I like the new skill system but the alpha document did not fix the perform skill. (skill page 21)
According to the SRD, There is actually nine (9) perform skills:
Act (comedy, drama, mime)
Comedy (buffoonery, limericks, joke-telling)
Dance (ballet, waltz, jig)
Keyboard instruments (harpsichord, piano, pipe organ)
Oratory (epic, ode, storytelling)
Percussion instruments (bells, chimes, drums, gong)
String instruments (fiddle, harp, lute, mandolin)
Wind instruments (flute, pan pipes, recorder, shawm, trumpet)
Sing (ballad, chant, melody)
I think the list could be reformed & simplified. The PF’s perform skill could be reduced to three skill instead of nine :
- Music (folk) : You have learn by ear how to dance, play & sing the popular music of your culture. You can play simple folk melodies on various instruments such as fiddles, pipes, horns, plucked strings & percussions.
This skill can be used untrained.
- Music (academic) : You have learn how to read & write music. You can play polyphonic music on complex instruments such as harpsichord, violins, woodwinds, brass, organ & lute.
This is a class skill for bards, cleric, expert & noble.
This skill can’t be used untrained.
- Comedy : You can entertain & influence an audience with your comedy, drama, mime, Comedy buffoonery, limericks & joke-telling skills.
This skill can be used untrained.
Period instruments from middle age were easy to learn & to play, they did not support the kind of complexity expected from modern symphonic orchestral music.
Playing & singing was a common activity : Every body was expected to be able to sing, dance & play some musical instrument. There were no other ways to listen music or to make a good party!
I have assumed that the most complex music would be religious by nature, such as choral singing. Also, I have assumed that the Chelaxian Empire developed some kind of polyphonic (hence academic) music (the Foxglove have an harpsichord in their manor).
I tend to disagree with this consolidation. If you are looking to reconsolidate Perform perhaps returning it to its 3.0 style of "pick one instrument/method" per Rank would be better.
As a frequent Bard player I have no problems with the current way Perform Skills are divided up if skill points remain.
I can see that under the current Alpha Skill system having 9 perform skills would be a bit of drag (and good reason not to go static SAGA-like), so going back to a 3.0 style of one instrument per sudo-rank would be best, and avoid odd arbitrary groupings like your Comedy. Which could also be called Acting, which could also be split into elements for Perform (Folk) or Perform (Academic).
You're also missing operatic singing and artistic dancing like ballet from Perform (Academic).
3.5 Perform is Untrained. Anyone and everyone sing, dance, play the harmonica. The question is can they do it to the same level as a highly trained performer (with 4 Rank in Perform).
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I can't see giving up Perform (oratory), sorry.
I can see that under the current Alpha Skill system having 9 perform skills would be a bit of drag (and good reason not to go static SAGA-like), so going back to a 3.0 style of one instrument per sudo-rank would be best, and avoid odd arbitrary groupings like your Comedy. Which could also be called Acting, which could also be split into elements for Perform (Folk) or Perform (Academic).
If we were to assume that the Alpha skill system were to remain in place, I'd suggest you handle Perform like Linguistics - one new instrument per skill pick.
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Period instruments from middle age were easy to learn & to play, they did not support the kind of complexity expected from modern symphonic orchestral music.
Some of the period instruments don't support complex music because it's so hard to do even simple things with them. And there are so many instruments that cross over.
Is the cymbal (in the aorchestra) that complex?Playing & singing was a common activity : Every body was expected to be able to sing, dance & play some musical instrument. There were no other ways to listen music or to make a good party!
Is this meant to be historical? I'd love to see the evidence.
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*nods*
I'd like to see Perform go back to the 3.0 system as well, HOWEVER, I want it to work like Knowledge. Pick a perform type.. flute. Increase "ranks" or whatever in flute perform. That way, like a Wizard, or a fighter or whoever, a Bard is proficient with his chosen entertainment type as oppose to being a performer of all types.
So if a Bard with flute skills loses his flute, his abilities won't be as good. No reason a Bard can't also have dance or song or whatever also. But it'd be a different skill, like it should be.. like Knowledge Arcana and Knowledge Planes aren't the same skill.
am the only one who thinks that their only ought to be one perform skill, perform: tragedy, causes it such a frickin tragedy that bards and others have to waste skill points here?
honestly bards are more or less the only class to take these skills (and perhaps more importantly the only class to benefit if they do) yet it seems alot like something that isn't a choice, a bard that doesn't perform a fighter who doesn't fight.
Fix em by removing them, and if you really want stick on a range of music proficiencies like language proficiency. (Because it honestly takes a lot more skill points to play an instrument than speak a language?)
I never play bards. And yet, I have taken - and used - the perform skill. I played a spellcaster who was a dancer in her spare time. She maxed out perform dance. And it saved our party's butts when she was able to distract an opponent from wanting to smash us. It's not useless and should be available for those who don't want to be a bard.
And as someone who practiced the frakkin' piano for an hour a day for over ten years to end up with the ability to be...almost adequate, yes, it is harder to learn to play an instrument than it is to speak a language.
Anyhow, I don't like the idea of oversimplifying the perform skill since that loses a lot of the flavor. To say that someone who knows how to play the flute can suddenly pick up a harp and play it expertly is ridiculous and vice versa. It should work like knowledge.
Well this comes from one who has trouble both learning languages and playing instruments, but I'd say that neither of them is easier then the other. For some people their harder for some easier. But as you learn instruments or languages it becomes easier and easier as you already know the basics. So with that said I think I agree with the one "skill" rank meaning a new instrument. Cause having done enough theatre and dealt with enough music people there is something that makes it easier once you've got the basics down.
Spend four weeks with a fiddle then repeat that statement. Or a lyre. Or a mandolin. Or a flute, even. Certainly a bagpipe.Also, is a bagpipe folk or academic? It's a folk instrument, and commonly learned and played by the folk of the islands.
Well, that is because playing bagpipe is not part of YOUR culture, it is exotic. If every body in your family played the bagpipe every Saturday night, it would be different.
Bag pipe is a folk instrument, every region of Europe used to have variation of it. It became obsolete when the accordion was invented.
Fix em by removing them, and if you really want stick on a range of music proficiencies like language proficiency. (Because it honestly takes a lot more skill points to play an instrument than speak a language?)
In a modern D20 setting, it would make sense to have separate skill for every instruments.
Middle-age folk music was VERY simple : a drone (such as from a bag pipe or hurdy gurdy) & a melody. Remember that music was not written and was solely transmitted from a bard to another bard as an oral tradition. During the middle-age, a musician was expected to be able to play, sing & tell stories, I was its job.
And as someone who practiced the frakkin' piano for an hour a day for over ten years to end up with the ability to be...almost adequate, yes, it is harder to learn to play an instrument than it is to speak a language.
Anyhow, I don't like the idea of oversimplifying the perform skill since that loses a lot of the flavor. To say that someone who knows how to play the flute can suddenly pick up a harp and play it expertly is ridiculous and vice versa. It should work like knowledge.
Well piano is "Modern" instrument. It is not complicated to play, you just have to press the right key! But the Music that was composed since its invention became intricate. That what happens when an instrument is easy to play! In a fantasy setting, we can assume such complexities does not exist. There is not wet even a system to write or publish music. There is no such thing as Harmony, counterpoint, sharp or flat.
You're also missing operatic singing and artistic dancing like ballet from Perform (Academic).
Well, it was part of every actor job (such has Shakespeare or Moliere) to be able to act, sing & play some instrument and dance.
The Idea of a "specialized" artist is very new even in our western culture. It is post-renaissance. There were no "Operatic singing" in the middle-age. In a fantasy setting, I assume that it would require an academic training as you proposed.
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Well, that is because playing bagpipe is not part of YOUR culture, it is exotic. If every body in your family played the bagpipe every Saturday night, it would be different.
Bag pipe is a folk instrument, every region of Europe used to have variation of it. It became obsolete when the accordion was invented.
They've never gone obsolete (I play) and I mean, have you ever listened to an accordian? Bagpipes definitely have a better sound :-)
I'm sorry, but is there a difference between a fiddle and a violin? I was under the impression that the difference was in style of play, not the instrument itself.
I like the current(3.5) perform skill: Like Knowledge, Profession, and Craft, it's a good way to cover a diverse but related set of skills.
My musician friends and relatives assure me that learning new instruments gets easier and easier, once you can play one or two of them well. I'd go with the Linguistics approach for learning new Perform groups, or else with the one per ranks or Saga "pseudo-rank" that was also suggested.
I'm sorry, but is there a difference between a fiddle and a violin? I was under the impression that the difference was in style of play, not the instrument itself.
You are right.
Thare are the same, but they do not share the same playing techniques.Also, The violin was not invented during middle age. But there was a complete family of fiddle like instrument. But, It seems that violin and harpsichord are part of the Pathfinder world.
Still a Varisian Gypsies playing the violin (perform : folk) would not have the same technique, repertoire as a Korvosa noble (perform : academic) playing the "Tombeau ou Arvoden".
I like the new skill system but the alpha document did not fix the perform skill. (skill page 21)
According to the SRD, There is actually nine (9) perform skills
Under the Alpha skill system, I thought it would be nice for bard characters not to "loose" precious skill slot over various perform skills.
I have based my choice of folding all perform skill under 3 skill with character creation in mind :
You want to have a bard that can entertain the patron of a tavern, pick only Music (folk).
You want your Korvosa noble to be able to play lute at the balcony of a fair maiden, pick Music (academic).
You want your cleric to be able to compose "cantata" in the glory of its god, pick music (academic).
You want your rogue character to be part of a professional acting troupe or be a great storyteller, pick Comedy.
You want sexy your varisian rogue character to be able to dance while playing tambourine, pick music (folk).
That was the idea
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There is absolutely no reason to consolidate all the variations of Perform. Why not? Because they don't adversely affect anyone. It's not like anyone has to list them all out on their character sheet or anything. The only people who even see them are the folks who play bards or the players who like add depth to their characters, and none of those folks are begging, "Please limit my choices."
I don't see any reason to formalize the list at all. If I'm a player and I want Perform (whistling Dixie), why not? Does it mess up anyone else's game? Or if I'm a DM and I pick up an adventure with an evil Bard whose got 10 ranks of Perform (belly dance), am I confused because Perform (belly dance) isn't in the SRD? Is my player with 9 ranks of Perform (dance) going to complain because the villain's skill is too specific? No. There are no 'balance issues' here. There is no inconvenience to anyone, no game-slowing mechanic. There's nothing to see, so just move along.
The core rules need to list out a handful of the most common Perform sub-skills. If players and DMs want more or less, they'll do it themselves. And it won't affect anyone else. Look, we all have our own opinions about how to best represent the real world in terms of game mechanics [Example- I think it would be more accurate to split Profession into Profession (jobs that require formal schooling) and Trade (jobs are learned on-the-job or through apprenticeships)], and we can do that in out own games, but unless it makes the game play better for everyone it doesn't belong in the core rules. The core rules need to be simple, flexible and customizable. Just because something doesn't fit our world-view isn't enough reason to call it "broken." To me, the only question that matters is Does it adversely affect gameplay? 9+ Perform skills? In my book, not a problem.
Is there really a need for this skill at all?
Lets be honest. In the usual D&D round, how critical was a certain rank in perform (what ever)?
If you want your character being able to play some instrument(s) or being a good dancer. That just say so. The need for putting skill points in there is somehow, well, unfair... perhaps.
The same goes for craft and profession.
Perform (Oratory) is actually a thematically fantastic skill for leader-type characters, bard or no.
Then the bard class is poorly build right?
All their songs need a perform rank AND a class level. But since the perform rank needed is always Class level +3 you could also just drop the entire skill and make it a "class level check + x" if needed.
But if you like to keep perform as a skill, I would suggest the following:
Acting: Tragedy, Comedy, pantomime
Jester: carnival/circus tricks (Juggling, breath fire, swallow swords, etc.)
Music: Sing, play instruments, compose music
Oratory: Poems, Epic, Odes, Comedy (like jokes) and other stories
Dancing: Ballet, Pairdance, Folkdance, Expression dance/eurythmy
The problem with that kind of break down, I think I posted this in the 'Bard: In dire need of an overhaul' thread, there are 3 kinds of Bardic Performance uses that need to be considered.
• Movement: Currently not covered well in the Bard's abilities.
• Instrument: Requires a bard to use at least one hand if not two during combat, preventing them form attacking while using abilities.
• Vocal: No hands need and allows a bard to fight while using abilities. However it blocks effective communication with the party.
With current Bard rules any Perform skill that gives a bard access to both Instrument and Vocal becomes the best bard skill.
On the personal experience level, in 3.5 I would have to say that Vocal is the strongest type Perform skill for most bard builds.
There is absolutely no reason to consolidate all the variations of Perform. It's not like anyone has to list them all out on their character sheet or anything... 9+ Perform skills? In my book, not a problem.
Well, no one worries except the people who want their bard to be able to sing AND play the lyre. Under your assertion, it is just and fitting that those people get shafted for double the skills hit, because they're stupid for wanting to role-play something like that. Or maybe not... On the flip side, there's no reason NOT to consolidate them all the categories of Perform into one skill; such an approach would fit your logic just as well, and would allow for a singer/lutist without getting "fined" for having multiple perform abilities.
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Who here is genuinely worried that a generalized Perform skill will encourage players to act as though their characters have mastered every type of entertainment?
Every player I know who is inclined to choose the skill, bard or not, is the type of person who is happy to delineate their specialties. They're usally effusive about their chosen instrument/vocal range/dance steps and love integrating them into roleplay. The Perform skill doesn't exactly attract power gamers who capitalize on vague skill loopholes. It attracts people who will write stories about their ancestral violins and gypsy drum circles.
There are many skills that need to be proscribed to discourage abuse. Perform isn’t one of them.
I say just have one Perform skill, and let the players who enjoy the skill knock themselves out.
Don't forget some of the magical musical instruments in the game - Pipes of Haunting, Lyre of Building and the like. Non-bards CAN use these items, so the perform skill does need to stay in some form.
If the skill system stays with the Trained/Untrained track, I think it would be best if each level a character whose taken this adds an extra instrument at each level. If we stick with skill points, the old system should stay in place.
And I've actually seen a couple Dungeon adventures that include opera houses, and I believe opera exists in Eberron (Sharn sourcebook?).
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There are many skills that need to be proscribed to discourage abuse. Perform isn’t one of them.
I say just have one Perform skill, and let the players who enjoy the skill knock themselves out.
Let's say for a moment that this were the case. How would an adventure writer create an encounter that takes advantage of Perform? I'm thinking of, for example, that PCs stumble across a piano or organ or something that must be played correctly to open a secret door (Goonies?). Your bard has been a funny guy so far, using Perform to entertain and boost spirits. In the old days this would have been Perform (comedy). Does he get to use unspecific Perform skill to try to play the piano?
I guess he'd probably have a better chance than anyone else. But if he's got a lot of ranks (he's REALLY funny), it would seem wrong to let him use all of them to play an instrument he's never expressed interest in before. Is it left up to the DM to assign a penalty? -4?
I generally agree with your sentiments, I just down know how it would work out.
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Well, no one worries except the people who want their bard to be able to sing AND play the lyre. Under your assertion, it is just and fitting that those people get shafted for double the skills hit, because they're stupid for wanting to role-play something like that.
First off, careful stuffing word in my mouth, I didn't say anyone was stupid. I think taking multiple Performs is a valid choice, especially for someone who likes to really develop their characters.
Now, as to getting "shafted" for having to spend skill points twice, why not? If I want ranks in Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (religion) I have to pay for them both. If I want to be able to Craft (armor) and Craft (weapons), I'm going to have to pay for it with two sets of skill points. Hardly a "fine," and certainly not "shafted." At the same time, I have no problem adding a new instrument/etc. with each rank or doing something like skill tricks where you burn a point and instead of buying a rank you buy a new instrument.
My person preference would be to let PCs come up with their own categories. As a DM I'm thinking, you want your guy to play lyre and sing as one Perform skill, justify it to me. What can you do? What are your limits? Can you sing without the lyre? Is your lyre playing as moving when you're not singing? You wanna' tie 'em together, as a DM I'd say, then they always got to be used together. -2 if you try one without the other, but otherwise, sure. And now that you've defined your skills as Perform (sing & play lyre), don't expect to be able to pick up a drum and play.
That's why I prefer my small set of perform skills.
While it might not be as realisitic as the 3.5 System and not that easy-living as the 3.0 it is a good (the best) solution in between.
I'm soo sorry! How could I have forget THAT!
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I'm sorry, but is there a difference between a fiddle and a violin? I was under the impression that the difference was in style of play, not the instrument itself.
You are right.
Thare are the same, but they do not share the same playing techniques.Also, The violin was not invented during middle age. But there was a complete family of fiddle like instrument. But, It seems that violin and harpsichord are part of the Pathfinder world.
Still a Varisian Gypsies playing the violin (perform : folk) would not have the same technique, repertoire as a Korvosa noble (perform : academic) playing the "Tombeau ou Arvoden".
Period instruments from middle age were easy to learn & to play, they did not support the kind of complexity expected from modern symphonic orchestral music.
Make up your mind. You're saying that in the middle ages most people were expected to be reasonably proficient in playing an instrument and maybe a few folk dances or singing, and yet you want a single skill to be able to allow for multiple instruments, dancing in any format, singing in any style, etc. Then you want another skill to cover reading and writing music, stageplays, and symphonies, which to you is the "more complicated" performance (and yet as easy to learn as the other skill). You're also saying that the same instrument or close family of instruments handles both.
Frankly, if you want a simplified skills set that handles the divergence in style that you reccomend, there's already a solution made - it's the 3.5 core, designed and functional in the performance of doing just that. If you want instrument-for-instrument and act-for-act, that's even easier. Make it into Performance (specific instrument or specific activity). Your proposal just seems like reinventing the wheel into a square shape.[url=smurf][/url]
First off, careful stuffing word in my mouth, I didn't say anyone was stupid.
I had read your post as maybe being more sarcastic than was intended. Apologies.
Now, as to getting "shafted" for having to spend skill points twice, why not? If I want ranks in Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (religion) I have to pay for them both. If I want to be able to Craft (armor) and Craft (weapons), I'm going to have to pay for it with two sets of skill points. Hardly a "fine," and certainly not "shafted." At the same time, I have no problem adding a new instrument/etc. with each rank or doing something like skill tricks where you burn a point and instead of buying a rank you buy a new instrument.
I always thought it was incredibly silly that a blacksmith had no chance of patching a suit of armor. Your skill tricks idea looks like a reasonable suggestion.
And now that you've defined your skills as Perform (sing & play lyre), don't expect to be able to pick up a drum and play.
Just going off the musicians I know, expecting to pick a drum and play is exactly what happens. My brother learned drums well enough to play in a jazz band (like, on stage in front of a large audience) after a few days; his musical experience prior to that consisted of piano and cello lessons. One day he picked up someone's ukelele -- he had never seen one before -- and started composing songs on it. After a couple of instruments, I'm told that they're "all alike." From what I understand talking to other musicians, this isn't unique to my brother; he's not like a savant or something. They all say pretty much the same thing.
Perform (comedy) might be stretching this paradigm a bit, but if we're already combining Listen and Search and Spot into a Perception "superskill," then leaving Perform as 9+ different skills seems a bit silly to me, is all.
This arguement reminded me of a lovely little sidebar in the Player's Guide to Arcanis that offers a solution to the way knowledge skills work that would be applicable here. For those of you who have the book, it is the "To specialize or not to specialize" sidebar on page 150. For those of you who don't, I will summarize using an example based on the perform skill. In all of these examples, I am assuming a DC of 10 on any kind of check asked as a base.
(Spoilered, because i hate scrolling through huge posts)
1 - Generalize
Say you placed 5 ranks in Perform(Dance), this has the advantage of giving you the ability to perform any kind of dance with at least a modicum of skill. If you were asked to perform any kind of ballroom dance, you could probably do it, but because of your generalized education in dance, the DC might be 5 higher or 15 using my statement above. If instead you were asked to perform the classic ballroom dance called the Tango, this is a very specific request and would probably warrant a DC20 check.
2 - Specialize
Consider instead maybe having those 5 ranks in Perform(Dance:Ballroom). With this specialized training, Ballroom dancing is now a simple DC10 and to recall the specific knowledge to do the Tango with precision, you are now looking at a DC15 which is much easier to do than with generalization. On the down side however, of you were requested to do any non-ballroom dance, the DC would also be 15 as your specialized training locks you into certain patterns. The same is also true of being asked to do a specific dance from another discipline, you are probably going to be left out with another DC20.
3 - Subspecialize
Now somewhere out there, there is probably some rosethorn poisoned purist who has 5 ranks in Perform(Dance:Ballroom:Tango). In the examples given, he would have to make a DC15 for any non-tango ballroom dance and a DC20 if he were asked to dance something that did not come from a ballroom setting. On the other hand, if the task of dancing the perfect tango is the order of the day, this is probably your man.
The whole point of this being, sure it is nice to have a catchall skill for some things (something that I personally think spot,search and listen needed), perform is simply a different kind of skill altogether. It would be just as logical to create a catchall for knowledge or even craft as it would be to create a catchall for perform.
This arguement reminded me of a lovely little sidebar in the Player's Guide to Arcanis that offers a solution to the way knowledge skills work that would be applicable here. For those of you who have the book, it is the "To specialize or not to specialize" sidebar on page 150.
That sounds like a nifty sidebar, and a clever idea. Thanks!
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Well, yes and no. I've been playing guitar for 20 years, and I can certainly sit down to drums or bass guitar and just go with it. I picked up violin a year ago and while similar, they are obviously not the same. I'm certainly picking the instrument up faster than your average bear, but I'm not ready to perform in front of people.
New instruments are certainly easier to pick up and hack with once you're proficient with one instrument that shares some characteristics (ie, drums and guitar are both percussion, violin and guitar both have strings that you finger), but having real proficiency in any instrument requires dedication to that specific instrument. Hell, that's true for techniques with the same instrument. Anyone ever tried to play slide guitar? What about classical style?
For my money, the current system functions admirably well. GMs interested in really focusing on these aspects for their campaigns can house rule synergies between skills as needed.
ie, drums and guitar are both percussion
First off -- I'm very glad to have someone who can play a bit weigh in on this; thanks. I can't even carry a tune myself, so I'm going off conversations with others (certainly I would never have considered a guitar to be percussion, left on my own).