In my opinion, there seems to be a general consensus that the cleric class is overamped, a problem that has only been exacerbated by the glut of spells and divine feats from follow-on sourcebooks.
My modest proposal to curb one element of the CODzilla syndrome: revisit the Spheres mechanic of 2E. Under this proposal, each domain would be associated with a group of spells. Those spells would be added to the cleric's spell list.
The Spheres mechanic also had the concept of Major and minor access. This could be simulated in PFRPG by having each domain grant one group of spells for minor access, and another, potential more powerful or useful set for major access.
Major/minor access was determined by the deities relationship to the Sphere in 2E, and that could be extended to PFRPG, or, a cleric could be required to take a domain twice to gain major access to its spell set.
Like the 2E Spheres mechanic, there should probably be a "universal" sphere of fundamental spells that all clerics should be able to learn such as consecrate, hallow, etc.
Finally, clerics would be allowed to learn new domains either through feats or through additional class abilities (or both).
The domain powers of PFRPG would remain.
Discuss...
The problem then becomes, where do you put all of the spells in all of those splatbooks that you mention. If you are going to limit the spells that the cleric can use in this method, why not just limit the number of "splatbooks" that you allow the cleric to choose his spells from in the first place?
If the thing you are trying to avoid is a cleric having an unlimited spell list, then you don't really need a rule to limit him to spells in the "core" rulebook.
My modest proposal to curb one element of the CODzilla syndrome: revisit the Spheres mechanic of 2E. Under this proposal, each domain would be associated with a group of spells. Those spells would be added to the cleric's spell list.
...
Discuss...
No, never, you gotta be kidding.
The Spheres of 2nd edition were overly arbitrary, and were a very poor fit for forcing things like the Druid class into the Priest template.
That they inspired Domains is a good thing, but Spheres themselves are unwieldy, and overly convoluted.
I have little good to say about 4th edition, but I at least comprehend that they removed the *schools* because they could be confusing and arbitrary. I disagree with that decision, but adding back *spheres* on top is... utterly needless complexity.
Don't *use* the splatbook spells, much simpler solution.
The problem then becomes, where do you put all of the spells in all of those splatbooks that you mention.
Giving basic guidelines and letting people eyeball it should be enough, no?
Air: Spells that control wind, lightning, mist, and weather.
Animal: Spells that enhance, control, communicate with, or allow morphing into animals.
Artifice: Spells that manipulate, create, and animate objects.
Chaos: ...They have the descriptor no?
Charm: Generally spells that involve will saves and are mind-affecting.
Community: Mass versions of buff spells ?
Darkness: Spells that manipulate shadows and sight.
Death: Spells centered around fear, undeath, and those brief moments between life and death(negative hit-points, save-or-die spells).
Destruction: Spells that break stuff in generally messy ways.
Earth: Spells that control Earth, Stone, and Acid.
Evil: ...They have the descriptor no?
Fire: Really now...
Glory: I can't be bothered looking into it right now and I'm lazy >.>
Good: See Fire...
Healing: ... Spells that make you feel all tingly and good inside.
Knowledge: Spells that let you know stuff. Generally divinations.
Law: See Good...
Liberations: Spells that remove naughty effects from you.
Luck: Spells that mess with or introduce probabilities of various effects.
Madness: Spar...I mean I got nothing.
Magic: Spells from the Arcane list or that appear on both lists. Tough too.
Nobility: Spells that make people your subject. Charm with pomp.
Plant: Spells that manipulate/mimic(Barkskin) plants.
Protection: Spells that prevent others from harming you.
Repose: Don't feel like defining it... yea that's it >.>
Rune: Spells that manipulate or involve texts, or otherwise involve glyphs and Symbols.
Strength: Hulk.
Sun: Shiny fire
Travel: Movement and Teleportation.
Trickery: Wouldn't YOUUU like to know.
War: Spells which enhance, duplicate, or manipulate weapons... and flame strike.
Water: Spells that create and manipulate ice and water and make such environments more bearable (water breathing, resist energy(cold) ).
Weather: Mists, Winds, Lightning.
What is everyones problem with Clerics?
At high levels they are the messenger of there Gods.
We have play about 6 campigns 1-20 and the cleric has always been on par with the other classes never dominated the party
How many of you have played the old Classes 1-20 we have seen them all go and some defently need the power boost
I really like all the new classes and where they are going I cant wait to see the other 7 classes
To tell you the truth, I'm not 100% opposed to saying that a cleric knows a number of rituals (i.e. the spells he prepares) equal to the number of core spells on the spell list + his wisdom modifier. Every level he can swap out spells from his spell list. This gives the cleric some flexibility in learning new spells (if he runs into a scroll or something) in the adventure (he's got room to "grow" with his wisdom bonus).
I'm not saying I see a burning need for this, but it wouldn't bug me too much either.
Edit: Looks like just going by the SRD, the average number of spells a cleric has on this spell list is 23. I'm wondering, given that there are a few spells restricted by alignment for every level if 20 + Wis bonus for a given level wouldn't work.
But this is just rambling on my part.
I'm testing out simply limiting the number of spells the cleric "knows". Don't have to divide the spells into arbitrary spheres, and it keeps the cleric from searching through tons of supplements all the time for "just the right spell" during the game.
A cleric casts divine spells, which are drawn from the cleric spell list. When a cleric gains access to a new level of spells, he selects from that list 6 + Wis modifier as spells he may draw from when preparing spells. To this total, he adds his two domain spells. At each level, a cleric may choose to swap out up to one spell of each level for a different spell on the cleric spell list of the same level. A cleric can use scrolls or spell-trigger items containing clerical spells not on his selected list of spells.
That's all there is to it.
Honestly, its not been a huge problem in my campaign, and I've usually handled this by saying that cleric's know the spells in the "core" products, and can be trained to learn other sources, i.e. if they go to a temple specializing in fighting undead, they may learn some things from Libris Mortis, for example.
I was just trying to throw something out there quick and simple. Its not something I think is desperately needed, and it seems like, if this isn't flexible enough, the concern isn't just restricting the cleric from using splatbook spells, but nerfing him in general, which I don't think needs to be done, at least other than potentially tweaking a few domain powers, etc.
Honestly, its not been a huge problem in my campaign, and I've usually handled this by saying that cleric's know the spells in the "core" products, and can be trained to learn other sources, i.e. if they go to a temple specializing in fighting undead, they may learn some things from Libris Mortis, for example.
Funny thing is this is how I thought everyone did it for a long time. its common sence really.the PHB is basic training anything else would be lore or secret spells or spells for higher ups just like wizards are. You want to learn a spell from complete backflipping well do a knowledge religion check .....humm seems there is such a spell but you'll have to go train at the temple of arcroman in the far way mountains . thats how I do it I look over the spell see if it fits the god and not broken and how it fits into my game. simple.
I'm testing something like this out. It seems to work well, so far.
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We've used the same house rule. Anything in Core is fine, but if the Cleric/Druid/whatever wants to learn something non-Core, they have to learn these 'hidden rites' through service to other members of their faith or whatever.
The only exception so far has been Specialist Wizards being able to pick non-Core spells from their specialty schools.
As for Spheres, I liked the idea back in 2E, but that's where it belongs, I think. Some day there might be a 5E, with customizable Specialty Priests again, but for now, that ship has sailed.
The 'codzilla' problem can be dealt with pretty easily by tweaking a few specific spells that make the Cleric 'too good' at one-upping Fighters. Just as Knock can be tweaked in the Wizard list because it's mean to Rogues, so too can Righteous Might be tweaked so that it's a little less rude to Fighters.
IMO, the best 'fix' is gonna be the one that is A) most backwards compatible and B) most elegant.
In my opinion, there seems to be a general consensus that the cleric class is overamped, a problem that has only been exacerbated by the glut of spells and divine feats from follow-on sourcebooks.
My modest proposal to curb one element of the CODzilla syndrome: revisit the Spheres mechanic of 2E. Under this proposal, each domain would be associated with a group of spells. Those spells would be added to the cleric's spell list.This option is rediculously overcomplicated. And I'm not sure it would even solve the problem it is trying to address. Kudos though for reasearching this back to 2nd ed.
I've played the same cleric since 3.0 first appeared and in all the time I have played the character or seen anyone else play a cleric- they are not overpowered. And after playtesting the new rules they are still on the same power level as everyone else.
Here is why clerics are still balanced.
1. While they have more spells to choose from they are still limited in what they prepare for the day. I once had a player with a cleric whose catchphrase was. "I can do that tommorow" Choosing what you think you need for the day is still a gamble that helps balance the class.2. Nearly every other class, especially under the Alpha rules have many options that can be combined to do multiple things in one round and combine effects in interesting ways. The cleric is still stuck using a standard action every round to cast a spell that generally has one overall effect on the proceedings. Furthermore the cleric lacks many of the compatible power options,using only class abilities, the other classes do to enhance their powers.(such as the Rogue talents combined with sneak attacks) The Cleric must resort to feats to get more than a standard spell off per round or enhance their abilities.
3. Under the new rules Rebuking undead is actually less powerful at low levels. Chances are you won't be able to control the undead when you rebuke and you will instead heal them.
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This is really just sort of a side comment, but ... I always find it odd / interesting that we often come back to some variation of the 'Clerics are over powered' argument, yet most people agree that, in practice, few people want to actually play a Cleric. I wonder why that is?
I have no answer to this and I'm not trying to make a point either way really ... I just find it interesting that the Class that seems to most often get accused of be too powerful is the class that most people don't want to play ...
To bring it back a bit to the topic at hand: I personally hated 2E spheres (actually, there was very little I liked about 2e) and LOVE 3E domains. I like even more what Paizo is doing to tweak the domains.
This is really just sort of a side comment, but ... I always find it odd / interesting that we often come back to some variation of the 'Clerics are over powered' argument, yet most people agree that, in practice, few people want to actually play a Cleric. I wonder why that is?
I have no answer to this and I'm not trying to make a point either way really ... I just find it interesting that the Class that seems to most often get accused of be too powerful is the class that most people don't want to play ...I think people see the sheer amount of spells a cleric has access to and panic. What they don't realize is that while they have the widest access to spells, Clerics actually have the least amount of choices in combat and rarely get as many multiple actions as other classes.
That would be so not backwards compatible.
Ummm...no. NO SPHERES. You've got a problem with Splattbooks limit the content they are aloud. There have been many suggestions here to do so.
Secondly, the majority of splat books and their content are not OGC and therefore beyond the control of Pathfinder RPG. Only DMs with access with said books can adjucate their use. If you find a spell or a source book either overpowered or filled with unbalanced content then simply don't allow its use.
IMO, CODzilla is a myth. I have not come across a straight cleric using core rules that succeeded outshining other classes. Very often most in my groups don't even give the cleric a second glance because they were dull and lacked umph! Also those that did never bothered to look at the vast array of supplemental books that adorn my shelf unless I mention that it is a book allowed in the campaign I am running.
This is really just sort of a side comment, but ... I always find it odd / interesting that we often come back to some variation of the 'Clerics are over powered' argument, yet most people agree that, in practice, few people want to actually play a Cleric. I wonder why that is?
It's been my experience with Clerics that while a few people genuinely do like playing them, for the most part Clerics are incredibly boring to play, because they are mainly reactive/passive contributors to party success.
While they do have access to a great selection of buffs, divinations, and healing magic, it just doesn't have the same satisfaction as eviscerating your enemies with barbarian rage or rolling 6 dice worth of sneak attack damage. Which is more exciting: asking God a question about what's behind this next door or summoning up a nest of writhing black tentacles? Information can be powerful, but it's often not very exciting.
Personally, I dislike playing Clerics for this very reason--- while they are powerful their reactive "niche" is really boring for me. (Of course you can play against niche, but that's not really what Clerics are for.)
Then again, there's the issue of the Cleric potentially being equal to (rogue) or better than (fighter) other classes at filling some of the essential functions of those classes. The only time I really enjoyed myself as a cleric was when I didn't cast a single spell on someone else's behalf-- a trifle selfish, but then again no one calls dibs on the Wizard's spells. I told the players "If you want cleric spells, multiclass. These spells are mine. I'll get a wand to heal you after combat."
I recommend two adjustments:
1. No bonus Domain spell slots.
2. Break up Domain Access.
By point 2 I mean, Domain Power and Spells Provided. Clerics choose Domain Power, or Domain Spells as a selection. They still have 2 selections to make, but if a cleric wants to be able to turn earth elementals and cast dirty spells, it will cost them both selections.