Check out proflie for my quick test build of Igor.
My early build impressions:
-Under bloodline feats for undead: Skill Focus (K(religion)) sounded cool until I realized K(rel) wasn't a class skill; Spell Focus(Necro) sounded obvious until I went to choose spells, then Toughness sounded better for the early levels.
-Skill choices: I wanted to get intimidate, but the size modifier kills the idea of my 'undeadness' frightening folks; Deception has been broken apart and only bluff is a class skill; So I went with the standards and taxidermy.
-spell choice: I had forgotten that I would need 'read magic' to avoid rolls to use scrolls (Wizards get it free- why not sorcerers?), 1st level necro spells left me uninspired as chill touch overlaps the bloodline ability, ray of enfeeblement is a favorite- but not as the only attack spell, and cause fear is short duration. I went with mage armor for defense and found 'Backbiter' in spell comp.- which made spell focus more attractive. I like the idea of only attacking those who attack me.
-I was disapointed to not get the arcane bond. I was looking forward to my 'one ring' after seeing it was possible to combine enchantments in one item. This left me feeling shorted. I was also disappointed not to have any undead polymorph spells. While I won't get any such spell for many levels, it sounded like it would fit my bloodline to turn into undead with a short-term spell.
Early Impression: I came into this build excited with the bloodline, but it didn't last. I didn't get the feel I expected from the bloodline as it had limited effect on my spells. I guess I expected a bloodline to define a theme to my spellcasting, but it didn't seem too. Perhaps after I add some levels.
My basic impression: I would definately take a few levels of Sorcerer, but, unlike the wizard class, I would definately multi-class and the sorcerer levels would be the add to the other class, not the reverse. Maybe monk/sorcerer or the obvious cleric/sorcerer. Barbarian/sorcerer would also be interesting, but I haven't gone into the Pathfinder barbarian yet
Welcome to the world of low level spellcasters. As you're now coming to realize, the Skeleton Claw power on the Sorcerer is basically completely useless. We've been through this with the Monk, the Mind Blade, the Draconic Heritage, and many more - if you have a feat or class feature that is a free sickle, then your feat or class feature is worth slightly less than six gold pieces. And in D&D land, that ain't much.
Moving on, there are some really great Necromancy resources on the web. My personal favorite, for obvious reasons, is:
The Revised Necromancer's Handbook
And it brings some harsh truths to light as regards Sorcerers and Necromancy:
There are three necromantic base classes of note: the Wizard, the Cleric, and of course the Dread Necromancer. There are a number of other classes capable of using Necromancy (Sorcerers, for example), but they rarely do it well and often fail in surprising ways. Many of the signature Necromancy spells are used very rarely (Create Undead is not a spell to be used every day, or even during adventures generally – it’s a downtime spell) and the vast majority of characters with “spells known” are completely unsuited to necromancy in the traditional sense. Spell preparation is definitely the way to go, with the notable exception of the Dread Necromancer who has such a large list of spells to spontaneously cast that she might as well have a spellbook. There are some surprisingly good spells nominally of the necromancy school on the Druid and Wu Jen lists, but as they are not thematically related to what we think of as “Necromancy”, these spellcasters will be dealt with elsewhere if at all.There's several things working against you as regards a low level "necromantic" sorcerer:
- Most Low level Necromancy spells blow. Sorry, but chill touch is not an adequate way to express your hatred for your enemies. Low level attack spells are things like color spray and sleep, not a frickin sickle hit.
- Anything you can do, I can do better. All the really good Necromancy spells are used only extremely infrequently. Animate Dead is ideally cast just once per character level, meaning that having it available to be cast spontaneously is meaningless.
- What are you doing in melee? Most low level necromancy spells are extremely short range. And until you get to ghoul touch and shivering touch, those spells don't even kill your enemies. Low level arcane casters are made out of papier mâché, so running up and slapping enemies with non lethal attacks is basically just writing your DM a suicide note so that you can make a real character.
- Why aren't you a Dread Necromancer? If you insist on playing an undead-themed spontaneous caster, the Dread Necromancer is like a gajillion times better at doing that than a sorcerer will ever hope of being. That's not even hyperbole, because the Dread Necromancer already knows all the spells you were even considering, and she has better and more flavorful class features. And despite being better than you in every possible way, people generally don't even consider Dread Necromancers to be broken - which probably says more than a little about your current life direction.
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The Sorcerer Necromancer has never been a viable character concept. The Pathfinder Alpha 2 ruleset does not even begin to cover the holes. And while I would like nothing more than for the classes like Warmage and Dread Necromancer to be folded up into the Sorcerer Class as various Magical Influences, I'm not holding my breath considering how defensive and angry Jason got when people laughed at Sorcerer Alpha 2.
-Frank
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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I think Igor sounds like one helluva interesting character to play! Like Frank states Sorcerers are not the best of Necromancers, but you're playing a caster with a hint of the undead, not necessarily a complete focus on it. Low level Necromancy spells are kind of weak, but it doesn't mean you have to take all of them. Thematically you could take Magic missile and have them be little glowing skulls that scream when you cast them! Or instead of relying totally on Necro spells you could focus on Cold themed spells too, like Ice Knife that does Dex damage as well IIRC...
And to be frank Frank, only a few people laughed at the PF Sorcerer... pretty much just you, K, Viktor_von_doom and CastleMike. It was hardly a sweeping sentiment. Some said there were places it could be improved, but you just brushed it aside with a pretty snide attitude.
What kind of feedback are you looking for? I don't want to be dismissed as an "optimizer," but your character seems on the weak and, more importantly, boring side. Backbiter is a spell with very situational utiity, so basicaly you'll be running around trying to gank people with your grave touch.
Your solid AC and the fact that you make touch attacks means this will *kind of* work -- but not especially well, and you're fragile.
Personally, I wouldn't play an arcanist that basically plays like a guy with a shortsword -- I expect my magic to be a little more flashy, to say nothing of effective. But hey, if you really get off on hands covered in dark power, this might be just the ticket.
Several questions:
Do you think your test sorcerer would have been more FUN to play if your Undead Bloodline Sorcerer was a little more effective in game?
Instead of the GRAVE TOUCH mechanic do you think receiving an ability like Cause Fear or Ray of Enfeeblement or perhaps something new like a 30' ranged Reversed Disrupt Undead attack (Basically Disrupt Living Attack 1D6 + 1 HP level) would make the Undead Bloodline Sorcerer more Fun to play?
Would it be more fun to play the sorcerer if the class had a few more known spells?
What two things would you suggest changing to the designers to make a first level Undead Bloodline Sorcerer more FUN to play?
When I read the alpha, I was immediately hooked. I was inspired to build a character I'd always passed on- a specialist wizard. I usually have so much trouble choosing which schools to give up, I just play a straight wizard. But the new pathfinder specialist grabbed me.
When we got hints from Jason on alpha 2, I was captured by the idea of a sorcerous Bloodline. I thought here's a hook that will make a sorcerer I'd want to play. Thus Igor was born. I dived right in after a quick read of the revelant sections and posted the result.
At present, I'm not satisfied. I think my emphasis is too much on necromancy, instead of concentrating on being kin to the dead. My fault for drifting from sorcerer to wizard.
What are your suggestions for a do-over? First would be a different race. Halfling adds nothing to the class, though I do like them. What changes should be made? Is another bloodline going to make the character?
The goal of this is to see whether I can build a bloodline sorcerer that I can show to someone who hasn't read the alphas and get them to try Pathfinder. I can already do this with fighter, rogue, cleric, and wizard, but I figure if I can convince me to play a sorcerer, I can convince anyone in my group.
That said, the stated parameters are:
-able to survive standard encounters
-able to contribute to the party
-use bloodline as the 'hook' the character is based on
-super efficient is -not- the goal, but being effective is
-single class is prefered, but I'm leaning towards multiclassed
The resulting character should be someone you might not want to play, but would want to have in your party.
I'll give Igor a second try, this time at fourth level so I can multiclass if necessary.
Please chime in with ideas. I want to feel the same about the sorcerer as I do about the core classes.
Either way this comes out- Jason and all: I am loving being a part of your creative process. Pathfinder is a pleasure to tinker with.
P.S. Please can I have an arcane bond like the wizard? I would love a familiar or a bonded item. Though I probably don't need the extra spell from the bonded item, I would like the crafting ability. Maybe let the item give me a sudden metamagic feat or let me cast touch spells through it instead of the extra slot?
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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I would stick with the halfling just for the size bonus to Hit and AC. His Dex and Int boosts also make you spells harder to resist and more likely to hit with ranged touch attacks. It also boosts your Initiative!
Swap Backbiter for Ray of Enfeeblement for some ranged capability. You don't have to worry about size for your Grave strike ability (unlike a claw attack)!
Your AC with Mage Armor is 17 (+1 size, +2 dex, +4 armor)! That's not bad for a 1st level wizard.
Don't take Spell Focus so early as none of your spells have saves as of yet anyway! Choose Improved Initiative and act before everyone else or Weapon Focus (Ray) for another +1 to hit, note you'd be +4 to hit with ranged touch attacks! Don't worry about regular touch spells till you can take Spectral Hand.
Get the drop on your foes by hitting the warrior or cleric with Ray of Enfeeblement! Stay back behind your teammates for cover. Once they engage the weakened enemy you can easily finish them with your Grave Touch, ensuring they don't stabalize as your Alles move on to other targets.
None of the Sorcerer abilities are particularly helpful at first level. Corrupting Touch is a good set up for charm person, but as it actually ends before you get a chance to cast anything, it's worthless unless you have another Arcane caster in the party. As a sorcerer you have Simple Weapon proficiency, so all the abilities that are a cheap replacement for a morningstar are insultingly bad. Your party will never be glad that you had Abyssal Claws or Aberrant caustic grasp. Neither will you. That leaves only the Arcane Bond, which can get you either a familiar or an extra spell slot off a ring; or the Destined Touch, which allows you to go around giving the other players a +1 bonus on whatever they are doing. Personally, I'd go with the second option because you'll be a fairly marginal character and giving bonuses to the other players is a good way to avoid the resentment which accompanies playing a character that has to get rescued a lot.
As a Sorcerer, you pretty much live and die by color spray at first level. Go Gnome for the double bonus to Save DCs, and accept that your AC will never be particularly good. Grab your choice of silent image or charm person for your second spell, and try to be useful. Spend your time just behind the other characters and attack via Knight Moves as often as possible with your high DC color spray of multi-target death.
And yeah, you would in literally all ways be about a thousand times better as a Beguiler. But Beguilers are way too powerful and it is entirely possible that your DM won't let you play one, and this character would be able to cover that position almost as well in some ways.
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The idea of a guy who naturally casts forbidden magics is cool from a role playing standpoint, but there are no forbidden magics on the sorcerer/wizard list for first level characters to have. Even in the Book of Vile Darkness and Heroes of Horror there isn't anything that's especially "forbidden" that a first level Sorcerer could get.
And if you were going to use Heroes of Horror material, not only would you still not care about bestow wound, but you'd take the same flavor you have been struggling with and make a much better character with a Dread Necromancer.
-Frank
For low level games for a blaster type I liked the Battle Sorcerer Variant taking two feats Precocious Apprentice for Scorching Ray to fuel the Reserve feat Fiery Burst at 2D6 averaging 7 hitpoints before a Reflex save in a 5' Radius over plinking with a Cross Bow before discovering the Beguiler class.
That could be modified to a Level 2 Necromancy spell like Ray of Sickness or Life Bolt or False Life to fuel a Necromantic Burst doing the same thing.
Take two on Igore.
I like this much better than Igor. He was an attempt to make a solo class sorcerer, which PrimeMover003 did much better than i did. Igore is a brute with the -feel- from his bloodline I was looking for. He is not a primary spellcaster, but he should work well. At level one, a barbarian works, at level two he gets sorcerer bloodline, and from then on he is set. Major weakness is a low ac, but he has hp's. Also, if you cannot add grave touch (a melee touch) to his gauntlet punch, I would switch his feats to Imp. Unarmed combat and Improved grapple. Some magic protection and such and I'll be good. As he levels, he alternate barb and sorc, so at higher levels he'll have more spells and a harder punch.
What do you think?
What I have learned is that for me, sorcerer is not a single class character. I'm too attached with the utility of having as many spells as I can learn, as soon as I can learn them to play the sorcerer as only a spell caster. But I must say that I like the way he multi-classes. Igore fits my test build requirements. Yet again, Pathfinder has provided me with a character that is, rather than is heading to a prestige class.
My wishes for sorcerer?
-Bonded item- possiblity allowing me to use for touch spells instead of additional casting
-more spells known (use int stat to provide more known spells as per bonus)
-more skill points and more skills (but that will always be true)- I would like to give each bloodline some class skills, at least the ones they could get skill focus for
-more in the way of higher level bloodline powers- These don't make me crave them
- to get a look at the feats enhancing sorcerer and barbarian I know will be seen eventually
-A polymorph to undead spell on par with the other polymorphs
But I don't -need- these things- Igore Proudfoot already works. THANK YOU, PAIZO FOLKS! -niel
You can't add Gravetouch to a Spiked Gauntlet attack. In fact, the spiked gauntlet is pretty lousy for this character. Consider ditching the Sorcerer levels entirely and just stay Barbarian until you can go Frenzied Berserker. Just having some regular armor, a shield, and a warhammer is more than all your spells do, and you'll get more skills, hit points, and BAB out of the deal.
I'm really not seeing anything that you're getting out of first level spells that justifies a loss of rage points, hit points, and attack bonus.
-Frank
I'm really not seeing anything that you're getting out of first level spells that justifies a loss of rage points, hit points, and attack bonus.
You don't see the utility of having the option to enlarge myself or my allies? Or to cast a spell that gives a plus 6 to my strength for one minute along with a 1d6 slam attack with 1.5 times my strength added to damage? Or that I can do both then rage? (admittedly for a shorter time then a single class barb.) You don't think having a free feat that adds 3+(1perlevel) hit points makes up for having 2d12 and 2d6 hit die instead of 4d12? And the attack bonus is only 1 less than 4 levels of barbarian. And clarity of mind means if i need to, I can cast in the middle of a rage.
I knew the gauntlet/ grave touch was iffy- but i thought maybe and if not Improved Unarmed Combat works too.
Thank you for your input, but I must respectfully disagree. You and I have different outlooks on what we want from a character, let alone a class.
No. I don't think that a spell that increases strength and doesn't add to weapon damage rolls is worth having to give up wearing armor or lowering your BAB and Rage for it. That spell is interesting, but it's really not very impressive. And anything which compares poorly to just taking more levels of Barbarian is problematic.
-Frank
For me, I think the chance to give a Demoralizing Display, shout "RAGING FIST OF STONE", and enter combat, is enough to make this character fun. I don't want every character to be optimized. That would remove the challange from the game. I prefer to strive with a character that gives me thrill.
But we disagree. And thats fine as long as we don't share a table. And we won't, by mutual choice.
Enjoy your day.
p.s. If I may ask a rather rude question of Frank and others, Why have you listed no profile? When I see an intelligent post, even if its one I don't agree with, I check the poster's profile to see how he describes himself. I look on it like an introduction. And yes, I realize that the profile has only what was entered, not always what is true, but I still look. My apology if the question offends, but I am curious as to your reasons, if anyone would like to comment.
For me, I think the chance to give a Demoralizing Display, shout "RAGING FIST OF STONE", and enter combat, is enough to make this character fun. I don't want every character to be optimized. That would remove the challange from the game. I prefer to strive with a character that gives me thrill.
Let me see if I can get this straight.
Player asks for optimization advice. Trollman gives optimization advice. Niel pipes in with "I think this is a good optimization choice!" Trollman disagrees. Niel replies with, "Well, I don't want my characters to be optimized anyhow!"
...
The rest of your post is just as painful.
1. Raging Fist of Stone sounds like Tome of Battle. (I weep.)
2. Optimization doesn't remove the challenge from the game--unless, of course, you feel that you can optimize a fighter to the point where he can defeat any equal-CR. (You can't.)
3. You like playing characters that make the game harder. Might I suggest a shadowcaster from Tome of Magic? It seems like it would be right up your alley. (In truth.)
Psychic_Robot do you ever add anything constructive to these boards or do you just tear down other posters in a very personal way. Your attitude is pathetic. Stop belittling people personally and instead add some constructive criticism. Every post I see from you makes me want to vomit. You should be banned from this site.
Meanwhile the Igor Proudfoof(Nice name tribute BTW) Necro build does sound interesting from a RP perspective. I would have to see it progress before determining if the additional Sorcerer abilities add enough punch to put the build on an even keel with other PC's of the same level.
One of my players is retooling his 12th lvl Sorcerer now. I will post the playtest results soon. Can't wait, I've been highly anticipating the new Sorcerer.
Psychic_Robot do you ever add anything constructive to these boards or do you just tear down other posters in a very personal way. Your attitude is pathetic. Stop belittling people personally and instead add some constructive criticism. Every post I see from you makes me want to vomit. You should be banned from this site.
Oh, the irony. If you'd like to continue this discussion, please send me private message or whatever these forums have as their equivalent.
Yes the irony, but it had to be said. It had to be put out there. I'm already done with it. I don't know if this site has a private messaging feature.
I apologize to everyone for interupting the thread with this.
Yes the irony, but it had to be said. It had to be put out there. I'm already done with it. I don't know if this site has a private messaging feature.
I apologize to everyone for interupting the thread with this.
Indeed.
Your arrogant generalization coupled with a stubborn tenacity to ignore that several people have posted facts to counter most of your arguments is a hallmark of what we call fanaticism. Like many people involved in religion you choose to cling to your belief in spite of overwhelming evidence from others that your opinion may be misguided.
This means you would make an excellent Clerical character.
Oh the irony.
Psychic_Robot do you ever add anything constructive to these boards or do you just tear down other posters in a very personal way. Your attitude is pathetic. Stop belittling people personally and instead add some constructive criticism. Every post I see from you makes me want to vomit. You should be banned from this site.
No offense man, but calm down.
A: I've seen you insult PR on another thread, so you're being a bit hypocritical (incidentally, he disagreed with you there, so apparently it's only ok to insult people who disagree with you?).
B: He didn't really say anything offensive, he was mildly sarcastic. So let's not be so dramatic (really, he made you want to vomit? With a post...on a forum...about a game...that takes place entirely in your imagination?)
Nice. I was hoping you'd catch that. I like to bring things full circle. You're posts always aggravate me to no end.
To get this back on thread. What are your first impressions of the Sorcerer changes PR?
Psychic_Robot do you ever add anything constructive to these boards or do you just tear down other posters in a very personal way. Your attitude is pathetic. Stop belittling people personally and instead add some constructive criticism. Every post I see from you makes me want to vomit. You should be banned from this site.
No offense man, but calm down.
A: I've seen you insult PR on another thread, so you're being a bit hypocritical (incidentally, he disagreed with you there, so apparently it's only ok to insult people who disagree with you?).
B: He didn't really say anything offensive, he was mildly sarcastic. So let's not be so dramatic (really, he made you want to vomit? With a post...on a forum...about a game...that takes place entirely in your imagination?)
Ok here's a positive for PR. He seems to be good with game mechanics and notices a lot of details others miss in terms of games mechanics in his posts.
And yes I've had a lousy day at work...highly aggravated.
I still want to hear opening thought on Sorcerers though.
And I did want to vomit...a little...maybe...kinda sorta...not really lol.
If I may ask a rather rude question of Frank and others, Why have you listed no profile? When I see an intelligent post, even if its one I don't agree with, I check the poster's profile to see how he describes himself. I look on it like an introduction. And yes, I realize that the profile has only what was entered, not always what is true, but I still look. My apology if the question offends, but I am curious as to your reasons, if anyone would like to comment.
I don't normally make a profile on any message board. I use my actual name, so anyone who really wants to find out things about me can do so, but I see no reason to dump stuff into any particular forum avatar. Heck, I'm likely to stop posting here as soon as Pathfinder is done with the open playtest in any case.
-Frank
Thank you for answering my rude question, Frank. BTW, we do have something in common. I use my real name, too. But my last name is a bit too much for casual conversation. (It's deAlteriis, so it doesn't exaclty flow off the tongue.)
To return to the idea of the thread, I would like to hear from some fans of sorcerers. Until Pathfinder, I wasn't one, and I'm still not a fan of a single class sorcerer. You don't have to tell me about having lots of spell slots, I got that. But what is it about sorcerers that makes up for lack of skills, lack of spell choices, and slow spell level progression?
If you haven't already, please look at the profiles of Igor and Igore to see what I came up with.
But lets just skip the debate over 'why even play one'. That question isn't going to be decided here, and both sides are just repeating themselves. And neither is going to alter their opinion.
Thank you for answering my rude question, Frank. BTW, we do have something in common. I use my real name, too. But my last name is a bit too much for casual conversation. (It's deAlteriis, so it doesn't exaclty flow off the tongue.)
To return to the idea of the thread, I would like to hear from some fans of sorcerers. Until Pathfinder, I wasn't one, and I'm still not a fan of a single class sorcerer. You don't have to tell me about having lots of spell slots, I got that. But what is it about sorcerers that makes up for lack of skills, lack of spell choices, and slow spell level progression?
If you haven't already, please look at the profiles of Igor and Igore to see what I came up with.
But lets just skip the debate over 'why even play one'. That question isn't going to be decided here, and both sides are just repeating themselves. And neither is going to alter their opinion.
I play Sorcerers for the challenge. They force you to use spells in creative ways rather than just resting and using a better spell.
Thank you for answering my rude question, Frank. BTW, we do have something in common. I use my real name, too. But my last name is a bit too much for casual conversation. (It's deAlteriis, so it doesn't exaclty flow off the tongue.)
To return to the idea of the thread, I would like to hear from some fans of sorcerers. Until Pathfinder, I wasn't one, and I'm still not a fan of a single class sorcerer. You don't have to tell me about having lots of spell slots, I got that. But what is it about sorcerers that makes up for lack of skills, lack of spell choices, and slow spell level progression?
If you haven't already, please look at the profiles of Igor and Igore to see what I came up with.
But lets just skip the debate over 'why even play one'. That question isn't going to be decided here, and both sides are just repeating themselves. And neither is going to alter their opinion.
I just like the flavor of them.
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why to play a sorcerer?
well, one character i play thinks magic is his plaything and his dragon-given-right to use and abuse.
(things like d-door'ing to the bar to get a barrel of beer, then d-door'ing back to the boat with it....while less than 100' from said bar)..
can't do that with a wizard, unless you want to spend LOTS of money on scrolls
another character simply wouldn't work as a wizard...WAY too chaotic and unlikely to want to study/memorize/scribe spells. just wanted to fireball and then fireball some more.
so, i guess mostly the LOTS of spell slots / day with a side dash of the flavor of the sorcerer, particularly the dragon-blood bits
-the hamster
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http://files.meetup.com/47142/FrankTrollman%20and%20K%28eith%29%20rules%20p df.pdf
I decided to look up Frank because he said that I should and that's something I turned up. Haven't read it yet but you can tell that he and K have spent a good bit of time on analyzing the game. Now whether or not I agree with their changes, that's a different matter, but they are somebody you could listen too.
http://files.meetup.com/47142/FrankTrollman%20and%20K%28eith%29%20rules%20p df.pdf
I decided to look up Frank because he said that I should and that's something I turned up. Haven't read it yet but you can tell that he and K have spent a good bit of time on analyzing the game. Now whether or not I agree with their changes, that's a different matter, but they are somebody you could listen too.
I play Sorcerers for the challenge. They force you to use spells in creative ways rather than just resting and using a better spell.
That's what I love to see out of players, creative spell use. I've seen grease used in some amazing ways by Sorcerers.
Okay. so Now I've learned that I like the flavor too much not to consider playing a bloodline sorcerer, but not enough to play one single class. And I've heard from both fans and foes of the class.
Most importantly, I've gotten some minor experience building a bloodline type or two.
Is anyone intersted in seeing a third version of Igor, or of seeing a higher level of Igore? If not, I think I'll close this discussion off after thanking all who chimed in.