Maximize Spell and Empower Spell make me sad. They are not worth the cost of a feat. Their level of spell adjustment needs to be reduced so that they are viable. Personally, I would reduce both by +1 level adjustment and allow them to stack (so that a maximized, empowered, fireball would do 90 damage at level 10).
Allow me to show you the math so that all you doubters will believe—and, before I begin, I’m assuming average damage (2.5 on a d4, 3.5 on a d6, etc.) and rounding down with a high enough caster level so that the damage is capped. The number in parenthesis is the spell’s effective level.
Magic missile (1): 5d4+5, an average of 17 damage.
Empowered magic missile (3): 12.5x1.5 + 5, an average of 23 damage.
Maximized magic missile (4): 25 damage.
Empowered, maximized magic missile (6): 20 + 6 + 5, an average of 31 damage.
Burning hands (1): 5d4, average of 12 damage. Reflex for half.
Empowered burning hands (3): 12.5x1.5, an average of 18 damage. Reflex for half.
Maximized burning hands (4): 20 damage. Reflex for half.
Empowered, maximized burning hands (6): 20 + 6, an average of 26 damage. Reflex for half.
Shocking grasp (1): 5d6, an average of 17 damage. Touch range.
Empowered shocking grasp (3): 17.5x1.5, an average of 26 damage. Touch range.
Maximized shocking grasp (4): 30 damage. Touch range.
Maximized, empowered shocking grasp (6): 30 + 8, an average of 38 damage. Touch range.
Fireball/lightning bolt (3): 10d6, an average of 35 damage. Reflex for half.
Empowered fireball/lightning bolt (5): 35x1.5, an average of 52 damage. Reflex for half.
Maximized fireball/lightning bolt (6): 60 damage. Reflex for half.
Empowered, maximized fireball (8): 60 + 17, an average of 77 damage. Reflex for half.
Now, let’s look at what I could be doing with spells of a similar level—with a minimum caster level required to cast them, even.
Versus the empowered level 1 spells:
Lightning bolt or fireball: an average of 17 damage to everything in a large area. Reflex for half.
Versus the maximized level 1 spells:
Lightning bolt or fireball: an average of 24 damage to everything in a large area. Reflex for half.
Versus the empowered, maximized level 1 spells:
Cone of cold: an average of 38 damage to everything in a large area. Reflex for half.
Chain lightning: an average of 38 damage to one creature and an average of 19 damage to up to 11 other creatures.
(Obviously, the higher-level spells win out in this one.)
Versus the empowered level 3 spells:
Cone of cold: an average of 31 damage to everything in a large area. Reflex for half.
Versus the maximized level 3 spells:
Cone of cold: an average of 38 damage to everything in a large area. Reflex for half.
Chain lightning: an average of 38 damage to one creature and an average of 19 damage to up to 11 other creatures.
(Now, it appears that the higher-level spells lose in these scenarios. However, one must remember that the save DC for the higher-level spells is higher than that of the metamagic-enhanced fireball or lightning bolt; thus, the maximized spells are more likely to do around 30 damage. Furthermore, the higher-level spells are not being cast at their maximum power…if that were the case, the average damage would be 52—right on par with the enhanced level-three spells.)
What really takes the cake, I think, is the empowered, maximized level 3 spells. On average, they do more damage—77 versus the 15d6 (52 average damage) of the 7th-level (cast as a 15th-level caster) delayed blast fireball spell. Additionally, this spell has a +4 bonus on its save DC, making it more likely that the lower-level spells will do about 38 damage, putting them far behind.
Frankly, if we’re going to spend feats on something, they had darn well better be worth what we’re getting for them. As I’ve shown, there isn’t enough incentive for Empower/Maximize Spell to be taken.
So can we get a buff for these, pretty please?
Is this a problem with the metamagic feats being underpowered, or evocation spell damage being underpowered?
Metamagic feats being underpowered.
But all your math seems to indicate that in most cases the metamagic feats are worth it. Especially Empower Spell.
Besides, there's more benefits to the feat than just damage. A sorcerer with those feats doesn't have to use nearly as many of her precious spells known on damage spells. Even a wizard who doesn't have to scribe as many damage spells into his spellbook comes out slightly ahead.
And the metamagic feats cover for levels that don't have particularly good spells. Of the level 3 spells, none automatically hits and does force damage like an empowered magic missle does. At spell level 5, cone of cold isn't always a great choice since its range is so much shorter than fireball or lightning bolt, and cones are more difficult to use.
I don't see that these feats need a boost.
You've never been hit by an empowered envervation and had the DM roll a 4.
But all your math seems to indicate that in most cases the metamagic feats are worth it. Especially Empower Spell.
"Marginally better" does not mean "worth a feat slot." Unlike feats like Quicken Spell, a character in D&D is going to "outgrow" Maximize/Empower--again, all the math that I did for the higher-level spells was at minimum caster level. At that level, yes, the feats seem worth it. However, at a higher level, just casting the higher-level spell is a better choice.
Besides, there's more benefits to the feat than just damage. A sorcerer with those feats doesn't have to use nearly as many of her precious spells known on damage spells.
Unfortunately, he does if he wishes to keep up at higher levels. 20d6 damage vs. 10d6x1.5?
Even a wizard who doesn't have to scribe as many damage spells into his spellbook comes out slightly ahead.
A few hundred gp != feat.
And the metamagic feats cover for levels that don't have particularly good spells. Of the level 3 spells, none automatically hits and does force damage like an empowered magic missle does. At spell level 5, cone of cold isn't always a great choice since its range is so much shorter than fireball or lightning bolt, and cones are more difficult to use.
It's true that certain spells have their advantages, and magic missile's abilities make it a worthwhile spell for most any character to have prepared. However, in the grand scheme of things, the feats just aren't worth it because they don't keep up in terms of usefulness like Quicken Spell does.
"Marginally better" does not mean "worth a feat slot." Unlike feats like Quicken Spell, a character in D&D is going to "outgrow" Maximize/Empower--again, all the math that I did for the higher-level spells was at minimum caster level. At that level, yes, the feats seem worth it. However, at a higher level, just casting the higher-level spell is a better choice.
I don't think you outgrow Empower Spell. You can just use it on higher and higher level spells. When your normal spells are doing 15d6, sure you don't need to empower fireballs anymore. Instead you empower those 15d6 spells. An empowered 5th level spell like Cone of Cold will take you over 20d6 in effective damage, beating out everything but Meteor Swarm and the like.
But mostly I don't think you're going to get better than "marginally better" with just a feat. Spell Focus is only a +1 to save DCs. Weapon Focus is only +1 to hit. Weapon Specialization is +2 to damage. These are feats people take and use. Empower Spell, with no prerequisites or anything, fits among them.
Wait, is there somewhere that says you CAN'T use both feats at the same time?
If so then I'm in big trouble. I've been blowin' things all to hell with empowered, maximized spells for a donkeys year.
Anyway, there are ways to reduce the cost of the spell slots by taking certain feats, without having to change around rules.
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Wait, is there somewhere that says you CAN'T use both feats at the same time?
If so then I'm in big trouble. I've been blowin' things all to hell with empowered, maximized spells for a donkeys year.
Anyway, there are ways to reduce the cost of the spell slots by taking certain feats, without having to change around rules.
IIRC, by the rules, a maximized and empowered spell deals 100% of it's normal damage and then the "bonus" 50% from the empowerment is rolled as usual. For example, a 10d6 fireball that is maximized and empowered becomes a 60 + 5d6 fireball, NOT a 90 damage fireball.
Wait, is there somewhere that says you CAN'T use both feats at the same time?
If so then I'm in big trouble. I've been blowin' things all to hell with empowered, maximized spells for a donkeys year.
You can Empower and Maximize at the same time, but their effects do not stack *with eachother*, but separately. In other words, a Maximized, Empowered Fireball does Max damage (60), plus 50% of the variable effects (.5 * 10d6 =~ 17.5). So 60 + .5*10d6 for 77.5 average, instead of 1.5 * 60 = 90 damage.
That said, I'm in entire agreement with Benimoto's post - "Marginal" improvement is exactly what wizards will take to get every edge they can. "Quicken Spell" is useless entirely until 7th-9th level. Even then it's of marginal use until you can quicken things like Resist Energy, Fireball, and Dimension Door.
By the way, your math on Empowering Magic Missile is in error - Empower (oddly) affects the *total* of the random effects, including +'s, not just the dice. So empowered magic missiles do (1d4+1)*1.5 per missile, and an empowered Fire Shield does (1d8+caster level)*1.5. An empowered magic missile actually averages higher than a maximized one.
I'm not sure that it does--the feat says that it affects all variable numeric effects.
Empowered cone of cold at level 20: 22d6 damage.
Delayed blast fireball at level 20: 20d6 damage.
Empowered delayed blast fireball: 30d6 damage.
Meteor swarm: 32d6 damage.
Maximized chain lightning: 120 damage.
Meteor swarm: an average of 112 damage.
Not. Worth. A. Feat.
Empowered delayed blast fireball: 30d6 damage.
Meteor swarm: 32d6 damage.
Empowered delayed blast fireball, Fire Resist 10, Save made: 42.5 avg
Meteor swarm, fire resist 10, saves made: 2 avgWorth. A. Feat.
You're going to have to elaborate.
personally, i rarely maximize or enpower a spell when memorizing...
i do however take those feats and craft metamagic wands...
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I only take Metamagic feats when they are a prerequisite for something. I've never liked the mechanic. (I very much prefer the Arcana Unearthed system of overpowering, underpowering or 'ladening' spells.)
Exception; in 3.0, we thought you could use Enlarge Spell on cone spells, like color spray and burning hands. That was fun. 3.5 clarifies that is is not an option, so we haven't taken that one either.
If we were to use Metamagic as an option, there's been serious talk about just making it something that any Wizard can do, a Class Ability (and limited to core Metamagics only).
In 3rd edition you explicitly could enlarge a cone to make it 4 times as big. In 3.5 they didn't clarify it, they changed the rules. Apparently people doing nice things with Cone of Cold is not allowed.
However, I favor reducing the levels of spells rather than altering the metamagics. Every time they make some kind of shenanigans to do something vaguely decent with basic metamagics, it creates more loopholes where people set their whole characters on fire to stack a bunch of metamagics together and get something broken.
-Frank
I've thought seriously on many occasions about making Heighten a Class Ability. The others I think work well as Feats.
The abjurant champion gets Automatic Quicken Spell and Automatic Extend Spell as class features. Granted, it's abjurations-only, but those are supposed to be Epic-level feats.