I have noticed that there are a number of threads on Feats that question if they are worth the cost of taking, etc. There are a lot of feats out there in bacwards-compatible 3.5 land; a lot more than will ever be taken by a player through the normal life-span of his/her character.
I was struck with the idea (and I am yet to put it to my DM) that perhaps a lot of these issues could be solved by 'buying' feats mid-level with XP. (Though that is not to say that this rule is a caveat to sell at a discount subpar feats, rather that there are a lot of them to take and everyone would like an opportunity to take them).
To elaborate more, to buy a feat would cost a player an amount of XP(dependant on level & progression speed, to keep the cost consistent per level) and restrict it to buying X (either fixed or dependant on level) number per level (to minimise players exploiting Challenge Rating XP rewards).
This way, players can pick up more feats that they may not have necessarily considered taking at level advancement. It makes feat trees more accesible and gives better access to Metamagic feats for spellcasters. The offset is that Players may end up with lagging levels to their peers, but such is the price for extra abilities. Yes, it does make PCs a little more powerful, and/or it may make its own game balancing issues, but I think that it may have its bonuses in terms of the 15 minute working day.
Certainly, this is a half-baked idea that has not been put into practice. Does anyone want to comment?
Paizo has made it very clear that XP will not be used as a commodity in their game.
Paizo has made it very clear that XP will not be used as a commodity in their game.
Fair call :) Link or Page number?
I tried that a while ago and it didn't seem to go right.
First because of the xp value of a feat, which is very subjective and relative along levels, second because it was an open door to abuse.
If a player really wants to get a extra feat, he can eventually trade his ability bonus at a 4th level for that.
However, rules aside, it is always possible for a DM to give to a character a free feat, to reflect a change in the character (a change in the character's life, in his career or environment), or as a reward for an adventure (like a weapon training from a weaponmaster).
But that should be coming from the DM's decision, not the player's desires.
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However, rules aside, it is always possible for a DM to give to a character a free feat, to reflect a change in the character (a change in the character's life, in his career or environment), or as a reward for an adventure (like a weapon training from a weaponmaster).
I've done this a few times as a DM, and I find players enjoy it more than getting magic items or money or XP. Because feats are limited.
Usually they get one for completing a campaign, reflecting their actions over the course of several adventures. And I don't let them pick it, I choose it for them. But who would turn down a free feat!?
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This type of mechanic doesn't work well without some systematic accounting.
It's almost like getting into HERO only without having any points to track the overall power level of the character.
You'd need some way of mechanically (by that I mean the rules mechanics) compensating for the extra freebie feats.
If I had this option I'd just farm away for XP's or train or something and snag as many free feats as I possibly could.
As we speak, I'm attempting to work out a point-buy D20 system -- 3.5 and Pathfinder compatible -- where all skills, powers, saves, HD, feats, class features, etc. are purchased using XP.
I'm aware that Cooley Games actually got some math geniuses to crunch all the numbers so it'd be 3.5 compatible ("Buy the Numbers"), but the only vendor is DriveThruRPG and I can't get their site to work. So I'm reduced to crunching numbers myself, and it's a long and thankless chore.
I thought about this too.
The problem is just to adjust the xp-costs.
I was thinking of the following "rules":
1) Buying feats is cumulativ. 1st feat: f.e. 250XP, 2nd: 500XP, 3rd: 750XP, etc.
2) Each requirement increases the feats cost by a special amount.
Ability 13: 50XP (+25XP per +2), skills: 10 per rank (of highest), feats: +100 each, BAB: 25 per +1, special: 100XP flat.
Something like that.
The costs aren't tested anyway, but I guess you get a feeling about what I was aiming at.
I thought about this too. The problem is just to adjust the xp-costs. Buying feats is cumulativ. Something like that.
The costs aren't tested anyway, but I guess you get a feeling about what I was aiming at.
What I've got going is for feats to have ranks (like skills), and you buy each rank. For feats that reduce penalties, it's 1 rank per -1 reduced. For bonuses, the same. In this way, a lot of "feat chains" end up just being one feat with multiple ranks.
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This type of mechanic doesn't work well without some systematic accounting.
It's almost like getting into HERO only without having any points to track the overall power level of the character.
You'd need some way of mechanically (by that I mean the rules mechanics) compensating for the extra freebie feats.
Nail on the heat, right there.
This type of mechanic doesn't work well without some systematic accounting.Nail on the head, right there.
Yes indeed. Pretty much either everything has to be bought for XP (and you track the total spent), or else just about nothing is. Allowing feats doesn't work well for exactly the reasons Plog cited.
Fair call :) Link or Page number?
The most recent mention I'm aware of showed up in a thread on XP-cost removal
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It was funny. After you first posted, it wouldn't let me start a reply. It was some kind of board hiccup.
The problem with it (if it were allowed) is that a character could be 1st level with 50 feats (HD, BAB etc, etc, etc). Now, without regard to the XP cost, would it be appropriate for this character to travel with other 1st level characters? How about 5th level characters? 20th level characters?
More importantly, is this character fairly challenged by CR 1 creatures, CR 5 creatures, or some other CR? Once level /= CR, you're opening up a whole can of balance issues.
XP is essentially a 'limitless resource' - you can always get more. But feats are somewhat special because they're limited. I'd hate to see a group decide not to advance by levels but go find monsters to slaughter for the whole purpose of buying feats.
And I know groups that would do it, too. They'd play 5 different 5th level adventures to be a little more 'uber' at the end as still 5th level characters. I'd hate to be the DM that has to figure out what it all means.
I have the "Buy the Points" pdf that was mentioned. It reduces all xp to a commodity. You buy pretty much everything about your character with them as is done in many other systems. Overall, considering the large numbers involved I found it too much of a hassle to deal with myself. It did however give our group the idea the use xp to buy feats.
We based out costs on tiers more than how many feats you bought. Many of the feats follow an unspoken feat tree. Basically the costs we used was 250 xp per tier. As an example
Point Blank Shot (250 xp)
* Far Shot(500 xp)
*Precise Shot(500 xp)
**Improved Precise Shot
* Rapid Shot (250 xp)
** Manyshot (500 xp)
*Shot On The Run (250 xp)
-Weylin Stormcrowe
Fair call :) Link or Page number?The most recent mention I'm aware of showed up in a thread on XP-cost removal
Appreciate that.
In terms of having an XP cost just to use a class ability is counter productive. I can see why Jason has the stance that he has, but I believe that this stance is based solely on the assumption that characters who create magic items lose out for the benefit of others.
Still, it will be up to Jason/community to decide if XP is a commodity or not. On one side, I can see his point in the link you provided, on the other I can see buying feats (in moderation) makes a lot of other feats instantly attractive.
It was funny. After you first posted, it wouldn't let me start a reply. It was some kind of board hiccup.
The problem with it (if it were allowed) is that a character could be 1st level with 50 feats (HD, BAB etc, etc, etc). Now, without regard to the XP cost, would it be appropriate for this character to travel with other 1st level characters? How about 5th level characters? 20th level characters?
More importantly, is this character fairly challenged by CR 1 creatures, CR 5 creatures, or some other CR? Once level /= CR, you're opening up a whole can of balance issues.
XP is essentially a 'limitless resource' - you can always get more. But feats are somewhat special because they're limited. I'd hate to see a group decide not to advance by levels but go find monsters to slaughter for the whole purpose of buying feats.
And I know groups that would do it, too. They'd play 5 different 5th level adventures to be a little more 'uber' at the end as still 5th level characters. I'd hate to be the DM that has to figure out what it all means.
Which is exactly why I stated to limit feat purchases to 'X' per level to stop PCs exploiting XP as a limitless resource.
Make X=1 (may only buy 1 feat per level) or 0.5 (may only buy 1 feat per two levels) and I believe that it minimises the issue. Yes, the PCs are a little more powerful, but that side effect can go a little further to keeping the PCs moving past the 15 minute working day.
Really, I do not know what the solution is; there are a lot of feats out there and some quite hefty feat chains to aim for. This is just one solution to alleviating feat selection crisis at level. It jsut may not be the right solution.
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A system where XP is used to purchase feats can't help but be a little clunky. There are a whole lot of questions that need to be answered, and that's a heck of a lot of work.
1) How much should a 'basic' feat cost?
2) How many feats can be purchased?
3) Should 'better' feats cost more than 'basic' feats?
4) How do we determine what are basic and what are better?
And a host of others that aren't very good for backward compatability. What works better is either giving more feats, allowing a 'limited resource' to be traded for feats, and increasing the general effect of feats.
For example, Pathfinder is giving 10 feats for level progression instead of 6 (more feats). A limited resource that can be traded for feats might be skill points (skill tricks). I believe that skill tricks may be proprietary, but if not, 'minor feats' especially those that are related to a skill use can be purchased as a skill trick instead. For example, brachiation (the one that lets you swing through tree branches) might make a better skill trick than a feat (I've never known anyone who took that feat). Increasing the effect of feats would be like making Two-Weapon Fighting automatically become Improved and Greater after attaining the appropriate BAB.
This is one of those ideas where it is good theoretically, but it doesn't work well with existing systems. In a system that uses 'building points' where every feature costs you a number of points, it works out pretty well. But you have to keep track of how many building points you've spent, so you know if you're approximately equal (or should be) in power level to another creature. Since XP is already 'buying' level progression which includes BAB, saves, skills, feats (sometimes) etc, allowing it to be used to buy something else 'on the side' gets 'fiddly'. The same is true, though, of magic item creation rules, but I'm firmly in favor of getting rid of the XP cost there, as well.
A system where XP is used to purchase feats can't help but be a little clunky. There are a whole lot of questions that need to be answered, and that's a heck of a lot of work.
1) How much should a 'basic' feat cost?
2) How many feats can be purchased?
3) Should 'better' feats cost more than 'basic' feats?
4) How do we determine what are basic and what are better?And a host of others that aren't very good for backward compatibility. What works better is either giving more feats, allowing a 'limited resource' to be traded for feats, and increasing the general effect of feats.
For example, Pathfinder is giving 10 feats for level progression instead of 6 (more feats). A limited resource that can be traded for feats might be skill points (skill tricks). I believe that skill tricks may be proprietary, but if not, 'minor feats' especially those that are related to a skill use can be purchased as a skill trick instead. For example, brachiation (the one that lets you swing through tree branches) might make a better skill trick than a feat (I've never known anyone who took that feat). Increasing the effect of feats would be like making Two-Weapon Fighting automatically become Improved and Greater after attaining the appropriate BAB.
This is one of those ideas where it is good theoretically, but it doesn't work well with existing systems. In a system that uses 'building points' where every feature costs you a number of points, it works out pretty well. But you have to keep track of how many building points you've spent, so you know if you're approximately equal (or should be) in power level to another creature. Since XP is already 'buying' level progression which includes BAB, saves, skills, feats (sometimes) etc, allowing it to be used to buy something else 'on the side' gets 'fiddly'. The same is true, though, of magic item creation rules, but I'm firmly in favor of getting rid of the XP cost there, as well.
To answer those questions, I posit an arbitrary approach, for example:
1.Feats cost (say) 10% of the xp needed to reach your next level
2.Characters may only buy 1 feat in between levels
3.No
4.Not applicable.
Of course, ability scores and minimum level requirements still apply, so this would still limit feat selection somewhat.
Some feats are better than others. I certainly agree, which makes this entire mechanic only really valuable for picking up feats you would not necessarily choose, but may be mandatory as part of a feat chain or Prestige Class requirement. Similarly, it also makes a lot of meta magic feats attractive without turning spell casters into one-trick ponies.
The reason I picked XP as the costing value is every PC is acutely aware of its value. No extra values need to be kept and especially if Rule 2 is adhered to, and DM will be able to reverse engineer a character sheet without too much trouble.
Though thinking on the arbitrary approach, I could even simplify it all and state that PCs should get a feat per level and be done with it.
Thanks for your time guys.
I have the "Buy the Points" pdf that was mentioned.
Like I said, I'd love to get my hands on it, but I can't get their site to work, even after collaboration with the sales/tech guys at DriveThruRPG. Can a PDF be sold on ebay, or through Amazon.com, with the understanding the former owner would delete it once it was sold (like selling a used book)? I'd so bid on it.
Odd question, can you access www.rpgnow.com? Same guys, I think, but slightly different URL and IP address. That seems most strange, I can't understand why you can't reach their site. You also have my curiosity as to why it won't work for you. I'm guessing you also contacted Cooley Publishing?
As to the subject of buying feats with EXP, bad idea. I'm sorry but unless your going to switch the whole D&D system over to a point base one like can be found BESM d20 then your going to have problems. The biggest of them is tracking relative power. A Point based system does this by using a characters total points (converted from EXP awards) to indicate a character's power.
If only Feats can be bought with EXP with no tracking mechanism to boost a character's CR or ECL then it's going to be abused. In 3.5 right now I can convert you EXP for Feats into EXP for Skill (Open Minded feat). On the DM side he can now legally pack on as many feats as he wants to a monster at the players CR and pass it off as the NPC having gained and spent that much EXP. Outsiders like Fiends are all to plausible.
Don't get be wrong Point Buy systems have their benefits, it's just not a good idea to go half-way.
Odd question, can you access www.rpgnow.com? Same guys, I think, but slightly different URL and IP address. That seems most strange, I can't understand why you can't reach their site. You also have my curiosity as to why it won't work for you. I'm guessing you also contacted Cooley Publishing?
Yes; I actually tried rpgnow as well. I can get to either site and log on, but when I hit "submit order," I always get a "page not available" page. I've tried using different computers and different web browsers. Something to do with firewall compatibilities or something, maybe, and I'm not about to uninstall my firewall just to try that.
Couldn't find any contact info for Cooley directly. Anyone with the PDF: if there's contact info for them there, can you send it my way?
Regarding point buy: I agree completely; it more or less has to be all or nothing with that. Our last point-buy game system was our favorite; we stopped using it for the sole reason that I bought a Dungeon subscription and didn't want to convert things between systems. If I could play a point-buy or skill-based system that was fully 3.5- and Pathfinder-adventure-compatible, it'd be like having the best of all possible worlds, game-wise.
http://www.stcooleypublishing.com/index.php?option=com_contact&Itemid=3
That should get you to the contact submission form.
That should get you to the contact submission form.
It did indeed -- many thanks. I just emailed them, in fact.
I appreciate both the information and the quick reply.