Clerics can cast any cleric spells on the cleric spell list.
So what this means is that every time a new spell comes out that really is thematic to a certain god, every cleric in your setting can now cast it. The classic example is Slime Wave, a spell that is perfect for Ghaunadaur but makes no sense for a cleric of Sune.
In Pathfinder terms, lets look at Desna (Pathfinder 2). They are supposed to cast dream feast and dream travel. That's great, because Desna is a god of dreams, stars, travelers, and luck. Thematically, it all makes sense.
But should a cleric of Urgathoa, a god of gluttony, disease, and undeath get to use dream spells? By the rules, any cleric can cast these spells even though they are written up next to the god description of Desna and thematically should only be used by her clerics.
In fact, once they enter your game, any cleric can suddenly cast them, and thats just silly. Its fine if all clerics can cast bless because that fits into being a "cleric", but spells that are themed for a god should be for clerics of that god.
Suggestion:
Mark special spells like dream travel "Desna 4", so that only clerics of that god can use them.
Sugestion #2:
Make new "supplement" spells that are supposed to be be for all clerics only castable by clerics that find special holy texts or teachers.
In this way, each time a new supplement comes out you don't suddenly grant clerics a pile of new known spells.
I would prefer spells to go onto Domain Lists and then give Clerics access to all spells that are on Domain Lists that their god has access to. This way you don't end up screwing expansion gods out of all their stuff.
By putting spells onto domain lists and giving domain lists to gods you can add spells and gods separately without screwing anyone. If D&D has taught us anything it is that clean expandability is something to strive for.
-Frank
Suggestion:
Mark special spells like dream travel "Desna 4", so that only clerics of that god can use them.
Sugestion #2:
Make new "supplement" spells that are supposed to be be for all clerics only castable by clerics that find special holy texts or teachers.
In this way, each time a new supplement comes out you don't suddenly grant clerics a pile of new known spells.
This doesn't work for the thousands of DM's that create their own worlds and cosmologies.
Different gods with different portfolios under your suggestion would mean the DM has to go through the entire repotoire spells and readjust them to fit their cosmology every time a new supplement comes out. Tis an immense amount of work.And adding a new "supplement" means adding another rules subset and another section in the core book. The rules don't need 'more rules' to complicate things further they need to clarify current ones and readjust them.
An easier solution is this.
1. Paizo add the line "except those opposed to their deity's alignment or their own." to "Clerics can cast any cleric spells on the cleric spell list."
2. Paizo more clearly defines the Divine spells that are assigned to a particular alignment. This means including the word "good" under healing spells and the such.
This way a cleric can easily identify which spells he cannot cast. I have had trouble with that very problem for ages.
Remember, while a cleric know a lot of spells he is still limited to preparing very few of those per day which keeps him on par with any other caster.
Or just be a DM and say no. I don't mean to be snarky with this post, but it seems to me that the most appropriate response is for the DM to make these decisions themselves.
I had this problem in my games more than once.
I always made them either domain only, a spell swap(take away a spell in trade for this new one), or a feat-buy similar to spell mastery only with Wisdom...you can have +number of new spells that you can CURRENTLY cast (meaning you cannot take a 9th level spell with this feat if you are a 3rd level cleric or druid) equal to your wisdom modifier. Seriously, having constant access to the SC+PHB+whatever campain setting book is simply too large of a list.
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Or just be a DM and say no. I don't mean to be snarky with this post, but it seems to me that the most appropriate response is for the DM to make these decisions themselves.
Agreed. If a cleric of Desna decides to pray for a Slime Wave, that should be the DM's decision as to whether it works, doesn't work, or (my favorite) leads to a very interesting RP opportunity.
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I would prefer spells to go onto Domain Lists and then give Clerics access to all spells that are on Domain Lists that their god has access to. This way you don't end up screwing expansion gods out of all their stuff.
By putting spells onto domain lists and giving domain lists to gods you can add spells and gods separately without screwing anyone. If D&D has taught us anything it is that clean expandability is something to strive for.
-Frank
What you get there is basically the 'Priest Spheres' from 2nd Edition.
That's not dismissing the idea, by the way, but pointing out that there is a long-running precedent for doing exactly this.Currently, in 3.5, domains are the icing on top of a large, general list, so it doesn't matter if they are short lists, with only one option at each level, or that a cleric only has a choice of two.
You would need to ensure that some spells were listed on more than one domain, and/or that there was a pseudo-domain of enough universal spells to cover the essentials common to all churches.
Also, deities' portfolios would need to be expanded to cover more domains, and clerics would need access to more of them, if the domain spells are all they get. Maybe they should still not get all potential domains, still, just to allow differences of approach between sects.
Or just be a DM and say no. I don't mean to be snarky with this post, but it seems to me that the most appropriate response is for the DM to make these decisions themselves.
While I agree the DM should be involved in these matters, as a DM myself I find it interrupts the story when my player has to hand me a list of the 25 spells he is praying for every morning and reasons why he might want an iffy one. Especially when it can be solved in the book by adding one word to certain clerical spells.
I do however love the idea of players bargaining with their deities for iffy spells leading into RP ideas.
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I do however love the idea of players bargaining with their deities for iffy spells leading into RP ideas.
Some of the best RP moments in my campaigns have been when the cleric has had face-to-face encounters with his god.
DMs should be encouraged to decide which approach they want and enact that in game. Making core a system that supports only one approach means that people who want a different approach have to retcon the system, which is bad.
Suggestion:
Mark special spells like dream travel "Desna 4", so that only clerics of that god can use them.Sugestion #2:
Make new "supplement" spells that are supposed to be be for all clerics only castable by clerics that find special holy texts or teachers.In this way, each time a new supplement comes out you don't suddenly grant clerics a pile of new known spells.
This doesn't work for the thousands of DM's that create their own worlds and cosmologies.
Different gods with different portfolios under your suggestion would mean the DM has to go through the entire repotoire spells and readjust them to fit their cosmology every time a new supplement comes out. Tis an immense amount of work.
Or not. You can just add supplements to you game and only assign the spells you plan to use, and as a default not allow clerics add anything to their base list.
And if a PC wants a particular spell that he thinks fits his god, he'll have to find a holy text with the spell.
Snorter, I believe we are talking about a hybrid system where the Domain lists supplement the core Cleric list. This ensures that every cleric can do level appropriate things, as well as giving Clerics access to specific spells that apply to their schtick.
The goal is to have Clerics of Shar casting doomtide, while Clerics of Sune do not. And yet still have both Shar and Sune Clerics have some basic decent things to cast at all levels.
-Frank
I always gave my players multiple options because I like to err on the side of flexibility...hence the three choices on how to do it.
My buddy who also DMs does it slightly differently. He allows spell access to any of the spheres that player's god has, and he creates his own pantheon of gods. He also uses the Spell Compendium, and it's not really that much different. He just adds a few extra domains to each god...figuring out which god should have the Hunger Domain doesn't seem to be much of a chore or an adjustment for him in comparison to creating his own pantheon with backround and setting history.
It's certainly not hard in Pathfinder either... what god do you think should have the hunger domain if you were adding one pr two to each from the Spell compendium? My guess is Urgathoa would be the given to get Hunger seeing is in her description she is "the goddess of gluttony".
With druids this is different... he came up with a "druid circle" list of spells, and each circle had different spells from the new list, but that is something considerably more demanding, seeing is you are creating something that doesn't exist and have to partition each spell to a circle, and it's tricky to try and figure out how many to add. For the Druid I certainly like my way better, but for the cleric his way works just as good if not better than mine.
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Snorter, I believe we are talking about a hybrid system where the Domain lists supplement the core Cleric list. This ensures that every cleric can do level appropriate things, as well as giving Clerics access to specific spells that apply to their schtick.
The goal is to have Clerics of Shar casting doomtide, while Clerics of Sune do not. And yet still have both Shar and Sune Clerics have some basic decent things to cast at all levels.
-Frank
So if I read you right, we're saying similar things, but just differing over the degree?
I.E, your 'Universal' domain is very large (similar to the RAW), and only a few spells are being transferred out to the domains, whereas I was initially assuming you meant a very small universal list, with big, chunky domains, and clerics being granted access to several of those domains, not just two.
Nearly every thread I've looked at for addressing 'problems' of the Clerics spell list includes new rules for subsets of domain spells or rules for finding holy texts with spells...etc. I think the problem with all of these is that is means throwing in yet another subset of rules into the game.
We need to find a balance between overarching rule sets that apply to many classes but are general and having a thousand individual rule sets for every aspect of of every class or power. (If you do the latter you get 2nd ed) One is over simplified, one is overly complicated.
I do not think we need a new rules subset to govern Cleric spells, a minor tweak to existing rules can accomplish this just fine.
That being said, I still don't think Cleric spells are overpowered in the least.
And let's not forget the Clerics measly 2 Skills they get. I play a cleric and most characters have more starting skills at 1st lvl than I do at 16th.
And let's not forget the Clerics measly 2 Skills they get. I play a cleric and most characters have more starting skills at 1st lvl than I do at 16th.
You don't need skills when you can do interesting things out of combat.
What if we just had a simpler system?
Every level, you can make a check:
If you want a spell not on the PHB cleric list, make a Knowledge: religion check with a DC of spell level +15.
Add a +2 for every other spell not normally on your list that you asked for that level (recieved or not).
If its a spell on a different God list (like Shar 4,and you are a Sune worshipper), add +10.
No auto-success on a 20.
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Suggestion:
Mark special spells like dream travel "Desna 4", so that only clerics of that god can use them.
It seems to me that making new thematic spells part of a Domain is easier. Dream Travel becomes "Travel 4" - and, sure, it makes the most sense for Desna to take it, but it also makes sense for Clerics of Cayden Cailean (who *is* the God of Wine, after all) to be able to take it. It will, over time, make Domain lists chunkier, which is unfortunate, but it will also allow more customization of Clerics with the same Domains. Desna cleric takes Dream Travel as her 4th level Domain Spell, and Cayden Cailean cleric takes Dimension Door.
Of course, this method only works if one keeps the old Domain system... Hm. I like the new system, but the old system made more sense for adding new themed spells.
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By putting spells onto domain lists and giving domain lists to gods you can add spells and gods separately without screwing anyone.
I second this; I'd love to see the core Cleric spell list whittled down to a few "universal" basics per level, with extra spells available to an individual Cleric based on their selected domains.
You don't need skills when you can do interesting things out of combat.
I don't understand what you mean by that. Any character can(and should)do interesting things outside of combat.
If you're referring to the ability to use spells to replicate skills or compensate for lack of skills, then you're not really talking about an advantage. You're talking about using up character resources to overcome a deficiency. Definately not an advantage.
And if you use up most of your spells compensating for skills you'll be left with precious few for combat.
What if we just had a simpler system?
Every level, you can make a check:
If you want a spell not on the PHB cleric list, make a Knowledge: religion check with a DC of spell level +15.
Add a +2 for every other spell not normally on your list that you asked for that level (recieved or not).
If its a spell on a different God list (like Shar 4,and you are a Sune worshipper), add +10.
No auto-success on a 20.
I'm not opposeed to a system similar to this where you have to make checks or have the prerequisite holy texts to get other non-PHB or God specific spells.
It just needs to be a really easy and quick rule since it would be a minor game mechanic in the scheme of things.
Actually the more I think of it the more I like the holy text idea. I can picture priests breaking into each others temples to lift spells. Or hiring the theive's guild to do it.
Ok, second try, forum ate the first one.
What I would like to see is a variant on the current system.
First, I agree that clerics have way to much access to spells.
Second, I have always felt that Clerics should be spontaneous casters rather than prepared casters.
Third, I like the domain abilities from the Alpha 1.x.
So, here's my suggestion, FWIW:
Clerics can only cast spells from domains their deity can access, but they do not need to prepare them. They have access to all their deity's domains but must pick 2 domains, their specialties, that they gain the domain powers from. There should also be a 'universal' domain containing things like minor healing, bless/curse, & holy water, which could never be a specialist domain.
That makes, I think, a flexible but not overpowered Cleric themed to their deity.