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While I know the Alpha 2 release has yet to be made available, I have some concerns about the concept of Rage points. I understand the idea of trying to restore a mechanic of feats (such as Intimidating Rage) that are non-OGL back into the game. I also agree that the "X times per day" mechanic is very limiting in offering Rage options. But doesn't removing "X times per day" go against the idea of "add, not subtract" that Paizo is trying to establish? Just a question.
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While I know the Alpha 2 release has yet to be made available, I have some concerns about the concept of Rage points. I understand the idea of trying to restore a mechanic of feats (such as Intimidating Rage) that are non-OGL back into the game. I also agree that the "X times per day" mechanic is very limiting in offering Rage options. But doesn't removing "X times per day" go against the idea of "add, not subtract" that Paizo is trying to establish? Just a question.
If it works anything like Psionic Points in 3E, I'm going to be *very* happy, because quite frankly I've personally become quite bored of X times per day -mechanics in D&D (including spell slots)! :)
Psions have always felt easier to play because keeping track of those PSPs is really not any harder than keeping track of HPs. Plus you don't have to spend half an hour [each time the party rests] to ponder about which spells to memorize/pray for the day...
Please wait till the Whole Alpha 2 comes out before you become concerned
I love the ideal of point pools.The x/day is a very bad mechanic and I await its overdue death
I love the ideal of point pools.The x/day is a very bad mechanic and I await its overdue deathI totally agree. IN fact I would go as far as to say that it would be nice to do the same with Arcane/Devine Magic.
Ditto, I've been using the spell point variant from Unearthed Arcana for awhile now.
I have to agree on this one. Any mechanic that can be used an arbitrary number of times per day (starting at "1" and going up to 5 or more) seems like a power limit, rather than an explanation of the characters' abilities within the game world.
Do you think the Korvosan soldiers walk up to the Shoanti barbarians and ask "Raged yet today? Yes? Excellent, we'll be attacking you now." This seems especially stupid considering that barbarians are meant to become fatigued after using rage, and it takes 8 hours of rest to remove fatigue (without magical intervention). I've required PCs to act like they're tired, but I've really never forced the fatigued condition on them, because it's annoying to have to adjust your stats upwards (especially when you're using [Str x 1.5] damage weapons, then adjust them downwards afterwards).
So if a barbarian is fatigued (because they've already raged once today) and they rage again, does that make them exhausted? If they do it again, does that make them unconscious?
I guess what I'm trying to say is that using your "rage points" for the day (still, waiting for the rules to accompany a 1-paragraph stat block) seems a little more realistic (as in "doesn't break your character's fourth wall") than saying "I can only rage once more today, guys, let's not start raiding the orc camp until tomorrow."
And in case you're wondering, yes, I feel the same way about spell slots, but I'm not yet sure how we can easily fix that problem without redoing the whole system, and that's not the point of PFRPG, it is meant to be backwards-compatible. My vote (so far, sight-unseen) is for rage points rather than x/day usage.
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I have to agree on this one. Any mechanic that can be used an arbitrary number of times per day (starting at "1" and going up to 5 or more) seems like a power limit, rather than an explanation of the characters' abilities within the game world.
First off, I agree that the game should have less limit on thier class powers.
Following that logic (power limit),shouldn't Turn Undead follow a similar mechanic? One of the things I've liked so far has been attempt at unified mechanics of the Pathfinder RPG. For example, all the feats the begin with the word Improved (Improved Bull Rush, etc.) provide exactly the same kind of mechanic; the ability to use a Combat Maneuver without normal penalty and with a +2. One of the frustrating things about 3.5 was a lack of true form. For example, Extra Turning provided a cleric with an additional four times per day; Extra Music only provided ONE extra use of Bardic Music. A smarter mechanic would have had a common number to make things easier to arbitrate as a DM.
And I am all about making the rules smarter and simpler so as to make the DMs job easier.
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Ahem.
@Blue_Eyed_Paladin: Actually a barbarian rage's fatigue is on only for the rest of the encounter. Thus rarely applies at all.
@Arnim Thayer: Bardic Music provides four extra musics per day.
As for the rage points/powers, this gives the barbarian the long wanted variety. Maybe now the barbarian is scrapped from its multiple basic abilities (fast movement, for one) and given a rage power instead.
I will reiterate:
--Rage points are directly borrowed (copied, stolen, pick your verb) from WoW. I'm more okay with this than 4e because, well, I like Pathfinder and trust Paizo more than WotC, and Paizo doesn't seem to be ripping off more aspects of WoW than my fragile mental faculties can handle.
--I don't like the idea of having to keep track of a separate pool. It seems like unnecessary work. Personally, I'd like to see more bonuses added to characters while raging.
Director of Game Design
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--Rage points are directly borrowed (copied, stolen, pick your verb) from WoW. I'm more okay with this than 4e because, well, I like Pathfinder and trust Paizo more than WotC, and Paizo doesn't seem to be ripping off more aspects of WoW than my fragile mental faculties can handle.
--I don't like the idea of having to keep track of a separate pool. It seems like unnecessary work. Personally, I'd like to see more bonuses added to characters while raging.
I would not worry about this too much. I am one of the few people at my work who does not play WoW, primarily because I have an addictive personality that leads me to do crazy things like redesign and tweak an entire rules syste. Anway...
To be honest, any similarity between this and WoW is merely a coincidence. This system just made sense to me compared to the 3.5 barbarian. I can't wait to show it off.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
--Rage points are directly borrowed (copied, stolen, pick your verb) from WoW. I'm more okay with this than 4e because, well, I like Pathfinder and trust Paizo more than WotC, and Paizo doesn't seem to be ripping off more aspects of WoW than my fragile mental faculties can handle.
--I don't like the idea of having to keep track of a separate pool. It seems like unnecessary work. Personally, I'd like to see more bonuses added to characters while raging.
I would not worry about this too much. I am one of the few people at my work who does not play WoW, primarily because I have an addictive personality that leads me to do crazy things like redesign and tweak an entire rules syste. Anway...
To be honest, any similarity between this and WoW is merely a coincidence. This system just made sense to me compared to the 3.5 barbarian. I can't wait to show it off.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Well, I hope that it turns out well.
I will reiterate:
--Rage points are directly borrowed (copied, stolen, pick your verb) from WoW. I'm more okay with this than 4e because, well, I like Pathfinder and trust Paizo more than WotC, and Paizo doesn't seem to be ripping off more aspects of WoW than my fragile mental faculties can handle.
*Faceplam* you gotta be kidding.
*Faceplam* you gotta be kidding.I will reiterate:
--Rage points are directly borrowed (copied, stolen, pick your verb) from WoW. I'm more okay with this than 4e because, well, I like Pathfinder and trust Paizo more than WotC, and Paizo doesn't seem to be ripping off more aspects of WoW than my fragile mental faculties can handle.
I'm not going to be so hypocritical as to criticize WotC for doing the same while praising Paizo (though God knows I'm tempted).
I'm interested to see what happens with the Barbarian, because I think it was built in 3.5 about as well as the rogue and I love what was done to the rogue.
Please wait till the Whole Alpha 2 comes out before you become concerned
We just thought we'd get a head start.
Personally, I'll have to see the whole chicken first, but right now I do think that this might be a bit too complicated. On the other hand, it might be a lot better than the old. We'll see.
I personally like the point system. It offers increased versatility for the player, which I think everyone can agree is nice. My only reservation is that, since Paizo still wants it to work with 3.5 rules, there are some PrCs that have "Rage X/day" as a prereq, so maybe, when AR2 comes out, someone could figure out the best conversion?
how I would do the rage x/day requirements is.See how many points you get a level.Then see at what level you would get 2/day rage.Add up the points for that level and there ya go. Also I would say extra rage feat gives you a levels worth of points.Without seeing the system I cant be sure but it seems a very very easy conversion.
Personally, the concept reminds me of a less complicated version of the Berserker in Iron Heroes, which I really liked. So I'm looking forward to seeing how this one ends up.
You know it doesn't seem like this will happen, and perhaps the Feats provided in the Rise of the Runelords player's guide will be enough, but I'd love to see the Barbarian (and the rest of the classes really) have some special abilities that are Golarion/Varisia specific. Something more than just Totem Spirit for the Shoanti. So that you could play a Hawk Clan Barbarian, Varisian Sorcerer, or a Sczarni Rogue, and have class features that were custom made for you.
Maybe just more feats like those given in the Pathfinder books will be enough. But since this game comes with a world setting, might as well make setting based changes if you can.
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I love the ideal of point pools.The x/day is a very bad mechanic and I await its overdue deathI totally agree. IN fact I would go as far as to say that it would be nice to do the same with Arcane/Devine Magic.
You too? If Jason replaces the current magic system with Spell Points for all the spellcasting classes (Paladins, Rangers, and Bards included) I'm going to be so happy! As I've noted on a number of threads, Psions *already* use a PSP 'pool' (and IMO it's far, far easier to keep track of a point pool than slots -- compare this to keeping track of your HPs!), so this revision would actually make the system more *consistent* and easier to play (and run).
If Jason replaces the current magic system with Spell Points for all the spellcasting classes
He'll be burned at the stick for the needless slaughter of a Sacred Cow. Vancian magic is one of the things D&D should never lose. It's one of the things that makes D&D unique.
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He'll be burned at the stick for the needless slaughter of a Sacred Cow. Vancian magic is one of the things D&D should never lose. It's one of the things that makes D&D unique.
If Jason replaces the current magic system with Spell Points for all the spellcasting classes
Well, I'm currently playing a Paladin/Cleric/Divine Templar and during every session I'm having a headache from trying to keep track of spells from *three* different spell lists (all of which I cast at three different caster levels, to boot). Lately I've began skipping memorizing any combat spells just to save the trouble of trying to track their durations (which has seriously affected the group's combat efficiency). Or if I use "buffs", I sometimes consciously "cheat" by not keeping track of durations at all (especially when I'm DMing). It may be a Sacred Cow, but to me Vancian spellcasting does not feel like fun, anymore. I, for one, would welcome a more streamlined system.
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Ditto, I've been using the spell point variant from Unearthed Arcana for awhile now.I love the ideal of point pools.The x/day is a very bad mechanic and I await its overdue deathI totally agree. IN fact I would go as far as to say that it would be nice to do the same with Arcane/Devine Magic.
I actually took this a step further today by converting the more up-to-date Psionics information for the core class casters. See: Mana Points. (Yeah, I know. Mana Points is lame for a name, but it was the easiest name to retrieve from my brain.)
Man look at the disbelief and cry's of "oh hell no" he got for daring to fix the pain in the neck 3.0 skill system.And you want him to kill something thats been in every edition?Besides house ruling spell points is very easy 1 slot=1point per level.You got 4/3/3/2 using 0th as .5 then you have 17 points done finished.
Not bad Saurstalk.I go a simpler route spells coast 1 point per level.Meta magics cost a number of points equal to what they would have raised the level by.Its a simple system that I have used since 2e. And a sorcerer is damned ugly that have a good sized spell pool. And the fact I let em burn hp when the spell pool is low.
5th level wizard int 16 =18 spell points
5th level sorcerer cha 16=23 spell point and he can burn Hp for extra spells
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Not bad Saurstalk.I go a simpler route spells coast 1 point per level.Meta magics cost a number of points equal to what they would have raised the level by.Its a simple system that I have used since 2e. And a sorcerer is damned ugly that have a good sized spell pool. And the fact I let em burn hp when the spell pool is low.
5th level wizard int 16 =18 spell points
5th level sorcerer cha 16=23 spell point and he can burn Hp for extra spells
I went this route because it's how Expanded Psionics Handbook treats levels of power. That said, I'm also a big reader of Dresden and I like how higher power spells burn him out to a point where even what would be perceived as normal low-level spells wear him out. That's what I like about the varying points system. It should be more taxing to transport yourself from one side of the world to the other than it would be to set up a field around you.
Thats a good way to look at it.I just went with a fast conversion of slots.But my system is pretty much unchanged since the early 90's so take it for what it is :D
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@Arnim Thayer: Bardic Music provides four extra musics per day.
I stand corrected. Must have looked at the wrong line in Complete Adventurer. On the other hand, both Extra Rage and Extra Smiting only give an addition two times per day, and Extra Stunning provides an additional three times per day. So the inconsistancy is there; I just quoted the wrong example.
He'll be burned at the stick for the needless slaughter of a Sacred Cow. Vancian magic is one of the things D&D should never lose. It's one of the things that makes D&D unique.
If Jason replaces the current magic system with Spell Points for all the spellcasting classes
And it's being thrown away with 4e.
What I mean is: If we're going to go for a points-per-day variant instead of class-feature-per-day as it has been said in another topic, we might as well do it for everything, assuming this works well.
If it works well, it's not unnecessary slaughter of a Sacred Cow, it's barbecue.
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He'll be burned at the stick for the needless slaughter of a Sacred Cow. Vancian magic is one of the things D&D should never lose. It's one of the things that makes D&D unique.
If Jason replaces the current magic system with Spell Points for all the spellcasting classesAnd it's being thrown away with 4e.
What I mean is: If we're going to go for a points-per-day variant instead of class-feature-per-day as it has been said in another topic, we might as well do it for everything, assuming this works well.
If it works well, it's not unnecessary slaughter of a Sacred Cow, it's barbecue.
WoTC's approach to 4E "powers" seems very rigid and unelegant (e.g. you can't imitate or take any 'exception-based' monster abilities, and Disarm/Trip may be only tried once/encounter by fighters with those "powers"). If Jason would indeed "barbecue" this Sacred Cow, I think he is going to cater to vegetarians, too! ;)
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If it works well, it's not unnecessary slaughter of a Sacred Cow, it's barbecue.
Well not to put a damper on the cookout you all have planned, but if spell points are introduced, it is going to play havoc with backward compatibility. Despite the similarities, the systems play differently, in some cases radically differently.
If it works well, it's not unnecessary slaughter of a Sacred Cow, it's barbecue.Well not to put a damper on the cookout you all have planned, but if spell points are introduced, it is going to play havoc with backward compatibility. Despite the similarities, the systems play differently, in some cases radically differently.
I can't think of much that would get screwed around. For Metamagic cost just up the points.
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If it works well, it's not unnecessary slaughter of a Sacred Cow, it's barbecue.Well not to put a damper on the cookout you all have planned, but if spell points are introduced, it is going to play havoc with backward compatibility. Despite the similarities, the systems play differently, in some cases radically differently.
Actually, this variant/optional system already exists in the SRD, so it's nothing radically new or revolutionary. Some people I know already use it. Would it really be that hard to calculate spell points for every spellcasting PC and NPC? In practise, I think, the major difference would be if you deliberately spent all your daily points on casting, say, five empowered and maximized Meteor Swarms, instead of "dividing" your daily points between spells of different levels. But I think that would also allow for more freedom with your spells ("Yeah, I can cast four more Dispel Magics, if need be, and two Knocks. Or the same number of Fireballs.") and keeping track of spell points would be just as hard as keeping track of your HPs.
Spellpoints are broken in different ways than Vancian. The fact is, prepared casters become vastly more powerful while the sorcerer eats dirt. Damage spells take an even bigger hit with spellpoints, literally becoming less useful than they are currently. Spellpoints is too large of a change for Pathfinder--leave spell slots and let people use spellpoints as a variant.
Personally, I have to say, I'm a much bigger fan of X/Day than I am points. Mostly, because I think combat should have a different, less complicated 'feel' than magic and x/day fits that feel while points do not. That being said, I have enough faith in Paizo to wait until Alpha 2 comes out before I would want to weigh in completely.
And it's being thrown away with 4e.He'll be burned at the stick for the needless slaughter of a Sacred Cow. Vancian magic is one of the things D&D should never lose. It's one of the things that makes D&D unique.
If Jason replaces the current magic system with Spell Points for all the spellcasting classes
D&D is being thrown away with 4e. And a lot of people won't play 4e because of that.
If they turned Pathfinder into another 4e and fire the old fans, too, they'd go belly up.
And it's being thrown away with 4e.He'll be burned at the stick for the needless slaughter of a Sacred Cow. Vancian magic is one of the things D&D should never lose. It's one of the things that makes D&D unique.
If Jason replaces the current magic system with Spell Points for all the spellcasting classesD&D is being thrown away with 4e. And a lot of people won't play 4e because of that.
If they turned Pathfinder into another 4e and fire the old fans, too, they'd go belly up.
mooooooooooooo.
mooooooooooooo.
What are you doing? Go and hide, you're not safe here!
What are you doing? Go and hide, you're not safe here!
One of the additional spells in the Pathfinder RPG will be Resurrect Sacred Cow.
The casting time looks to be about a year, and I shudder to think what the material components cost, but I think if a bunch of us get together, we can pay the caster cost.
And it's being thrown away with 4e.He'll be burned at the stick for the needless slaughter of a Sacred Cow. Vancian magic is one of the things D&D should never lose. It's one of the things that makes D&D unique.
If Jason replaces the current magic system with Spell Points for all the spellcasting classesD&D is being thrown away with 4e. And a lot of people won't play 4e because of that.
If they turned Pathfinder into another 4e and fire the old fans, too, they'd go belly up.
See allot of Old fans making the switch to 4E. And who says people can;t play both?
And thank god and the all mighty for the loss of Vancian casting, if thats a defining point of D&D than D&D needs to change.
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I reserve any judgement until I see the Alpha 2 on the Barbarian. I think Rage points has some potential. Certainly I don't think it is more complicated than keeping track of numerous spell effects and the like. The Barbarian is really a damage dealing machine built out of hit points. I like that paradigm a lot. So I don't know how much I would tweak with it, but I didn't think there was much I would change about fighters, wizards, clerics, and rogues, but the Alpha 1 has changed my mind. I love the tweaks they are making to the system. Can't wait to see what they do with the Barbarian, Sorcerer, and especially the Bard.
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And it's being thrown away with 4e.He'll be burned at the stick for the needless slaughter of a Sacred Cow. Vancian magic is one of the things D&D should never lose. It's one of the things that makes D&D unique.
If Jason replaces the current magic system with Spell Points for all the spellcasting classesD&D is being thrown away with 4e. And a lot of people won't play 4e because of that.
If they turned Pathfinder into another 4e and fire the old fans, too, they'd go belly up.
See allot of Old fans making the switch to 4E. And who says people can;t play both?
And thank god and the all mighty for the loss of Vancian casting, if thats a defining point of D&D than D&D needs to change.
And I would argue that folks who flippantly disregard the Vancian system simply have short attention spans and limited ability to think about resource management. So thank God Almighty that since Pathfinder is keeping the Vancian system all those minimalist non-tactical thinkers will be lost. Because if those short sighted Generation Y ADD folks are a defining point of where D&D is going, then D&D needs to come back to its roots.
I like the Vancian system, and I want Pathfinder to keep it, and I think that 4th edition might serve those who don't like vancian magic, and that the spell point variant from UA (3.5) might be a good compromise, but honestly, why is all of this debate getting as personal as it is? There have been people that haven't liked Vancian magic for decades, and there are tons of people that like how D&D magic works.
And it's being thrown away with 4e.He'll be burned at the stick for the needless slaughter of a Sacred Cow. Vancian magic is one of the things D&D should never lose. It's one of the things that makes D&D unique.
If Jason replaces the current magic system with Spell Points for all the spellcasting classesD&D is being thrown away with 4e. And a lot of people won't play 4e because of that.
If they turned Pathfinder into another 4e and fire the old fans, too, they'd go belly up.
See allot of Old fans making the switch to 4E. And who says people can;t play both?
And thank god and the all mighty for the loss of Vancian casting, if thats a defining point of D&D than D&D needs to change.
And I would argue that folks who flippantly disregard the Vancian system simply have short attention spans and limited ability to think about resource management. So thank God Almighty that since Pathfinder is keeping the Vancian system all those minimalist non-tactical thinkers will be lost. Because if those short sighted Generation Y ADD folks are a defining point of where D&D is going, then D&D needs to come back to its roots.
Okay um how you got all that from what I said I have no idea, but have a nice day!
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What I mean is: If we're going to go for a points-per-day variant instead of class-feature-per-day as it has been said in another topic, we might as well do it for everything, assuming this works well.
Sure, while we're at it, let's just toss all the spells from the Complete books, Spell Compedium, and OGL soruces in the trash since none of those will be compatible.
What I mean is: If we're going to go for a points-per-day variant instead of class-feature-per-day as it has been said in another topic, we might as well do it for everything, assuming this works well.Sure, while we're at it, let's just toss all the spells from the Complete books, Spell Compedium, and OGL soruces in the trash since none of those will be compatible.
Yet, the Spell Point Variant from Unearthed Arcana was completely compatible. Hmmm