Divine Identify?


Combat & Magic


With the changes in the domains and the Identify spell in the Alpha release, clerics no longer have access to Identify.

This was a domain spell allowed to those who took the Magic domain. However, in the Pathfinder release, there's no sign of Identify.

Instead, the 4th level ability gives clerics access to Magic Mouth. Magic Mouth does not exist on the cleric's spell list in the SRD. It's not allocated to them via a domain. This does not seem to make sense to take away something clerics could use for something they couldn't.

Is this something that can be examined and re-evaluated? I think it makes more sense to give the clerics, through the use of a domain, a way of dealing with magic items. And since it would come in at 4th level (currently), it would help allay the worries of those who may be like my current DM that calls me weasel for finding a way for a divine caster to cast Identify without the high cost that has been removed in the Alpha release anyway.

Thank you.


I agree that taking identify as a 2nd level cleric spell instead of a 1st level arcane spell is something the ferret from the Bud commercials would do.... :-)

but seriously, that's really not even close to being abusive for 3.5...

i don't think the loss of identify from the magic domain in alpha is going to break the cleric class either.

Personally, the loss of deity's favored weapon as a free feat for war domain will be missed as i usually prefer the warlike deities.


Praetor Gradivus wrote:
Personally, the loss of deity's favored weapon as a free feat for war domain will be missed as i usually prefer the warlike deities.

&

Pathfinder RPG, Alpha 1 wrote:

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Clerics are proficient

with all simple weapons, with all types of armor, and with
shields (except tower shields). Clerics are also proficient
with the favored weapon of their deities.

viola!


Majuba wrote:
Praetor Gradivus wrote:
Personally, the loss of deity's favored weapon as a free feat for war domain will be missed as i usually prefer the warlike deities.

&

Pathfinder RPG, Alpha 1 wrote:

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Clerics are proficient

with all simple weapons, with all types of armor, and with
shields (except tower shields). Clerics are also proficient
with the favored weapon of their deities.
viola!

Finally! The viola gets some respect! Down with the violin autocracy!

Seriously though, I think you're looking for the thread on bards. Did you know they're getting nerfed?


Praetor Gradivus wrote:

I agree that taking identify as a 2nd level cleric spell instead of a 1st level arcane spell is something the ferret from the Bud commercials would do.... :-)

but seriously, that's really not even close to being abusive for 3.5...

i don't think the loss of identify from the magic domain in alpha is going to break the cleric class either.

Personally, the loss of deity's favored weapon as a free feat for war domain will be missed as i usually prefer the warlike deities.

Normally, I would agree with you, but I had in mind my particular group that, right now, has no arcane caster (due to a mishap with some great cat that we suspect was of the dire variety) and the cleric of Boccob that relied on it until he met an untimely demise at the hands (fists?) of an earth elemental.

Regardless, why should a divine spell of great utility be taken away and replaced with a (dubious?) arcane spell?


tharian wrote:


Regardless, why should a divine spell of great utility be taken away and replaced with a (dubious?) arcane spell?

Because Identify no longer works as presented in the 3.5 SRD?

Check out pages 24 and 60 of the most recent version of the Alpha doc. Magic items are now id'd by casting Detect Magic and making a skill check (Appraise) and DC = 15 + the item's caster level. This does require that the identifying character has Appraise as a trained skill.

Identify just adds a +10 enhancement bonus to that check. Since the check is Int based, anything that enhances your Int bonus will enhance that check as well.


F33b wrote:
tharian wrote:


Regardless, why should a divine spell of great utility be taken away and replaced with a (dubious?) arcane spell?

Because Identify no longer works as presented in the 3.5 SRD?

Check out pages 24 and 60 of the most recent version of the Alpha doc. Magic items are now id'd by casting Detect Magic and making a skill check (Appraise) and DC = 15 + the item's caster level. This does require that the identifying character has Appraise as a trained skill.

Identify just adds a +10 enhancement bonus to that check. Since the check is Int based, anything that enhances your Int bonus will enhance that check as well.

That's all the more reason for the addition of the spell back to the Magic domain.

Though clerics already have Appraise as a trained skill, in general, most clerics will have a higher Wisdom than Intelligence. The use of the spell will give that subset of clerics a chance to be on par with the wizard when it comes to identifying items.


The main reason for identify being added to the Magic domain was that it allowed parties to identify items for free. Identify only has an Arcane material component; non-arcane versions require no material components. Now that any spellcaster can identify with a detect magic and a Take 20, there's not really any need.

PS. Yes, I know you can't technically Take 20 on an Appraise check to ID a magic item. You can just re-cast detect magic over and over until you do beat the DC, though, as long as you have the time to do so. It might take you a couple days, but there's zero risk to it. Eternal Wands of identify are now dramatically cheaper as well.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Zurai wrote:

The main reason for identify being added to the Magic domain was that it allowed parties to identify items for free. Identify only has an Arcane material component; non-arcane versions require no material components. Now that any spellcaster can identify with a detect magic and a Take 20, there's not really any need.

PS. Yes, I know you can't technically Take 20 on an Appraise check to ID a magic item. You can just re-cast detect magic over and over until you do beat the DC, though, as long as you have the time to do so. It might take you a couple days, but there's zero risk to it. Eternal Wands of identify are now dramatically cheaper as well.

If that was the reason for doing it, why not simply remove the cost for the wizards? I mean, the fact that the clerics can class feature into a Wizard spell and do it for free (better then a wizard ever could, even) to me...just...reeks.

If it was important enough to be done so it was possible without a cost, why not just change the dang spell in the first place.


The version of the spell in the Alpha release has been changed to remove the cost. However, that doesn't change the fact that what was possible in the 3.5 SRD is now no longer possible for clerics with the Magic domain.

Regardless of the cost of the spell or the changes in how the Appraise skill works, not all groups will have an arcane caster in a party for whatever reason, be it thematic or preference.

This just reminds me of discussions in 2nd Ed that asked why clerics did not have access to Permanency when they made magic items. I'd rather not go down that road.

Instead, suffice it to say that "Just use an arcane caster" may not be the solution that actually works for some groups.


tharian wrote:

The version of the spell in the Alpha release has been changed to remove the cost. However, that doesn't change the fact that what was possible in the 3.5 SRD is now no longer possible for clerics with the Magic domain.

Regardless of the cost of the spell or the changes in how the Appraise skill works, not all groups will have an arcane caster in a party for whatever reason, be it thematic or preference.

This just reminds me of discussions in 2nd Ed that asked why clerics did not have access to Permanency when they made magic items. I'd rather not go down that road.

Instead, suffice it to say that "Just use an arcane caster" may not be the solution that actually works for some groups.

My "group" is in this exact situation. I am playing a solo campaign with my wife using the Pathfinder rules and the duo is composed of a cleric of Osprem and a rogue. No arcane spellcaster in sight! ;)


tharian wrote:
The version of the spell in the Alpha release has been changed to remove the cost. However, that doesn't change the fact that what was possible in the 3.5 SRD is now no longer possible for clerics with the Magic domain.

I don't quite see what the problem is. The spell Identify is fairly useless (since the DC to identify an item with Appraise is so low), so any cleric is almost as good at identifying magic items as a wizard. Even a 1st-level cleric with 8 Int can identify items of caster level 8 or less, and a simple Guidance orison increases that to level 9 or less.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Shrug. Almost is good leave a lot to be questioned. A wizard with identify, can cast two spells (0 and 1st level) and identify up to caster level 5 by taking 10 with 100% success. The cleric is going to have only a 5% chance per casting of detect magic to get the same CL 5 item.

If you really plan on having your cleric identify items, you probably should think of investing in a wand of detect magic. Or all of your 0/1 levels slots to detect magic and make a day of it.

The question doesn't really matter to me. Clerics only had access to it through a single domain. I don't see it unbalancing to remove it, even if it makes the domain less potent money saver.


Maezer wrote:


If you really plan on having your cleric identify items, you probably should think of investing in a wand of detect magic. Or all of your 0/1 levels slots to detect magic and make a day of it.

In Pathfinder, you can cast a 0-level spell as often as you want. The "slots" only indicate which 0-level spells you can use that day.

So "taking 20" is easy enough (as long as you're not in combat).

Dark Archive

hogarth wrote:


In Pathfinder, you can cast a 0-level spell as often as you want. The "slots" only indicate which 0-level spells you can use that day.

So "taking 20" is easy enough (as long as you're not in combat).

Even that won't be necessary as 2nd level clerics with the magic domain are able to use detect magic at will (which is kind of weak, imho, since any cleric could do so by using one of his orison slots for detect magic). If he had gotten identify he would be able to use it CL/2 times per day (which I would have prefered, since considering every cleric could do so the detect magic at will is rather weak).

Sovereign Court

Maybe they want classes to have a schtick, for arcane its identify


Jadeite wrote:


Even that won't be necessary as 2nd level clerics with the magic domain are able to use detect magic at will (which is kind of weak, imho, since any cleric could do so by using one of his orison slots for detect magic). If he had gotten identify he would be able to use it CL/2 times per day (which I would have prefered, since considering every cleric could do so the detect magic at will is rather weak).

I agree the level 2 Magic domain ability is pretty weak. I think identify level/2 times per day would be pretty weak, too. Maybe Mage Hand at will? Or Unseen Servant level/2 per day?

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