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Ok, I'm going to ask this in all seriousness now:
Do we really HAVE to have Bards?
I mean, I understand the whole genre and the inpirational stuff and all that, but even in the most ridiculous circumstances what kind of dolt is going to sit in the middle of battle playing music to inspire and uplift everyone.
I understand we want to keep some backwards compatability. Yes, I really get it. But Bards suck. They just really, really, really suck.
So I have a proposal: Change the bard from the lame musical pest of the D&D world into some kind of Skill Based Class.
Give this class some features that could, if you so choose, select Bardic abilities. But there should be other options so you can do something else; and this is where it may fit with Gnomes quite well.
Give other options to them, such as improved crafting skills, boosted knowledges, tactical awareness, etc.
You could give them optional features similar to the rogue, where they can pick certain class features every few levels that give them interesting abilities.
But instead of purely focusing on music or performance, you could also have technicians who are excellent crafters, and possibly able to spot weakenesses in structures or armor or enemy creatures. Gadgeteers or inventors, for example. You could have some that focus on creating magic items, fulfilling some of the requests for a "tinkerer" class I've seen.
You could have historians or researchers who can grant bonuses to allies to deal with certain foes or situations.
Keep the magic too; I've got no problem with that at all. I just think this whole music/performance focus is idiotic.
Now, I see where this might have a little more overlap with Rogues, but this revised bard should have totally different class options. They can still focus on buffing the party, but there should be other options, such as more tactical skills, advising the party, understanding weaknesses in foes, etc, etc.
You could still use the "bardic music" mechanic, but call it something else, perhaps some kind of "expertise" or "insightful skill" use per day and the class features you select give you totally different uses for it.
The lore-master type could use knowledge checks and shout out instructions on how to spot weaknesses or handle dangerous foes or monsters: A good check could grant bonuses to hit and damage to all allies.
In effect they could loosely pick up some of the Marshal abilities from the Miniatures handbook as well.
Ok, I'm getting redundant here, so I'll wait for more comments.
I just really hate the bard as is, and it is in dire need of an overhaul, especially as it's supposed to be the Gnome favored class.
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Ok, I'm trying to think up what a 3.Pf "Bard" should be with my proposal.
I'd change the class name to something like Expert. I'm sure there are better names available, but that's all I've got for now.
Obviously the HD would bump to a d8 with the mid-BAB.
Six skill points seems fine to start, but there will be class features to expand on this.
The spells are fine, for now.
Bardic Knowledge is good, although it may need to be renamed.
The big change is in the features Bardic Music, Countersong, and all that stuff.
At this point the Expert could pick their class path based on a Skill or Skill Type.
A Bard would work pretty similar to the original bard. Your skill of choice would be Perform, and you'd follow an inpiration/fascination type path.
A Tactician would use some kind of knowledge of combat; formerly history, but perhaps another is needed. They would gain abilities similar to those of a marshal, all based on checks with their knowledge skill.
A Tinkerer would pick engineering profession and/or craft skills, and be able to spot weaknesses in armor and/or create items of exceptional quality. They may even get Craft magic item type abilities.
An Alchemist could have exception expertise with, well, alchemy, and also be able to make potions, know about poisons, etc.
An Explorer might have some scout tpe features, being able to spot for a party, and have exceptional knowledge of creatures in the wild.
These are just ideas I'm throwing out there on the fly; need more input.
Perhaps every 5th level an Expert could pick a new skill to focus on, expanding their abilities and the bonuses they can confer to allies. Those bonuses won't advance as well as their initial pick, but You could start with an old-school musical bard who also expands some of his knowledge out to history and tactical combat moves.
Bards are one of the most powerful classes in 3.5; they just aren't very "me" friendly. They dramatically improve the power of their party members (seriously, using just fairly mainstream sourcebooks you can get inspire courage up to +7 to hit/+7 to damage, which translates into +21 damage/attack for Power Attackers - and if you add the Book of Exalted Deeds into the mix, it's possible to double that, depending on rules interpretations), but without serious effort it's hard for them to seriously improve their own fighting prowess. It IS possible, but it's a lot harder than making viable characters of most other classes and usually requires intelligent multiclassing.
The only thing I want to see from Pathfinder RPG's Bard is, perhaps, an expansion of available bardic music effects and an explicit OK to use any Perform skill to initiate them (the PHB and SRD are vague on the point of whether, for example, Perform: Dance can be used for bardic 'music').
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I'm not saying drop bards or their mechanics at all: I just think the whole music/performance specific aspect is too narrow and sort of lame.
I would like to see them expand into a more insight, knowledge, and skill-driven class, but without the specific subterfuge focus of Rogues.
People have been asking for tactical fighters, marshals, and artificers. Expanding the bard could accomodate all of those, and make a less absurd base class.
Please read all of what I'm proposing rather than jumping to the defense of the bard: I'm not trying to eliminate them or do away with any of their mechanics, just make them better and more sensible.
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Bards are one of the most powerful classes in 3.5; they just aren't very "me" friendly. They dramatically improve the power of their party members (seriously, using just fairly mainstream sourcebooks you can get inspire courage up to +7 to hit/+7 to damage, which translates into +21 damage/attack for Power Attackers - and if you add the Book of Exalted Deeds into the mix, it's possible to double that, depending on rules interpretations), but without serious effort it's hard for them to seriously improve their own fighting prowess. It IS possible, but it's a lot harder than making viable characters of most other classes and usually requires intelligent multiclassing.
The only thing I want to see from Pathfinder RPG's Bard is, perhaps, an expansion of available bardic music effects and an explicit OK to use any Perform skill to initiate them (the PHB and SRD are vague on the point of whether, for example, Perform: Dance can be used for bardic 'music').
Why does it *have* to be 'perform'? Why not a keen knowledge, tactical awareness, or careful analysis?
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I mean, I understand the whole genre and the inpirational stuff and all that, but even in the most ridiculous circumstances what kind of dolt is going to sit in the middle of battle playing music to inspire and uplift everyone.What dolt is going to sit there and pray while a ten-foot-tall monstrosity is swinging a club at them that's bigger than they are? What dolt is going to spend years focusing their mind in order to be able to spontaneously conjure blades of energy?
Answer: Someone who gets results from it.
If you don't like the bard, that's fine, but it makes no less sense than any other class, and considerably more than some, and the only "suck" aspect of the class is that their primary ability is to buff others rather than personally shine. It's a skills class (look at their skill selection and skill points per level) with a lot of support abilities. It's the toolbox, and groups that dislike bards generally have no use for half the skills in the game anyway (Profession, Knowledge, and Craft come to mind).
Note: I'm not speaking against that style of play, but I'm pointing it out - if it goes against your style of play, don't use the class.
This is not true. The bard makes far less sense than most classes, as is.
I like the idea of a heavily skill driven character outside of simply woodsmen (rangers) or scoundrels (rogues), and with the availabilty of strong party buffs. I just don't think it should be arbitrarily limited to song and dance.
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I like the idea of a heavily skill driven character outside of simply woodsmen (rangers) or scoundrels (rogues), and with the availabilty of strong party buffs. I just don't think it should be arbitrarily limited to song and dance.
It's not limited to song and dance. It's limited to Perform. The only perform skill explicitely unusable for bardic music would be weapon drill from Complete Warrior. Who can easily create a bard using speeches (oratory) or buffoonery (comedy) to inspire his comrades.
I think Bards are fine the way they are. They don't seem out of place or strange in the way they operate. How many people use music to amp themselves up for a workout? I for one can really have my mood adjusted by music. Music during combat, sure a bit off but I look at it this way, not only does the music get me amp'd up but if I'm fighting and look over at my friend who is putting himself in danger playing to get me amp'd up that's just going to make me fight all the harder. If it not your style that fine change it, but I don't think its an inherent issue with the class per se. The class is just set up for a certain style just like a standard Cleric is set up for a specific play style.
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It's not limited to song and dance. It's limited to Perform. The only perform skill explicitely unusable for bardic music would be weapon drill from Complete Warrior. Who can easily create a bard using speeches (oratory) or buffoonery (comedy) to inspire his comrades.
I like the idea of a heavily skill driven character outside of simply woodsmen (rangers) or scoundrels (rogues), and with the availabilty of strong party buffs. I just don't think it should be arbitrarily limited to song and dance.
Understood. I just don't think that's enough to build an entire base class around.
I want it to be a class path choice, as completely eliminating Bards is blasphemy of the highest order.
I just don't think they should be as common as they are intended, nor their own specific base class.
I'd rather see a party-buff type class with a strong focus on skills and aiding in tactical moves for his allies that could pick a bardic music path if that's what they're into, but could just as easily be a master craftsman, tactician, adventuring gadgeteer, or expert researcher.
How many stories have you read where the knowledge of weaknesses and of tactical movements of some type of leader have saved the day? It shouldn't all be about performing. That's not enough to base a viable class around. Someone who's an expert in various skills and nehances their abilities with subtle magic? That's a good base for a class, and the bardic abilities should be one choice under that class.
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Understood. I just don't think that's enough to build an entire base class around.I want it to be a class path choice, as completely eliminating Bards is blasphemy of the highest order.
I just don't think they should be as common as they are intended, nor their own specific base class.
I'd rather see a party-buff type class with a strong focus on skills and aiding in tactical moves for his allies that could pick a bardic music path if that's what they're into, but could just as easily be a master craftsman, tactician, adventuring gadgeteer, or expert researcher.
How many stories have you read where the knowledge of weaknesses and of tactical movements of some type of leader have saved the day? It shouldn't all be about performing. That's not enough to base a viable class around. Someone who's an expert in various skills and nehances their abilities with subtle magic? That's a good base for a class, and the bardic abilities should be one choice under that class.
But bard's already have special research powers. They have all Knowledge Skills as classskills and also bardic knowledge. If you want a character like Indiana Jones bards are the way to go. They even have whip proficiency. If you want a advantage over creatures by knowing their weaknesses, there is the Knowledge Devotion from Complete Champion, allowing you to gain bonuses on damage and attack rolls against creatures you identified with your knowledge skills.
The Dragonlance book War of the Lance has a new base class called Master, which should fit the class you imagine. They specialize on either Craft, Knowledge, Perform and Profession, gaining special abilities. They are not able to cast spells, though.
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Meh, I like the bard. I'd like to see a little boost with his special abilities and spell choices/powers but overall, it's a fun class. I have one guy playing in a game now and he's done a good job utilizing his talents to great effect both in combat and in skill situations.
I can't say that I like the notion of blending the class with these other ideas, that's not what the bard is. I see where you're going with the Expert but I think Alchemist and Tinkerer/Artificer could be their own classes. I don't see a bard really having tactical knowledge that would be useful in a dungeon crawl kind of game. Maybe in a large battle or siege, he could quote verbatim from ancient history texts about famous general So-and-so who won using tactics that could be applied at present or something.
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I love bards, and I love it when people complain that they suck.
They suck, because you don't know how to play them. It's that simple.
Bards are support characters, just like clerics. They don't "play music" to amp up their buddies (unless they're played by a baboon) they sing songs of glory, or recite epic poems of heroic battle.
There's tons of mythological support for that kind of behavior. Read some books of Celtic mythology.
After their buffing abilities, they get "know something about everything."
That's not "cast a spell to know something about everything" that's "know something about everything." Don't let your DM short-change you here. This can be a great ability.
They have spells... they have lots of skills... they even fight okay.
They can fill (as a weak stop-gap) almost any role in the party, but they're great as a fifth wheel when the party already has all of the regular bases covered.
I'm looking forward to seeing what Pathfinder has in store for them. I hope there's not much change, just enhancement.
Just because you don't like a class doesn't mean it sucks. It just means you should play something else.
If I was in a life-or-death fight, and one of my compatriots started singing a song to "amp me up", I'm pretty sure I'd punch them in the face afterwards, if I survived.
As why would you do this? When he sings you get a benifit that at times equals the Wizards magic. Do you punch the wizard in the face when he reads his books to learn his magic? If you don't like the flavor that's fine. Some people do. I would say in stead of changing a class the works mechanically and has the right flavor for some, I would work on a class that fits the idea and flavor that your looking for. Other posters have offered good suggestions.
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Meh, I like the bard. I'd like to see a little boost with his special abilities and spell choices/powers but overall, it's a fun class. I have one guy playing in a game now and he's done a good job utilizing his talents to great effect both in combat and in skill situations.
I can't say that I like the notion of blending the class with these other ideas, that's not what the bard is. I see where you're going with the Expert but I think Alchemist and Tinkerer/Artificer could be their own classes. I don't see a bard really having tactical knowledge that would be useful in a dungeon crawl kind of game. Maybe in a large battle or siege, he could quote verbatim from ancient history texts about famous general So-and-so who won using tactics that could be applied at present or something.
So far you're about the only one who's actually read what I wrote. Thanks you.
Your objection is valid. Thus my point of selecting skill paths to focus on; a traditional bard would pick perform and get all the inspiration abilities it entails.
A different type of expert or master would select a different skill, and be able to offer somewhat different bonuses to his or her allies.
As the character advances, because they're a knowledge based character, they pick up other skills they're excellent with, but never as good as their old skills. Similar to how a Ranger gets favored enemies, or the new fighter for 3.pf 1.1 gets weapon training.
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If I was in a life-or-death fight, and one of my compatriots started singing a song to "amp me up", I'm pretty sure I'd punch them in the face afterwards, if I survived.As why would you do this? When he sings you get a benifit that at times equals the Wizards magic. Do you punch the wizard in the face when he reads his books to learn his magic? If you don't like the flavor that's fine. Some people do. I would say in stead of changing a class the works mechanically and has the right flavor for some, I would work on a class that fits the idea and flavor that your looking for. Other posters have offered good suggestions.
I think you've missed my sarcastic point, but that's ok.
I think Bards are fine the way they are. They don't seem out of place or strange in the way they operate. How many people use music to amp themselves up for a workout? I for one can really have my mood adjusted by music. Music during combat, sure a bit off but I look at it this way, not only does the music get me amp'd up but if I'm fighting and look over at my friend who is putting himself in danger playing to get me amp'd up that's just going to make me fight all the harder. If it not your style that fine change it, but I don't think its an inherent issue with the class per se. The class is just set up for a certain style just like a standard Cleric is set up for a specific play style.
Another good example is to check out the differences between watching a fight scene in a movie with the music as intended, and then with the music stripped out. The entire feel of the action is completely different.
Bards and music go together - I thought it was a stretch to also include other performance arts (I just can't see a mime inspiring me to do anything), but some do make sense. Coaches are consistantly given credit for inspiring their teams toward greatness - that's oratory, not musical. And I also feel that the music taps into the magic. Any class can sing a song, but the bard can infuse his song with magical power to accomplish something besides entertainment.
If I was fighting for survival (as someone above posted) and someone started singing a song to inspire me, I would think it was a waste of his breath and ignore it. However, if that song caused my blows to land more often, and to hurt my enemies more when they did, then I would say that that person might have just saved my life.
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Understood. I just don't think that's enough to build an entire base class around.I want it to be a class path choice, as completely eliminating Bards is blasphemy of the highest order.
I just don't think they should be as common as they are intended, nor their own specific base class.
I'd rather see a party-buff type class with a strong focus on skills and aiding in tactical moves for his allies that could pick a bardic music path if that's what they're into, but could just as easily be a master craftsman, tactician, adventuring gadgeteer, or expert researcher.
How many stories have you read where the knowledge of weaknesses and of tactical movements of some type of leader have saved the day? It shouldn't all be about performing. That's not enough to base a viable class around. Someone who's an expert in various skills and nehances their abilities with subtle magic? That's a good base for a class, and the bardic abilities should be one choice under that class.
But bard's already have special research powers. They have all Knowledge Skills as classskills and also bardic knowledge. If you want a character like Indiana Jones bards are the way to go. They even have whip proficiency. If you want a advantage over creatures by knowing their weaknesses, there is the Knowledge Devotion from Complete Champion, allowing you to gain bonuses on damage and attack rolls against creatures you identified with your knowledge skills.
The Dragonlance book War of the Lance has a new base class called Master, which should fit the class you imagine. They specialize on either Craft, Knowledge, Perform and Profession, gaining special abilities. They are not able to cast spells, though.
Indiana Jones never broke out into song.
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I think Bards are fine the way they are. They don't seem out of place or strange in the way they operate. How many people use music to amp themselves up for a workout? I for one can really have my mood adjusted by music. Music during combat, sure a bit off but I look at it this way, not only does the music get me amp'd up but if I'm fighting and look over at my friend who is putting himself in danger playing to get me amp'd up that's just going to make me fight all the harder. If it not your style that fine change it, but I don't think its an inherent issue with the class per se. The class is just set up for a certain style just like a standard Cleric is set up for a specific play style.Another good example is to check out the differences between watching a fight scene in a movie with the music as intended, and then with the music stripped out. The entire feel of the action is completely different.
Bards and music go together - I thought it was a stretch to also include other performance arts (I just can't see a mime inspiring me to do anything), but some do make sense. Coaches are consistantly given credit for inspiring their teams toward greatness - that's oratory, not musical. And I also feel that the music taps into the magic. Any class can sing a song, but the bard can infuse his song with magical power to accomplish something besides entertainment.
If I was fighting for survival (as someone above posted) and someone started singing a song to inspire me, I would think it was a waste of his breath and ignore it. However, if that song caused my blows to land more often, and to hurt my enemies more when they did, then I would say that that person might have just saved my life.
Is the inpiration from a Caoch merely his "Oratory" skill, or is it part of his knowledge of the game that helps him get his team playing well?
I'm saying that the bard should be a subset of a skill-based class that uses magic to enhance normally mundane talents and knowledges.
This won't even change the core function of a bard much, it'll simply give many other options and possibly make them experts at other skills.
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Well, I can't say I disagree with you. As an aside, I took an essentially opposite tack to things, and layered on a music flavour to the Akashic, the skill-based class from Arcana Unearthed/Evolved. Monte Cook's class there allowed for some leeway in how you used the class's "tap into world memory' ability...
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Well, I can't say I disagree with you. As an aside, I took an essentially opposite tack to things, and layered on a music flavour to the Akashic, the skill-based class from Arcana Unearthed/Evolved. Monte Cook's class there allowed for some leeway in how you used the class's "tap into world memory' ability...
Thanks :)
Yeah, Arcana Unearthed has some interesting stuff.
I came out of the gate kind of harsh, but I don't want people to think I'm trying to kill bards off.
I understand there are plenty of examples of music having an effect: From tribal drums to scottish bagpipes and horns and all that stuff; the idea of inpirational music or speech or tales isn't a bad one, but most of these effects don't take place in the middle of combat, they're often much more preparatory in the tales they come from.
The bard mechanics have become goofy at this point, and seem to have deviated into something just absurdly silly. They're an example of mechanics driving class, not the other way around.
I think you've missed my sarcastic point, but that's ok.
Most likely I did. I have a serious head-cold going on today so I miss a lot of things. ;)
I think the main point for a lot of us is that the magic that comes along with the music is what makes it make sense. As much as anything else makes sense in a magic based world.
Ans a Bard is a skill based class in my opinion. Don't they get the second highest amount of skill points in the game? Sure I guess you could say that their power should come from their knowledge so it should be a knowledge check verse a perform check, but honestly that's a different flavor to me. A Bard inspires because he/she talks or sings of greatness. It doesn't need to be fact based really it just needs to stir your emotions. Almost like a politician or and evanglist, they can get a crowd really worked up but not everything they say is a 100% factual or based strictly on knowledge.
Indiana Jones never broke out into song.
But he kicked more ass when his theme song was playing.
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I think you've missed my sarcastic point, but that's ok.
Most likely I did. I have a serious head-cold going on today so I miss a lot of things. ;)
I think the main point for a lot of us is that the magic that comes along with the music is what makes it make sense. As much as anything else makes sense in a magic based world.
Ans a Bard is a skill based class in my opinion. Don't they get the second highest amount of skill points in the game? Sure I guess you could say that their power should come from their knowledge so it should be a knowledge check verse a perform check, but honestly that's a different flavor to me. A Bard inspires because he/she talks or sings of greatness. It doesn't need to be fact based really it just needs to stir your emotions. Almost like a politician or and evanglist, they can get a crowd really worked up but not everything they say is a 100% factual or based strictly on knowledge.
This is a good point. I'm just throwing ideas out there and trying to stir up discussion, which is going fairly well.
My idea is that there ar other builds of a skill-driven character that augments their talents with magic. Bards seem so narrow and specific that you could wrap them up into something broader that can cover other missing niches, and not lose any of the class style and flavor; it's all in the options you pick.
Dangit! I had a long post that got eaten apparently.
Anyway....to retype most of what I said.
Maybe the bard needs more tastey bits to intice players to play it. But also a bard needs a wider variety so that bards just aren't carbon copies of eachother.
For this I would suggest that we add more abilities that a bard could use to enhance the abilities of his group of companions and himself. Either via Speechs/Litanies, Dances, or Songs both instrumental or vocal.
Speechs/Litanies: We could add different Speechs or Tales that could provide morale bonuses to checks/saves/attacks/damage. Also there could be another array to demoralize enemies in the same fashion.
Dances: We could add different kinds of elaborate attacks/defensive abilities that could damage/parry/or disarm foes.
Songs: These could be used for magical effects. Instrumental songs could disrupt enemy spells or effects. While Vocal songs could enhance allies enemy spells or effects.
This would add some diversity to the kinds of bards that are available, while individualizing the bard a bit more.
Thoughts or suggestions? Feel free to rip it apart. It's just something I thought of when I read this thread.
My two copper.
I think that some elements of the factotum class from dunegoenscape could be borrowed to revamp the bard. IMO, factotums captured the whole "jack-of-all trades" flavor better than the bard did. If tweaked, a mechanic similar to their inspriation ability could be used for the bard.
As for a better party buff ability, the archivist from heroes of horror bestowed some very useful abilities. If toned down in power and changed to a perform skill check rather than knowledge the bard would become a very useful support class.
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My two copper.
I think that some elements of the factotum class from dunegoenscape could be borrowed to revamp the bard. Factotums captured the whole "jack-of-all trades" flavor better than the bard did.
As for a better party buff ability, the archivist from heroes of horror bestowed some very useful abilities. If toned down in power and changed to a perform skill check rather than knowledge the bard would become a very useful support class.
That's actually something I had in mind as a base for some of the "expert" skill alternate ideas.
Of course, this all depends on how you view the Bard.
Is it a performer first, someone to inpire and buff the party?
Or is it a jack of all trades skill based adventurer with a splash of modest magic?
I'm not saying the two need to be mutually exclusive, but there's more to skill based characters than Rogues and Rangers.
One thing I'd change for the Bard is to allow them to use they're Inspire Courage while attacking, like the Purple Dragon Knight prestige class as well as Inspire Greatness and Inspire Heroics.
I like the other ideas the OP had, but but I'm not sure they belong in the same class as the Bard.
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Maybe the bard needs more tastey bits to intice players to play it. But also a bard needs a wider variety so that bards just aren't carbon copies of eachother.Actually, when they started presenting alternate songs and song feats in the various Complete books, I rewrote the Bard in our games to gain one song Feat at levels where they would normally gain a song and stripped all of the song features and alternate features into additional song Feats. Thus, one Bard might be the happy Halfling singing funny songs that distract and soothe, another might be a Dwarf or Gnome whose songs are sea chanties and labor-rhythms, and another might be a Human whose songs are death metal rock ballads. DUDE!
*ahem*
Anyways, one of my favorite prestige classes is the Dirgist from Ravenloft, who reversed the concept of the Bard. Instead of buffing the party, they mostly debuff enemies. Their only major buff required that a partymate be dropped to 0 or fewer HP, thus whipping the party into vengeful fury. If you got a list of songs to choose from, that would be infinitely better than just getting the same songs at given levels.
There's a Dirge in Libris Mortis too, not sure if it follows similar mechanics or not.
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One thing I'd change for the Bard is to allow them to use they're Inspire Courage while attacking, like the Purple Dragon Knight prestige class as well as Inspire Greatness and Inspire Heroics.
I like the other ideas the OP had, but but I'm not sure they belong in the same class as the Bard.
The Purple Dragon Knight is similar to what I had in mind for the tactician skill type.
<threadjack>
I have a thrall?
</threadjack>
That's actually something I had in mind as a base for some of the "expert" skill alternate ideas.Of course, this all depends on how you view the Bard.
Is it a performer first, someone to inpire and buff the party?
Or is it a jack of all trades skill based adventurer with a splash of modest magic?
I'm not saying the two need to be mutually exclusive, but there's more to skill based characters than Rogues and Rangers.
I view them as a bit of both. Perhaps there could be two paths that a bard could follow. The jack-of-all-trades path or the buffer route.
As for spells, I'd take spellcasting away from the bard entirely and replace it with better bardic music/ buff abilities, increased HD, and better saves
Of course, this all depends on how you view the Bard.
Is it a performer first, someone to inpire and buff the party?
Or is it a jack of all trades skill based adventurer with a splash of modest magic?
I view the Bard as someone that has chosen the life of the wandering minstrel first and formost. For me, it's all about the music and the magic that flows from it that the Bard alone has access to. That magical music is powerful, sure, but not so powerful that the bard can just do that to get by. I mean, if you're a swinger of swords, you can pretty much be assured of a job with a caravan, or manning the gates to the town, but who wants someone around that is only there to entertain most of the time?
So, the bard needs to be able to pick up other skills along the way just to be useful to others. Fortunately, his predilection to roaming the land, talking to folks, collecting tidbits of information about this and that, and a general curiousity about how things work all converge into a useful whole.
What *could* this mean mechanically? Well, the way these new rules read, the bard could just pick out 6 skills (much like the expert does now), plus Preception and Perform. That would make my bard more of an urbanite who fell in with the wrong crowd and knows lots about thieving, while your bard is more of a wilderness savant with knowledge of all the landmarks and inhabitants for miles around, and someone else's bard is a master weaponsmith with such a grasp of magics that he can imbue music into steel. At their core, they all know the magic inherent in all music, can tell if someone is lying and what their audience wants to hear, and how to manipulate either to acheive some greater end.
And if there were paths of Bardic Music in much the same manner as there are schools of magic, or domains, it would both go a long way toward making the bard extremely adaptable, and extremely complex. I don't know what I'd vote for more - but I did like one poster's suggestion of making bardic music effects into feats, all of them I mean...
As for spells, I'd take spellcasting away from the bard entirely completely and replace it with better bardic music/ buff abilities, increased HD, and better saves
Yeah... I'd give them more spells to choose from, but the same number to cast each day. Plus all Sonic Spells. If there was ever a class that should have access to sonic spells, is there a better candidate than the Bard?
Yeah... I'd give them more spells to choose from, but the same number to cast each day. Plus all Sonic Spells. If there was ever a class that should have access to sonic spells, is there a better candidate than the Bard?
Personally, I feel that the bard should only have spellcasting via magic items. There are way to many classes that can cast spells. Give the bard its own niche. Perhaps giving a bard a greater chance of using the use magic device skill would better capture the character that knows a little about a lot flavor than giving them full caster status.
Music may not play a huge roll in modern warfare but in ancient times it was very important. Music can be heard for miles, it cuts over shouts and cries on the battlefield, and in could be both intimidating and inspiring. Imagine being on the opposing side of that Valkyrie helicopter assault, basically you know they're coming (because you can hear them coming), and you also know that they know you know they're coming . . . and they don't care. They're saying "here we come and there's not a darn thing you can do about it. Go ahead, try to fight us, we're giving you time to prepare . . . it's not going to make a single lick of difference . . . "
Good example. I was also thinking of Highlander (the original) and various other Scottish period movies where the pipers would play during combat. Plus the fiddler in that Gina Davis Pirate movie (whose name escapes me at the moment) when they were fighting ship to ship at one point... Oh, and bugles/horns in combat are so historic it's almost not worth mentioning - except that I just have. Sure, the bugle was a signal to do something, but in fantasy it can have a completely different, magical, effect. And I'm all for preserving that.
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I mean, I understand the whole genre and the inpirational stuff and all that, but even in the most ridiculous circumstances what kind of dolt is going to sit in the middle of battle playing music to inspire and uplift everyone.
Well untill very recently (about 1950 i think) The british army with men playing bagpipes to inspire the troops in the middle of battle.
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Personally, I feel that the bard should only have spellcasting via magic items. There are way to many classes that can cast spells. Give the bard its own niche. Perhaps giving a bard a greater chance of using the use magic device skill would better capture the character that knows a little about a lot flavor than giving them full caster status.
Pretty much every bard in fiction/folklore/mythology has been able to use magic. Take that away, or the music, and you've so fundamentally changed the class from its literary roots that you've created a brand-new class.
The bard could use some tweaking, especially with all of the slight up-sizing we've been seeing for the classes that have come out so far. But by tweaking, I'm not saying take anything away from him.I'll take that back. If something has to go, the bardic knowledge ability is almost pure 3rd ed.
An argument could be made that historical bards were given such a broad education that it supports such an ability, but if something's got to go, that's the least "flavorful" of his abilities.
Dances: We could add different kinds of elaborate attacks/defensive abilities that could damage/parry/or disarm foes.
You mean like the Basiran Dancer class from kingdoms of Kalamar?
You mean like the Basiran Dancer class from kingdoms of Kalamar?
Dances: We could add different kinds of elaborate attacks/defensive abilities that could damage/parry/or disarm foes.
I'm not familar with that unfortunately.
...I'll take that back. If something has to go, the bardic knowledge ability is almost pure 3rd ed.
An argument could be made that historical bards were given such a broad education that it supports such an ability, but if something's got to go, that's the least "flavorful" of his abilities.
I dissagree, but only so far as the class feature is called "Bardic Knowledge." Lore would be a better name, and could just be replaced with something as simple as a +1 bonus to knowledge skills known (or +1 per level). This would also keep other classes from saying thinkgs like: "The Loremaster gains the ability to know stuff like a bard does, and levels in bard stack with loremaster levels for the purpose of determining what the total lore bonus is."
I find that having a bonus to knowledge skills is very appropriate for someone supposedly so well traveled, especially if they went to all the trouble of putting ranks into them.