Hi everyone,
I am starting a Planescape game, and the players have decided they want to use the game as a Pathfinder playtest. The first question is the matter of tieflings. They are +1 LA under 3.5, but the core races in Pathfinder seem to have gotten a bit of a power bump. Any thoughts on how to balance the Tiefling race to reflect this? Or are they good as written?
I am one of the players in question .I think they may still LA +1 3 energy resistance at 5 and darkness 1/day . thats my thoughts anyhow
Tieflings are in no way worth a level limit even under standard rules. Halflings are better than they are in most cases. +1 to all saves, +1 to attack rolls, +2 to a grip of skills, it's pretty intense. The Tiefling gets to cast a mediocre second level spell once per day, but Gnomes get to cast several quite excellent cantrips each day, and it honestly works out.
The only thing that got Tieflings a LA is the fact that ugly races aren't allowed nice things when contrasted with luminaries like the Grey Elf and the Forest Gnome; and the game designers over fetishized Energy Resistances. Energy Resistance 5 is not now, and never has been a big deal. It's cool from a role playing standpoint that you can cook your food by holding it in the fire with your hand, but it's not the kind of thing that even matters at high level.
Races like the Hobgoblin and the Tiefling are balanced or even underperforming when contrasted with the basic 3.5 upper tier races like the Grey Elf, the Forest Gnome, and the Deep Halfling. They already don't deserve a Level Adjustment. If we make the basic races even better, races like Hobgoblin and Tiefling certainly don't need a level adjustment. Lower tier races like Kobold and Orc will want substantial improvements in several areas to keep up.
-Frank
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I took a look at this as soon as the Alpha rules were released, and tried to convert the aasmar, tiefling, and hobgoblins (all LA+1 races in 3.5) to Pathfinder.
Tiefling is the easiest of the three. They already have a +2 to a mental and a physical stat, and -2 balancing penalty. The darkness and resistances are not anything more powerful than the other races get, IMO.
The only thing to change is making the +2 bonus to Bluff and Hide a bonus to Deception and Stealth. And drop the LA.
If it still seems too powerful, choose one resistance instead of getting all three. Done.
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Keep in mind that Teiflings, under 3.5, are outsiders, and get some peculiar freebies for their race type. Seriously, take a look at what outsiders get in the back of the MM1.
For my 2 cents, Teiflings should be treated as if they were humanoids for proficiencies and such, drop the +1 LA, and as mentioned above, pick one energy resistance (maybe indicating what kind of demon they're related to) and they're good to go.
Keep in mind that Teiflings, under 3.5, are outsiders, and get some peculiar freebies for their race type. Seriously, take a look at what outsiders get in the back of the MM1.
For my 2 cents, Teiflings should be treated as if they were humanoids for proficiencies and such, drop the +1 LA, and as mentioned above, pick one energy resistance (maybe indicating what kind of demon they're related to) and they're good to go.
YA know I had forgotten about the outsider stuff. I would call em native outsider like the realms do. as native outsider I would not give them all simple and martial weapons and never have really kinda forgot since they dont advance as outsider but in classes in fact HD is determined by class.
Other then that they get darkvision. that dont add much really.
I fully appreciate Tieflings *not* being LA +0. Dropping the stat penalty is all I would do to change them.
ok lets compare . tieflings ,drawfs and elves
state mods
T:+2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, –2 Charisma
D:+2 Constitution, +2 Wisdom, –2 Charisma
E:+2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, –2 Constitution
sight ability's
T: Darkvision 60'
D:Darkvision 60 feet
E:Low-Light Vision
Speed
T: 30'
D: 20'
E: 30'
Skill mods
T:+2 Deception and stealth
D:Stonecunning: Dwarves treat any Profession skill
related to stone as a class skill. In addition, they receive
a +2 bonus on Perception skill checks to notice unusual
stonework, such as traps and hidden doors located in stone
walls or f loors. They receive a check to notice such features
whenever they pass within 10 feet of them, regardless of
whether or not they are actively looking.
Keen Senses: Dwarves receive a +2 bonus on taste- and
touch-based Perception skill checks.
Greed: Dwarves can make Appraise skill checks as if
trained when attempting to determine the price of nonmagical
goods that contain precious metals and gemstones
E:Keen Senses: Elves receive a +2 bonus on sight- and
sound-based Perception checks. They can make a
Perception check to spot a secret or concealed door if they
pass within 10 feet, regardless of whether or not they are
actively looking.
Special ability's
T:checks.
• Darkness (Sp): A tiefling can use darkness, as the
spell, once per day. Her caster level is equal to her
character level.
• Resistance to cold 5, electricity
5, and fire 5: Tieflings share some
of their fiendish ancestors’ resistance to
energy damage
D:Hearty: Dwarves receive a +2 racial bonus on saving
throws against poison, spells, and spell-like abilities.
Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves are proficient with battleaxes,
handaxes, and warhammers, and treat any weapon with
the word “dwarven” in its name as a martial weapon.
Hatred: Dwarves receive a +1 bonus on attack rolls
against humanoid creatures of the orc and goblin subtype
due to special training against these hated foes.
Defensive Training: Dwarves get a +4 dodge bonus to AC
against monsters of the giant type.
Stability: Dwarves receive a +4 bonus to their combat
maneuver bonus when resisting a bull rush or trip attempt
while standing on the ground.
E: Elven Immunities: Elves are immune to magic sleep
effects and get a +2 racial saving throw bonus against
enchantment spells or effects.
Elven Magic: Elves receive a +2 racial bonus on caster
level checks made to overcome spell resistance. In addition,
elves receive a +2 racial bonus on Appraise skill checks
made to identify the properties of magic items.
Unnatural Beauty: The attitude of those dealing with
elves is improved by one step so long as their starting
attitude is at least “indifferent.” This increase is subject to
GM discretion and might not apply to all creatures.
Weapon Familiarity: Elves are proficient with
longbows (including composite longbows), longswords
rapiers, and shortbows (including composite shortbows),
and treat any weapon with the word “elven” in its name
as a martial weapon.
I have changed my mind if some one up there gets a +1 LA it shouldn't be the tiefling.
I would prefer it if Tieflings got a Wisdom penalty rather than a Charisma penalty. It strikes me as really weird that Tieflings are penalized for being Sorcerers, Dread Necromancers, and Warlocks.
I am totally OK with Wizard being their primary caster type, but I would prefer them being penalized at Cleric and Druid than at Sorcerer and Warlock.
-Frank
I would prefer it if Tieflings got a Wisdom penalty rather than a Charisma penalty. It strikes me as really weird that Tieflings are penalized for being Sorcerers, Dread Necromancers, and Warlocks.
I am totally OK with Wizard being their primary caster type, but I would prefer them being penalized at Cleric and Druid than at Sorcerer and Warlock.
-Frank
That's been an ongoing problem since 3rd edition came out. They create classes and concepts that are "disliked" (Sorcerer, Warlock), then make Charisma the needed stat. They create races that have Charisma penalties (Tiefling), then with the flavor make those races well-known for taking Charisma-dependent classes.
Then they go and give the beholder a high charisma. Obviously, someone remembered that Charisma is not how attractive you are - but they keep falling into that trap with the races...
I'd prefer to see Charisma penalties connected with races that blend into the woodwork (maybe halflings?) and have trouble getting noticed. And races that get noticed (tieflings, half-orcs) have a strong presence, and should not be penalyzed in Charisma - and those races should be considered for having that be their mental bonus stat.
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The Players guide to Faerun includes planetouched variants that have no LA. All they do is change the type from outsider to humanoid. (Maybe with the extarplanar subtype or something, I can't quite remember.)
I would definitely recommend removing the outsider type if yuo are going for +0 LA.
Otherwise, there are too many unexpected benefits.
For example, since he is an outsider my current tiefling character can use alter self to turn into an earth mephit - small size, fly speed, +6 natural armour bonus to AC.
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I would prefer it if Tieflings got a Wisdom penalty rather than a Charisma penalty. It strikes me as really weird that Tieflings are penalized for being Sorcerers, Dread Necromancers, and Warlocks.
I am totally OK with Wizard being their primary caster type, but I would prefer them being penalized at Cleric and Druid than at Sorcerer and Warlock.
-Frank
This makes sense to me. Tielfings, while dark and shifty, should have some kind of otherworldly presence, a forceful persona stemming from their Dark origins. And those same dark origins could make them a bit reckless and wild.
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Keep in mind that Teiflings, under 3.5, are outsiders, and get some peculiar freebies for their race type. Seriously, take a look at what outsiders get in the back of the MM1.
For my 2 cents, Teiflings should be treated as if they were humanoids for proficiencies and such, drop the +1 LA, and as mentioned above, pick one energy resistance (maybe indicating what kind of demon they're related to) and they're good to go.
YA know I had forgotten about the outsider stuff. I would call em native outsider like the realms do. as native outsider I would not give them all simple and martial weapons and never have really kinda forgot since they dont advance as outsider but in classes in fact HD is determined by class.
Other then that they get darkvision. that dont add much really.
Yep, that's what I'd do. "Native" outsider is a good idea so they don't get broken freebies.
ok lets compare . tieflings ,drawfs and elves
You are forgetting to add in the Tieflings "built in" immunities as an Outsider.
They are immune to Hold Person, Charm Person, and any other spell that targets only humanoids, which there are several that I can't remember right now.
Sure, that isn't that much, and quickly gets useless, but at low levels it does make a big difference. And it was a bigger difference before Hold Person got a save every round in 3.5.
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ok lets compare . tieflings ,drawfs and elvesYou are forgetting to add in the Tieflings "built in" immunities as an Outsider.
They are immune to Hold Person, Charm Person, and any other spell that targets only humanoids, which there are several that I can't remember right now.
Sure, that isn't that much, and quickly gets useless, but at low levels it does make a big difference. And it was a bigger difference before Hold Person got a save every round in 3.5.
That's why we'd want to make them "native" outsiders; or perhaps humanoid with an outsider sub-type?
I think we're all in agreement that the "outsider type" bonuses need to go.
ok lets compare . tieflings ,drawfs and elvesYou are forgetting to add in the Tieflings "built in" immunities as an Outsider.
They are immune to Hold Person, Charm Person, and any other spell that targets only humanoids, which there are several that I can't remember right now.
Sure, that isn't that much, and quickly gets useless, but at low levels it does make a big difference. And it was a bigger difference before Hold Person got a save every round in 3.5.
That's why we'd want to make them "native" outsiders; or perhaps humanoid with an outsider sub-type
I think we're all in agreement that the "outsider type" bonuses need to go.
well AFAIK the native outsider from the realms got no bounes . they got darkvison and not affected by some spells . now the not by humanoid only spells sounds like a biggie. then I look at elves ,immune to magic sleep
effects and get a +2 racial saving throw bonus againstenchantment spells or effects. really the more I look the less +1 LA they look.
I would prefer it if Tieflings got a Wisdom penalty rather than a Charisma penalty. It strikes me as really weird that Tieflings are penalized for being Sorcerers, Dread Necromancers, and Warlocks.
I am totally OK with Wizard being their primary caster type, but I would prefer them being penalized at Cleric and Druid than at Sorcerer and Warlock.
-Frank
That´s a good idea. It would be more fitting to their background if they are (or can be) charismatic but not too insightful, IMHO.
Stefan
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I would prefer it if Tieflings got a Wisdom penalty rather than a Charisma penalty. It strikes me as really weird that Tieflings are penalized for being Sorcerers, Dread Necromancers, and Warlocks.
I am totally OK with Wizard being their primary caster type, but I would prefer them being penalized at Cleric and Druid than at Sorcerer and Warlock.
-Frank
That´s a good idea. It would be more fitting to their background if they are (or can be) charismatic but not too insightful, IMHO.
Stefan
Exactly! ^_^
That's why we'd want to make them "native" outsiders; or perhaps humanoid with an outsider sub-type?
I think we're all in agreement that the "outsider type" bonuses need to go.
By RAW, a native outsider is still an outsider. Now, I agree that they should be humanoids. Leave native outsider for half-fiends and half-celestials.
By RAW, a native outsider is still an outsider. Now, I agree that they should be humanoids. Leave native outsider for half-fiends and half-celestials.
Well pathfinder is changer what RAW is and as I said in the realms I don't know of anyone that even uses native outsider weapon thing.In fact there are 8 planetouched native outsiders in races of faerun .7 only get darkvison and the benefit vs. humanoid affecting spells.The only race to get the outsider benefits are the Tanarukk.They have 5d8 racial HD havening non-class HD seem to be what gives your the ability's like the weapon training and skills and such.Native outsider without racial HD seem to get only darkvision and the Immune to humanoid only spells thing.
It's also important to note that the Outsider-only affecting spells are actually a lot nastier at most levels than the Humanoid-only spells. Sure it sucks that people can hold person you rather than having to use hold monster, but having people dismiss or banishment you is no improvement.
-Frank
It's also important to note that the Outsider-only affecting spells are actually a lot nastier at most levels than the Humanoid-only spells. Sure it sucks that people can hold person you rather than having to use hold monster, but having people dismiss or banishment you is no improvement.
-Frank
that only works on native outsiders off there native plane.It is nasty though
I believe one of the Forgotten Realms books has an optional side bar for decreasing the +1 LA. I think it just involves removing the outsider type so that charm person, hold person, and whatnot will work on the character.
that only works on native outsiders off there native plane.It is nasty thoughIt's also important to note that the Outsider-only affecting spells are actually a lot nastier at most levels than the Humanoid-only spells. Sure it sucks that people can hold person you rather than having to use hold monster, but having people dismiss or banishment you is no improvement.
-Frank
Actually, the rules are way harsher than that on Planetouched. The basic Forgotten Realms book goes into exquisite painful detail that Native Outsiders count as "extraplanar creatures" for the purposes of spells like banishment. The Player's Guide to Feyrun is even harsher, and has this chestnut:
Planetouched are humanoids (not outsiders with the planetouched subtype. They are susceptible to spells and effects that specifically target both humanoids or outsiders. Charm person works against them, and so does banishment. This trait replaces the outsider entry in each planetouched description.
Being a Tiefling hurts. A lot.
-Frank
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Hi everyone,
I am starting a Planescape game, and the players have decided they want to use the game as a Pathfinder playtest. The first question is the matter of tieflings. They are +1 LA under 3.5, but the core races in Pathfinder seem to have gotten a bit of a power bump. Any thoughts on how to balance the Tiefling race to reflect this? Or are they good as written?
Actually, I dumped LA in my games. It was a bit of a headache, and frankly, LA +1 is pretty darn insignificant. Of course, in my games, the players are more into roleplaying their characters regardless of strengths or weaknesses. I've yet to hear someone complain that another player's character is unfairly stronger (or weaker).
I stand corrected frank. think that makes it's +1LA kinda more pointless
I would prefer it if Tieflings got a Wisdom penalty rather than a Charisma penalty. It strikes me as really weird that Tieflings are penalized for being Sorcerers, Dread Necromancers, and Warlocks.
I am totally OK with Wizard being their primary caster type, but I would prefer them being penalized at Cleric and Druid than at Sorcerer and Warlock.
-Frank
Though I see that they have difficulties with dealing with other people, but that doesn't mean they have a low charisma, just a bad reputation. Low Charisma means weak minded, insecure, somewhat shy and unable to take your stance (which might result in becomming a bully). I see tieflings rather as the opposite and they sould get a bonus to Cha.
Thanks everyone for posting!
A loy of good ideas. I am leaning towards:
1) abolishing the +1 LA
2) Dropping the Outsider status (unless parent was a full-fledged fiend ... I don't see why if Great-granpappy was from the Abyss why you should be banished there!)
3) Switching stat penalty from CHA to WIS (that seems to make sense to me)
Thanks again for the input folks!
Planetouched are humanoids (not outsiders with the planetouched subtype. They are susceptible to spells and effects that specifically target both humanoids or outsiders. Charm person works against them, and so does banishment. This trait replaces the outsider entry in each planetouched description.
Being a Tiefling hurts. A lot.
-Frank
The discussion was about removing the +1LA... the Tiefling presented on page191 of the Players Guide to Faerun doesnt have a LA... so implying that the +1LA should just be dropped because "being a tiefling hurts a lot" shouldnt be supported by the version of the tiefling that isn't +1LA. Cause the the +1LA "suckful" tiefling sure gets a lot of spell imunities by not being humanoid... and yes, the anti-outsider spells are more powerful but really that is balanced by the fact that most spellcasters aren't going to have them memorized on a daily basis the way the have anti-humanoid spells are.
Second, the Cha penalty for Tiefling represents a penalty to social interaction because the avg person distrusts/dislikes them... Having the warlock use Cha as prime stat never seemed right to me anyway as all the really nasty fantasy warlocks seem to be high intelligence types with sociopathic tendencies.
that only works on native outsiders off there native plane.It is nasty thoughIt's also important to note that the Outsider-only affecting spells are actually a lot nastier at most levels than the Humanoid-only spells. Sure it sucks that people can hold person you rather than having to use hold monster, but having people dismiss or banishment you is no improvement.
-Frank
Actually, the rules are way harsher than that on Planetouched. The basic Forgotten Realms book goes into exquisite painful detail that Native Outsiders count as "extraplanar creatures" for the purposes of spells like banishment. The Player's Guide to Feyrun is even harsher, and has this chestnut:
Planetouched are humanoids (not outsiders with the planetouched subtype. They are susceptible to spells and effects that specifically target both humanoids or outsiders. Charm person works against them, and so does banishment. This trait replaces the outsider entry in each planetouched description.Being a Tiefling hurts. A lot.
-Frank
That's ridiculous. Where exactly are they banished to? Banishment says it's a more powerful version of dismissal, which means that all aspects of dismissal apply unless specifically contradicted in the description of banishment. Dismissal specifies that it sends its target back to its home plane, and banishment says nothing about where its targets end up, thus this aspect of dismissal still applies to banishment. A tiefling's home plane is most likely the Prime. So where does this Primeborn tiefling end up? That's an idiotic rule that can't even be applied ever, and if a rule can't be applied, it may as well not exist.
Personally, I'd chalk that up to Faerunians just being silly Clueless, wrong about yet another planar thing, much as how they're wrong about the Dark of their own cosmology. Green Fields indeed.
Also, on tieflings being an "ugly race": did you see their 3.0 MM picture? That alone's an argument against a Cha penalty, I'd say. :D
-Frank
That's ridiculous. Where exactly are they banished to? Banishment says it's a more powerful version of dismissal, which means that all aspects of dismissal apply unless specifically contradicted in the description of banishment. Dismissal specifies that it sends its target back to its home plane, and banishment says nothing about where its targets end up, thus this aspect of dismissal still applies to banishment. A tiefling's home plane is most likely the Prime. So where does this Primeborn tiefling end up? That's an idiotic rule that can't even be applied ever, and if a rule can't be applied, it may as well not exist.
Personally, I'd chalk that up to Faerunians just being silly Clueless, wrong about yet another planar...
The reason dismissal/banishment matters (and is not silly) is that a Tiefling might just find himself one day going to a plane other than his home plane and so he can be dissmissed/banished from that plane back to his/her home plane thus denying the party of a member (even if only temp.).
Secondly, the existing fluff on tiefling indicates the -2Cha is because others tend to be unsettled by them... ugly has nothing to do with it...Finally, argumentum ad hominem (ie if the person believes it's that way, they must be silly/stupid/ignorant etc.) is fallacious and shouldn't be part of anyones post IMHO.
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That's ridiculous. Where exactly are they banished to? Banishment says it's a more powerful version of dismissal, which means that all aspects of dismissal apply unless specifically contradicted in the description of banishment. Dismissal specifies that it sends its target back to its home plane, and banishment says nothing about where its targets end up, thus this aspect of dismissal still applies to banishment. A tiefling's home plane is most likely the Prime. So where does this Primeborn tiefling end up? That's an idiotic rule that can't even be applied ever, and if a rule can't be applied, it may as well not exist.
In addition to the praetor's point, I think it's worth noting that, even while on the target's home plane, there is a 20% chance of sending it to a "plane other than its own." Which would be embarrassing, and in many ways effectively fatal (if the character in question doesn't have a near-instantaneous means of return).
The reason dismissal/banishment matters (and is not silly) is that a Tiefling might just find himself one day going to a plane other than his home plane and so he can be dissmissed/banished from that plane back to his/her home plane thus denying the party of a member (even if only temp.).
Secondly, the existing fluff on tiefling indicates the -2Cha is because others tend to be unsettled by them... ugly has nothing to do with it...Finally, argumentum ad hominem (ie if the person believes it's that way, they must be silly/stupid/ignorant etc.) is fallacious and shouldn't be part of anyones post IMHO.
No, no, I'm not calling Frank silly. I'm saying the rule is silly. You're right about the extraplanar travel issue, yes. But all creatures gain the extraplanar subtype and are susceptible to banishment when off of their homeplane, not just Outsiders. So your human, halfling, elf, etc. party members could be banished back to the Prime just like the others.
But according to the rules excerpt from Players Guide to Faerun that Frank posted, even if they're from the Prime, they can be Banished from the Prime...to the Prime. How does that work? That is what I am saying is silly.
(The Clueless deal was me using some Planescape Cant as a lighthearted way of resolving the contradiction.)
As for the Tiefling Cha mod comment, that was a joke. Frank refered to them as one of the "ugly races" before, meaning an evil race. So I made a pun based on the term, and the fact that usually tieflings are shown as quite the opposite. As a second example, Annah from Planescape: Torment.
I love the ideas presented here and will also adopt the +0 LA, humanoid and Wis-penalty for my campaign.
One question, though: since the Tiefling now is no longer an Outsider, would you allow her to keep Darkvision?
I would yes.
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I have a tiefling in our playtest group, and I allowed a savage-progressions style race, where they get their stat bonuses, type and darkvision for +0 LA. If at any point they want to stop being Lesser Tieflings and take the +1 LA when they level up, I'll give them their resistances and darkness ability.