a class based system with requiring a set amount of skill points be spent on class skills. Most players are going to anyway. And if a group does not care for that tact they can always choose to ignore it as a house rule. Most groups I have played with in various games have had certain basic skill requirements for character in various campaigns. Common in one of my game master's Old WOrld of Darkness games for her to require taking the Awareness Talent at at least 1 dot. Wouldnt be any different than numerous other systems that give you a set amount for your class/profession/role skills and then another amount to spend as you wish. Makes perfect sense to me in game. A large amount of your training would be in a set area, with other skills being developed in childhood or as hobbies.
-Weylin Stormcrowe
Most players are going to anyway.
The "most are doing it" line of reasoning is one of the worst a game designer can follow, especially if you're talking about restrictions or something that doesn't make the game better or easier.
Wouldnt be any different than numerous other systems that give you a set amount for your class/profession/role skills and then another amount to spend as you wish. Makes perfect sense to me in game.
I don't want it. As an optional rule, it might be fine, but restrictions should not figure into the rules. It would be a big step backwards - and not the good backwards.
There's already a disadvantage for cross-class skills: Your bonus will not be as high.
And, again, it now makes a difference with what class you begin. The Alpha 2 system has the huge advantage that your skills aren't any different whether you're a Rog10/Ftr10 or a Ftr10/Rog10. (Now only HP are a bit different, but it's easy enough to fix if you're so inclined).
I would argue that restrictions do factor into rules and are essential to them since the rules themselves are restrictions. Only thing that changes is if a given group finds those restrictions acceptable. As long as we have a class system the game will be more restrictive than many others. It is just not enough of a restriction that I wont play D&D for example.
My take on a larger base skill pool would be to remove the current "+3 for class skills bonus" as well as the 3.5 double cost and half level limit. One point would equal one rank whether class or cross class. The only difference would be say a beginning character receives 6 skill points. Half would be towards class skills with the remainder being usable for either class or cross class equally. A class with a skill focus could provide a skill point bonus usable only for class skills. To me this as any more restrictive than th current PFRPG system. The main difference is between direct or indirect influence on what skills someone buys.
-Weylin Stormcrowe
My take on a larger base skill pool would be to remove the current "+3 for class skills bonus" as well as the 3.5 double cost and half level limit. One point would equal one rank whether class or cross class.
-Weylin Stormcrowe
I played the latter half of my 3.5 edition games under two DM's who used this as a house rule and it worked out fine for us.
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...there is still a lack of "characterization customization" at level 1 ...No disagreement, but I think the new system is so much easier on GMs that it probably outweighs that.
I'll say its easier. I playtested the Alpha 2 twice now - I added creatures in from the MM - moved some HD around etc to make the encounter up to snuff....it was so easy when it came time for those creatures to make a skill check. Mmmm Listen check? Okay - its a listed skill....must be a class skill....creature has 8 HD....has 8 ranks! Now wis mod - +11! next creature....MMmmmm, listen check? not listed as a skill.....cross class then....8 HD! +8!
It was very simple - scary simple to add creatures to the game and add HD to them for figuring out skills.
I'm still preferring a system that allows skills you DONT put any points to to be able to arbitrarily have a slight bonus to them - learned as a result of simply adventuring (why doesnt a 20th level cleric ever learn to hear or spot his enemies better - or learned to climb better - haven't those been essential to his adventuring career?? How did he survive all this time never learning to spot an ambush?) but if we're NOT using such a system, this is the next best thing for sure - and far better than the 3.5 system
Robert
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I added creatures in from the MM - moved some HD around etc to make the encounter up to snuff....it was so easy when it came time for those creatures to make a skill check. Mmmm Listen check? Okay - its a listed skill....must be a class skill....creature has 8 HD....has 8 ranks! Now wis mod - +11! next creature....MMmmmm, listen check? not listed as a skill.....cross class then....8 HD! +8!
Good to hear someone trying the new systems on old monsters. That's what we'll all be doing soon.
I think you could allow characters at creation to pick a background. Each background would have 3 skills in it and you could pick one to reflect your youth, etc. It would allow for role-playing and mechanics to work better together for character generation.
Street Rat:
your character grew up on the streets of the city and throughout your life you never fully forget your hardships and how to survive in a cruel metropolis.
-Appraise
-Sleight of Hand
-Stealth
Chompa, the half-orc grew up faceless and alone in the big city. He learned the value of objects, how to know what's worth taking, and he never forgot. After being adopted by a kind-hearted family with a military history, he too learned the ways of war. He now finds his ability to appraise to he of help when looting rival military encampments.
Anyway, you pick on at first level. You add that one skill to your list of CLASS skills.
Without this, and no way to get that bonus (+3) to a skill, you have a flavorful way of adding a bit of something else without multi-classing.
Otherwise, to represent your heritage you would have to add a level of a class to add the skills, and mechanically that might not exactly what you want with your character idea. Chompa never learned to sneak attack, or avoid traps or anything, and never became a real "rogue" of any sort. He's just a hard working fighter that remembers the value of things.
What do you think?
I think you could allow characters at creation to pick a background. Each background would have 3 skills in it and you could pick one to reflect your youth, etc. It would allow for role-playing and mechanics to work better together for character generation.
Street Rat:
your character grew up on the streets of the city and throughout your life you never fully forget your hardships and how to survive in a cruel metropolis.
-Appraise
-Sleight of Hand
-StealthChompa, the half-orc grew up faceless and alone in the big city. He learned the value of objects, how to know what's worth taking, and he never forgot. After being adopted by a kind-hearted family with a military history, he too learned the ways of war. He now finds his ability to appraise to he of help when looting rival military encampments.
Anyway, you pick on at first level. You add that one skill to your list of CLASS skills.
Without this, and no way to get that bonus (+3) to a skill, you have a flavorful way of adding a bit of something else without multi-classing.
Otherwise, to represent your heritage you would have to add a level of a class to add the skills, and mechanically that might not exactly what you want with your character idea. Chompa never learned to sneak attack, or avoid traps or anything, and never became a real "rogue" of any sort. He's just a hard working fighter that remembers the value of things.
What do you think?
Green Ronin did something similar in their adaptation of the Black Company stories as a setting. You might want to check it out sometime.
-Weylin Stormcrowe
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The background system is used in Iron Heroes, where you get some benefit or advantage, skills boost, semi-feat, etc... its neat...
for this skills system.. i as a DM and as a player who use rogues... love it... ok ok i miss my 40 something skills points but it stops munchkins to min/max in some way... and it forces me to focus so i can have some skills in high level when i am high level instead of lots of skills in a very very low level :P
hit is my new char, a rogue elf with merchant & sailor background, built with 28 points (10 str, 16 dex, 10 con, 16 int, 12 wis, 14 cha)
Stealth +7
Acrobatics +7
Appraise +7
Bluff +6
Diplomacy +6
Disable Device +7
Linguistics +7
Sleight of Hand +5
Perception +5
Performance +6
Profession: Sailor +6
i must say... this works pretty cool for me...
thanks. i will.
I would argue that restrictions do factor into rules and are essential to them since the rules themselves are restrictions.
Not necessarily. "You suffer -2 if you attack with two weapons at once" isn't a restriction. 3e focused a lot on such non-restriction rules, where things wouldn't be forbidden, but did have consequences.
I'd like to keep this design philosophy one of the central ones in Pathfinder, since it is one I have come to associate with D&D (and it's one of the reasons I don't call 4e D&D - it restricts things needlessly).
My take on a larger base skill pool would be to remove the current "+3 for class skills bonus" as well as the 3.5 double cost and half level limit. One point would equal one rank whether class or cross class.
Would that include the x4 at first level, or would you penalise everyone with the effective -3?
The only difference would be say a beginning character receives 6 skill points. Half would be towards class skills with the remainder being usable for either class or cross class equally
6 skill points period? I say that is quite restrictive, and it also lowers skill bonuses quite a bit, with the +3 bonus missing, and the big difference in the number of skill points many would get.
And it is more restrictive: Instead of allowing you freedom of choice (and consequence), it forces you to use class skills. For me, that's a no-no, especially since it can so easily be avoided.
How about giving one skill rank/level as an additional favored class bonus?
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I would have to assume Weylin's method still allows PCs to put up to character level +3 ranks into a skill; otherwise, 1st level PCs are going to be lousy at everything compared even to 3.5 PCs.
I agree with KaeYoss, that forcing a player to allocate half their skills one way and half another is a needless and complex restriction. There are players who can be insanely effective without taking ranks in class skills (the Bluffing fighter, perhaps).
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Unrelated, I have discovered I have a problem with higher-level PCs and the disparity in their skill points. A dwarven cleric with average Int at level 20 is going to have 40 skill points. I think that number is too low to represent the experiences, knowledge, and talents of such a seasoned adventurer. Taking the Open-minded feat a couple times is a partial solution, especially with the increase in feat progression.
How about giving one skill rank/level as an additional favored class bonus?
I'd say that this should be the only bonus for favoured classes.
the Open-minded feat
I just changed that in my house rules so it grants +1/level ranks, just like the human bonus.
What're obnoxious to me are "roleplayers" who are unfamiliar with Zork, and those who lack either curiosity or the ability to use a search engine. ROFLMAOZEDONGAFGNCAAP? WTF? LMAOROFLCOPTER. OMGWTFBBQ. OOAQIC,I82QB4IP.
Obnoxious, isn't it?
Real roleplayers use pen, paper, and their imagination. If you need a computer screen, you're a wow-kiddie who buys money from chinese gold farmers or something ;P