I'm sure we're all familiar with some of the problems posed by the Druid. Most of the 'overpowering' aspects of the class lies in it's wild shape ability. However, just taking away the ability will be needless sacrifice of a sacred cow that I'm sure many of us have fond memories of.
My suggestion is a small change to the way wild shape and the druid in general works. Rather than just being a very static class as they are now, I suggest a movement more towards the current Pathfinder wizard and cleric with 'domains' called totems.
Each totem would be linked to a particular animal or animal type (cat, wolf, bear, elemental, plant, etc) and would give small minor abilities based on the Druid's level with the Druid being able to choose several over the course of their career. Dependant on the 'power' of the creature the totem represented, the Druid would gain Wild Shape at different points but would only be able to wild shape into animals whose totems the Druid had gained the Wild Shape ability in. For example, the Rat totem may give the ability to change into a rat at level 4, but the bear totem would only let the Druid change into a bear at level 9 regardless of if the Druid had already gained Wild Shape in another totem.
Obviously this would have to be worked with a bit, and the actual other abilities in the totem 'trees' carefully balanced. I think the idea has a lot of potential, though. It may allow for some of the problems with 3.5 Druids to be fixed, and at the same time allow for slightly more flavorful druids.
Interesting . . .
I'd like to see the metal armor restruction toned down or removed. Possibly it prevents wild shape but no other handicap.
Mike
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This sort of put me in mind of old Werewolf the Apocalypse- and I like it. I would very much enjoy a shamanistic type druid with a strong link to the spirit world- maybe an ability to step over into the spirit world. Spells and powers would be granted by spirits (rather than a generic force of nature) after an agreement has been reached- besting them in combat, riddles, performing a service, a favor at a later date, shows of respect whatever the case might be. Not that these need to be played out for every new ability gained, but it gives you a more unique idea about the path to power as a druid. I also like the idea of spirits with varying agendas working to alter the path of druids in the world by tempting them with power in exchange for deeds so that a man of weaker character risks becoming a pawn of forces beyond his understanding... Spirits crossing over to the real world in the form of animals to bargain with or advise druids...
Anyways- I don't know how much change the designers are looking for, but I kinda liked Hammith's idea and that's what it made me think of.
What about just standardizing the old PHBII variant?
Doesn't that kind of solve everything?The only thing that I want to see beyond that is every class (except the commoner and monk, perhaps) gaining proficiency with all simple weapons.
If Paizo can do that it would be nice, but we are assuming the options of PB2 are usable. I like both options for Druids actually.
I've played the Shapeshift variant from PHBII quite a bit and found it to be an excellent alternative - removing both the spell casting in 'wildshape' and the troublsome animal companion.
Even if the book itself is not open content, the rule can serve as an excellent example for something similar.
I hope they make the PHBII variant a bit more interesting found the variant a bit boring. All so please let me keep my damn Animal Companion.
Uh how about no. Natural Spell was one of the most over powering things about the Druid. And believe me, even without Natural Spell a Wild Shaped Druid is still a beast to contend with.
I've played the Shapeshift variant from PHBII quite a bit and found it to be an excellent alternative - removing both the spell casting in 'wildshape' and the troublsome animal companion.
I've never understood the desire to remove the animal companion.
To me, the animal companion aspect of the druid has always been the largest and most appealing aspect of the druid . . . well above the wildshape or spellcasting.
I thought the prestige class . . packmaster or whatever it was . . that allowed for multiple animal companions was by far the best step in the right direction for how the druid class should progress. In my games, the shapeshift feature from PHBII doesn't remove thr Animal Companion, there's no need.
I've played the Shapeshift variant from PHBII quite a bit and found it to be an excellent alternative - removing both the spell casting in 'wildshape' and the troublsome animal companion.I've never understood the desire to remove the animal companion.
To me, the animal companion aspect of the druid has always been the largest and most appealing aspect of the druid . . . well above the wildshape or spellcasting.
I thought the prestige class . . packmaster or whatever it was . . that allowed for multiple animal companions was by far the best step in the right direction for how the druid class should progress. In my games, the shapeshift feature from PHBII doesn't remove thr Animal Companion, there's no need.
Alot of people didn't like the Animal Companion for a few reasons it replaced the fighter (lets face it just about everything could in 3.5 and it still looks like it in PRPG), it gave one player more time on thier turns.
I think a full tank replacement is really a bit too much.
I like the idea of a loyal dog (in fact a wolf) or raven, that acompanies the druid and can stay with its master when combat arises, but a completely buffed dire bear with the size and strength of an elephant teeth like daggers does kind of steal the show from other martial characters.
If the animal companion could be a bit closer to familiars, I would really like that. Though as said, they should still be able to bite the ogre in the leg without having to face instant death in one hit.
Now I've had problem with Druid PCs before, mainly its hard me to plan anything since he has large area spells that just reak havoc on mass fighting. I'm still a bit peeved him and his finger of death spell which killed my pit fiend in the second round...stupid 1s....
Anyways honestly though, he is certainly formidable in many respects. A dire tiger companion, a handful of decent spells, and elemental wildshape. But then again he's 19th level, so he supposed to be.
But I don't really find it overpowered in comparison with other characters though, except the poor fighter, monk, and bard...The casting ability in wildshape is most certainly not a problem especially since it costs a feat that can't be taken until 6th level...a level after a druid gains the ability wildshape.
As for the PHB2 variant, it is not OGC and not applicable as a choice. But I didn't like it anyways. It lacked the versatile use of wildshape, outside of combat that is. Many a druid often used the wildshape to spy and not just for combat. Actually often I found druids in my groups used wildshape to get out of combat directly usually buffing either their animal companion or other party members while they kept a somewhat ambigious nature.
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Interesting . . .
I'd like to see the metal armor restruction toned down or removed. Possibly it prevents wild shape but no other handicap.
Mike
Yeah but if the Druid goes Technological...He/She can have steam Pistols, Rifles, Canons, Mortars - as long as you have a heat metal spell you have steamtech. Totems might make it good as a primitive class but it has the ability to go modern - Giving up Totems and Wildshape might be required to get access to Metal Armour and Steamtech.
I dont know off hand what civilization in Galorian would be currently dominated by Druids capable of Going down the steamtech path though.
Perhaps the Totemless Goblins...with a Scrounger Prestiege class (it pretty much amounts to the ability a Goblin to add its Appraise Ranks to a Spot Skill check). They might have picked up all sorts of things and squirlled them away in GreatWarren.
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I thought the prestige class . . packmaster or whatever it was . . that allowed for multiple animal companions was by far the best step in the right direction for how the druid class should progress. In my games, the shapeshift feature from PHBII doesn't remove thr Animal Companion, there's no need.
I never entirely forgave 3.5 for taking my normal menagerie away from my 3.0 druid and forcing him to a single "super-pet".
I like the totem idea for wild shape a lot. As long as it's controlled (any effect like that solely based on the druids HD vs. the animal's is clearly broken)
As for the animal companion, I honestly would lose a lot of interest in pathfinder were that taken away. It was one of the few upgrades between 3 and 3.5 that I actually apprectiated. I've built entire characters around it.
Anyway, since people seem to have such a problem with wildshape being broken, why not split the druid into two classes? As in, one caster class w/ an animal companion (call it a mystic or something), and one hybrid class with less spellcasting, but who has wildshape (call it a shaman or something).
I agree that wildshaping druids should be different from casting druids--the shifter variant in the PHB II could be a good model for this.
Yeah, that's not a bad idea at all. Forcing them to specialize could fix a lot of problems.
I like where we are going. Here is an option
Beastmaster: a druid who specializes in training and fighting with a animal companion (i would imagine a seriously nerfed druid, 1d6 hitpoints, no summons, no wildshape, but a very nasty animal guardian with familiar qualities.)
Shifter: a druid using the PHB2 variant 1d8 hitpoints or +1 hitpoint per level bonus, no animal companion, no summons with maybe more progression with each form (a additional bonus ability for previous forms every time a new form is added. maybe slightly nerfed spell casting )
Caller: a druid specialized in using the wilderness as a weapon. 1d6 hitpoints, no animal companion, no wild shape, but can summon at +2 caster level, and all animals summoned gain special qualities based on druid level and feats gained (maybe at 4th level all attacks made by the summoned creatures are treated as magic, and feats can be taken to make them cold iron, or silvered etc etc, maybe bonus spells
I would like to see these as packages that a druid must chose between at first level
I'm actually kinda fond of the Diablo II druid build. There are three skills to develop: elemental spellcasting, shapeshifting, or summoning (animals and spirits). I'd like to see the druid specialize in one area with the other areas less skilled, or if he wants to genralize, tone the powers down a bit. Sorta like wizard schools.
One thing I have always done with the wildshape ability is to restrict its use to the druids body - no clothes, no equiment. It had made my druid layers think twice about where to use this ability and leave their equipment lying around. (Actually I've also done this to polymorph spells as well)
That is the standard rule. Magic items can be removed then worn.
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Umm... no it's not.
Any gear worn or carried by the druid melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When the druid reverts to her true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on her body that they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items worn in the assumed form fall off and land at the druid's feet.
Under his house rule clothing and items would drop in a ring around the druid when he or she became an animal or whatever. If you went that way it seems more likely the clothing would be ripped and shredded unless the druid became a smaller creature. Then you'd have a goat struggling to get out of a pair of pants.
Don't really like that idea, but I do like the specialization paths mentioned above.
I always felt that everything out of animal materials should meld into the new form (leather, bone, hides, twines made of guts, etc.).
So does Plant material but this perhaps only if taken the appropriate feat (Plant shaping or something)
This totem idea has merit.
The issues seem to lie around wildshape/natural spell/animal companions.
The totems could resolve all these issues.
They could determine what animals etc you may turn into, what spells you could cast in wildshape and what companions you can choose in a similar style to cleric domains.
Perhaps you start with 1 (or maybe 2) totem(s) and get one every 5 levels for example. When high enough for flying/elemental forms a selection of those totems become available.
e.g. for flight choose from owl/eagle/raven totems
e.g. for elemental choose fire/air/water/earth
Again for these maybe you get another choice in 5 levels or so.
In this way no two druids will be exactly alike and you can style your character to the totems that suit your playing style.
Why don't we actually look at the new druid on Tuesday or Wednesday before we start suggesting fixes? Jason may have beaten us to the punch, y'know...
Agreed, I believe I was offering further constructive discussion to this development. Although I was not aware druids were that imminent...
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Why don't we actually look at the new druid on Tuesday or Wednesday before we start suggesting fixes? Jason may have beaten us to the punch, y'know...Agreed, I believe I was offering further constructive discussion to this development. Although I was not aware druids were that imminent...
I'm not trying to shut anyone up or down, as it were, but wouldn't it make more sense until we see what Paizo's done? FYI, I think the druid's going to have wildshape based off of the new beast shape spells. Check out the last page of the Alpha Release 2, when? thread.
Awesome, I have just started playing a druid and am about to get wildshape so looking forward to the developments. Thanks for the heads up on the druid info.