Hey guys, I thought I would just post a general critique/praise thread for the races.
I open it to everyone who has some comments they want to make on the races; hopefully, this way it will be clean, neat, and, therefore, easy for the designers to take note of.
DWARVES:
Hits:
1> The standard fare is the same; personally, I like my dwarves wielding axes, having constitution bonuses, and possessing the 3 S's - Slow, Steady, Stable. Also, I like seeing the options carried through with Hatred and Defensive Training . . . as long as the story/history of Dwarves backs this up.
Misses:
1> Charisma as a penalty. I understand the gruffness aspect, but what this does via game mechanics I have always found odd (not just here, but any racial charisma penalty). Essentially, this penalty is saying that Dwarves actually find themselves to be less charismatic than other races on the whole . . .even Elves. I know I am reading a bit much into this, but it is just a pet peeve kind of thing.
2> Greed. I like the concept of the ability, as it, along with Keen Senses, Hatred, etc., add flavor to the dwarf. It is just that the name Greed is a bit connotative, eh?
Thoughts:
? - In my homebrew Dwarves ancient connection to the earth and their mountainous homes has granted them stone-like skin. This results in a +1 Natural Armor bonus. Obviously, other things would have to be tuned down in order for this to be implemented, but I just felt like throwing it out there for discussion.
ELVES:
Disclaimer - I have always been of the mind that Elves should be sorcerers. Why? Because in most literature they are described as inherently magical (a la the sorcerer), they are described as having an unearthly appeal or charisma (a la the 3.5 sorcerer), and rarely are they portrayed as studious or bookish (a la the classic wizard). So that may color my view of the elf.
So before I continue, again this is my opinion . . .a lot of this stuff looks mechanically sound, just thought I'd argue for a flavor change while I was at it.
Hits:
1> Racial ability adjustments. Again I would bump Charisma, but if you are going to play the Elven people as highly intelligent wizards these changes work.
2> Elven Magic. Yeah, something that at least somewhat speaks to the fact that Elven magic is considered 'special' in some regard. I like that this addresses the magical nature of elves.
Misses:
1> Unearthly Beauty: It is weird seeing a racial ability that essentially tells the DM to ignore as he sees fit. Just seems out of place in a core rule book. Other than that, I suggest a +2 Charisma bump to capture the feel of this power and then see also my disclaimer above.
Rogue,
Your comments on elves are well-received (I think LilithsThrall, who just posted similar sentiments elsewhere, would agree as well). Your concept of sorcerer as a favored class and +2 Cha, while a break from 3e, would obviate the need for a separate "uneartly beauty" mechanic, which seems to be catching a lot of flack from critics. I think what you've advocated is a great solution overall.
Besides, I suspect wizard was their favored class in 3e because 1e/2e HAD no sorcerers, only wizards.
I think one of the reasons Elves are considered wizardly, as opposed to sorcerous is because they have the TIME to learn wizard magic.
That's a good point. Maybe favored-sorcerer elves take a long time and a lot of meditating in the woods to develop their inherent potential? Dunno.
After thinking a bit, another issue is backwards compatability. Paizo may be loathe to change too much.
I plan to post my thoughts on Gnomes and the rest soon. I hope others do likewise.
Hey guys, I thought I would just post a general critique/praise thread for the races.
I open it to everyone who has some comments they want to make on the races; hopefully, this way it will be clean, neat, and, therefore, easy for the designers to take note of.
One of my biggest peeves with the race write-ups is their CHA modifiers. I think the criteria for them is highly subjective (gruffness and/or amiability are not what CHA modifiers should be based on... CHA accounts for one's force of presence) and, as such, they should be done away with.
I'm fine with 1/2 Orcs with a CHA penalty but feel that Dwarves shouldn't take a hit a to CHA is 1/2 Orcs don't.
The same goes (conversely) for Gnomes and Elves.
GNOMES:
Hits:
1> I like the flavor. The concept of them being tied to the prime by an obsession reminds me a bit of Dark Sun and dwarven foci, but in a good way. Just making them more fey is a good move in my book.
Misses:
1> The big thing with me is that still don't feel that special. Yes, they get a few little magic acts a day and they get bonuses to illusions, but they seem a bit blah compared to the archetypes out there. I have never really had gnomes played in my campaigns, and while this is a step up, it still feels like it is holding back. Sorry if that is vague. I will think on what I am trying to articulate and type it out soon.
HALF-ELVES:
Hits:
1> I like the concept of the +2 bonus as you desire. In general, I like this half-elf and am doubtful it is in need of much revision. It seems to fit in well with the others . . .except for
Misses:
1> Humans. It feels weak compared to humans. I will expand on this when I type out humans.
I agree with +2 Cha for elves. I'd move the +2 Int bonus to gnomes (but I've always seen them as wizards and not 3.5's bards) and give the halflings the Cha bonus as well.
As for dwarves, I think a Dex penalty makes the most sense. But now we get into backwards compatibility problems.
I agree with +2 Cha for elves. I'd move the +2 Int bonus to gnomes (but I've always seen them as wizards and not 3.5's bards) and give the halflings the Cha bonus as well.
As for dwarves, I think a Dex penalty makes the most sense. But now we get into backwards compatibility problems.
IF CHA bonuses and penalties are included (and I don't think that they should be) I'd roll them out as follows:
Dwarf: Forceful but gruff. Good at commanding in battle, haggling and intimidation. Poor at diplomacy.
Ability Mods: +2 to CON and WIS, -2 to DEX. Sturdy and strong-willed but not agile (due to their solid build and stout frame).
Elf: Unnaturally beautiful, with a powerful presence. Good at commanding in battle, surprisingly good at intimidation (see Galadriel in the LotR) and diplomacy.
Ability Mods: +2 to DEX and CHA*, -2 to CON. Graceful and lithe of build.
*I'd rather the +2 to CHA be a +2 to INT, as this suits elven talent for magic and learning, and is more in keeping with standard, D&D elves.
Gnome: Good-natured, amiable and intuitive in dealing with others. Good at bluffing, haggling and diplomacy. Poor at intimidation and commanding in battle.
Ability Mods: +2 to DEX and WIS, -2 to STR. Nimble, quick to act and perceptive but small in size.
Halfling: Unassuming, amiable and good-natured. Good at bluffing, haggling and diplomacy. Poor at intimidation and commanding in battle.
Ability Mods: +2 to DEX and CON, -2 to STR. Surprisingly nimble and naturally stealthy, they are deceptively tough with a strong endurance. Their small size limits their strength.
Half-Elf: They may take after their elven or human forebears, and are as varied in their gifts as humankind.
Ability Mods: +2 to any 1 ability score.
Half-Orc: Forceful but naturally ill-tempered. They are good at commanding in battle and at intimidation. Poor at diplomacy.
Ability Mods: +2 to STR and WIS, -2 to INT. Broad-shouldered and powerfully built, they are perceptive and watchful by nature (a result of their being outcasts in both human and orcish society). They are physical, not cerebral, creatures.
Human: Incredibly varied in personality.
Ability Mods: +2 to any 1 ability score.
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I like the Pathfinder core races as presented.
I only have 2 beefs:
half Elves might need a little extra to individualize them.
Gnomes are good as long as their favored class, Bard, gets some much needed updating.
Not a fan of the +2 CHA to Elves. INT seems to fit better with their long life and introspective nature.
Not a fan of the +2 CHA to Elves. INT seems to fit better with their long life and introspective nature.
Agreed. I just added a note to that effect in my previous post.
Once again, I'm all for ditching CHA mods for the core races.
HALF-ORCS:
To be honest I am not a fan of the half-races, but they seem to be a staple of fantasy literature . . .so who am I to disagree?
Hits:
1> Orc Ferocity. That is a pretty sweet concept that captures the toughness of the race.
Misses:
1> Orc Ferocity. Is that all they get? Compared to skill options for the other races with human blood, and the suite of Racial abilities the purebloods have, 1/2 Orcs still seem to be getting the short end of the stick. Granted, the stick is not as pointy as it use to be, but still.
Thoughts:
+2 Strength, +2 Wisdom, - 2 Int. Hmm . . .I guess it works, but it doesn't yet feel 1/2 orc-like to me yet.
Hedgewizard, that is a solid argument, and I imagine one that many would agree with you on.
I will have to think on this a bit more before I rebuttal, but thanks for chiming in.
I agree with the notion that Elves should receive a Cha bonus and not an Int one (and be sorcerers rather than wizards), but I strongly disagree Dwarves should not be getting a Cha penalty after thinking about it. Nowhere are dwarves actually described as being stodgy or clumsy physically. The dwarven defender prestige class is actually based around a dwarf utilizing his nimbleness, dwarves are often pointed out as being quite manually dexterous (many are smiths and crafters), and the dwarf's favored and most common class (the fighter) is hurt a lot more by having a Dex penalty than a Cha penalty.
Dwarves virtually everywhere *are* described, however, as being stodgy and clumsy socially, and although one could argue gruffness does not mean less force of character, dwarves in general are very community, if not hive-minded. An individual dwarf is unlikely to have a unique and strong personality, in fact, standing out is often looked down upon by dwarves. This doesn't mean there can't be charismatic dwarves, but those dwarves who are charismatic would likely become part of the small leadership caste of dwarven society, probably war leaders or priests. Furthermore, if you're arguing Charisma means force of presence, and not superficial appeal, the attraction argument is void. That's my two cents at least.
In FR Shield Dwarves get a DEX penalty (if I remember correctly) and, in AD&D, dwarves had a maximum DEX of 17, so limiting a dwarf's DEX has basis in the game's past. I didn't base the ability adjustments on what would work best from a game mechanic standpoint... I based it on what adjustments best typified members of those races.
As for the whole issue of CHA mods, I'd rather Pathfinder just scrap CHA mods altogether. As you can see in my post above, I'd rather that none of the races have them (even elves) because just what CHA measures/means is subjective.
PS: If dwarves DO get a CHA penalty after all, I'd really hope that 1/2 orcs do as well. Both races have always taken a hit to charisma and if one race gets that penalty, I really think it should apply to the other. I'd find it extremely odd that the average 1/2 Orc is more charismatic than the typical dwarf.
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Rogue,
Your comments on elves are well-received (I think LilithsThrall, who just posted similar sentiments elsewhere, would agree as well). Your concept of sorcerer as a favored class and +2 Cha, while a break from 3e, would obviate the need for a separate "uneartly beauty" mechanic, which seems to be catching a lot of flack from critics. I think what you've advocated is a great solution overall.
Besides, I suspect wizard was their favored class in 3e because 1e/2e HAD no sorcerers, only wizards.
Hmmm... I thought the 'Unnatural Beauty' was actually a very fitting, innovative and elegant ability for "Tolkien-ish" elves (which D&D elves have always been). Because no matter how you spin it, if elves are just going to get a charisma "boost" instead, it should, in my opinion, definitely be more than "just" +2 (which is why I'd rather keep 'Unnatural Beauty', but see below my suggestion for elven sub-races).
And 1E/2E had no 'favored class'-mechanic at all, so that's probably not why elves had wizard as favored class in 3E. IIRC Green Elves in FR have Sorcerer as their favored class? That said, I'd like to Elves split into three sub-races: Sun/High Elves (+2 INT and +2 CHA, Favored Class: Sorcerer or Wizard), Wood Elves (+2 DEX and +2 WIS, Favored Class: Ranger) and Moon Elves (+2 DEX and +2 CHA, Favored Class: Bard).
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I've always thought of the CHA modifiers as such:
Dwarves are extremely clannish, and spend all their time underground with other dwarves. As such, they can suffer from a bad case of groupthink, and are taught to submit themselves to the view of the clan, rather than asserting themselves. Hence, the CHA penalty.
Elves, on the other hand, are flighty and prone to come up with their own ideas and strike out on their own, rather than doing everything like they're expected to. Thus, I could see them getting a CHA boost.
Not sure about the half-orcs, though.
Gnomes require +2 INT, -2 WIS. Nothing says "mad scientist likely to irradiate his hometown" like a gnome.
And 1E/2E had no 'favored class'-mechanic at all, so that's probably not why elves had wizard as favored class in 3E
Actually, in essence, 1e did, in the PH by limiting multiclass options to certain races, and especially in UA by totally denying some races the ability to even BE certain classes, and by imposing pathetically low level limits on other classes. And in Basic D&D of course, every elf was by default a fighter/wizard ("magic-user"). But what is a "moon elf"? Is that some sort of Forgotten Realms thing? If so, I'd prefer it not to be a core race.
Ok, what part of "Humans are the 'norm' all other races are measured against" don't people get.
I do not know where you got this from. Can you give me a page # in the PHB or DMG?
Other than that, I actually agree that I am not a big fan of humans having a bonus to an ability, because they get so much other stuff that fits well.
I like the concept that humans are that odd race in the world that is innovative, ambitious, and adaptive. Hence the skill bonuses and the extra feat (and now weapon proficiency).
I have never considered them the norm per se, the most dominant culture and populous race, perhaps, but not the norm.
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And 1E/2E had no 'favored class'-mechanic at all, so that's probably not why elves had wizard as favored class in 3EActually, in essence, 1e did, in the PH by limiting multiclass options to certain races, and especially in UA by totally denying some races the ability to even BE certain classes, and by imposing pathetically low level limits on other classes. And in Basic D&D of course, every elf was by default a fighter/wizard ("magic-user"). But what is a "moon elf"? Is that some sort of Forgotten Realms thing? If so, I'd prefer it not to be a core race.
Correct -- although I must note here that we never used those level limits for demihumans, because they felt very odd. And it's true that in BD&D all elves were essentially fighter/wizards (we *did* use the level limits and "attack levels" -- or whatever they were called back then -- in BD&D). The funny thing is that in AD&D we still had all-human parties...
Moon Elves are "Core Elves" in FR, so the only difference to current Pathfinder Core Elves is my suggestion to give them +2 DEX and +2 CHA (instead of +2 DEX and +2 INT) and the favoured class (bard).
Moon Elves are "Core Elves" in FR, so the only difference to current Pathfinder Core Elves is my suggestion to give them +2 DEX and +2 CHA (instead of +2 DEX and +2 INT) and the favoured class (bard).
I'm not sure how I feel about bard being their favored class -- although I could see it working out pretty well, especially if you change the gnomes' favored class back to illusionist (like in 1e, more or less). Certainly +2 Cha for elves would be more appropriate than +2 Int in that case.
Ok.
So essentially you would just have humans be. NO skill bonus, feat, etc.?
I'm beginning to favor the idea of embracing the human and half-elf +2 to any stat, but enforce the 18 max stat (at first level of course) for them. Basically their versatility lets them divert their strength to any one ability, but not beyond the "norm". So no 20 strength humans (or half-elves), or 20 cha sorcerers.
Then maybe they could put the -2 Cha back on half-orcs (where it belongs! - sorry half-orc players!)
AlBeddow, upon further thought I think you are taking to much stock in the fact that humans are considered norm.
Most likely the mental and physical comparisons are made to humans because of the fact that we can actually visualize/relate to these comparisions.
Also, for every fantasy reference to humans being the norm, they're just as many that state humans are fast learners, innovative, hardy, etc. All of this is supported by mechanics that offer extra skills, feats, etc.
Also, since this is a game, you have to offer the human player something or else there would be no incentive beyond roleplaying (which, admittedly is fine for some) to play a human. I would argue that the racial mechanics are a large part of the draw for any given race.
Again, I agree with you on the fact that the humans should not have the ability adjustment, but for different reasons.
Thanks for bringing up your concerns here as well, I am interested in what others may have to say 'bout humans.
Hmmmn.
Iteresting Ideas for sure.
I like the racial traits so far. So what if a player has 20 str or 20 Cha. A raging half orc barbarian with potion of bull strength is strength of 28 at first level.
I disagree with darkvision. I feel that only non playable races and drow should be able to have it. Players need to be afraid of the dark. The ability to inspire fear and horror requires what cannot be seen, what cannot be known.
What if the +2, +2, -2 adjustments to ability scores were dropped?
All races, except humans and 1/2 elves, would get a +2 to one ability score. I'd consider flipping the bonus for gnomes and halflings, but (for now) here goes:
Dwarves: CON +2
Elves: INT +2
Gnomes: WIS +2
Halflings: DEX +2
Half-Orcs: STR +2
Half-Elves: None
Humans: None
That way, each race would have a net +2 over humans (the norm).
To make up for this, humans and half-elves would get other goodies that the races that get bonuses don't. Also, the races that get an ability score bonus would have a hindrance that humans and half-elves don't.