I don't know about the rest of the forum, but I'd like to see the skills condensed a little bit more (I'd especially like to see the skills that were separated in Alpha 2 re-condensed). I liked thieving and deception a lot (a liar can usually spot a liar).
I know they aren't particularly related, but could swim possibly be merged with climb? Swim seems like a little bit silly of a skill because, in most games I've played, nobody buys it, or they buy one rank in it just to say that they know how to do it. same with climb. If they were merged, they'd at least sort of approach being worth taking. with all the magic in the game, it's not like it's a balance issue.
What do the rest of you think? Anything else that should be merged? Agree/Disagree?
Agreed. Like I said in the past, the Knowledge skills could be merged--what wizard or religious devotee doesn't know about the planes? And since when does history not deal with geography, royalty, and culture?
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This subject has seen a lot of time, both in the original Alpha and again here. For playtesting, my group is still using the consolidated skill list below...
Acrobatics (Dex = Balance, Escape Artist, Tumble)
Animal Training (Wis = As Handle Animal)
Athletics (Str = Climb, Jump)
Craft (Wis = Appraise. A chosen Craft skill is considered one skill – other applications are considered separate)
Deception (Cha = Bluff, Disguise, Forgery)
Disable Device (Int = Disable Device, Open Lock),
Endurance (Con = Concentration, Run, Swim)
Knowledge (arcana) (Int = Know (arcana), Spellcraft (arcane), use arcane magic device)
Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int = As normal)
Knowledge (local) (Int = As normal)
Knowledge (history) (Int = know (history), know (nobility)
Knowledge (nature) (Int = As normal)
Knowledge (religion) (Int = know (religion), Spellcraft (divine), use divine magic device)
Language (Int = Read & Speak, Decipher Script)
Perception (Wis = Listen, Search, Spot, Sense Motive),
Perform (Cha = As normal. A chosen Perform skill is considered one skill – other applications are considered separate)
Persuasion (Cha = Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate),
Profession (Wis = A chosen Profession is considered one skill – other applications are considered separate)
Ride (Wis = As normal)
Sleight of Hand (Dex = As normal)
Sneak (Dex = Hide, Move Silently)
Survival (Wis = Survival, Knowledge (geography)
In addition, we are using the Initiative skill (as Star Wars Saga), granted to the Barbaraian, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, and Rogue.
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I don't think that skills should be consolidated more.
I think it is a path of diminishing returns. There are a couple of combinations that I think should be reworked, but mostly, I think it has a good balance in terms of number and type of skills.
Further condensing skills would not improve the game in my opinion.
Well I think that AT LEAST Bluff + Disguise should be merged together into Deception.
And Use Rope could be reintroduced into Sleigth of Hand
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I don't think that skills should be consolidated more.
Agreed. I was glad to see that some of the consolidation had been rolled back, in fact. I think you can swim without knowing how to climb, and you can bluff your way past a guard without necessarily being good at disguising your appearance.
It's not such a big deal at the end of the day, but honestly some of the consolidation didn't really strike me as a good fit. Although I did like the one suggestion to group similar skills together, like Athletics(Swim), Athletics(Climb), Athletics(Jump) - this keeps them separate but would enable you to potentially affect the whole group with a bonus via feat or class ability, etc.
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>>Swim + Climb + Jump = Athletics. That is how they should do it.
Yeah, that's pretty neat. Throws a lot of rings and potions of swimming, rings and potions of jumping and rings and potions of climbing into the sh1tt@r but that's something we'll just have to live with I guess.
Not to mention a 3.5 feat that gives +2 to Diplomacy and +2 to Gather Information. What am I supposed to do with it now? Change it to +3 to the new Diplomacy?
EDIT: By the way, this isn't a complaint really, the Alpha made the skill system just right, we do have a few compatability issues to deal with but they're minor overall I bet.
-DM Jeff
Why is everybody saying max rank in linguistic is equal to 23 languages?
YOU DON'T GET +3 RANKS IF IT'S A CLASS SKILL - ONLY A +3 BONUS ON SKILL CHECKS!
I wonder if those who argue that fighters and clerics etc. have too few skill points are the same who are AGAINST skill merging?
I personally think that skills have to merge to a certain degree, so there a fewer point-eating skills left.
In my games nearly nobody ever invests in skills like swim or jump. Combining those into one skill just makes them much more appealing!
Jeff, I think you're onto the right idea. Just forego these +2/+2 Skill for any merged skill feats and convert them to Skill Focus for the merged skill.
In playtesting, I have found the merged skills to be less than satisfactory-for one simple reason, I can't remember them after having played with the 3.5 list for so many years. The incremental efficiency gains of merged skills don't seem to outweigh the trouble of memorizing a new list.
I wonder if those who argue that fighters and clerics etc. have too few skill points are the same who are AGAINST skill merging?
I personally think that skills have to merge to a certain degree, so there a fewer point-eating skills left.
In my games nearly nobody ever invests in skills like swim or jump. Combining those into one skill just makes them much more appealing!
I agree. And I would also like to see the new "Fly" skill merged with either Acrobatics or a new Climb/Swim skill (Athletics?).
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Well I think that AT LEAST Bluff + Disguise should be merged together into Deception.
And Use Rope could be reintroduced into Sleigth of Hand
Definitely agree with this. And Forgery should be merged into Deception *but* with the requirement of Linguistics to use.
And, as others have posted, Athletics would be a logical "super-skill" for "physical" skills since the same was done with Acrobatics.
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I agree. And I would also like to see the new "Fly" skill merged with either Acrobatics or a new Climb/Swim skill (Athletics?).I wonder if those who argue that fighters and clerics etc. have too few skill points are the same who are AGAINST skill merging?
I personally think that skills have to merge to a certain degree, so there a fewer point-eating skills left.
In my games nearly nobody ever invests in skills like swim or jump. Combining those into one skill just makes them much more appealing!
Yep, Fly should be folded into Acrobatics -- it's just a very odd skill anyway.
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This subject has seen a lot of time, both in the original Alpha and again here. For playtesting, my group is still using the consolidated skill list below...
Acrobatics (Dex = Balance, Escape Artist, Tumble)
Animal Training (Wis = As Handle Animal)
Athletics (Str = Climb, Jump)
Craft (Wis = Appraise. A chosen Craft skill is considered one skill – other applications are considered separate)
Deception (Cha = Bluff, Disguise, Forgery)
Disable Device (Int = Disable Device, Open Lock),
Endurance (Con = Concentration, Run, Swim)
Knowledge (arcana) (Int = Know (arcana), Spellcraft (arcane), use arcane magic device)
Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int = As normal)
Knowledge (local) (Int = As normal)
Knowledge (history) (Int = know (history), know (nobility)
Knowledge (nature) (Int = As normal)
Knowledge (religion) (Int = know (religion), Spellcraft (divine), use divine magic device)
Language (Int = Read & Speak, Decipher Script)
Perception (Wis = Listen, Search, Spot, Sense Motive),
Perform (Cha = As normal. A chosen Perform skill is considered one skill – other applications are considered separate)
Persuasion (Cha = Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate),
Profession (Wis = A chosen Profession is considered one skill – other applications are considered separate)
Ride (Wis = As normal)
Sleight of Hand (Dex = As normal)
Sneak (Dex = Hide, Move Silently)
Survival (Wis = Survival, Knowledge (geography)In addition, we are using the Initiative skill (as Star Wars Saga), granted to the Barbaraian, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, and Rogue.
*Wow*, your list is almost identical to mine... I can spot some differences, but mostly your line of thinking mirrors pretty much mine (e.g. I, too, merged Escape Artist into Acrobatics). :) And your list has Sneak (I prefer Stealth), and you, too, have folded Sense Motive into Perception (I renamed it Perception (Insight)).
I, too, was thinking of merging Appraise with Craft, but then I thought that craftsmen (Experts) have enough skill ranks to invest in Appraise, too, and it should be included as an option to fences and thieves (for example) who might not be jewelers or goldsmiths but should be able to tell an item's value. And WIS should definitely be the stat Craft skills are derived from, not INT.
And like you, I'm also of the mind that any good Diplomat knows how to intimidate others as well, yet I'm not so sure that every street thug who is good at intimidating opponents knows how to be diplomatic or charming. So I'm still considering about keeping Intimidate and Diplomacy as separate skills (or "subskills" -- see below)
Like you, I have also thought about merging Use Magic Device into Knowledge (Arcana), and have suggested (on several threads, I think) that Spellcraft (Arcane) and Spellcraft (Divine) should be two different things. I'd also add "Druidic" Spellcraft into Knowledge (Nature), if I were you, because in some settings druids are not divine spellcasters at all.
Endurance... I was thinking of Discipline (Concentration, Endurance-feat, Autohypnosis, Resist Torture, etc.), and merging Swim and Run into Athletics. But I think I like your idea better than mine. Or, perhaps, Endurance could only cover Swim, Run, and other "long term" physical activities while Discipline could include Psionic Skills and Concentration? Or, maybe just Psionic Skills? Just some thoughts...
Interesting... you have folded Knowledge (Geography) into Survival, and it makes sense -- I have to think about it, too. On the other hand, it may be better to keep them as separate skills, since you should be able to study (academically) geography, too?
And I'd probably prefer merging Knowledge (Nobility) into Knowledge (Local) than Knowledge (History). The latter just doesn't feel "right" to me.
How about "Urban Survival" skill? I was thinking of introducing Streetwise as a new skill *or* "splitting" Survival into Survival (Urban) and Survival (Rural), but in any case that would overlap a bit with Knowledge (Local), so I'm not sure if that's a good idea? Or you could just take "specializations" in Survival (Urban, Forest, Mountains, Desert, etc.).
SKILLS AND SUB-SKILLS:
One of the ideas I'm toying with is that I'd organize *all* skills under "Skill Headings", just like Craft, Profession, Perform and Knowledge work in 3E and PF.
The idea would be that fighters could have Acrobatics (Balance) as a class skill, but *not* Acrobatics (Tumble) or Acrobatics (Escape Artist). And Paladins could have, say, Perception (Insight) as a class skill while Rogues and Rangers might have Perception (All). And fighters might have just Perception (Sight) and Perception (Listen). And so on.
What I'm trying to say is that this would enable all classes to have class skills that make sense and add more "realism" and consistency to the skill system -- you could be a convincing liar without *automatically* being a master at forgeries or disguises, too.
And, the system would be more backwards compatible this way, I think, that a system with more "merged" skills.
However, this is just an idea and I'm not sure whether I'm going to playtest it at all, at least in the beginning. Any thoughts? Am I a complete idiot or what? :P
I'm tentatively going to try the following:
Acrobatics (includes Jump)
Appraise
Athletics (Climb and Swim)
Bluff (Bluff, Innuendo, and Intimidate)
Concentration
Craft: Fine Arts (includes Forgery)
Craft: Smith (blacksmith, armorer, weaponsmith)
Craft (etc.; broad groups)
Diplomacy (includes Sense Motive)
Disable Device (includes Open Locks and Use Magic Device)
Fly
Knowledge: the planes (includes Knowledge: religion)
Knowledge: warfare (includes Profession: soldier and profession: siege engineer)
Handle Animal (includes Ride)
Heal
Linguistics
Perception (Listen, Spot, Search)
Perform (all-in-one; includes Disguise)
Sleight of Hand (includes Quick Draw feat)
Spellcraft (includes Knowledge: arcana)
Stealth
Streetwise (Knowledge: Local and Gather Information)
Survival (includes Track and Knowledge: nature)
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The idea of a Streetwise skill appeals to me (and smacks of old 2nd Edition and the D6 Star Wars), so I am kind of partial to adding them. Would it seem wrong to fold Sense Motive in with Streetwise?
While I like the idea of sub-skills of Perception (much as Knowledge skills have), I think that it has the potential to make things too complex. The present Pathfinder RPG already has Perception too complex as it is.
We are using a system that only allows certain skill functions if the character is considered skilled in that particular skill (i.e. has +5 ranks), such as the example below.
Acrobatics (DEX)
Armor Check Penalty
You can move at normal speed across difficult terrain, keep your balance while walking on a narrow surface, take less damage from a fall, slip free of restraints, or a grappling foe, and get up from a prone position safely. In addition to the specifics options, you can use Acrobatics to perform tumbling, flipping, or gymnastic maneuvers.
Balance: As PHB skill.
Cross Difficulty Terrain (Trained Only): With a successful DC 15 Acrobatics check, you can move through difficult terrain at your normal speed.
Escape Bonds: As PHB skill.
Fall Prone (Trained Only): If you are trained in Acrobatics and succeed at a DC 15 check, you can drop to a prone position as a free action (instead of a swift action).
Reduce Falling Damage (Trained Only): With a successful DC 15 Acrobatics check, you can treat a fall as if it was 10 feet shorted when determining damage. For every 10 ranks by which you beat this DC, you can subtract an additional 10 feet from the fall for determining damage. If you make this check and take no damage from the fall, you land on your feet.
If you are struck by a falling object, you can reduce the damage taken by half with a successful DC 15 Acrobatics check.
Tumbling (Trained Only): If you succeed at a DC 15 Acrobatics check, you can tumble through the threatened area or fighting space of an enemy as part of your move action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Each threatened square you tumble through counts as 2 squares of movement.
OR the following
Knowledge (INT)
Like the Craft and Profession skills, Knowledge actually encompasses a number of unrelated skills. Knowledge represents a study of some body of lore, possibly an academic or even scientific discipline.
Common Knowledge (All): You can answer a basic question about a subject related to your field of study with a DC 10 Knowledge check.
Expert Knowledge (All) (Trained Only): You can make a Knowledge check as a swift action to answer a question within your field of study that requires some expertise. The DC of the check ranges from 15 (for a simple question) to 25 (for tough questions). The DM may adjust the DC depending on a character’s personal experience.
Appraise (All) (DC 10): You can use your Knowledge skills to try to appraise the worth of items associated with your field of study. You can appraise common or well-known objects with an appropriate DC 10 Knowledge check. Failure means that you estimate the value at 50% to 150% (2d6+3 times 10%,) of its actual value.
Detect Forgery (All) (Trained Only): You can use your Knowledge skills to try to detect the authenticity of items associated with your field of study. Your Knowledge check is opposed by the Deception check of the crafter of the forgery.
Detect Vulnerabilities (Arcana, Dungeoneering, Nature, Religion, or the Planes) (Trained Only): In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster. For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information.
Use Magic Device (Arcana, or Religion) (Trained Only): You can use your Knowledge kill to activate a magic item that would normally not work for you. You must use either Knowledge (arcana) for arcane magic items or Knowledge (religion) for divine magic items to let you use a magic item as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class, as if you were a different race, or as if you were of a different alignment.
You make the appropriate Knowledge skill check each time you activate a device such as a wand. If you are using the check to emulate an alignment or some other quality in an ongoing manner, you need to make the relevant check once per hour.
You must consciously choose which requirement to emulate. That is, you must know what you are trying to emulate when you make a Knowledge check for that purpose. The DCs for various tasks involving these checks are summarized below.
My system for languages differs to.
Language (INT)
Common Languages: You start play knowing Common and your native language plus an additional number of known languages equal to your starting Intelligence bonus. For every 5 ranks in this skill, a character can add an additional known language. A character is not required to make skill checks with a known language. A character is considered literate in any known language (with the exception of the Barbarian class; they must spend an additional 2 ranks in this skill to be considered literate).
Decipher Language (Trained Only): You can attempt to communicate with a target whose language is not known by you. The difficulty varies depending on the complexity of the idea or concept you are trying to communicate. The base DC is 15 for simple messages, while a more complex idea may be DC 30. If the check succeeds, you are able to briefly communicate with the target.
Decipher Script (Trained Only): You can decipher writing in an unfamiliar language or a message written in an incomplete or archaic form. The base DC is 20 for the simplest messages, 25 for standard texts, and 30 or higher for intricate, exotic, or very old writing.
If the check succeeds, you understand the general content of a piece of writing about one page long (or the equivalent). If the check fails, make a DC 5 Wisdom check to see if you avoid drawing a false conclusion about the text. (Success means that you do not draw a false conclusion; failure means that you do.) Both the Decipher Script check and (if necessary) the Wisdom check are made secretly, so that you can’t tell whether the conclusion you draw is true or false. Deciphering the equivalent of a single page of script takes 1 minute (ten consecutive full-round actions).
Arnim,
You're absolutely my kind of skills guy. You don't happen to game in or near Houston, do you? I'd love to play the full rules you've outlined.
No, but a complete set of my 3.75 skills write up is just an e-mail away, if you are truly interested.
egoldma at sbcglobal dot net. Thanks! I look forward to reviewing them.
My only comment is the great taboo word: "realism".
Is it realistic that an olympic swimmer is also an olimpic climber? Or vice versa?
Some of the combinations stretch my ability to suspend disbelief, but climb and swim break it for me. Maybe its just me, but just being a good climber does not make you a good swimmer.
I have issue with the slightly PC focused perspective of Disable Device and Open Lock, but I suppose the unchanged nature of Trapfinding makes it moot. But the precedent exists that a master locksmith NPC is also a master trap disabler, assuming he can find them. I don't know if I buy that, personally.
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My only comment is the great taboo word: "realism".
It's often a realism vs. playability question. Choose one, ditch the other.
Is it realistic that an olympic swimmer is also an olimpic climber? Or vice versa?
Some of the combinations stretch my ability to suspend disbelief, but climb and swim break it for me. Maybe its just me, but just being a good climber does not make you a good swimmer.
Probably not, but an olympic swimmer most likely is a good climber as well. The main difference would come with various feats used to boost swimming particularly (though none are present at the time.)
I have issue with the slightly PC focused perspective of Disable Device and Open Lock, but I suppose the unchanged nature of Trapfinding makes it moot. But the precedent exists that a master locksmith NPC is also a master trap disabler, assuming he can find them. I don't know if I buy that, personally.
I admit having some trouble imagining this as well. As perception, they aren't so much on an equal level. I have poor vision, moderate hearing, excellent taste (heh),...
A master locksmith is adept with complex devices. Knowing that, it definitely aids him to understand some complex traps.
I'd be careful not to merge too many feats. Decipher Script and Forgery should be done to a separate skill, say, Calligraphy.
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As perception, they aren't so much on an equal level. I have poor vision, moderate hearing, excellent taste (heh),...
I'm okay with the combined Perception skill. Think of it as the average off which situational modifiers are based. Gnomes have good noses so when Perception deals with smell they get +2.
Decipher Script and Forgery should be done to a separate skill, say, Calligraphy.
Knowledge (linguistics) and Craft (forgery). That way they stay separate - 'cause they are different things - but disappear for everyone except the folks who put ranks into them.
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I'm okay with the combined Perception skill. Think of it as the average off which situational modifiers are based. Gnomes have good noses so when Perception deals with smell they get +2.
Oh, I don't have any problem with it either. It's better that way than having gazillion skills for each finger of your body ("My right hand's middle finger is adept in aggroing people!")
Knowledge (linguistics) and Craft (forgery). That way they stay separate - 'cause they are different things - but disappear for everyone except the folks who put ranks into them.
Eh, hmm. While that might be true in realism-sense, they'd be horribly useless skills when separate. A calligraphy (or knowledge [calligraphy]) could be used for more than mere writing. Markings, symbols etc.
A knowledge (linguistics) would allow the character to understand odd proverb and sayings, and yadda yadda. Craft (forgery), hm, it speaks for itself.
Since we are talking about HEROES and not real persons, it's perfectly ok for me to have characters be good at climb, swim and jump all at once (meaning make it one skill: Athletics).
The same goes for Languages. A HEROIC character studying languages can speak a dozen ones, write in 6 different alphabets and can forge offical sounding documents and handwritings with ease.
Hmm. I don't know about that. Flying is a DEX skill right? So I would probably add it to Acrobatics, since 1) Jump is gone over to Athletics and 2) Flying is more about being agile than muscled.
But since flying is a rather different from ANY land-based movement I would let it a single skill... But Swim should be too then...
Actually, I don't really like the Fly skill actually. I don't know for what it's really needed.
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Hmmm... I might fold Calligraphy and Innuendo into Linguistics, and Forgery into Craft.
Yet Innuendo might also be part of Deception (i.e. Bluff), and I could also see Calligraphy being a separate skill with Forgery and Decipher Script being "sub-skills" in it.
On the other hand, Craft (Calligraphy) makes sense, too. I guess it's all about your chosen point of view and how often each skill will come into play.
Streetwise is still a question mark for me -- it may "downplay" the importance of both Diplomacy and Knowledge (Local). And even if I introduced Streetwise into my game, should I still let PCs to use those two skills for Streewise checks? I think there would be a bit too much overlap, but I *like* the idea of "Urban Survival" skill.
I'm also tempted to make Insight a skill of its own, but on the other hand, a lot of the Knowledge skills already cover monster types and races.
EDIT: I know that a lot of DMs think D&D (and PF) should be "PC-centric" and not try to simulate all walks of life realistically. Yet I'd hate to see some NPC concepts becoming sort of like "mechanical anomalies" that cannot be realistically statted in PF (which is a major issue for me in 4E).
Where do you come up with innuendo and calligraphy?!
Besides, Innuendo was a skill in 3.0 and was folded into bluff since 3.5.
Calligraphy is a good craft/profession.
In terms of pure game mechanics, not realism, I like Climb + Swim, but not Fly + Acrobatics. Why? Combining skills gives us an opportunity to make skills more equal to one another (they both cost 1 skill point per rank, but was Profession (cook) in 3.5 really as useful as Spot?). People who take ranks in Swim are likely to take ranks in Climb as well; they're good wilderness/rough terrain skills. It's totally unrealistic to merge them, but it helps reduce a "skills tax" on someone who wants to be able to negotiate rapids and cliffs and such.
Flying has arguably done more to change the nature of the game than nearly any other magic. Terrain becomes meaningless; flying opponents are rife; most of "Gathering of Winds" is just plain suicidal without it. Given that importance, it should have its own skill. It's not realistic, but in terms of game balance, it's needed, in my opinion. Combining it with Acrobatics makes the latter skill "too good."
Calligraphy is a good craft/profession.
For reasons cited above, I've made Craft (Fine Arts) all one skill, and it includes painting, calligraphy, and Forgery. I've already had one player actually choose to max that out, instead of Stealth, because it seemed "cooler."
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I can see some catburglar rogues with no experience in deep water. That type of character would use Climb but probably not Swim very often.
What I would like to see is Knowledge(Planes) handled under Knowledge(Arcana) or Knowledge(Religion), whichever is greater for the PC.
I can see Acrobatics as a skill my fighters will often invest in, despite not gaining the +3 bonus.
Get Concentration out of Spellcraft!
Spellcraft (and Psicraft) related rolls would be more apropriate as a Knowledge skill.
You must make a Concentration check whenever you might potentially be distracted (by taking damage, by harsh weather, and so on) while engaged in some action that requires your full attention. Such actions include casting a spell, concentrating on an active spell, directing a spell, using a spell-like ability, or using a skill that would provoke an attack of opportunity.
Please don't make my rogue need to make a Spellcraft check to pick a lock while threatened... or the character desperately trying to stop his friend from bleeding to death with a heal check while the battle rages around him.
Then you could roll the benefits of Autohypnosis into Concentration.
Ignore caltrop wound - A successful check removes the movement penalty. The wound doesn’t go away—it is just ignored through self-persuasion.
Memorize - You can attempt to memorize a long string of numbers, a long passage of verse, or some other particularly difficult piece of information.
Resist dying - you can substitute a DC 20 check for your d% roll to see if you become stable.
Resist fear - If you fail the saving throw, you can make an check on your next round even while overcome by fear. If your check meets or beats the DC for the fear effect, you shrug off the fear.
Tolerate poison - substitute an check for a saving throw against any standard poison’s secondary damage or effect.
Willpower - If reduced to 0 hit points (disabled), you can make an check. If successful, you can take a normal action while at 0 hit points without taking 1 point of damage.
+1
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Where do you come up with innuendo and calligraphy?!
Besides, Innuendo was a skill in 3.0 and was folded into bluff since 3.5.
Calligraphy is a good craft/profession.
Sorry, my bad -- I forgot that Innuendo has been folded into Bluff. Forget about it :) But it could work as a "skill use" for Linguistics, though, but I think I'll keep it merged in Deception/Bluff.
I think Craft is a better choice for calligraphy, because it should be INT-based.
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I can see some catburglar rogues with no experience in deep water. That type of character would use Climb but probably not Swim very often.
What I would like to see is Knowledge(Planes) handled under Knowledge(Arcana) or Knowledge(Religion), whichever is greater for the PC.
I can see Acrobatics as a skill my fighters will often invest in, despite not gaining the +3 bonus.
Hmmm... not really, because Knowledge (Planes) also includes knowledge about creatures from the planes (Demons, Elementals, other Outsiders and so on) and Religion is... well, about, religions and practises of faith, locations of temples and so on. Besides, not every religion is tied to the planes, at least in FR. And let's not forget that Arcana already covers "magical" creatures, so IMO it wouldn't fit the bill either.
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Bundling of skills is okay. We can argue about which skills get bundled with which ones all day with excellent arguments on either side.
However if skills are going to be condensed then classes with high skill points should get fewer points to spend. Rogues and Scouts should probably drop from 8 pts/lvl to 6 pts/lvl.
Yes, YES, YES! I always like to see someone else who thinks alike! QFT!
Yes, YES, YES! I always like to see someone else who thinks alike! QFT!Bundling of skills is okay. We can argue about which skills get bundled with which ones all day with excellent arguments on either side.
However if skills are going to be condensed then classes with high skill points should get fewer points to spend. Rogues and Scouts should probably drop from 8 pts/lvl to 6 pts/lvl.
Actually, I had the opposite viewpoint. I thought the classes getting 2 per level should get more skills. But, frankly, I'm of the 'most players should know how to do lots of different things' mindset, rather than 'yes, I'm an agile warrior who knows who to climb, and swim, and jump, but god help me if I have to balance!'
However if skills are going to be condensed then classes with high skill points should get fewer points to spend. Rogues and Scouts should probably drop from 8 pts/lvl to 6 pts/lvl.
With skills being condensed, going from 2/4/6/8 to 2/3/4/5 maintains a pretty good 3.5-equivalent balance. Going to a 4/6 system, on the other hand (as many people seem to be advocating) has the following important side effects:
1. The rogue no longer has the skill thing going for him, compared to the others. All he's got (that they don't) is a sneak attack. So he's no longer a rogue, he's a lightly-armored fighter. Rename the class; the old rogue is gone.
2. A bard with 6 skill points/level is unbelievably lame compared to a cleric with 4 skill points/level (he's gone from 3x the skills to 1.5x). The bard therefore sucks a lot worse than he does now, and is essentially a lost cause. The bard is gone.
3. Compared to a ranger with 6 skill points/level, a fighter with 4 skill points/level is now vastly superior -- more feats, weapon training, etc. The ranger's abilities don't come close to bridging that gap, without the 3:1 skill ratio (again, instead of 1.5:1) backing it up. The ranger is gone.
Jason has implied that ALL the core classes will be retained in Pathfinder. A 4/6 skill system makes this impossible unless the high-skill classes are re-done from the ground up, and made vastly more powerful in other areas. Any hope of backward compatibility is lost.
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Going to a 4/6 system, on the other hand (as many people seem to be advocating) has the following important side effects:
But most people are not advocating reducing the rogue's skill points, just adding two to the 2+Int skill classes.
1. The rogue no longer has the skill thing going for him, compared to the others. All he's got (that they don't) is a sneak attack. So he's no longer a rogue, he's a lightly-armored fighter. Rename the class; the old rogue is gone.
The rogue still has more skill points than anyone else. The rogue is no worse than he was before. Other classes are somewhat better than they were. But the rogue is better too. The rogue now has a d8 HD. The rogue now has more special abilities. The thing is, whether you're measuring relative power you have to include other changes, not just skills. Without regard to relative power, the rogue is still good. On an absolute level the rogue did not lose any skill points, and those skill points go farther, since many of the 'condensed' skills most favor the rogue. So, the Pathfinder Rogue is going to be Stealthy, be able to Find Traps and Perceive enemies, Remove Traps and Open Locks, dodge Acrobatically through combat, and only have used half of their base skill points. That gives them 4+Int to still do other things and let them really be different from every other rogue. I don't see the problem.
2. A bard with 6 skill points/level is unbelievably lame compared to a cleric with 4 skill points/level (he's gone from 3x the skills to 1.5x). The bard therefore sucks a lot worse than he does now, and is essentially a lost cause. The bard is gone.
Nobody wants to play a bard now. So, if your argument is that bards suck and clerics rule, yeah, that's true in 3.5. But this doesn't make the bard any worse. It just makes the cleric a little bit better. Clerics are already arguably the 'best' class, but I've never had a group that all played one. I've wanted to do that. So, I guess clerics aren't that cool. But if bards suck before other classes get more skill points, they'd still suck after. Since Pathfinder is fixing all the problems with 3.5, that means the bard will be fixed as well. And that means that the bard won't suck. So, don't worry about that.
3. Compared to a ranger with 6 skill points/level, a fighter with 4 skill points/level is now vastly superior -- more feats, weapon training, etc. The ranger's abilities don't come close to bridging that gap, without the 3:1 skill ratio (again, instead of 1.5:1) backing it up. The ranger is gone.
Again, false. There are people that will still want to play a ranger. Besides getting more skills than the fighter, the ranger has other advantages, like the ability to focus on two-weapon fighting without a high dexterity. Some people say that the ranger gets more skills because of the things that they 'gave up'. But the Pathfinder Ranger is getting some of those things back. Since the Ranger is getting a d10 like a fighter, and the Ranger gave up a d10 for those skill points, it only seems like it is fair to the fighter to give him a couple more skills when you bump the Ranger's HD. To maintain 'relative' power.
Jason has implied that ALL the core classes will be retained in Pathfinder. A 4/6 skill system makes this impossible unless the high-skill classes are re-done from the ground up, and made vastly more powerful in other areas. Any hope of backward compatibility is lost.
I don't want to see a 4/6 system. I do want to see a 4/6/8 system. This fixes the 2+Int classes regarding skills without anyone else 'losing anything', certainly not on an absolute level and not really on a 'relative' level.
But the rogue is better too. The rogue now has a d8 HD. The rogue now has more special abilities. The thing is, whether you're measuring relative power you have to include other changes, not just skills.
Yes, that's true; you're taking away with the left hand and giving with the right. My problem is, by making the sneak attack even more important (by removing creature immunities), by increasing the HD, and nerfing the skill superiority (in relative terms, which is more important than absolute ones when we're talking class balance) -- what does that do? It makes the rogue essentially a front-line combat class. Maybe it's "better," but it's not really a rogue anymore, to my mind. I'll explain what I mean below.
I don't want to see a 4/6 system. I do want to see a 4/6/8 system. This fixes the 2+Int classes regarding skills without anyone else 'losing anything', certainly not on an absolute level and not really on a 'relative' level.
With skill combinations the way they are, 8 and 6 are really no longer significantly different, in my opinion. 2 and 4, with combos included, are now like going from 2 to 6 in 3.5e. If anyone is interested, I can generate some examples; the low-end classes go from the equivalent of 25% the skills of a rogue, to something more like 50%-60% of them. That means the high-end classes really lose out significantly in terms of skills on a relative level.
Yes, you absolutely can balance that by giving them higher hp and better combat abilities -- but that's exactly what I DON'T want to do. Because that shifts the entire focus of the game away from a "skill monkey" being an important role, and towards combat ability being the only real difference between classes ("do you kill by spells, swords, or sneak attacks? Pick one!"). That's fine for people who enjoy a primarily hack-and-slash game, but for games with a lot of intrigue and skill usage, it removes a lot of the fun if everyone has all the skills they could possibly want.
On one level, I was highly irritated that I worked hard on converting characters to Alpha 1 only to have to re-convert them to Alpha 2. Just on an initial pre-game opinion before actual playtesting I feel:
1) I first thought the re-expansion of a few skills in Alpha 2 were a typo, but I guess it's intentional. As a whole, I'll be fair and give it a go before I can really give an informative opion, which will take a considerable time.
2) I like the modification of the change of how cross-class skills work. Until now, ever since I began playing 3.5, I've always outright ignored all cross-class rules and just figured that a player who wants to spend points somewhere should do so to reward an out-of-the-box roleplaying on such a trifling aspect to the game. As we play, I'll have a better opinion, but it seems worthy of a try.
3) I would hope that Alpha 3 won't force us to turn another 180 and repeat the initial changes. My characters sheets are getting worn without even starting the game.
4) Although non-playtesting feedback will be ignored, I do agree with the OP most strongly that I applauded the initial drive to merge skills and omit Rope Use and should also omit Swim. I've never taken or have seen a player take swim either. I think a sensible "athletics" type catch-all (which might include something like running, and fly, or other means of locomotion) would make a more agreeable game along with other merged skills. This is a fantasy game, and I'm on the side of the fence that doesn't require extensive bits of reality to turn the rules into a petty, nitpicking quagmire. Anything to help speed things a long will be appreciated by me.
For what it's worth, here is the skill list I'd like to see in PRPG ;-)
Please note that I absolutly don't care about the skill names. What matters to me is wich skills are combined into new ones.
-Acrobatics (Dex) = Tumble + Balance + Fly
-Athletics (Str) = Swim + Jump + Climb
-Concentration (Wis) = Concentration + Autohypnosis + Control Shape
So I would separate Concentration from Spellcraft (since you don't have to be a spellcaster to be able to concentrate) and I would tie the skill to Wisdom instead of Con.
-Endurance (Con) = a new skill, used to simulate the ability to perform long term physical efforts. It would also allow to remove the feat Endurance from the game since one could emulate its effects with a successful skill check. Additionally, but it's really just a house rule of mine, an Endurance skill check could allow a dying character to stabilize by itself.
-Deception (Cha) = Disguise + Bluff
-Leger demain (Dex) = Sleight of hand + Escape artist (+ Use Ropes but it's already been removed). The perfect skill for the street magician!
-Open lock (Dex) I would not combine it with Disable Device because I don't think the two skills work the same way. I think that Disable Device, Int based, is more a matter of cleverness than an finger agility contest.
-Disable Device (Int) I would keep this skill separated from Open lock for the reason above. Another reason isthat I think, with the removal of Search, that there would be too few Int based skills for rogues.
-Perception (Wis) = Spot + Listen. Perception would not include Search wich was based on Int
-Intimidate (Str) I would make this skill Str based because I think physical intimidation is always easier than subtle intimidation. That said, a feat could allow to swich Strengh for Charisma (in fact that's just the opposite of what appears in the alpha^^)
Concerning the other skills, I would keep the list presented in Alpha 2.