|
Currently you have to memorize the spells that you have to cast and then loose the spell at casting. The whole action of keeping track of spells is a little bother for some players and DMs. For both keeping track of how many spells that were cast and at higher levels it all adds up, especially for wizards and clerics where every spell is to be jotted down.
A suggestion is a different way of spell casting, something more based off skills and caster lv, and casters can cast an unlimited number of spells. In this system there is a dc to cast a spell and the caster has to make that dc to cast a spell. This dc is going to greatly increase as spell level goes up. The cast is to roll her caster level plus spellcraft ranks, plus spell modifier (cha, int, Wis) and add this to meet or beat the DC. Unlike other test if the caster doesn’t meet the DC he/she can keep casting the spell and add sum of the next test to this test.
Example === Ganno (Human Necromancer) is casting magic missile DC20 and he is a first level wizard with an int of 15 and 4 ranks in spellcraft. This is a total of 7 for his casting modifier. Ganno rolls a 14 and adds the 7, casting modifier, success the spell is cast and the magical missile fires. Had Ganno rolled a 10 he would have had a total of 17 meaning he is still trying to cast the spell on his next turn. Come the next turn Ganno is still trying to cast that spell to he rolls again and gets a 1, a 1 is not a fail but is just a low number to have for casting, and to the 1 that was rolled he adds his casting modifier and gets a total of 8. This 8 is added to the casting from last round (17) to make a total of 25, the magic missile tales off.
Later Ganno becomes 5th lv and he has an int of 16 now, (+3), his level is now 5(+5), he has 8ranks in spellcraft (+8), and his specializing in necromancy gave him a +2 in necromancy for spellcraft (+2) all makes a total caster modifier of (+18). Now Ganno has the choice of either choose to cast a 1st lv spell on his turn (DC20), 2nd Lv spell (DC30), or a 3rd Lv Spell (DC40).
(these suggestions on what number system might works best)
Spell levels or DC
0lv = DC10 = DC15
1st = DC20 = DC20
2nd = DC30 = DC25
3rd = DC40 = DC30
4th = DC50 = DC35
5th = DC60 = DC40
6th = DC70 = DC45
7th = DC80 = DC50
8th = DC90 = DC55
9th = DC100 = DC60
This system gives spell casters the ability to cast an unlimited number of spells but make casting time longer for caster to cast the highest level spell that they can but at the same time that caster can caster a lower level spell that the caster has come more accustomed to with just as much ease as an archer releasing an arrow.
good idea, but what about the bard and the sorcerer ?
|
|
good idea, but what about the bard and the sorcerer ?
Good question, it brings up the whole issue of having several types of spellcasters.
Bards can have the use of perform rather than spellcraft to make the caster modifier but learn spells in the same progression as they do currently.
Sorcerers are the same wizards for caster modifier; spellcraft ranks + spell modifier (charisma) + caster level, but learn spells in the same progression as they do currently.
The first player’s handbook of the 3.0 had wizards and sorcerers, 2 classes that cast the same list of spells but cast spells differently. In exchange for not casting as many spells per day as a sorcerer the wizard can use his knowledge of magic to learn and advance in spells faster than a sorcerer. But a sorcerer could cast more spells and didn't have to remember study to prepare spells. With this system the wizard can cast just as many spells as a sorcerer. This brings up the issue of why would one play a sorcerer that learns spells a whole level after a wizard. This is where class powers are what make the sorcerer compensate for not getting that knowledge of a spell at the same time as a wizard. From these class power will help the sorcerer cast spells better or even change the output of the spell cast by the sorcerer.
In 3.5 the wizard had to prepare is spells ahead of time and the player would jot down every spell they want to cast for that day, the sorcerer class in 3.5 was an option to keep from having to jot everything down. Pathfinder looks like it is more geared to give better options rather than an option to avoid an inconvenience, this statement is based of the choices Pathfinder is giving player for races compared to the 3.5 players handbook.
This is themed after playing RPG games like Final Fantasy and Tale of Symphonia where casters had the option to make a melee attack but instead took time to cast a spell and produced an amazing magical out come. Casting unlimited spells is not new, both Shadowrun RPG and Lord of the Rings are examples of where casters have unlimited spells.
Opinions? Suggestions? Corrections? Welcomed
Currently you have to memorize the spells that you have to cast and then loose the spell at casting. The whole action of keeping track of spells is a little bother for some players and DMs. For both keeping track of how many spells that were cast and at higher levels it all adds up, especially for wizards and clerics where every spell is to be jotted down.
Why must we trash the existing magic system? What is the problem with the system as it stands for memorizing and casting spells?
Why must we trash the existing magic system? What is the problem with the system as it stands for memorizing and casting spells?
I'm also drawn between vancien or another possiblity, so no critque to the ideas here. it would be nice to have something "other" but i can live with the current system (and my players, too) and so i say, let the system as it is - too much change for 3.5 compatibility for whatever new you come up with
Currently you have to memorize the spells that you have to cast and then loose the spell at casting. The whole action of keeping track of spells is a little bother for some players and DMs. For both keeping track of how many spells that were cast and at higher levels it all adds up, especially for wizards and clerics where every spell is to be jotted down.Why must we trash the existing magic system? What is the problem with the system as it stands for memorizing and casting spells?
Because it is a terrible terrible system. It promotes the Five Minute workday moreso than any other system in the game, it can be confusing for new players, and its just plain annoying.
|
|
Why must we trash the existing magic system? What is the problem with the system as it stands for memorizing and casting spells?Because it is a terrible terrible system. It promotes the Five Minute workday moreso than any other system in the game, it can be confusing for new players, and its just plain annoying.
Pathfinder is going to be 3.5 but somethings are going to change on it compared to the wotc 3.5, look at the classes in the alpha. This casting system is just using the caster level, the spellcraft ranks, and the ability that the 3.5 characters already have and using those to cast spells.
With the current system at 1st level a wizard can cast 3 0th and 1st level spell(3/0th & 4/1st if you max out your character), but the process of writing these spells out is not as bat as it could be at later levels but this means if a wizard is to the max they can only cast 7 spells for the whole day, 8 if you include the bond, and 3 are cantrips. After the spells are used up the wizard really can't do much at this point leaving him to try at combat, and if he's magically to the max out he can't fight too well, this is discouraging for new players.
At 5th level, this is the one everyone likes because of fireball, you can cast. 4/0th, 3/1st, 2/nd, & 1/3rd, plus the bond. That is 11 at least, this can be to the max for more spells but all the spells have to be written out and kept track of. 5lv isn't even a high level, at 13lv you keep track of at least 26( enough to fill up legal size paper), these numbers are just from the class list not including the bonus from feats, class features, and ability score.
I've seen too many players start going through the PH B making the prepared spell list when they are told to roll initiative!!! Some don't keep track of the spells and the DM keeps having to say "Mark that spell off your sheet." because it's apparent that some people are loosing track of the spells cast.
This way you can cast what ever spell you know and not have to keep track of the spell. Everything else in the D20 system stays the same. Roll init, make attack rolls, make saves. The spell list doesn't change and the character still knows the same number of spells in the same progression you just do not have to keep track of what has been cast.
|
I tried to sway my players to house rule in a new magic system. What I was aiming for was mana points (like power points of psionics). Alas, everyone likes the current approach in 3.5.
That said, we did make one change - cantrips and orisons are unlimited in their usage. So, for a wizard with 4 cantrips a day, he can pick four cantrips and use them indefinitely. For a sorcerer, this kind of sucks early on. Four a day and knows six = four unlimited per day. However, as a sorcerer rises in level, he'll have access to more cantrips than a wizard of a comparable level.
I've seen too many players start going through the PH B making the prepared spell list when they are told to roll initiative!!! Some don't keep track of the spells and the DM keeps having to say "Mark that spell off your sheet." because it's apparent that some people are loosing track of the spells cast.This way you can cast what ever spell you know and not have to keep track of the spell.
Then why not play a sorcerer?
There is an other option : the Midnight or Black Company magic system.
In a word, we forget the bard, the cleric, the sorcerer and the wizard. To cast a spell, we need a feat (perhaps lots of feat). We can create the "erudit class", who gain this feat at first level.
see the channeler class here : http://darknessfalls.leaderdesslok.com/class_channeler.htm
Why not create a skill for each kind of magic : Illusion, Transmutation ... instead of Spellcraft. This skill will not be in Intelligent, but sometimes in Wisdom ou Charism, example :
Skill > Stats
Abjuration > Int
Spells that protect, block, or banish. An abjuration specialist is called an abjurer.
Conjuration > Wis(beacause heal is conjuration, like summon animals, for cleric and druid)
Spells that bring creatures or materials to the caster. A conjuration specialist is called a conjurer.
Divination > Wis
Spells that rveal information. A divination specialist is called a diviner. Unlike the other specialists, a diviner must give up only one other school.
Enchantment > Cha (for the bard spell adn style)
Spells that imbue the recipient with some property or grant the caster power over another being. An enchantment specialist is called an enchanter.
Evocation > Int
Spells that manipulate energy or create something from nothing. An evocation specialist is called an evoker.
Illusion > Cha (for the bard spell and style)
Spells that alter perception or create false images. An illusion specialist is called an illusionist.
Necromancy > Wis (for the evil cleric)
Spells that manipulate, create, or destroy life or life force. A necromancy specialist is called a necromancer.
Transmutation > Int
Spells that transform the recipient physically or change its properties in a more subtle way. A transmutation specialist is called a transmuter.
Universal > ???
So :
Intelligence (Abjuration, Evocation, Transmutation)
Wisdom (Conjuration, Divination, Necromancy)
Charism (Illusion, Enchantement)
rest the Universal school ... maybe use the best of the three ?
And, a specialist gain +2 in the appropriat skill
Question : how about the DC ? I think it could very difficult, maybe 1/5 to sucess a spell.
Stat at 15 (+2), 4 rank in Skill, +2 specialist, so +8 on the roll.
25 could be a good DC ( this character will sucess from 17, so 1/5 chance)
sure : a new system magic is not compatible with the NPC. However, it's comaptible with the monsters without great change : a monster how have a spell 1/day could have the 1/day.
Dragons may be more difficult to change !
I know this discusion was around Mages but I have the same feelings toward Clerics. They are the conduit of their Gods and when they cast a spell they beseech them for their aid. Why so they have to memorize their spells in advance. Well since you did not ask me ahead of time in your daily prayers no you can not do what is necessary to stay alive and continue to serve me. Come on they are gods. You could make it a religon roll to achieve your need 15 + spell level something. Personally I allow clerics to cast whatever spell they require as long as it does not go against their gods teaching. Using cause light wounds in a bar brawl is not acceptable for a good cleric who was fighting a non evil humanoid.
maybe use this rules : http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/rechargeMagic.htm
each spell have a recharge times, and you must wait this times between to spell.
Example : teleport wait 4 hour !
maybe use this rules : http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/rechargeMagic.htm
each spell have a recharge times, and you must wait this times between to spell.
Example : teleport wait 4 hour !
no thank you. too complicated, and to *ahem* *wisper* mmrpg-like
|
|
I think this works fine for combat spells (though backwards compatibility is an issue). The issue I'd have is how it works with non-combat spells (such as teleport).
Ready access to certain non-combat spells can give a GM a major migraine.
Currently when a spellcaster gets teleport or other spells they can cast them several times a day, on at the very next level. If the spell is too powerful to be cast several times a day it may have to be reworked.
As far as backwards compatibility here’s an
..Example of a 5th level 3.5 character
Human Wizard , evoker 5th lv
Str: 11 Int: 17 Hp=6 Ac=12
Dex: 12 Wis: 11 init = +2
Con: 14 Cha: 10
Skills 48 points
Skill Ranks Ability Total
Spellcraft: 8+ 3 =7
Kn Arcana 8+ 3 =7
Tumble 8+ 1 =7
Kn History 8+ 3 =7
Prof Fish 8+ 0 =7
Craft Alchemy 8+ 3 =7
*our topic*
Spells per day // bonus // total
0th ---- 4+ 0 = 4
1st --- 3+ 2 = 5
2nd ---- 2+ = 4
3rd ---- 1+ 2 = 3
* This is a total of 16 spell that have to be written down and kept track of.
What I am suggesting is this…
Human Wizard , evoker 5st lv
Str: 11 Int: 17 Hp=6 Ac=12
Dex: 12 Wis: 11 init = +2
Con: 14 Cha: 10
Skills 48 points
Skill Ranks Ability Total
Spellcraft: 8+ 3 =7
Kn Arcana 8+ 3 =7
Tumble 8+ 1 =7
Kn History 8+ 3 =7
Prof Fish 8+ 0 =7
Craft Alchemy 8+ 3 =7
*our topic* spellcraft + ability == total
Spell caster modifier 8+ 3 = 11
The spell DCs to cast will be static and will not need to be on the character sheet, they just needed the spellcaster modifier . If a person wanted to change back to 3.0 they’d only have to plug in the 3.5 spell chart into that character sheet. The only spells that spell casters have to keep track of are the ones that they know and the ones in their own spell book. Spellcaft is already on the player sheet but just adds a new use of the skill.
it isnt that big of a change as everyone is making it sound (oh god its a different way of doing things, KILL IT!) slap a dc on every spell and a recharge on every duration. the only real footwork is the duration figuring, dc can be level based. I prefer that Wizards are 6+intelligence modifier and have a skill for each school. (this is just a little bit more footwork, but with the current skill system, a easy conversion)
at the very least, using spellcraft and a spell level DC is a solid buy
The current magic system happens to be one of the only relics that WOTC should have killed with their forging of 3rd ed from 2nd ed. The current spell system is horrible for 8 hour days, does not FEEL like magic and takes way from drama (there is no "can I get this very important spell out before I get roasted")spells should be rolled, it is what the die is for, adding the unknown.
I can understand how purist will not like what i have to say, at least im not trying to shove what WOTC is trying to do to the Magic system for 4th ed (I got magic missile, levitate, dispel magic at will, I got fireball once per combat and stoneskin once per day....that is my 7th level casters entire porfolio)
|
|
I think you misunderstand. The problem doesn't arise from being able to cast the spell several times a day. The problem comes from being able to cast the spell several times a day -and- not having any disadvantages for doing so. (To compare, a Sorcerer might take teleport as a spell, but is paying a pretty big cost for doing that.)One option is to raise the target number for such spells -and- create a penalty for failing to make that target number. For example, a Wizard might attempt a teleport 15 times before he makes the roll under your system. Under the change I've offered, the Wizard can't because everytime he fails, something bad happens (anything from teleporting to some random location to getting Con drain).
I think I did misunderstand, now I think I do understand. I like your idea of drain ALOT. It keeps the players from over using high level spells and adds an RPG element of the spellcaster actually being drained and weary thus creating a need to rest rather than resting just to get spells.
But, for the record, I want the magic system largely unchanged, because I like 3.5 and am interested in Pathfinder because of the strongly stated goal of wanting the system to be as backwards compatible with 3.5 as possible.
|
|
This new magic system doesn't change much on the game as far as actual character but just changes how magic is played and the legwork needed to play a spellcaster. Pathfinder is going to be like 3.5 but just by looking at the Alpha playtest wizards have 1d6 for hit points and school powers, they are looking to improve the game. I my self have had and issue with getting the new players to play spellcasters. In many cases new players that want to play a spellcaster because of what they've seen on LOTR or any video game then after they actually play the current system they change their mind and decide to play an easier class. Usually the more experienced RPGer is the person playing the spellcaster.
An idea, a compromise (?) between Vance's system and Skill system.
The spellcaster follow is table progression for spell. He use all his spell for the day, and want to use an other. At this moment, he use the skill system ...
So there isn't problem of adaptation for NPC, and give the PC lot of opportunity.
|
|
Not just starting hit points but regular hitpoints for classes and class features are changing.If a character was created from a the Pathfinder rpg rule book and that player sat in with a group that was still playing 3.5 adjustments will have to be made. All the suggestions here are within the rules of 3.5 but make the game flow better for new players and make more fun for players to play casters. Is the current magic system a good system or is nostalgia driving people to want to stay with it.
As Erik stated, a total revamp to the spell system is not (likely) going to happen with Pathfinder RPG. However, for those looking to go the route of alternate spell systems, a lot of this work has been done for you, playtested, and made open game content. I'd specifically recommend Elements of Magic: Mythic Earth, Legends of Sorcery, and True Sorcery. None of these are perfect systems, but they all have very interesting ideas and are largely compatible with general d20 without requiring too much fiddling in the rest of the system.
I would first mention that if you aren't going to add something constructive to the conversation, maybe you are posting on the wrong thread. No naming names, but I really don't think I need to.
That said, I like the spellcraft check mechanic, but what about failed rolls? IT seems a little unbalanced to allow multiple checks. Say, if you fail your roll, the spell is unavailable until you "rest" and re-learn the spell?
I just see the horrible game breaker of a wizard throwing a delayed blast fireball EVERY round of a 20-30 round combat. Pretty? yes. Impressive? definitely. Balanced...eh...??
While Erik has mentioned that there will be no major changes to the vancian magic system, this thread has provoked a very interesting conversation in terms of what else besides the silly 4E will/encounter/day mechanic. I think I will playtest this myself. Thanks for the awesome ideas everyone! keep em coming!
Me personally I prefered the Spell Point system with the Negative ramifications from the PHBII to the Vancian casting system.
spell points are cool, they just...mess with the flavor you know?
|
|
I would first mention that if you aren't going to add something constructive to the conversation, maybe you are posting on the wrong thread. No naming names, but I really don't think I need to.
First off I apologize if I’ve been offensive toward anyone. I just have a lot of ideas I’d like to add all in hope to help the community make a better version of 3.5. I really like 3.5, I like AC, making saving throws, and having several attacks. Pathfinder stated some things will change and they wanted our input to make something we’ll like. Back to the topic…..
I just see the horrible game breaker of a wizard throwing a delayed blast fireball EVERY round of a 20-30 round combat. Pretty? yes. Impressive? definitely. Balanced...eh...??
The skill system I had in mind was that a 5th level spell had a dc of 60, and a 9th level wizard will have a spellcasting modifier of about +25 ( level + spellcraft ranks + ability mod) , this means the spellcaster will most likely fail the roll. This is ok because the next roll is added to the last roll. This means this caster will spend at least 2 rounds casting this spell leaving him open where an attack can make him loose his spell thus keeping the spellcaster from casting the powerful spells every round and making the easier spells ,magic missile (dc20) or melfs acid arrow(dc30) a more attractive decision.
spell points are cool, they just...mess with the flavor you know?
How so?
Adding additional rolls into the game is only going to slow things down.
I like 4e's concept of "per encounter" spells.
And really, I like the idea of Warlock-like spellcasting where the wizard can just fire of arcane bolts forever. It's really not any more game breaking than a fighter shooting arrows every round, and it gives the wizard something to do when his spells are depleted.
I'd prefer to see something where the wizard gains special abilities every level where he can get new "at will" or "per encounter" spells, or spell-like abilities in addition to his normal allotment of spells.
much simpler.
Souphin, I just love what you've done with the magic system. I realize it may be a bit too much for 3.5 veterans, maybe as an optional sidebar for faster book-keeping.
I'm stealing this for my own campaign one way or another. :P
Thanks!
Regards,
ZOOROOS
I like this idea, Perhaps instead of allowing the caster to simply re-roll the check and keep adding the result, instead have something like Each round that the caster spends casting the lowers the dc by 5 or 10.
The skill system I had in mind was that a 5th level spell had a dc of 60, and a 9th level wizard will have a spellcasting modifier of about +25 ( level + spellcraft ranks + ability mod) , this means the spellcaster will most likely fail the roll.
so the 9th level caster can spend 3 rounds casting the 5th level spell the bring the dc down to 30.
you could also introduce a spell failure chance where the roll is 10 below the dc of the spell being cast, something unexpected happens.
I have always liked the idea of a spell caster magic being tied to there own health in some way, so a spell caster can keep casting spells as long as they have the will and the strength to do so, rather than oh well I have no more magic left for the day.
I like this idea, Perhaps instead of allowing the caster to simply re-roll the check and keep adding the result, instead have something like Each round that the caster spends casting the lowers the dc by 5 or 10.
The skill system I had in mind was that a 5th level spell had a dc of 60, and a 9th level wizard will have a spellcasting modifier of about +25 ( level + spellcraft ranks + ability mod) , this means the spellcaster will most likely fail the roll.
so the 9th level caster can spend 3 rounds casting the 5th level spell the bring the dc down to 30.
you could also introduce a spell failure chance where the roll is 10 below the dc of the spell being cast, something unexpected happens.
I have always liked the idea of a spell caster magic being tied to there own health in some way, so a spell caster can keep casting spells as long as they have the will and the strength to do so, rather than oh well I have no more magic left for the day.
I like where the ideas are going, I really do. Maybe as a way for avoiding constant spellcasting rolls all day long, we could institute 'degrees of failure' and 'degrees of success':
DEGREES OF FAILURE:
Failing by 10 or more = The spell fails, you cannot keep building the energy.
Failing by 15 or more = The spell fails and cannot be used again for the rest of the encounter.
Failing by 20 or more = The spell fails and goes wild, you cannot use it for the rest of the day.
Failing by 30 or more = God help you kiddo...
DEGREES OF SUCCESS:
Succeeding by 10 or more = The spell goes pretty well, the next one you cast of the same type in the following turn gains a DC reduction of 5.
Succeeding by 15 or more = The spell goes exceedingly well, the next spell you cast in the following turn gains a DC reduction of 5.
Succeeding by 20 or more = The spell goes beyond what was initially thought of; the spell provides additional benefits to the caster (I'm lost here, any ideas?)
Succeeding by 30 or more = Earth-shaking spell; the caster creates a magical area around him that provide nearby spellcasters with a DC reduction of 5 for the rest of the encounter. The spell gains a +2 penetration bonus.
Well, what do you think?
Regards,
ZOOROOS
Goods things...
I will use this rules : if the check is fail, a strong creatures appaers and attack the wizard ( nishruu, aoa or astirax from midnight are some possibility ).
The creatures could be a verry strong monster immunate to magic, with RD /magic, etheral and so on
Hm, interesting suggestion. I like this idea, but not exactly in the way you offered.
See, I think the different types of casters SHOULD have different mechanics/flavor. So, while I still see Wizards using the Vancian system, this system suits Sorcerers to a 'T'. Wizards study & prepare, Sorcerers just do it until it works.
Clerics, on the other hand, should have something similar to a spell point system. Their Deities give them power based on their level/loyalty and trust them to use it as they see fit...in accordance with the Deity's will, of course.
[edited because I cannot type]
|
|
I first though of this way to cast spells as an alternate way of casting so that wizards wouldn’t have to write down every single spell that they are casting for that day. This can end up being annoying when you have players who don’t keep up with doing this. But keeping the vancian system for wizards is a great idea. But instead of writing every spell that is to be cast for that day the wizard can cast like a sorcerer does now, the wizard is just limited to the spells that are in that wizard’s spellbook. Druids, Clerics, Bards and other classes can go either way base on skill ranks: Kn. Religion, perform or Kn. Nature lore, added to the spellcasting modifier, cha, Wis or int. Or those classes can just use the vancian system.
Zooroos the degrees of success or failure are a good idea but under this system higher level spell have a dc that has spell caster is intended to fail showing that it takes more than 6 seconds to cast the spell, example 9th level meteor swarm is a dc100 to cast and a 20th level sorcerer would have 23 ranks in spellcraft and maybe a +10 cha that’s a total of spellcaster modifier 53, the system expects a 12 second meteor swarm and a degrees of failure would hurt too much, well maybe not being that this is a meteor swarm every 12 seconds. A penalty, but maybe not totally loosing the spell. But I like the degrees of success, they’re like a metamagic feat making the effort to cast the spell higher but getting a really cool result for doing so. I like it a lot.
Ps how is the skill system doing in your campaign?
|
|
Souphin,
this system seems almost identical to the magic system in D20 Thieves' World series -- you might want to take a look at it. I would also want to see spells being cast with Spellcraft checks, but that would probably need you to eliminate Saving Throws and/or Ranged Attack/Ranged Touch Attack rolls from the magic system (i.e. all spells would be "auto-hit").
|
|
Souphin,
this system seems almost identical to the magic system in D20 Thieves' World series -- you might want to take a look at it. I would also want to see spells being cast with Spellcraft checks, but that would probably need you to eliminate Saving Throws and/or Ranged Attack/Ranged Touch Attack rolls from the magic system (i.e. all spells would be "auto-hit").
I'll check check that system but many of the people who wish to keep with the 3.5 type of gameplay and want to keep saving throws. I think ranged and touch attacks should be based off of the spellcaster's ability for spells rather than they're ranged atack, like BAB + int, but that is just my opinion and I understand why other may not like that. The system I'm stating just has a DC to pull off a spell, this is to keep spellcasters from doing high level spells round after round and to keeps all players including the DM from having to keep track of spells cast. Once the spell is finished the effect is the same effect as what ever is in the 3.5 players handbook.