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I have everyone roll 4d6 drop the lowest...you do this for each ability score and pick the number to use. I use this method because yes it does give you a chance to get better scores...my theory is that if you are an adventurer you are already above the average NPC/Person. It would look like this:
Str 12 10 9 14
Dex 8 11 15 10
Con 16 8 12 9
Int 12 11 12 13
Wis 14 10 11 11
Cha 9 12 11 12
So your scores would be:
Str 14
Dex 15
Con 16
Int 13
Wis 14
Cha 12
Now this is all dependent on how well your dice roll...i've rolled this method before and not got anything higher than an 11...bad night for dice I guess.
I have everyone roll 4d6 drop the lowest...you do this for each ability score and pick the number to use. I use this method because yes it does give you a chance to get better scores...my theory is that if you are an adventurer you are already above the average NPC/Person.
I use something very similar myself.
Roll 4d6, dropping lowest.
Do this 7 times, drop lowest.
Arrange remaining 6 numbers as you see fit.
It does tend towards characters with slightly higher stats (most of my group gets a couple 10/11s and then 13/14s for most stats), but thats why they are adventurers. If you were average joe (stats 9-11 across the bored) you would never become an adventurer. you wouldn't live long enough.
Dice rolling concepts for character creation ARE NOT "owned" by WotC. From the beginning of gaming, these conventions have been used by several companies. Within the first couple of years of the original D&D, the exact same conventions were used by Chaosium and Palladium, as well as numerous other products. Since these games predate the creation of WotC by some 15 years, I think a copyright infringement case would be pretty tough to press.
I prefer point buy, but that's because I have one player who can min/max beyond belief, and even point-buy is not infallible. Point buy CONCIEVABLY could have been protected, but other companies have printed the details (INCLUDING Paizo, albeit in the Dragon magazine format) and if no foul was cried then, then again, it would be hard to push the case.
As a side note, I remember when ist edition AD&D's Unearthed Arcana came out. Inside was the notorious "Charcter Generation Method 5," which called for the rolling of anywhere from three to nine dice for each stat, depending on how important it was to the charcter class. Stats could be unbelievable, although the random chance could still play hob.
Since the base races and classes seem to have been upbalanced a bit, I would prefer a attribute system that was slightly downbalanced.
My preferred method is using the Point Buy system. The DMG recommends 25 points when using this system. Perhaps 20 points would be appropriate? Or another take on a point buy system that ended up with attributes that are balanced to the old 3.5 material already in existence.
If this isn't the recommended method, I would probably be using something like that as a house rule when playtesting.
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Since the base races and classes seem to have been upbalanced a bit, I would prefer a attribute system that was slightly downbalanced.
My preferred method is using the Point Buy system. The DMG recommends 25 points when using this system. Perhaps 20 points would be appropriate? Or another take on a point buy system that ended up with attributes that are balanced to the old 3.5 material already in existence.
If this isn't the recommended method, I would probably be using something like that as a house rule when playtesting.
25 point buy is already quite weak. Many people (including me) use 32 point buy and I would like the PRPG to do the same.
I go with 4d6 drop lowest, create 3 columns with 6 results each, pick one column or ditch all and create 2 columns. Pick the one you like or ditch again and roll last time picking up the result.
a score of 4x6s on one roll equals a 20.
I've been using this system for years and so far it's the best one my players enjoy.
I think the wide variety of opinions expressed here shows that it really doesn't matter too much, as long as folks are "internally consistent" to their own campaigns.
The only place I see where a method needs to be explicitly stated is in the "organized play" campaigns. So there does need to be a stated method for the Pathfinder Society, for example. That's a situation where it's more important that people start out with an even footing.
As was mentioned above, 4d6-drop-lowest (and, in fact, all the steps for creating a character and for applying a new level of experience) have appeared in an OGC section of Arcana Evolved, so there's no trouble there.
Me, I think we should all use 1d16+2 for ability score, if only to justify the 4d16 that I own. Also, we should have rules that use d24s and d30s.
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What I would hope to see in the final product is as follows:
Here's our point buy cost table.
If you're playing a low-power game, we RECOMMEND x points
An average-power game tends to work best with x points
High powered game, we RECOMMEND x points.
Start with the following arrays:
Low-power: 8,9,10,11,12,13
Average: 8,10,12,12,14,14
High Power: 10,12,14,14,16,18
(all just examples I extracted from my butt)
We created the iconic characters with x points (or with array y), so if you want to be balanced against them, do the same.
If you prefer to roll dice, here are some methods that people have used for as many as 30 years.
- 3d6, in order for the hardcore game. This will generate average scores of 10 or 11, but that's just the average. It could be anything from 3 to 18.
- 4d6, drop the lowest die. This provides a higher average score, but the possible results are still from 3 to 18
- 4d6, reroll 1s, drop the lowest die. This will provide even higher average scores with a minumum of 6 and a maximum of 18.
- etc, etc, etc until they fill whatever amount of space they want to fill.
This way they are not telling you how to make your character or DM your game. Of course, there will be a very stock rule that probably coincides with the number of points (or array) used for the iconics when it comes to the organized play stuff.
I have to say I hate dice rolling from personal experience of playing in games in which it was used. Mmmmmm...got to love those 3-5 stats. I had extordinarily bad luck always. And when I wasn't playing the splay usually had a large majority being, "Adventurer?! With those stats you should have stuck with being a peasant" characters, a small number of balanced characters, and of course the one or two extremely lucky characters "Damn with these stats I'm just one step closer to divinity already" or "I'm so good I don't even need a party"
I prefer the static point buy. Allows the DM to control the power level of his campaign (Much like the three different xp charts) and makes sure no one is left in the dust.
(Scenario: "Who needs a party?" character, and 3 "Why didn't we stick to being random NPCs?" characters)
*returning after a dungeon crawl, "Should have been NPCs" are battered and bloody, "Who needs a party?" goes up to the bar for a drink.*
PC: Dwarven spirits, please.
Bartender: Yeah sure. *starts pouring* Looks like you just got back from hellavu fight.
PC: Hmmm? Nah! *waves it off* It was nothing. Just some death cultists trying to end the world again.
Bartender: The rest of yer group doesn't look like they though it were nothin'. *nods towards the other three whom sit at a table in varying conditions of badshape*
PC: *looks over* Hmmmm? Group? Them? *laughs* Oh no, we're not a group, well they are, but I just used them to slow down the cultists a bit for me.
Bartender: *raises eyebrow* So you used like fodder?
PC: That sounds about right. *He nods*
Bartender: *pours three mugs of ale as he hands PC his dwarven spirits* Here ya go.
PC: Thanks.
Bartender: *pushes the three mugs of ale as well* Fer tha others. On the house.
PC: I'm sure they'll appreciate it. *He smiles and carries off the drinks to the table*
Bartender: And my sympathies. *Mutters shaking his head and starts wiping down the bar*
Guys, 4d6 and 32 point buy are out because they're not part of the SRD.It's out there anyway (at least 4d6 drop lowest). If nothing else, it's in Malhavoc's Arcana Evolved and it's OGC. Problem solved.
I didn't check to see if point buy is in there, but it probably wouldn't be difficult to either find an example or re-create it. Given higher ability scores are harder to come by than medium ones, it's a mathematical given that to re-create that in point buy it would cost more to go from 17 to 18 than 11 to 12. So I don't see it as an issue at all of having 4d6 drop lowest and some form of point buy included in the Pathfinder RPG.
AFAIK (insert obligatory "I am not a lawyer" disclaimer here), game mechanics can't be copyrighted (they fall under patent law). You can only copyright a particular written presentation of the rule(s). So Paizo could use the "4d6, drop the lowest rule." They'd just have to change the wording to "Roll 4d6, keep the highest three" or something like that.
As for point-buy systems, the only reason I can see for increasing the marginal cost (cost of the next point) of higher ability scores is to keep parity between randomly generated characters and those created using point buy. That seems to be what WotC was aiming for with 3.x, since the costs on the DMG table roughly parallel the decreasing chances of getting those scores on 3d6. The problem was that WotC picked a default point allotment (25) that's below the point total for the average randomly-generated PC (between 27-28 IIRC).
Personally, I don't see the point of trying for that interchangeability. How often does somebody try to bring a point-buy character into a rolled-generation game or vice versa? The ideal for a point-buy system should be to have the marginal costs reflect the actual increase in value. For d20 as it stands, that would mean the marginal cost of even scores should be higher than that of odd scores. I actually tried to make such a system once, and it has the side effect of forcing the kind of distributions one would find in rolled characters. I actually gave up on it because of that, but I wonder if it's really that much more inconvenient than the costs on the DMG point-buy table.
I allow my players to either roll 4d6 drop lowest and arrange as desired or 5d6 drop lowest two but arrange in order and then swap any two stats.
First things first, we must differentiate between PCs and the normal/average population here.
The average score for the normal population should remain at 10.5, so alternate 10s and 11s as in the standard array for the prototypical average person. The distribution for the standard population should remain being determined by a 3d6 roll.
If the above conditions for the normal population are satisfied, I am open to most methods of ability score generation, even point buy (though I definitely prefer rolling both as a PC and as a DM).
For nostalgia sake I like dice rolling but the point-buy system is just much more fair and can be done before the players get to the game, so they are ready and you don't have to watch them roll.
For the most part it's really a done deal because 90+ percent of Pathfinder's market is going to be us stubborn Luddites who are holding out against the change to 4.0.
I'm actually curious how Paizo is going to get around this.
I'm not sure it's just us old Curmudgeons....from what I'm hearing there are a lot of current D+D players who are not liking how 4.0 is turning out. The fact that this many companies are jumping ship from 4.0 and sticking with 3.5 or their own version of it is a testament to that. The fact that Paizo is going that route is a big deal.
Looking at populations in general, I don't find the diversity of "stats" that are generated by the normal 3d6. The classic dichotomy of course being Jock vs. Nerd, where the Jock is high strength, low intelligence and the Nerd, of course, is vice versa. However, variances in the population *tend* to have one high attribute or one low attribute. Just because you're nimble doesn't tend to make you sickly, nor does having great insight imply that you're a slug. For PCs, I'd like to see ability scores with maybe 1 or 2 med-high scores, and basically the rest be average, with a slim possibility of a low score. Maybe a low score that is randomly determined?
As a slight aside from the core topic, how is Pathfinder Society going to be doing character creation? I am pretty certain it will be point-buy, but how many points?
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As a slight aside from the core topic, how is Pathfinder Society going to be doing character creation? I am pretty certain it will be point-buy, but how many points?
I'm pretty sure there'll be both dice-rolling and point-buy options. A lot of people like (as well attested on this thread) dicing their attributes. However, some people (like myself) prefer the point-buy method.
The point-buy method will probably look quite a bit different from what we see in the DMG. I'm just hoping it's not on a 1-1 point basis.
Just wondering whats wrong with 1-1 point bases?
Thank ya I didn't see that I only use point buy online and never at home so was just wondering.
The biggest legitimate worry with 1 for 1 point buys is that it's too easy to create lopsidedly min-maxed characters. For example, with a 75-point 1 for 1 system (with all stats starting at 0), you can get an array of 18, 18, 10, 10, 10, 9. That's two awesome stat bonuses with only a -1 total penalty. Even if you trade one 18 for a 17 to eliminate the penalty, a world full of characters who are world-beaters in a couple of areas and exactly average in everything else can be a little boring. The idea of paying to be "above the curve" by itself only makes sense if you're trying to make point-buy characters compatible with rolled characters.