After purchasing and reading through (glancing, in some cases) various Pathfinder projects, I can't help but notice that the Pathfinder Campaign Setting seems to be a place where evil often rampages unchecked. Tyrants routinely oppress the weak and create misery, people openly worship devils and evil powers, and cruelty seems common. I know a D&D world that's full of conflict and strife is better than a world where everything's peaceful, but I wonder if Pathfinder's overdoing it? Where are the bastions of good and the havens of peace, love, and safety in the world?
Note: Please don't take this as a complaint. I'm just trying to see how my opinion matches up with everyone else's.
The Golarion setting seems fairly standard to me regarding good/evil, light/dark, hostile/peaceful. Which is a good thing to me. I have not seen anything that would make me think it is more so than Faerun, Oerth, or Kalamar. I would say it doesnt even come close to oppressive yet very enjoyable settings such as Athas in Dark Sun, Aryth of the Midnight setting or the Known World of Warhammer. I think it may seem such because so much of the product so far is heavily slanted toward adventures themself. I strongly suspect the Campaign Setting will even things out.
As a side note, much thanks to Paizo for not going with a world name derived from "Earth". I have had my fill of those.
-Weylin Stormcrowe
...the Pathfinder Campaign Setting seems to be a place where evil often rampages unchecked. Tyrants routinely oppress the weak and create misery, people openly worship devils and evil powers, and cruelty seems common.
Sounds like historical earth to me...
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...the Pathfinder Campaign Setting seems to be a place where evil often rampages unchecked. Tyrants routinely oppress the weak and create misery, people openly worship devils and evil powers, and cruelty seems common.Sounds like historical earth to me...
On a good day. We call them the Dark Ages for a reason.
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On a good day. We call them the Dark Ages for a reason.
I was thinking modern time actually. Could use some Paladin around.
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I was thinking modern time actually. Could use some Paladin around.
On a good day. We call them the Dark Ages for a reason.
We call them "police officers". (The good ones, anyway.) Be that as it may, I have noticed the dark tone myself. But I've played in what's arguably one of the darkest settings ever (Ravenloft) and had a good time. Now don't get me wrong, I like bastions of good probably more than the average player and certainly more than the average GM, but there's a good, solid game design reason for dark settings: making PCs important. If there's a big, well-organized, well-staffed, well-funded good organization, people (including the PCs!) will turn to them for help. That can sometimes be cool (In one campaign, I fed PCs more adventure hooks through operatives of the Ossorus Council, a good secret society of mine, than probably any other source.) but can also leave the players with an attitude of "Why bother? Someone will take care of this, even if we don't. Let's find something more lucrative." an attitude which is neither heroic nor adventurous. I think Golarion may have so many dark spots to make the PCs a useful force in the world, rather than just one of many noble-hearted groups working in loose concert to stamp out every malign force in the setting. Also, if truly good allies are hard or impossible to come by, you can introduce some moral dilemma into the game. Do you need help badly enough to seek out the Hellknights for assistance? If yes, how do you deal with the fact that they're going to want to brutally torture information out of any prisoner who doesn't immediately volunteer every useful scrap of information they have?
This is exactly why I've added some care bear forests and smu[b][/b]rf villages.
They laughed, but now I am justified!
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I don't know if Golarion's any more evil and dark than your standard campaign setting, but there's certainly a sort of...um, serrated baroqueness that comes through. Like a hyena dominatrix just up and exploded all over it.
Thanks you for that lovely mental image. I'm off to scrub my cerebellum now. With bleach.
"Why bother? Someone will take care of this, even if we don't. Let's find something more lucrative." an attitude which is neither heroic nor adventurous.
I take an opposite approach. Having corruption and misery be the norm makes me want to say "Why bother?" As in "why bother saving these people when some other danger is going to come along and ruin things after we're gone?" I'm not so much looking for forces of good to aid the PCs, but something that the PCs would find worth protecting. Places like the Shire spring to mind. A secluded haven where everyone's nice, happy, and decent to each other but not necessarily able to protect themselves.
I would at least like to see some explanation as to why the powers of Good (deities, angels, etc) aren't involved as much in the day-to-day of Golarion as their counterparts seem to be. Did the forces of Good make some sort of an agreement to stay out of the affairs of the Prime, but got tricked by the forces of Evil, who violate the agreement frequently? I'd make me feel better if I knew that Zaphkiel and his crew were gnashing their teeth in frustration somewhere because they can't just go down and kick Asmodeus' church out of the Prime. And that explains why PCs are needed.
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"Why bother? Someone will take care of this, even if we don't. Let's find something more lucrative." an attitude which is neither heroic nor adventurous.I take an opposite approach. Having corruption and misery be the norm makes me want to say "Why bother?" As in "why bother saving these people when some other danger is going to come along and ruin things after we're gone?" I'm not so much looking for forces of good to aid the PCs, but something that the PCs would find worth protecting. Places like the Shire spring to mind. A secluded haven where everyone's nice, happy, and decent to each other but not necessarily able to protect themselves.
Well, there's the Varisians. Desna-worshipping "gypsies" seem pretty benign. I think the pockets of innocence and peace may become more apparent as more product comes out. But I definitely see your point. Golarion could use a place like the shire. Or Neverwinter. Or Cygnar. Or at least some places like Aundair, Breland, and Thrane that're at least as much good as they are bad.
I would at least like to see some explanation as to why the powers of Good (deities, angels, etc) aren't involved as much in the day-to-day of Golarion as their counterparts seem to be. Did the forces of Good make some sort of an agreement to stay out of the affairs of the Prime, but got tricked by the forces of Evil, who violate the agreement frequently? I'd make me feel better if I knew that Zaphkiel and his crew were gnashing their teeth in frustration somewhere because they can't just go down and kick Asmodeus' church out of the Prime. And that explains why PCs are needed.
Maybe good just isn't as powerful as evil. They might not be doing anything because they'd lose, so they're reduced to string-pulling and subtle manipulation. Good may not have the resources to spare on a large-scale offensive, and instead devotes its resources to keeping the souls of its adherents safe in the afterlife.
Edit: Egads, that's a depressing thought. I'm going to go listen to some happy music and east something sugary now.
Could be argued that Good does less in Golarion because it is Good. There are things it just is not willing to do to defeat evil. Whereas, Evil by its nature has no such constraints in many cases. Even the more constrained Evil(LE) can get away with much more. Also in general, Good tends to value free-will more...therefore it is a rare good-aligned deity that is willing to dominate the world to defeat evil (which is what it would take.)
Also there is the detail that most people are not aware of what alignment they are actually (sometimes too much bleed from game mechanic into setting sometimes). Plenty of villains who think what they do is for the best of all, not matter how heinous it may be. Easy to have an evil hero who thinks "Others will not do what needs to be done, so I will. I did not want to become this person but there was no one else willing to do what we all knew had to be done" and then sets about exterminating an entire village to stop the spread of a plague or undead.
I am overall a fan leaving alignment rather vague outside of the mechanics needed for spells and such. Which is part of why i enjoy the Eberron setting so much...alignment is a much murkier thing there and there is less an inclination for "free fire zone" mentality than can creep up on even the best player sometimes..."It's a goblin tribe therefore they are evil! Kill them all!"
-Weylin Stormcrowe
This is exactly why I've added some care bear forests and smu[b][/b]rf villages.
They laughed, but now I am justified!
Kruelaid...how did you do that? You invoked the "S" word without getting polymorphed!
What the smurf!? Someone's pulling the smurf over our smurfs. That's smurfed up.
On topic: I like the darkness. It makes the PCs' light shine all the brighter. I like the dark side really dark and the light side really light.
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I take an opposite approach. Having corruption and misery be the norm makes me want to say "Why bother?" As in "why bother saving these people when some other danger is going to come along and ruin things after we're gone?" I'm not so much looking for forces of good to aid the PCs, but something that the PCs would find worth protecting. Places like the Shire spring to mind. A secluded haven where everyone's nice, happy, and decent to each other but not necessarily able to protect themselves.
Sandpoint to me at least seemed to really feel that way. Sure there is a couple of bad apples but all and all, it seems like a place the players will want their PC's to hang around and protect it. For the reasons you listed.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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There are a few "good" nations in the Gazetteer. Andoran, which is actually the setting of several stand-alone modules, is one of these. I hear that a write-up of that nation from the Gaz will soon appear on the Blog (maybe Thursday?).
There are others, but there are also a lot of relatively heinous places in the world, too.
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There are a few "good" nations in the Gazetteer. Andoran, which is actually the setting of several stand-alone modules, is one of these. I hear that a write-up of that nation from the Gaz will soon appear on the Blog (maybe Thursday?).
There are others, but there are also a lot of relatively heinous places in the world, too.
Cool! I'd be interested to see what's in there.
Sandpoint to me at least seemed to really feel that way. Sure there are a couple of bad apples but all and all, it seems like a place the players will want their PC's to hang around and protect it. For the reasons you listed.
I agree. Sandpoint seems to be a bastion of light and enlightened civility in a sea of dark barbarism. I love that place. It sort of reminds me of that town in Northern Exposure. (And that's a compliment, btw). But like any good town, there are always a few who try to smu[b][/b]rf up everything...
This is exactly why I've added some care bear forests and smu[/b]rf villages.
They laughed, but now I am justified!
Kruelaid...how did you do that? You invoked the "S" word without getting polymorphed!
<threadjack>
He used special sm[b]urf magic.
</threadjack>*edit* Curses I was too late.
Ha! You can't keep a good smu[/b]rf smu[b]rfed!
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After purchasing and reading through (glancing, in some cases) various Pathfinder projects, I can't help but notice that the Pathfinder Campaign Setting seems to be a place where evil often rampages unchecked. Tyrants routinely oppress the weak and create misery, people openly worship devils and evil powers, and cruelty seems common. I know a D&D world that's full of conflict and strife is better than a world where everything's peaceful, but I wonder if Pathfinder's overdoing it? Where are the bastions of good and the havens of peace, love, and safety in the world?
Note: Please don't take this as a complaint. I'm just trying to see how my opinion matches up with everyone else's.
Oh I don't think its that far off the norm. Look at Greyhawk. You had Iuz, the Scarlet Brotherhood, Pomarj, Bone March, Occupied Geoff & Steriech, The Bright Desert (rary's realm), The Great Kingdom (now parts of it are evil, parts not so much), etc...
That seems like quite a large chunk under the control of evil states. I think Golarion is in the same vein.
Ha! You can't keep a good smu[/b]rf smu[b]rfed!I am SO fixing that.
Someday...
Heh heh. Yeah, yeah...you're all talk and no smu[b][/b]rf...
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After purchasing and reading through (glancing, in some cases) various Pathfinder projects, I can't help but notice that the Pathfinder Campaign Setting seems to be a place where evil often rampages unchecked. Tyrants routinely oppress the weak and create misery, people openly worship devils and evil powers, and cruelty seems common. I know a D&D world that's full of conflict and strife is better than a world where everything's peaceful, but I wonder if Pathfinder's overdoing it? Where are the bastions of good and the havens of peace, love, and safety in the world?
Note: Please don't take this as a complaint. I'm just trying to see how my opinion matches up with everyone else's.
Oh I don't think its that far off the norm. Look at Greyhawk. You had Iuz, the Scarlet Brotherhood, Pomarj, Bone March, Occupied Geoff & Steriech, The Bright Desert (rary's realm), The Great Kingdom (now parts of it are evil, parts not so much), etc...
That seems like quite a large chunk under the control of evil states. I think Golarion is in the same vein.
If you look at real-world history around the time that typical fantasy technology would indicate, it was even worse. You'd be hard-pressed to find even one civilization that was "good" by modern standards. Ancient Greece probably got the closest.
The smurfing smurf icons should smurf..I mean stay!
I like that it's not a happy go lucky world, the real world is dark too, at least in this one you can fireball the bad guys. :P
I didn't view the setting as evil at all. Actually, I viewed it as rather dynamic and modern. Every nation is ruled by a tyrant or tyrants be they political or commercial. Even though they're tyrants, they're not wholesale "evil."
Take McDonald's, for instance: it underpays and mistreats its workers, works hard at discouraging unionization, has helped dominate global politics and economics, endangered the global population with fecal-tainted meat, etc. but it has sponsored the Ronald McDonald House which helps children. Everything has a dark and light side, and nothing is so completely consumed by either a pure essence of good, evil, or neutrality, that I pegged Golarion as par for the course of a more realistic backdrop in an unrealistic endeavor.
I'd feel that if Golarion was a world of only absolutes, and mostly good at that, that it wouldn't engage me as much as figuring out complex issues that influence good character roleplaying instead of mere hack-n-slash based solely upon a Detect Evil spell. I'd otherwise might as well play a shoot-M-up computer game if I want that.
I guess I just don't see it that way. I can roleplay perfectly well without "complex issues."
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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The smu[/b]rfing smu[b]rf icons should smur[/b]f..I mean stay!
I like that it's not a happy go lucky world, the real world is dark too, at least in this one you can fireball the bad guys. :P
Three words. Fuel Air Explosive.
"Of course I eat s[b]murfs. how else would I maintain my colour?"
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This is exactly why I've added some care bear forests and smu[/b]rf villages.
They laughed, but now I am justified!
Kruelaid...how did you do that? You invoked the "S" word without getting polymorphed!
What the sm[b]urf!? Someone's pulling the sm[/b]urf over our sm[b]urfs. That's sm[/b]urfed up.
On topic: I like the darkness. It makes the PCs' light shine all the brighter. I like the dark side really dark and the light side really light.
The bolder the sm[b]urf, the less you get of him! ;)
I take an opposite approach. Having corruption and misery be the norm makes me want to say "Why bother?" As in "why bother saving these people when some other danger is going to come along and ruin things after we're gone?" I'm not so much looking for forces of good to aid the PCs, but something that the PCs would find worth protecting. Places like the Shire spring to mind. A secluded haven where everyone's nice, happy, and decent to each other but not necessarily able to protect themselves.
So why don't you, as a player (or have your players, if you're the DM) take over an evil location and make the place worth protecting?
To the original poster's comment...
...with the understanding he doesn't want advice, merely feedback for comparison...
The Campaign certainly doesn't pull any punches, this I agree and concede. It's a matter of taste, and I'd never tell someone their taste is 'wrong'.
Nevertheless, my players love it for that reason. It's not outside my imagination that not everyone would feel the same, but my two *two* Golarion groups both are reporting that the campaign tone is just right. They might cringe and chuckle at the worst Nick Logue has done, but they think Runelords has hit target dead on for their taste.
(Yep, I'm running Runelords for two different groups, one straight 3.5, the other with PGRPG. Tickled pink really, because I feel like I am really getting my money's worth in entertainment value, and now 10 people have been introduced to Golarion instead of 5!)
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I've only encountered five locations with any depth so far;
Sandpoint, Magnimar, Falcon's Hollow and Korvosa.
Sandpoint is a lovely place, despite its unfortunate recent history.
Magnimar seems alright, government's not perfect but it's okay.
Korvosa has a load of decent people suffering from an advanced case of feudalism - all of the evil seems to be with the rich and powerful - but I imagine you could live a pleasant enough life there.
Falcons Hollow is downtrodden and oppressed, but you can clearly see how your adventurers (once powerful) could help shake off the shackles and help to make it a pleasant place to live.
The stuff in the Journal make Kaer Maga just seem a bit crazy, can't really get a sense of it yet.
So enlighten us, O threadjackers, how we may also smurf without being smurfed in turn?
Srnurf
smurf
smurf
Like so:
smu[b][/b]rf
Is there any particular reason I usually end up as the female smurf?
Just asking.
Like so:
smu[b][/b]rf
Aha!
Is there any particular reason I usually end up as the female s[/b]murf?
Just asking.
They s[b]murfed right through you, you s[/b]murfy s[b]murf.
I feel smurfed and all smurfed in the open. I guess I am out of the smurf now.
...the Pathfinder Campaign Setting seems to be a place where evil often rampages unchecked. Tyrants routinely oppress the weak and create misery, people openly worship devils and evil powers, and cruelty seems common.Sounds like historical earth to me...
And modern Earth. Watch the new much?
I was thinking modern time actually. Could use some Paladin around.
On a good day. We call them the Dark Ages for a reason.
Don't let Pat Roberts hear you say that. It would be the Crusades all over again.
If you look at real-world history around the time that typical fantasy technology would indicate, it was even worse. You'd be hard-pressed to find even one civilization that was "good" by modern standards. Ancient Greece probably got the closest.
Minus that whole conquering the world and child molesting thing?
I guess I just don't see it that way. I can roleplay perfectly well without "complex issues."
This setting is actually sunshine and flowers next to my home brew world. I've actually darkened RotRL to keep my PCs getting what they exspect. Human experience shines at its brightest when in conflict, not at peace. The more complex the issue the better I like it.
I think Golarion hits just the right amount of Dark/Hostile/Evil imho.
For example, looking at the sunny looking map of Sandpoint and knowing such an underlying taint of evil exists is a nice contrast.
I really like the settings atmosphere so far.
IN THE GRIM DARKNESS OF GOLARION THERE IS ONLY WAR AND GRIMDARK
it has a feel that reminds me a little of ravenloft, which makes me smile.
I am deliberately not scrambling the word "smurf" here.
And re: Golarion and darkness, having only seen the first adventure path, I suspect the difference may be that the Pathfinder stuff is a little more explicit in its depiction of rampant horror, whereas other settings tend to leave it more implied. (e.g., other settings have monsters that clearly eat people, but Golarian shows it actually happening in front of you).
-The Gneech
Like so:
smu[b][/b]rf
L-Smurf-L