Not if the system of "every skill goes up one rank per level" is removed. The DCs don't "automatically" increase. The DC to disarm a trap isn't "the disarming character's level + 15". Your argument sounds as though we're playing a computer game rather than a tabletop game.
Opposed checks.
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I really like the new skill system. I didn't dislike the rankless system, but it had some major problems like the roguedipping. In the new system, it doesn't matter which class I take at first level when I plan to multiclass (something I always hated). It also makes creating NPCs and monsters a lot easier than the 3.5 system. It may not be as simple as the pathfinder 1.0 system, but it allows a much greater customization.
I'm fine with the return to skill ranks, but I did like the ability to train a new skill every other level. Perhaps we can get +2 bonus skill ranks every other level instead? It's not as dramatic as training a new skill, but it does boost the skill point totals (most dramatically for the 2+int mod crowd). Besides, I liked getting stuff every level.
Not if the system of "every skill goes up one rank per level" is removed. The DCs don't "automatically" increase. The DC to disarm a trap isn't "the disarming character's level + 15". Your argument sounds as though we're playing a computer game rather than a tabletop game.Except unlike the company in the normal world, the D&D analog is having its absolute taxes go up every year. If you don't post higher profits, you literally are falling behind.
Every level the DCs you are faced with increase. If your bonuses don't also increase, you have fallen behind.
Let's just pretend for a moment that we are using the encounter guidelines in the Dungeon Master's Guide, OK? A 10th level character is expected to be confronted with DC 30 tasks (DMG, pg. 31). If you're a 10th level character, and you can't do that, you are a hobo who is mooching XP and treasure off the rest of the party.
-Frank
Director of Games
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Hello everybody,
Concerning Skills. I know there are a lot of folks who feel passionate about the variety of skill systems that have been floated out there. As of this moment, the skill system presented in release 2 is officially "firm". This system accomplishes a lot of the goals that we had for skills, and many of the goals that you, the playtesters, had. First off, it is mostly backwards compatible. This system does not really affect monster skills at all, and PC skills are only slightly altered. Second, it is simpler to use. No more irritating multiplication or purchasing half ranks. Finally, this system allows flexibility. One of my own biggest concerns about the release 1 system is the lack of flexibility. You were either completely untrained, or a master for your level. This was lacking.
So, while I invite discussion. The skill system is pretty firm in my eyes and I do not foresee a drastic redesign in the near future.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
PS - Lets not tell anyone on these boards to "shut up". These sorts of attacks will force us to take action. Everyone here is encouraged to share their ideas. Feel free to share yours, but do not attempt to close out others or insult them just to prove your point. If you point cannot stand without such tactics, please keep it to yourself.
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If you want the simiplicity of the Alpha1 skill system, then at each level when you gain "Class Bonus + Int" skill ranks, just assign them always to the same exact skills, you'll find that it comes out the same. Or you can always house rule to use the A1 system. If they ever do an Unearthed Pathfinder(Arcana) book I'm sure they'll present the A1 method as a variant skill system. Heck they might just even include that in the main book, which would be nice. Kind of like they give multiple options for starting hit points.
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So, while I invite discussion. The skill system is pretty firm in my eyes and I do not foresee a drastic redesign in the near future.
Fair enough. Once again, thanks for listening to our feedback. I believe several of us have the looking-for-perfection-when-things-are-just-fine gene. I'm happy with things the way are.
They took my idea. Oh I'm so proud... *wipes away a tear*
Hello everybody,
Concerning Skills. I know there are a lot of folks who feel passionate about the variety of skill systems that have been floated out there. As of this moment, the skill system presented in release 2 is officially "firm".
I have just dld alpha 2.
Nice work mister Bulmahn!You had very good reasons to drop the 3.5 point system for skill.
It was my favorite aspect of the first alpha release.
I am sorry that you have decided take a step back.
The skill system developed in the Alpha 1 was elegant & compatible.
I hope you will include some alternate system (a la Alpha) as a side note
in the final product.
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Director of Games
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I hope you will include some alternate system (a la Alpha) as a side note
in the final product.
I probably will as a matter of fact. I liked the system, but it went against a number of my stated goals. I think it is fine for GMs who are willing to put for the effort when it comes to converting existing product, but for those who are not, it was an unneccesary burden.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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Director of Games
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They took my idea. Oh I'm so proud... *wipes away a tear*
Let no one say that I am not listening to some of the great feedback I have gotten from you guys. This process has been trying at times, but it has given me a wealth of ideas and inspiration.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I really like the new skill system. I didn't dislike the rankless system, but it had some major problems like the roguedipping. In the new system, it doesn't matter which class I take at first level when I plan to multiclass (something I always hated). It also makes creating NPCs and monsters a lot easier than the 3.5 system. It may not be as simple as the pathfinder 1.0 system, but it allows a much greater customization.
I hate to say it, but "roguedipping" happens all the time. The very fact it already has a name is suggestive that it's been a problem with 3.5. There are those players that min/max the system; always have been, always will be.
For my part, I much preferred the rankless system (or as I called it, the "Maxed Out" system) because it can serve to balance characters out.
Example: a friend played a Half-Orc fighter with an INT 8. That means that he got 1, yes 1 skill point, or rank, per level. Now, if he ever wanted to be good at anything, it could only be in one skill. He could spread around his skill point, but he'd never be that good at anything. With the rankless system, his skill base could, and would, increase, allowing even a lowly, slow-witted fighter to have a decent skill set, eventually.
The rankless system doesn't lessen versatility, it simply changes it. We still choose a new feat every few levels to add to our repetiore, now we'd choose s new skill every couple levels, too.
Here's a compromise: Rankless system, no cross-class skills (always HATED that name anyway). All skills have a rank equal to your Hit Dice, plus modifiers. Class skills get a +3.
DogBone
P.S. The Paladin (pg. 19): Shouldn't they have d10 Hit Dice? After all, they do use the Fast Attack Progression chart.
They took my idea. Oh I'm so proud... *wipes away a tear*Let no one say that I am not listening to some of the great feedback I have gotten from you guys. This process has been trying at times, but it has given me a wealth of ideas and inspiration.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Then again I plead, can we get bonus skill points at levels we don't get feats? Please? Pretty please? With sugar on top?
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P.S. The Paladin (pg. 19): Shouldn't they have d10 Hit Dice? After all, they do use the Fast Attack Progression chart.
EDIT: Jason just answered that.
By the way, Jason, great job! I'm glad skill ranks remained. This project is simply awesome, it really improves Dungeons & Dragons, unlike....well let's not get into that.
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Director of Games
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Then again I plead, can we get bonus skill points at levels we don't get feats? Please? Pretty please? With sugar on top?
No need to plead. This is a fair idea and one that I have thought of. When I said that the skills system is firm. What I meant was that it will not recieve another complete redesign. Tweaking, however, is still quite possible (and probably likely).
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
My only comment would be that it really sucks to have 2+ skill points per level for a cleric, fighter, sorcerer, or wizard. Of these, the wizard is the only one likely to have much of an intelligence bonus. I'd vote to bump every class's skills per level by 2 or at least redistribute them between 4 and 8.
Bard and Rogue - 8 per level
Druid, Ranger, Barbarian, and Monk - 6 per level
Everyone else - 4 per level
I really like the Alpha 2 skill system. It addresses my biggest annoyance (cross-class) and gives me less math : ) Plus I love the return to skill ranks since that lets me keep the customization that I want. Count me in as one very happy gamer. Really good work on this one.
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Concerning Skills. I know there are a lot of folks who feel passionate about the variety of skill systems that have been floated out there. As of this moment, the skill system presented in release 2 is officially "firm". This system accomplishes a lot of the goals that we had for skills, and many of the goals that you, the playtesters, had. First off, it is mostly backwards compatible. This system does not really affect monster skills at all, and PC skills are only slightly altered. Second, it is simpler to use. No more irritating multiplication or purchasing half ranks. Finally, this system allows flexibility. One of my own biggest concerns about the release 1 system is the lack of flexibility. You were either completely untrained, or a master for your level. This was lacking.
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Good to hear, I like the Alpha2 for pretty much the same reasons, especially how versatility was sacrificed for simplicity.
One of my own biggest concerns about the release 1 system is the lack of flexibility. You were either completely untrained, or a master for your level. This was lacking.
So, while I invite discussion. The skill system is pretty firm in my eyes and I do not foresee a drastic redesign in the near future.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I am sorry to hear that. I understand the need for backwards compatability, but the rankless system seemed to work. To me at least.
And I don't mean to sound mean-spirited to say, but what D&D games have you played? In my games, EVERYONE is either completely untrained or a master at their level. There is no in-between. Take it from me, I tried to have "in-between" skills, and it was a disaster. I could never reliably use those skills as they were; they might as well have been left untrained. The points would have been better spent keeping my primary skill set maxed out. And once your prime skills fall behind, it's very hard to catch them back up.
Oh well...I appreciate you at least listening to player feedback. Paizo seems to be the best at it. Keep up the excellent work.
DogBone
One thing the 4th edition fixes in a moderate way is the ridiculous gap between a trained stealth user and a normal dude. There's very little or no chance for the normal dude to spot the stealth user. A quick fix would be to decrease the ridiculous amount of synergies and other bonuses received from here and there.
How is this a problem? If Sho Kosugi (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0467563/)is in my game, and he wants to sneak past 50 mook-level guards, they probably DON'T have any chance to spot him. Moreover, they shouldn't.
Sorry, I don't get this move towards mediocrity thing that people seem to want out of skills. If I invested 20 levels in stealth, I think the least I can expect is that the 10th level guy who didn't specialize in Perception has basically no chance to spot me.
Philosophical rant aside, I see merits in both systems, but I'd like to see one more iteration that might be able to blend them both. Not sure how though...
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Then again I plead, can we get bonus skill points at levels we don't get feats? Please? Pretty please? With sugar on top?
What about something like this (from another thread)?:
If I were to have one suggestion, though, I would recommend increasing the bonuses to class skills with level, so that the distinction between a maxed out class skill and non-class skill at level 20 is not +20 vs +23. I would suggest a progression that increases the bonus to class skills by +1 every four levels, starting with level 2. This would result in the following bonus to class skills:
Level 1: +3
Level 2: +4
Level 6: +5
Level 10: +6
Level 14: +7
Level 18: +8
Ability bonuses with a duration greater than one day
actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours.
Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This
might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other
bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case
they are removed.
I see it now, thanks. One day... seems a little short. It doesn't make it totally clear that if you loss the Int bonus you loose skill points.
No matter that. I don't know if Mr. Bulmahn caught that last little bit of discussion about retroactive intelligence and balancing it against loss, without having to recalculate skill points. To restate, loss of Intelligence gives all trained skills a -1 modifier. This is far harsher then just loosing skill points (for characters with wide spread skills), but like the alteration to Negative Levels and Level Drain it is simpler with nearly the same (or harsher) result.
Psychic_Robot, as the board mangled your post I don't want to miss read your comment. Are you saying that a Feat should not grant skill points because Feats and Skills should be separate? While I would agree that Feats should not be bought with Skill points, I don't see why a Feat cannot grant them?
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They took my idea. Oh I'm so proud... *wipes away a tear*Let no one say that I am not listening to some of the great feedback I have gotten from you guys. This process has been trying at times, but it has given me a wealth of ideas and inspiration.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
And this is why we love you. Because unlike a certain company "Sorcerers of the Shore" ;) you actually listen to the fans and care what we have to say.
I've seen numerous changes in Alpha2 that were taken directly from the boards. (No XP for magic item creation, my personal favorite. Now if we can just fix Level Adjust, I'll be in complete heaven.)
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It doesn't make it totally clear that if you loss the Int bonus you loose skill points.
I should have pasted this over as well...
Ability Damage and Ability Drain (also from p. 116)
Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal
damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not
actually reduce your ability, but it does apply a penalty to many
of the skills and statistics that are based on that ability.
For every two points of damage you take to a single ability,
apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the
relevant ability…
Intelligence: Damage to your Intelligence score causes
you to take penalties on Intelligence-based skill checks. This
penalty also applies to any spell DCs based off Intelligence.
Ability drain actually reduces the relevant ability score.
Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This
might cause you to lose skill points, hit points, and other
bonuses. Ability drain can be healed through the use of
spells such as restoration.
Ouch! It certainly seems like he wants you to go back and subtract all the ranks you gained because of Int bonuses. Probably not that big a deal because determining ranks is so much more straight forward now. You're 5th level and loose 2 Int points, no more +1 skill point at each of your levels: 5 x -1 = -5 skill points, probably one from each skill.
I don't know if Mr. Bulmahn caught that last little bit of discussion about retroactive intelligence and balancing it against loss, without having to recalculate skill points. To restate, loss of Intelligence gives all trained skills a -1 modifier. This is far harsher then just loosing skill points (for characters with wide spread skills), but like the alteration to Negative Levels and Level Drain it is simpler with nearly the same (or harsher) result.
This is an idea that still merits consideration.
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I prefer this flexibility. If I want to use an Alpha 1 style of design for my NPCs, I can do this, by simply maxing out the appropriate number of skills and never, ever thinking about skill ranks at all. But for PCs, or NPCs who have some depth or background, I can go ahead and throw a few ranks here or there.
The ultimate in flexibility, since I can micro-manage ranks individually or just max out X number of skills, with the same system.
One of my own biggest concerns about the release 1 system is the lack of flexibility. You were either completely untrained, or a master for your level. This was lacking.
So, while I invite discussion. The skill system is pretty firm in my eyes and I do not foresee a drastic redesign in the near future.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo PublishingI am sorry to hear that. I understand the need for backwards compatability, but the rankless system seemed to work. To me at least.
And I don't mean to sound mean-spirited to say, but what D&D games have you played? In my games, EVERYONE is either completely untrained or a master at their level. There is no in-between. Take it from me, I tried to have "in-between" skills, and it was a disaster. I could never reliably use those skills as they were; they might as well have been left untrained. The points would have been better spent keeping my primary skill set maxed out. And once your prime skills fall behind, it's very hard to catch them back up.
Oh well...I appreciate you at least listening to player feedback. Paizo seems to be the best at it. Keep up the excellent work.
DogBone
If every one in your group is playing at with mastered levels of their skills, then your DM will have been setting DC's appropreate to that, which is why it will not have worked well, try getting your entire group to spread their skills a little thinner, while asking you DM to take this into account by putting in more skill checks at lower DC's.
I'm sorry to see ranks return. I think the Alpha 1 was too generous a system and that the Scaled version proposed in the [Design Focus] Skills thread was the way to go. My players have been using it for the last several weeks and really like it. Enough that we're going to keep using it regardless of the new system.
The Scaled System solved virtually all the Alpha 1's problems (to many skills available regardless of class, first level mattered too much, etc). It also made cross-class skill worth taking (1/2 level +3 is a decent bonus for a secondary skill in Stealth, Perception, etc). It makes keeping track of skills and creating high level characters easy. It makes it possible to acquire new skills at later levels even if you're in a low skill class at non-incidental levels.
The only change we made was to add diversity so that you could spend one skill choice to purchase two class skills at cross-class levels (we called them minor class skills). You could later upgrade two minor class skills to full class levels by spending a second skill choice on them. For flavor skills, that is statisically insignificant skills like hobbies or rarely used professions, I just had my players role play learning it and I gave them a +2 circumstance bonus on any related checks.
I'm sorry to see the return of a rank system of any kind.
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After reading this thread and reading over the document, I think Alpha 2 has addressed all the old concerns that were posted in the Design Focus thread. I for one like the new system despite the fact it went back to ranks. Alpha 1 was a good system but this one is better. Keep up the good work Jason.
Many of the concerns about not being maxed out in skills are missing a fundamental issue. Detection is always going to be in favor of the detector not the detectee. A party tries to sneak past a guard, this means that all four of the people have to beat the guard's perception. Even with maxed out skills all around that is only going to happen about a 16th of the time. One person sneaking past 4 guards, about the same odds.
Also, if the DCs scale with the skill levels, then why even have either increase? If you have to roll a 15 to by-pass the lock at 1st level, and at 20th level you have to still roll a 15 to by-pass these harder locks (which seem to have replaced every other lock), you haven't actually gotten any better. You might as well keep everyone at zero skill value and set the DCs at 15.
The new system is very elegant, it allows for characters that can do multiple things and are skilled in what they want to be, not just their class stereotype. But it manages to avoid the problem Alpha 1 had of being able to take your first level as a rogue and then 19 levels of wizard, and being just as good as a 20th level rogue at all rogue skills plus having a huge repertoire of spells.
I really did not care for the skill slots option. It struck me as too unrealistic. I am very happy with the compromise in Alpha2.
Then again I plead, can we get bonus skill points at levels we don't get feats? Please? Pretty please? With sugar on top?No need to plead. This is a fair idea and one that I have thought of. When I said that the skills system is firm. What I meant was that it will not recieve another complete redesign. Tweaking, however, is still quite possible (and probably likely).
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I think the bonus skill ranks every few levels idea is cool. I can say personally, that if we must have ranks, that kind of thing would stop a lot of my griping (as it'd let players pick up new skills w/o sacrificing the old).
Is it possible to get the 2/4/6/8 changed to a straight 4/6/8? I know the HP streamlining was popular, and I assume that would be as well. Plus, again, it would allow fighters and clerics to do things.
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Not if the system of "every skill goes up one rank per level" is removed. The DCs don't "automatically" increase. The DC to disarm a trap isn't "the disarming character's level + 15". Your argument sounds as though we're playing a computer game rather than a tabletop game.Except unlike the company in the normal world, the D&D analog is having its absolute taxes go up every year. If you don't post higher profits, you literally are falling behind.
Every level the DCs you are faced with increase. If your bonuses don't also increase, you have fallen behind.
You're only taking stagnant DCs into account:
Such as Climb Wall: DC20
Fast Dismount DC20
Good Lock: DC 35
etc
What the post about Falling Behind is in reference to skills that checked via opposed rolls.
Stealth vs Perception
Bluff vs Sense Motive
If a character ceases increasing all of his skills for a level to diversify a bit and take up a new skill, then the NPC who didn't do this will be 'ahead of the game' so to speak. I know it's only 1 point at that level - but that would be splitting hairs; the point is still valid that you do fall behind. The more diversifying you try - the further behind the curve you get.
That being said; I think the Alpha 1 had a good philosophy - just done poorly - allowing WAY too many skills to be instantly maxed. The Alpha 2 is far better than the standard 3.5, but a system without skill points could be better.
That being said, the system is easier, backwards compatible, and does serve the purpose. Personally, i think a system of ranking "Half proficient" with one point (i.e. character level divided by two) and then "full proficient" (character level) would be more ideal and allow the diversification that many want and yet could still limit the bountiful amount that Alpha 1 provided.
That all being said - to address the "add intelligence modifier to skill that certainly benefit the wizard" issues and the "only 2 skill points for certain classes issues" (where again the wizard benefits from being the only class with 2 skills that really get a good boost from the Intelligence modifier rule); I say remove the Intelligence mod from affecting # of skill points, and make 4 skill points the minimum # skills for Fighters/paladins/sorcerers/wizards and clerics; then they're all equal again. And the wizard then doesn't wind up with three times the amount of skills as the sorcerer either.
Robert
A vote for keeping Alpha 2. It fixes all the worst calculation trouble of the 3.0/3.5 system and largely neuters roguedipping, all with absolutely minimal effects on compatibility.
I like it.
To Mr. Jason Bulmahn,
Fantastic! Going back to the skill point system was the right decision (and may have been a little hard to make) and solves alot of problems. Our group tried the Alpha 1.1 system and very much agree that "perfect or dismal" system just didn't allow for any customization. The new system is backwards compatible, easier and still allows for "class skills" outshining "cross-class skills". Most importantly, it means that skills remain a way to make sure your Fighter is different from other Fighters.
Thank you for your wonderful imagination, your patience and how open you have been to constructive criticism. That can't be easy.
The only thing I would suggest for the final version would be to consider eliminating some classes getting only 2 ranks per level. I'm not sure how I feel about it yet, but I can see others' arguments and would suggest a new minimum of 4 per level.
P.S. Thanks for returning Sense Motive to the skill list!
Some have started to compain that the INT modifier being added to your skill points per levels unjustly favors the Wizard, especially at first level, and should be removed or changed.
Changing to any other modifier would simply alter which classes are favored instead of fixing the problem and none of the others make sense anyway (except for mabye Wisdom). I think that the INT modifier makes the most sense and should remain.
Perhaps adding a flat number to skill points at first level (like 4 or 6) would help solve the problem. I don't think the game needs it, but I also would not have a problem with receiving some extra skill points every few levels (say every four or five). If this option is implemented then it certainly should never occur at the same level when a feat is received.
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I'm very happy with the redesign in Alpha 2. The notion of gaining more ranks to spend at later character levels (as mentioned above) is an interesting twist, and one that would not break the Alpha 2 system in my opinion. Nice job Jason! I think the Alpha 2 system is a great improvement over the 3.5 rules.
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Wow! A sho Kosgi reference! It's been a long time since the great ninja himself has been invoked - bonus points for you ... well done :)
If Sho Kosugi (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0467563/)is in my game, and he wants to sneak past 50 mook-level guards, they probably DON'T have any chance to spot him. Moreover, they shouldn't.
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Then again I plead, can we get bonus skill points at levels we don't get feats? Please? Pretty please? With sugar on top?No need to plead. This is a fair idea and one that I have thought of. When I said that the skills system is firm. What I meant was that it will not recieve another complete redesign. Tweaking, however, is still quite possible (and probably likely).
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I'm glad to hear it. If classes aren't getting more skill points to start, this actually would be a good way to do it. I really am in favor of people gaining new skills as they adventure, though I don't want to see them 'pop' to instant mastery. I'm curious to see what form this will take, but I'm glad you're going to see about trying it.
Any ideas for how ti could work?
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Just a quick note: I like skill ranks, and I prefer this v2 system over the v1 slots. However, I have 1 quibble:
Multiclassing potentially gives you amassive boost in skills, gaining +3 each to a whole host of new class skills. This is too front-loaded IMO. I think that instead, a multiclass character should be able to select a few of the new class skills to add each time he takes a level in that class. This can be a fixed number of skills (1-3 per level), or a number of skills equal to his Int bonus (minimum 1). So, if a Wizard takes a level of Rogue, he doesn't instantly gain the class bonus for all the Rogue skills, instead he'd select a few of them to add to his list of class skills each time he takes a level of Rogue, and after several levels he'll eventually have all or most of them.
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Just a quick note: I like skill ranks, and I prefer this v2 system over the v1 slots. However, I have 1 quibble:
Multiclassing potentially gives you amassive boost in skills, gaining +3 each to a whole host of new class skills. This is too front-loaded IMO. I think that instead, a multiclass character should be able to select a few of the new class skills to add each time he takes a level in that class. This can be a fixed number of skills (1-3 per level), or a number of skills equal to his Int bonus (minimum 1). So, if a Wizard takes a level of Rogue, he doesn't instantly gain the class bonus for all the Rogue skills, instead he'd select a few of them to add to his list of class skills each time he takes a level of Rogue, and after several levels he'll eventually have all or most of them.
I either misunderstand your point, or you misunderstand the system.
A wizard who takes a rogue level doesn't instantly get a bonus to all rogue skills - they have to be TRAINED to gain that bonus.
So such a wizard would have had to have take the rogue skills as trained at some point prior to multi-classing - then upon taking that rogue level he would benefit by a +3 applied to each of those rogue-class skills that he had TRAINED.
Robert
Then again I plead, can we get bonus skill points at levels we don't get feats? Please? Pretty please? With sugar on top?No need to plead. This is a fair idea and one that I have thought of. When I said that the skills system is firm. What I meant was that it will not recieve another complete redesign. Tweaking, however, is still quite possible (and probably likely).
Mr. Bulmahn,
Thank you for the revised skill system, which is in my estimation far superior to either of its predecessors (3.5 or Alpha 1.0). I'd hestitate to start throwing more skill points every few levels into the mix, however tempting it may seem -- if only because that's a sure way to kill the backwards compatibility that the new system has achieved. If that's the direction nearly everyone else wants to go, then so be it; it's just something to consider, is all. (Also, the skills consolidation to some extent makes the existing number of skill points go further than they used to.) I'd hate to make the rogue obsolete again.
Thanks!
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How is this a problem? If Sho Kosugi (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0467563/)is in my game, and he wants to sneak past 50 mook-level guards, they probably DON'T have any chance to spot him. Moreover, they shouldn't.
Sorry, I don't get this move towards mediocrity thing that people seem to want out of skills. If I invested 20 levels in stealth, I think the least I can expect is that the 10th level guy who didn't specialize in Perception has basically no chance to spot me.
Hm, I might have particularly chosen Stealth vs. Perception as my target. As you know, a whisper gnome from 3.5's Races of Stone can acquire a Hide bonus of +16 at 1st level. Some skills are simply just too easy to boost. And hiding with all kinds of dumb tricks, like XPH's Cloak Dance which gives you concealment, thus you are able to hide... practically in plain sight.
Now that I think of it, Stealth itself should get some sledging. I admit that being a superior sneaker is something one would likely to seek for. At the current time it's just too easy with certain builds.
On another point, diplomacy is a constant DC, yet a lot better than it was in 3.5. Since synergies were taking out, it balanced the skill somewhat. I might still see those Marshal/Warlock's roaming around with their +19 diplomacy.
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Just a quick note: I like skill ranks, and I prefer this v2 system over the v1 slots. However, I have 1 quibble:
Multiclassing potentially gives you amassive boost in skills, gaining +3 each to a whole host of new class skills. This is too front-loaded IMO. I think that instead, a multiclass character should be able to select a few of the new class skills to add each time he takes a level in that class. This can be a fixed number of skills (1-3 per level), or a number of skills equal to his Int bonus (minimum 1). So, if a Wizard takes a level of Rogue, he doesn't instantly gain the class bonus for all the Rogue skills, instead he'd select a few of them to add to his list of class skills each time he takes a level of Rogue, and after several levels he'll eventually have all or most of them.
I either misunderstand your point, or you misunderstand the system.
A wizard who takes a rogue level doesn't instantly get a bonus to all rogue skills - they have to be TRAINED to gain that bonus.
So such a wizard would have had to have take the rogue skills as trained at some point prior to multi-classing - then upon taking that rogue level he would benefit by a +3 applied to each of those rogue-class skills that he had TRAINED.
Robert
As I read the system, you don't need to be trained prior to taking the 2nd class, but you do need to be trained to access the +3 bonus. That 1 point expenditure can happen before you multiclass, when you multiclass, or even at some later level when again advancing in your primary class. Because, as written, taking even a single level in any other class causes all of those class skills to be added to your list of class skills for that character, permanently.
Maybe Jason Bulmahn can correct me if I'm wrong, but let's use this example:
A Wizard decides to take 1 level in Rogue to expand his number of Class Skills. To keep things simple, I'm just going to focus on 3 skills for now: Let's say that he had already bought Bluff as a Cross Class skill, he buys Perception on the level when he takes the Rogue class, and he buys Sense Motive the following level when he goes back to advancing as a Wizard.
The way I read it, Bluff and Perception both gain a +3 bonus because even though Bluff was originally bought as a cross class, it now gains the class bonus, as does Perception, which is bought on the Rogue level. Sense Motive does not yet gain the bonus because he has not yet invested 1 rank in it, but next level, when he does put a rank into it, it then gains the class bonus because the character has 1 level of Rogue, making Sense Motive a permanent class skill for that character.
Is that a correct reading of the rules, Jason?
Now, my proposal is this: When he takes that 1 level in Rogue, he has at this point only dabbled in the class, and has not had time to gain the class bonus in each and every skill belonging to that class. Instead, he is allowed to select a few skills (let's say 3) that he can add to his Class Skill List. He decides to choose Bluff, Perception, and Sense Motive. That means that Bluff and Perception gain their class bonus immediately, and next level, when he takes Sense Motive, it will benefit at that time. However, if he then also takes Stealth, he does not gain the Class Bonus for it because he did not spend enough time as a Rogue to yet master all it's skills. He'll need to take another Rogue level, giving him 3 more Rogue skills he can add to his class list, before he can do that. Since Rogue has 15 skills that Wizard doesn't have, it'd take 5 Rogue levels before he gains the Class Bonus with all of them, though if he has no plans to ever put a rank in a certain skill, it won't matter for it.
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I am sorry to hear that. I understand the need for backwards compatability, but the rankless system seemed to work. To me at least.
And I don't mean to sound mean-spirited to say, but what D&D games have you played? In my games, EVERYONE is either completely untrained or a master at their level. There is no in-between. Take it from me, I tried to have "in-between" skills, and it was a disaster. I could never reliably use those skills as they were; they might as well have been left untrained. The points would have been better spent keeping my primary skill set maxed out. And once your prime skills fall behind, it's very hard to catch them back up.
I like the new system, and it fits well with my games at home. Frankly, since so many skills have static DCs rather than opposed ones, it's very useful to have a few splashed ranks in a secondary skill or two. Almost every player in my (fairly large) local play group does this. The only person I can think of who doesn't also thinks that cross-class skills are a waste of time, and thus any prestige class that requires cross-class skill ranks is stupid.
To each their own, I suppose. Nothing works all the time in every game. Skill splashing works in my play group because most of the local GMs have game styles that support it. That's one of the things that I think people should keep in mind about the alpha, and about comparisons for Pathfinder in general: what works like clockwork in your game might be useless in someone else's, and vice versa.
Cheers!
Jeremy Puckett
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Director of Games
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A Wizard decides to take 1 level in Rogue to expand his number of Class Skills. To keep things simple, I'm just going to focus on 3 skills for now: Let's say that he had...
You are correct sir. It does indeed work that way. It was written this way to keep the bookkeeping simple. Once a class skill, always a class skill. You get the +3 when you put a rank into it (or when it becomes a class skill if you already have ranks in it). I do not mind, overly much, dipping into another class for the +3 bonuses skill bonuses really, since we are emphasizing sticking with one class.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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A Wizard decides to take 1 level in Rogue to expand his number of Class Skills. To keep things simple, I'm just going to focus on 3 skills for now: Let's say that he had...You are correct sir. It does indeed work that way. It was written this way to keep the bookkeeping simple. Once a class skill, always a class skill. You get the +3 when you put a rank into it (or when it becomes a class skill if you already have ranks in it). I do not mind, overly much, dipping into another class for the +3 bonuses skill bonuses really, since we are emphasizing sticking with one class.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Thanks for the reply!
Personally, I think the potential bonus of up to 45 skill bonus points for that Wizard with 1 level of Rogue (were he to put 1 point into each skill) is a bit excessive. With my current characters, I often will put a point into any skill that can only be used trained if it fits my character and I get a good Attribute Bonus for it (usually any that I get a +4, sometimes +3). That 1 point makes it Trained, and combined with the Attribute gets me a decent +5 or so... not bad if I have to make a fairly routine DC 15 or 20 check with that skill at some point.
The Class Bonus, though, will add to that even more. That 1 skill point investment will give you both the Attribute bonus and an additional +3 Class bonus, meaning for 1 point, it's quite possible you can have a +8 bonus on your roll... not bad at all! And even if you can use the skill untrained (meaning you already get your Attribute bonus), the 4 additional points for 1 skill point are mighty tempting to me.
Only choosing 3 class skills each multiclass level may add a bit to the bookkeeping, but it'd be very easy to handle... just have a box in front of each skill asking if it is a class skill for the character or not. All a player has to do is color in 3 squares whenever he gains a multiclass level, and if he has ranks in the skill, add the +3. (My current DnD character sheet already has such boxes).