The prices are there as a guideline, for sale of the items, bartering of items and the cost of producing items. It doesn't say that the items are commonly for sale. The GP limits on cities apply to everything that can be purchased there. It is not magic specific, although I would say it applies to them. Wealth guidelines and treasure guidelines are about the magic that has been accumulated / retained over the lifetime of said NPC / monster. It doesn't indicate if they are passing numerous items through their hordes frequently or not. Magic is relatively common among adventurers I'm sure. It's a large factor in why people adventure. I just don't think magic should be substituted for technology as a simple, common commodity. It's a matter of taste I guess.
What else would they apply to, if not magic items? The limits go up to 100,000 gp (even without any extrapolation for really big cities, since Metropolis is 25001 or more people. That would be Korvosa in its better days, which might have broken the 25000 limit. It's also Absolom, with its 300.000+ inhabitants). Short of a Mansion or other huge building, I can't think of anything nonmagical that could cost more - and huge buildings are not usually something that's just for sale.
DMG, page 137, under Community Wealth and Population: "Anything having a price under that limit is most likely available, whether it be mundane or magical. While exceptions are certainly possible, these exceptions are temporary; all communities will conform to the norm over time."
So, in a metropolis, items (including magic items) with a price of under 100,000gp is most likely available. I'll grant you leeway for very exotic or special stuff, including arms and armour with several enhancements, which I'd say isn't generally available, but basic stuff most certainly is: Stat buff items of all strengths (non-epic at least) on their usual slots (gloves of dex, no codpieces of dex and so on), rings of protection, amulets of natural armour, cloaks of resistance, most martial weapons, and many simple and exotic ones, as well as most types of armour, with only enhancement bonuses. All that will probably be available in all strengths.
And lets stick to cozy little Korvosa, with its 40,000gp limit and 32,856,000 gp assets. For me, that still means all stat buffs, cloaks of resistance, rings of protection in all but the strongest version, all armour, and +4 weapons, are most likely available, in the more common variations. Not to mention expendables
Now, of those 32 odd million gp assets, I'd say mundane stuff would make up, say, about 1000gp per head, or about 18M (and I suspect that it's a lot less). That's still almost 15 million gp in magic items for sale. With the lower stuff being more common I'd think, that will probably be thousands of items. Call me crazy, but I'd say that they're sold mostly in shops. There aren't thousands of people looking to sell single magic items.
The cutting off of posts while replying is apparently intentional - though I can't think of a reason for this, since it's easier to cut your reply short if you just want to refer to a post in general than it is to get the rest in again if you want to address specific parts.
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I like it's change, it sucks that a Wizard/Sorcerer have to use XP to do anything when NONE of the other classes have XP costs.No one else is going around crafting powerful magic items either... if they had powers to equal that, I'm sure people would be howling for "balance" and costs.
I've been playing 3E since it came out with various people and groups. Do you know how many people crafted items (that weren't scrolls?) None. Not when it costs feats, xp, and time. An NPC can do it for you.
Paizo's new system makes it so if you have a NPC do it for you, you have to wait months. Or if you do it, your party sits around doing nothing for months.
Which I'm fine with, makes a lot more sense then losing experience.. how do you lose experience doing something anyway? You should be gaining it.. particularly if you'd never done it before.
Arghh!! Long post just eaten... and I have work to do. Grading too many papers. It's what I get for being a teacher. To quote the governator himself: "I'll be back".
Two long posts gone... nonetheless, I will persevere. And this time I'm copying the damn thing before I try to post it *sigh*
What else would they apply to, if not magic items? The limits go up to 100,000 gp (even without any extrapolation for really big cities, since Metropolis is 25001 or more people...
DMG, page 137, under Community Wealth and Population: "Anything having a price under that limit is most likely available, whether it be mundane or magical. While exceptions are certainly possible, these exceptions are temporary; all communities will conform to the norm over time."
Well, it might apply to jewelry or art. look around for the prices at modern auctions of famous / valuable items. I have a different view of magic than your... almost industrial view. In any event, you have marshalled your information well. I just don't happen to interpret it the same way. KnightErrantJr has a great quote inn this thread that speaks to the point. To wit:
"But, while its not "core," the Magic Item Compendium addresses some of this. In that source, they point out that if you are in a city that has a gp limit for what you are looking for, you can make a gather information check based on the item's level, and track down someone that either has an item you are looking for willing to sell it, or a spellcaster willing to make the item for you."
This is more the style in my game. Players have to look to find the item or craftsman who can make it, not just walk into a shop and plop down their GP. All kinds of adventures coming out of this as players barter unwanted items of their own, attempt grand theft magic, go on quests or missions, etc. Not just walk into a shop and see it in the display. I don't want magic to be that... mundane. Generally my players don't need specific items that badly either. The results of 30+ years (1975-2008 and counting) in the same campaign world is numerous adventuring opportunities, NPCs to act as triggers etc. It's a "sandbox" game to use the current parlance in CRPGs. They aren't restricted to a specific adventure and generally don't go where they are not equiped to go (knowingly anyway, sometimes heh heh it happens). I'm too tired to drag myself back over the whole thing (it's 2:15 AM as I type and I still have about 10 to grade and i've already typed this in detail twice *cross fingers for the lucky third try*) so this will have to do.
Anyway, to each their own and, hopefully, everybody will have fun...
*edit* Woohoo the post made it! It wasn't swallowed by the odd gods of the internet this time! When I have a massive amount of spadework (like grading) to do I reward myself with breaks to keep on going, like checking the boards or posting here or playing a short CTF game in my favorite shooter etc. Tonight it was almost more torture than the grading though...
I've been playing 3E since it came out with various people and groups. Do you know how many people crafted items (that weren't scrolls?) None. Not when it costs feats, xp, and time. An NPC can do it for you.
Paizo's new system makes it so if you have a NPC do it for you, you have to wait months. Or if you do it, your party sits around doing nothing for months.
Which I'm fine with, makes a lot more sense then losing experience.. how do you lose experience doing something anyway? You should be gaining it.. particularly if you'd never done it before.
Just a quick reply (I'm shirking grading at the moment). I don't see experience as a measure of memories or knowledge, just power. Putting some power into the magic item is what makes it work. As for adventurers not having the time, or the desire to expend XP, yeah, your'e right, they don't. It's why they adventure. In any event, it depends on how you see XP. If XP is just knowledge, you are right, it shouldn't be lost. If it represents your slowly increasing magical power, then it could be a magical power source for items. losing it doesn't deny your memory / knowledge, just your arcane power / soul / what have you...
Two long posts gone... nonetheless, I will persevere. And this time I'm copying the damn thing before I try to post it *sigh*
Tried the Back button of your browser? That usually helps when my posts are eaten.
Two long posts gone... nonetheless, I will persevere. And this time I'm copying the damn thing before I try to post it *sigh*Tried the Back button of your browser? That usually helps when my posts are eaten.
I tried, but it went to a blank post page and then back Paizo's main page. I suspect my wireless connection was having it's problems. Of course, the time I did copy the post it worked...
I tried, but it went to a blank post page and then back Paizo's main page. I suspect my wireless connection was having it's problems. Of course, the time I did copy the post it worked...
I can't see how the wireless would cause it, and these boards are infamous for eating posts.
What browser are you using? I'm using Opera and it retains the posts when I go back.
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I have been running D&D since 1979 with basic and expert editions. I have to say that I have never liked xp costs to anything and got rid of them looooong ago. It makes no sense whatsoever. I feel that those that argue that by paying an xp cost you are somehow imbuing the item with the characters lifeforce are being lazy. Why? Well if that were truly your objective you would explain what exactly in the game the lifeforce drain does to the character and have them react and play accordingly. Instead, they get told: "Oh, that costs you 100xp." and it's forgotten. Tell me of an interaction with a player that because they had to pay an xp cost they suddenly felt like it was a better roleplaying experience. This arbitrary mechanic does nothing to improve the roleplaying aspects of the game. If you want the creation of magic items to be tied in with their lifeforce than make positive energy effects have less of an effect, negitive energy or death effects have more of one, or whatever you want that makes sense for you.
Ok, so the second argument is a fear that magic will become too common and not special enough. This is already the case for many. What's special about a +1 sword. Kinda loses it's mystical aura when it's boiled down to just the game mechanics, doesn't it? I see this argument as being one of flavor in the campaign. The rules set up a baseline for us to work from. If you want more magic than you make it easier to acquire, if you want less you make it more difficult. Who am I or anyone else to tell you what is right? That being said it seems that those who want the xp system to stay are afraid of what their players will do. If you see them doing something you don't like put in house rules for it. I allowed a wizard in my Age of Worms campaign to create unlimited magic items with no gold or xp cost. He was secretly evil but found that his and the parties goals aligned and so hid the fact that he would sacrifice some of the creatures they defeated to create wonderfully themed and unique items. He had to do this at the creatures death, and he had to hide it from the rest of the "good" party, and while he would let me know what he was trying to do I always had the abilty to tweak it to fit my needs or vision. He would take a -2 to his con because he was a tribal blood shaman and would mix his blood with the sacrifices to bind it too him. With these limitations it was never and issue. Created a pair of lizard man skin bracers of natural armor from the lizard king in Blackwall Keep, created a wand of webs out of the front leg of Flycatcher as it lay bleeding to death, and enchant the barbarians sword by entrapping the occulus demon within it (that one was a mixed blessing for the Chaotic Neutral barbarian wielding it). Anyway, the point is that you customize things to the level of play you want from the simple baseline. Did the above character "break" my campaign? Did he go out and sell as many items as he could to make money? No, instead it added ALOT of roleplaying, flavor, and truly valued unique items to the mix (if too many items ever became an issue (which it didn't) than I could just take some out later). Who wants that lousy old sword +3 when I have THIS one with the spirit of the demon I slew in it?!
To those economists out there. You can come up with reasons things "should" work one way or another til the end of time. If the "free-market" system was working like it "should" than our economy would be much better off than it is. To you I say, make your economy work the way you feel it should because we can't. I'll make mine work the way I want it too.
To sum up what is being argued about is power level of the games and that has always been in the hands of the GM. XP costs are for those who want the comfort of not having to think too deeply on the subject and want a arbitrary handicap in place to keep their players in line (by all means if you need it, keep it). I for one am all in favor of streamlining things in favor of a better roleplaying experience, which is why we all do this, right?
Dark Arioch, all right... let's get that "who is the oldest grognard thing" out of the way. I started playing D&D in 1975. DMing same year. Used every version of D&D except the Basic, although I freely stold ideas from it :) I am d@mn old. You have the advantage of me sir! Be kind to your elders... and if you're older than me... hah! Take that you old geezer!
I'm not going to even try to use the "reply" button to that post Dark Arioch, as the quote would go on too long and trail off into dots... I will answer it though. The bad news is that all the rules are arbitrary. What made rolling a twenty sided die, or any other mechanic, a "real" or "natural" representation of anything? It's an arbitrary mechanic. They all are. It's all about role playing. If your player's can't role play putting their soul / self into something... it's not the rules that are the problem. It's the players. Or how you, the DM, present it. If you make it about as exciting as a trip to the book keeper, that's how they'll treat it. If you talk about the pain and sweat, the soul rending flow of power out of them and into this new item, almost child, of theirs... you get a different reaction. Amazing how possessive they can get when they look at it this way.
Role playing is what it's all about, and it sounds like you've had some good stuff going. The point is, the mechanics can almost always be a good springboard for the role player. If you let it.
The economics of magic item manufacture aren't all that exciting. I think most people worry more about the play balance of the campaign. There are a lot of ways to manage that, with or without using XP. The question is which you want to use. Ease of use is part of it. Rules don't have to be hideously complex to work. Simple is OK if it does the job. The method used also has to "jell" with your idea of magic. Obviously the XP cost doesn't go with your ideas of magic. That's fine. Oh, btw, if you want a whole magic item system based on things like bound demons, elementals, etc. try looking over the Elric / Stormbringer games from Chaosium (the old ones, based on Runequest, not the D20 version). You may have already, you're about the right age for it. All the items were bound "somethings". Never looked at a magic sword quite the same way after that :) Anyway, ultimately, you "pick your own poison". Have fun with it.
I tried, but it went to a blank post page and then back Paizo's main page. I suspect my wireless connection was having it's problems. Of course, the time I did copy the post it worked...I can't see how the wireless would cause it, and these boards are infamous for eating posts.
What browser are you using? I'm using Opera and it retains the posts when I go back.
I like living dangerously, I use IE7. I had some problesm with Firefox a while back and I haven't gone back to it yet. And IE 7 was sitting their, waiting... For the most part it seems to do the job and, unlike IE 6, it's use doesn't signal an invasion of numerous viruses into your helpless PC.
The post should have been there when I back peddled to it, It wasn't though. I noticed afterwards that my connection was intermittent (the router is on the other end of the house), although I'm still not sure why it went back to a blank post page. Unless of course it all *is* a plot and they are out to get me... nah.
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Actually, i already knew that from your earlier post (so it wasn't a competition) but I understand that at your age sometimes you forget what you did 5 minutes ago. ;-D
Generally my players don't need specific items that badly either. The results of 30+ years (1975-2008 and counting) in the same campaign world is numerous adventuring opportunities, NPCs to act as triggers etc. It's a "sandbox" game to use the current parlance in CRPGs.
Anyway, I was going over your last post and could find nothing to disagree with. Yes, I have of course read Elric and probably almost every other major and quite a few minor fantasy novels out there. These young whippersnappers nowadays don't even know what a book is. "What?!?! You read something that is NOT online? How quaint". Point was the mechanic is fine without the xp costs built into it. If you want to add something to it (like putting xp costs back in) than do so. Looks like the majority don't like the xp costs so why keep them and if people really think about what they want to get out of xp costs than they will hopefully go with something better and more meaningful. The gold mechanic still gives plenty of control over items if all your concerned about is whether there are too many of them or not. As to why people are arguing about if magic shops or wizard schools exist or not is completely a flavor issue that each should decide for their own campaign.
and yes.......I am always this long winded.
I remember in 2nd addition getting xp for item creation. XP is experience point which means its the experience taken away from various situations you went through. I never liked spending XP, it seemed wrong to give up these memories and experiences. Then again I still miss AD&D.
I agree. I always found XP loss to be nonsensical. Why would item creation make you lose experience? Even if you think of experience as a nebulous life force and you are sacrificing some of that in item creation, which works beautifully thematically, it still doesn't make sense in terms of world logistics. Why is anyone making magical items...why would Vecna craft such wondrous things for a lieutenant if it cost him personal power? Where are all these insane mages sacrificing parts of themselves making these things that the PC's find, at the AD&D level let alone the 3.Xe ye olde magik shoppe levels.
If anything you should gain power form the insight in permanently tapping arcane forces into a physical object. Which was just that in AD&D. It was balanced by not allowing item manufacturing to be a commodity based endeavor based on just handing over a certain amount of gold. But one of time, effort, and roleplaying. I actually thought THAT system was too hard on the players again running into the issue of WHY anyone would go to the trouble.
You wanted to craft a shield or sword? Then you had to put in a half dozen levels of nonweapon proficiency slots into Armor or Weaponcrafting, and then just to have a poor chance of crafting that high quality item, given the checks were Strength based I think. Then go out and get the secret arcane and thematic ingredients to charge the weapon. No buying them at a town, at least not all of them. And the many spells needed to enchant and make permanent the magic. All with opportunities for complete failure. Typically a wand of X charges required you to actually CAST X number of spells preventing infinite wish scenarios (especially with the 5 years of life cost of a wish spell).
But any number of those limitations could easily prevent abuse...especially the limited magical reagents, though that might lead to a whole nother modern problem. Arcane poaching of soon to be endangered monsters for their eyes, gallbladders and sundries. That and those "incidental" costs for selling an item should not be incidental. There are taxes to be paid or licenses to be purchased for selling in a town. That should not be trivial especially for a class of dangerous luxury items like magic. Setting up a reputable shop also costs money. Certainly no PC would just take the word of some guy on the corner that this wand of fireballs is the real thing with the number of charges the seller claims. Why would NPC's do the same to a PC crafted item? You'd probably want some insurance in case of accidental duds, cursed items, or other mishaps. You might want guards for your merchandise unless you plan on spending ALL your time in that shop. So yeah I don't see the PC's doing better than breaking even unless they are committed to item crafting exclusively.
Back to the ultimate arbiter "does this make sense in the PC world", ie why would NPC's do this? Well the XP gain, the money made for being committed to it, and it's generally safer than adventuring. Perfect for the ancient wizards in tower types doing research rather than killing Outsiders every week, slowly gaining levels over decades from continuous magic creation.
Losing xp for makingn items is one of the stupiest rules of 3.0 and 3.5.
Please get rid of it..
Seriously, you spend time,effort and money to make something..taht is an accomplishment..
In real life, you learn from this kind of achievement..i.e. xp gain..
it is the most blatant example of what was wrong with 3.0..trying to balance power levels with no sense of actual logic.
One thing that occurred to me about removing the XP costs from item manufacture and increasing the GP / time costs. Elves should really be loaded with items. I mean NPC elves of course. PC elves are usually youngsters who are just out of their proverbial diapers. With centuries of time to make items and earn money... your average NPC elf whose been around for more than a few human lifetimes has just had far more opportunity to "make magic" than anyone from a shorter lived race. Should be a walking magical arsenal in comparison to any human of the same level but much younger in years... make your money casting spells, doing work, maybe adventuring occasionally and then crank out the goodies until you're loaded for bear (or ogre, or dragon, or whatever). Nothing a PC could take advantage of, but great for NPCs.
Xp costs are lame. I house ruled them out years ago.
Yep, me too, but Pathfinder can leave it in and just have a comment like, "XP costs are an optional rule to be used or cast aside as the DM wishes."
No biggie either way. Rules are a suggestion to me. If I think its a bad suggestion I get rid of it.
Well, XP cost removal is not a good thing, or more exactly the lack of real costing resource in order to make magic items is not a good thing. With the system given in PRPG alpha, crafting magic items costs gp to create and are sold for… the double value of gp, Yes !
So crafting magic items become a very easy way to get rich or to get the funds necessary to craft even costly magic items. As soon as a spell caster can start crafting magic items, there is no way to control is wealth. And why characters would buy magic items if they can have them at no cost for half price ?
It's easily controlled, to get the gold they have to find someone to sell it to. That's assuming they can find/buy the rare ingredients needed to make it in the first place. As the DM you control that.
I've always kept a tight rein of magic items in my games, where rather than buying for gold at the "magic item shop" they players need to either trade another magic item, commission it construction or go on an adventure to get the rare materials to make it themselves.
If you follow the treasure per encounter guidelines, these craft feats are going to throw things off by a crazy amount. Just one character with "Craft Wondrous Item" and a party willing to spend some downtown between leveling up and spending cash, is going to multiply the party's effective wealth level by at least one and a half, add a few more crafting feats in there, and you get closer and closer to double the magical item value for the entire group. In the mid to higher levels of a D&D game, most of a character's "power" comes from his magical items (this is, in fact, a very problematic downfall of the system -- but it is a reality that has to be faced). How many rods of quickness can your wizard afford? For one feat, you can have twice as many, that is a ridiculous boost to character utility! You could just reward the party less gold to meet the wealth guidelines but that doesn't seem fun to me. It would seem like you were penalizing the player for picking the feats.
The XP cost was a serious way to balance the usefulness of the feats. You could have double the treasure value, but you'd be trailing behind the rest of the party in level. I'm not saying it was good, or fun, the way it works in the SRD, but it was designed with an eye toward the whole Encounter Level and Challenge Rating system, which, in my experience, was a remarkably accurate tool if you stuck to the Wealth by Level guidelines in the DMG, and kept the splat book power creep to a minimum.
By getting rid of the XP cost for the craft item feats, you are throwing off the balance of the CR/EL system more tremendously than any other change I've seen you make to the system.
One might argue that my points are pedantic -- that every DM will know the capabilities of the party depending on what classes they have, and what equipment they have. This is true. Back in the old days, we didn't even have CR, so we designed encounters by gut and experience mostly. One of the up-sides to the 3rd Edition of Dungeons and Dragons was that they worked on tools to make it easier for DMs to design adventures -- mainly the whole CR/EL system, which really also includes the Wealth by Level guidelines as well.
If Paizo is planning on using the new Pathfinder system to sell supplements like Adventure Paths and the like, how are they going to balance the adventures to work with characters who are 12th level and have X amount of gold value in items, and a whole party of characters who are 12th level and have 1.75 times that amount. Is that really balanced by the cost of a few feats? I'd say absolutely not, in my experience.
Easy. Abolish wealth by level guidelines. Industrious PCs shouldn't be punished. Then limit the ability of wealth to buy powerful magic items.
The problem, in this case, isn't the ability of wealth to buy magic items as it is the feats allowing you the ability to make them (at half market value).
And if you eliminate the ability to buy items, you make acquiring these feats even *more* advantageous to the party. I think perhaps a better solution would be to eliminate the ability of PCs to create any magical items at all, and just have their acquisition be controlled by the GM, or moderated entirely through the "purchase" system of gold. Alternatively, eliminate the feats and allow any spellcasters to create items, but at full market value cost.
Easy. Abolish wealth by level guidelines. Industrious PCs shouldn't be punished. Then limit the ability of wealth to buy powerful magic items.The problem, in this case, isn't the ability of wealth to buy magic items as it is the feats allowing you the ability to make them (at half market value).
And if you eliminate the ability to buy items, you make acquiring these feats even *more* advantageous to the party. I think perhaps a better solution would be to eliminate the ability of PCs to create any magical items at all, and just have their acquisition be controlled by the GM, or moderated entirely through the "purchase" system of gold. Alternatively, eliminate the feats and allow any spellcasters to create items, but at full market value cost.
how about making it cost more than one feat..
1st feat +1/+2 items
2nd feat +3/+4 items
3rd feat +5/+6 items
so someone who wants to craft things is not going to have the feats available that a mage devoted to blowing things up would (i.e. empower spell etc..).
By getting rid of the XP cost for the craft item feats, you are throwing off the balance of the CR/EL system more tremendously than any other change I've seen you make to the system.
I agree with you and Bleach. This single sentence really sums up the problem with the proposed rule.
Under this proposed rule change a single PC feat really throws outs the balance of the CR/EL system.
With the Leadership feat a single PC can have a NPC Cohort with lots of Crafting feats basically doubling effective PARTY WEALTH instead of bumping up individual and party wealth because there is no 1/25th market cost experience break.
A single PC feat like Craft Wondrous Item which is already strong becomes broken because there is no crafting experience brake against abuse. In any game starting with a few or more levels a single PC can take the Craft Wondrous Item feat and have everyone in the party double all their Craft Wondrous Items wealth since they have been adventuring together since first level. Suggested wealth by level is 9,000 GP at L5 and 760,000 GP at L20.
All I am saying is that removing XP costs and increasing gold costs is making the game more dungeon crawl dependent.
Some of us are playing mainly urban intrigue, where neither PCs or NPC are magic item chrismas trees (so there is no blanace problem), but if you need these large lumps of gold, for, say, spells you are forcing the players to dugeon crawl if they want to ,for example, resurrect their buddy.
XP cost allow the DM to lessen the "whack-fantastic-beings-guarding-random-piles-of-gold" factor. Substituting gold costs ups the "lets-kill-the-green-skinned-things-i-need-to cast-a-spell" factor. Not a good thing in my book.
I personally find the abuse scenarios implausible. In most cases, it's a problem with the player and not the rules (as Guardians of Order pointed out).
The lack of an easy way to get email notices for new posts in a discussion thread has led to me completely forgetting about this discussion. Rather than trying to reply in the full context of everything that has appeared here since my last post, I'll just give a summary of my attitude:
There are a lot of problems with XP cost, and the supposed "benefits" are things that you can get elsewhere. The argument that prior to third edition making magic items was too difficult and nobody wanted to do it is absurd, considering that the majority of people I've encountered are less prone to creating magic items with an XP cost than they ever were before.
The very fact that you need a different feat for every different kind of magic item you want to create consumes some character advancement opportunity already, without having to drop an XP cost on things as well, so it's not like XP provides some kind of unique benefit in that respect. All XP costs do is ensure that you have to figure out some way to justify losing advancement you've already gained -- or, in the case of XP debt, justify your character absolutely failing to learn anything for a while. The feat purchase requirement, however, actually makes in-game sense, since you might need to learn a new skill (not in the game mechanics sense of the term "skill") to create a magic item.
The "giving up a part of your soul" explanation, by the way, pretty much translates into "If your character were a real, breathing human being, (s)he would never ever want to pay such a dear price for something so transient and ultimately unimportant as a +2 dagger -- especially if (s)he's just going to give it to the party's rogue." While it might help to provide some kind of suspension of disbelief (though not much, since the mechanics don't really match up with the explanation very well) in terms of having an explanation for how it works, it also hinders suspension of disbelief because of the fact that it's pretty difficult to believe there are enough magic items in the world to outfit a medium-level party of adventurers with such an astronomical cost.
. . . unless, of course, you can sacrifice other people's souls in bloody rituals, in which case only evil people should have magic items. I guess that's not a huge problem if all your PCs are evil.
Ultimately . . .
1. Doubling the GP cost and removing the XP cost will probably still ensure that most spellcasters will never create a magic item.
2. I have huge suspension of disbelief issues with XP costs and debts.
3. Game balance is really damaged by XP costs and debts.
4. If Paizo for some reason goes back to XP costs, I'll house rule them out. Period. In fact, I house ruled them out of my own D&D games, as have half the DMs I've played with, even before Paizo came along and suggested double GP cost as an alternative, and the result has absolutely not been a glut of magic items being created by PCs. In fact, I've only ever seen one PC create a magic item, and that was in 2nd Edition AD&D back in the early '90s.
The removal of XP costs seems to be a dangerous slippery slope for me. I don't usually like characters creating magic items anyway, and this seems to open the door for all kinds of abuse. Having PCs crank out wands of useful spells seems like it'd be a particular nightmare.I am going to admit that I am pretty entrenched on this one. My question for you is, do you give you characters so much wealth that they can pull this off. XP is not much of a cost all things considered, compared to GP.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I respect your (and everyone else on this side of the debate on this) opinion on this issue, but I have to disagree. I think that there's merit to the XP cost in item creation. Adventuring is not the only thing the characters do to gain additional power. The very act of leveling up implies a furthering of their abilities and a deeper understanding of whatever it is that they do (for casters it's more arcane knowledge, clerics are more knowledgeable in their faith and religion, etc).
However, when a character takes time away from studying, training, and practicing - all things that reinforce what they've learned - you would expect them to "fall behind" others that don't take time away from this. A character that invest the kind of time it takes to create a magical item is taking time away from these sorts of things, and the relatively minor XP cost (even for more powerful items the costs are relatively minor by comparison to the power of the item) is a fair representation of that.
Now I don't like the XP cost simply for casting a spell. If it's something that has such a strong "drain" on the caster (such as "taking part of their soul" or "energy of their soul/life force") have a CON drain (or INT... Whatever) instead. That would seem more appropriate - or even a permanent loss of hit points (instead of a CON point, as they would take hit points, lower saving throws, and could affect a few other things all at once) instead of a CON point or something...
Instead of losing a level (since that does seem counter-intuitive to have a 9th level Wizard not able to make an item because he'd drop back to 8th level when an 8th level Wizard could make the item and still remain 8th level), make a "negative XP" count that the Wizard has to "pay back" through XP gains before they "advance" as normal... So, they can create items without fear of losing a level (unless it's something that takes a VERY long time, and/or VERY intensive work without a stop or break (and I don't mean hours, or up to 1-2 days off here and there)). Since it's highly unlikely that someone would be doing something that's a "side job" for so long they'd forget or get THAT rusty on the training and skills of their vocation.
You could simply apply this negative XP idea across the board for all magical item creation - so that XP is not reduced at all, and that it'd only matter when it came time to level up (at which time you'd have to have "paid back" all negative XP to be able to level up). It would effectively apply a very similar (the same, really) mechanic to demonstrate personal investment, and a time investment, to something that is not really the trade of their character's class/vocation.
And, for items being made for someone else (such as a party member), why not make them pay half of the XP cost? It'd balance the XP costs out for other classes when they would be gaining items from the character crafting them and help alleviate the problem of one character being held back by comparison to the rest of the party.