I tend to agree with a slight nerf for sneak attack damage, as well as an attack bonus. The earlier proposition of reducing it to a total of +5d6 with extra attack bonus is pretty good, but I prefer the house rule we've been using, which just limits sneak attack to one attack per round. Doesn't change the action it takes, mind you, it's still just an attack so you can take your extra attacks from BAB/TWF/Whatever, you just don't get the extra dice on all of them. You get to choose which attack it applies to after you've been told hit or miss, so it's not wasted like a smite and you can still do it every round. This puts a sneak attack focused rogue about on par with the rest of the party hitters, in my experience.
While my rogue players are sure to strangle me for this... I conceded that limiting Sneak Attack (as rewrite in Pathfinder Alpha 1.1) to one attack per round is a reasonable suggestion (as already put forward). I also agree with the idea of adding Combat Maneuver feats to increase that limit. It also begins to hamper the effectiveness of Two-Weapon Sneak Flurries. This would now take at least 5 extra feats(assuming no perquisites that limit this) to get the full six sneak attacks. Eight feats is a rather high commitment, even with the rogue's possible 12(13) feats.
This type of change has the least impact and is revisable into other Sneak Attack using classes, which almost always reference the Rogue's Sneak Attack. This also spills over into Sudden Strike, although I'm not sure it passes on to Skirmish. The best part is Paizo doesn't even have to say anything about non-Paizo products for that to work.
My little inner min/maxer is saying most TWF Sneak Rogues will stop at Two-Weapon fighting and an extra sneak attack, just two feats. The focus will shift to slash and dash rogues on spring attack.
On a personal level I don't really feel the need for a change in sneak attack, I'm content with the way it is (multiple attacks and all). However it seems enough people are concerned at a compromise is in-order.
In my game group (both the one i DM in and the one i play in) we limit sneak attack to once per round. It must be declared before the attack is rolled and all other attacks are normal. We also allow sneak attacks on undead on constructs (with ranks in knowledge arcana and knowledge undead) since its not so much hitting a vital organ as hitting a weak spot. However the time it takes to spot and hit such a spot is such that doing it more than once per round is not possible.
Sneak attack still does a lot of damage, but is no longer broken and the rogue gets the ability to sneak attack other entities with a bit of study. Might not fit in all campaigns but it has worked well in ours.
Course, this doesn't stop the spring attack rogues from running in, sneak attacking, then dashing behind the fighter ;) Then again, in that situation he's not sneak attacking more than once anyway.
My thoughts.
I completely agree that sneak attack should be limited to only one attack per round for balance sake.
While I like that Alpha rules allow sneak attack to work against undead and constructs, I however don't agree that it should work to its full effectiveness vs such creatures.
I feel its more balanced and flavorful for corporeal undead and constructs only take half the extra damage from the sneak attack dice. Feats could be later obtained in order to have sneak attack deliver full damage to those creature types.
Instead of making sneak attack work against constructs and undead,
I would go the other way round and just rethink with creatures can be affected by critical strikes at all!
Constructs and corporal undead for instance. Why not. A critical strike is not necessarily a strike to the vital parts or something but may only be a "perfect" hit.
Course, this doesn't stop the spring attack rogues from running in, sneak attacking, then dashing behind the fighter ;) Then again, in that situation he's not sneak attacking more than once anyway.
See, I actually would like sneak attack to be more like this than just another way to stand and full attack but different from a fighter's.
I agree with the cap of one sneak attack per round, but I also want to get rid of iterative attacks so, to me, it doesn't really change much.
I also agree with the idea of not making virtually everything immune to sneak attack, it's already boring enough to have one and just one combat ability, it becomes a joke if I can't really use it.
I must agree to the last two posters here.
As a side note, I think Sneak Attack, Smite and Favored Enemy should all be streamlined the best way in can be.
Those are all ready pretty damn simple. And sneak attack is fine as is, but I wouldn't mind if it was just one attack a round, none of this turning it into a feat BS.
Those are all ready pretty damn simple. And sneak attack is fine as is, but I wouldn't mind if it was just one attack a round, none of this turning it into a feat BS.I agree that it belongs properly as a class ability (maybe an optional choice for a Ranger as well, but I don't want random Paladins wandering around with Sneak Attack), though a Feat that enhances their Sneak Attack wouldn't be out of the question.
There were a few in Complete Scoundrel and Complete Warrior.
What about plants? should plants be critable if they aren't humanoid?
Yes, think of Sneak Attack as a way of placing a hit where it can do the most damage.
Contruct-A chink in its armor, striking the cogs of a Clock Work one etc.
Undead-Nailing them in a place that causes the body to fall to peice or where it will shatter bones
Plants-Same as the Construct.
I'm on the sneak attack applying only on the first hit board.
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We house ruled this a long time ago simply to cut down on the die rolling!
I tend to run 'sneaky bastard' types more than anything and even I agreed to it.
After we ported over to AU's generic classes and most of the characters picked up some level of sneak attack we revised the ruling and came up with this:
Normal conditions for making a sneak attack apply. Flanking, denied Dex bonus to AC, etc.
Sneak Attack only counts on your first attack in the round.
If the sneak attack is the only attack you make in the round you get +4 to the attack. You must declare this before making the attack.
We removed most of the restrictions on what could be sneak attacked.
'If it bleeds it can be killed.'
This change has cut the amount of die rolling down and removed a bottleneck in the flow of combat. The rogue gets more targets that qualify for a sneak attack and gets a chance to make that sneak attack REALLY count. I've adapted my style of play by not trying to stay up front with the fighters. Now I've become a hit and run guerrilla fighter who sneaks up on the weaker or most damaged foe and drops them.
Works out pretty good for us. Of course your results may vary.
SM
Some things that came to my mind regarding Sneaj Attacks:
* Making a Sneak Attack is a Standard attack action (-> SA only when attacking once in a round; No full attack)
* +4 if target is unaware of you
* Critical hits don't need confirmation roll
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What about plants? should plants be critable if they aren't humanoid?Yes, think of Sneak Attack as a way of placing a hit where it can do the most damage.
Contruct-A chink in its armor, striking the cogs of a Clock Work one etc.
Undead-Nailing them in a place that causes the body to fall to peice or where it will shatter bones
Plants-Same as the Construct.
Okay now tell me where on a tree or shambling mound you would know that would do the most damage, I can see it on constructs, where they have vital internal moving parts or humanoid shapes, and I can see it on corporeal undead, but I just don't see it on non-humanoid plants (I can see it on humanoid plants like the battlebriar and the thorn).
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From a flavor perspective, a fighter's combat ability is like that of a highly-trained martial artist. You can know they're there, be totally focused on them, and they're STILL going to kick your ass. A rogue is like a craven, dirty street fighter who waits until you're distracted and then slits your jugular with a straight razor, dangles your coin pouch in front of your eyes as you breathe your last while taunting you with how weak and stupid you are, and then spits on your twitching corpse. In short, fighters are good at fighting, rogues are good at fighting DIRTY. They're opportunistic, conniving, and ruthless as opposed to a fighter's more tactical, aggressive, and skillful approach. Also, a fighter facing off against multiple opponents will probably be fine. He's got lots of hit points, a high armor class, a shield, and a big, nasty weapon like a longsword or battleaxe. If he gets surrounded, he chuckles grimly and starts racking up notches with his cleave feat. After all, his key abilities are strength and constitution, and those dictate his approach to combat. He can dish out and take loads of punishment. A rogue who gets surrounded is hosed. He probably feints and takes down one enemy before the others cut him to ribbons. His key abilities are dexterity and intelligence, which means he's smart enough to know where the weak points are and coordinated enough to hit them, given the opportunity, but that's a very focused style of combat and is much better-suited to single-target elimination. But that's okay. He knows he's in trouble if he gets surrounded, so, if he's smart, he takes precautions against it. He's got stealth and acrobatics and can escape from or outmaneuver a superior fighting force and either escape or adopt a short-term hit-and-run method of fighting and THEN escape. He'll just come back when they're sleeping and kill them later anyway. The fighter is, well, a fighter. The rogue is a killer.
I'm fine with the rules being as they are in alpha 1. That seems about right. The fighter maytake longer to get through that mob of 25 enemies, but he'll still be alive at the end. The rogue on the other hand, can kill a strong foe with a hit or two, but if he gets rushed, he's dead.
And both work better when working together than separately. The rogue & fighter againsta big boss with a mob of smaller minions can fight the encounter in such a way as to maximize their strengths. The fighter can screen the rogue from the little guys and then distract the big bad long enough for the rogue to put his rapier through the thing's kidney, spleen, heart, lung, and spine all in one vicious swordstroke.
Our group house-ruled a limit of sneak-attacks.
In a full round attack, the sneak attack occurs on the first successful hit.
This rule still allows for sneak attacks in AoOs, but limits it to once per round on a regular turn. It also keeps the sneak attack from being lost completely if the first attack is a miss. It covers iterative attacks as well as off-hand and double weapons.