My turn to DM is coming up and I was planning to run a Shackled City campaign. It's the only AP I've read, though, so I was wondering if another one might be a better choice for what could be our last dance. I didn't want to spoil the others in case an opportunity came up for me to play in one. But with Paizo sticking to 3.5x and my group planning to at least give 4E a shot, it might be a while before we play another AP. Any thoughts?
If you can keep spoilers to a minimum, I'm interested to know which AP is the most fun to play and/or DM. I'm also curious about which one is most suited to a live game as opposed to PbP, and, actually, which one just makes the best reading material.
Thanks!
I've played Shackled City and Savage Tide, and read Rise of the Runelords and am starting to read Age of Worms.
I definitely prefer STAP over SCAP. I liked how RotRL started, but interest waned. I really like what I've read so far of AoW, including the overall synopsis of all the adventures in the AoW Overload.
Sorry to use so many acronym - it's a lot easier to type. Hope this helps a little.
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My turn to DM is coming up and I was planning to run a Shackled City campaign. It's the only AP I've read, though, so I was wondering if another one might be a better choice for what could be our last dance. I didn't want to spoil the others in case an opportunity came up for me to play in one. But with Paizo sticking to 3.5x and my group planning to at least give 4E a shot, it might be a while before we play another AP. Any thoughts?
If you can keep spoilers to a minimum, I'm interested to know which AP is the most fun to play and/or DM. I'm also curious about which one is most suited to a live game as opposed to PbP, and, actually, which one just makes the best reading material.
Thanks!
I think it would be dependent upon your group, what style of play they enjoy, what characters they'd like to play, and a few other factors. Can you tell us more about your group, etc.? That might make it easier to give feedback (since the answer about which is most fun would be based on their personal likes and dislikes).
Thanks for the comments Chris. The acronyms are no problem. Was there any specific reason you didn't like Shackled City, or was Savage Tide just that much better?
I think it would be dependent upon your group, what style of play they enjoy, what characters they'd like to play, and a few other factors. Can you tell us more about your group, etc.? That might make it easier to give feedback (since the answer about which is most fun would be based on their personal likes and dislikes).
Player 1: Psion
He's usually the DM and really focuses on role-playing when he's a PC. He's very strong tactically, but doesn't usually make a character that takes advantage of that. He lets others play their characters and doesn't act as a board general.Player 2: Priest of Wee Jas
She enjoys role-playing but will min/max her character in order to be effective in combat. She's not very tactical though and will usually just try be effective in a straight-forward way. She's really afraid of her character dying.
Player 3: Monk (tentative)
He's going to sit out the first few sessions because of a really hectic work schedule, but will likely join in at some point during the first adventure. He tries to be tactical, but does not know the rules that well, and does not always pay attention to what other characters are doing in combat. So his plans do not always work out as intended. He doesn't especially like exploring dungeons, but I think there's enough backstory written into the Shackled City dungeons that he will enjoy them, especially the frog lair. Maybe not the first one (jzadirune) since there are a lot of empty rooms and not necessarily much interaction with the enemies, but he might miss the bulk of that one anyway.
Player 4: unknown
She is currently not planning to play because she wants to spend more time with her new boyfriend. This might change at some point, and we might actually get two players if her boyfriend decides to join in. I've only played one campaign with and she played a barbarian. Her favorite thing to do was to rush blindly into a hopeless situation, forcing the rest of the party to try and save her butt. Which sometimes worked. She also had a habit of jumping into my Walls of Fire and getting knocked unconscious in the burn zone.
It looks like we're going to be a small group, but I actually prefer that in a live game. I think it gets stressful with more than four players when people start fighting over floor time and DM attention. To give them a fighting chance, I'm going to start all the PCs at Level 2 with max hit points using a 32-point buy system for generating ability scores. There will be opportunities for NPCs to join the party temporarily, but they won't be forced on the group. I might scale down a few of the encounters if I think party size will be a problem.
As a DM, here are the kinds of things I'm looking for:
- adventures that are fun to read
- cohesive story that the PCs play a significant role in developing
- campaign arcs that are not just behind the scenes
- minimal PC railroading
- interesting monsters/foes
- well-developed NPCs and NPC motivations
- varied and unique settings
Shackled City has an issue with a lot of things going on that the PCs don't really know about. I was planning to modify the AP slightly in order to make the players feel more vested in the plot. Obviously, it would be nice if this was done for me, but it's not the end of the world.
Of the APs so far published in their entirety (Shackled City, Age of Worms, Savage Tide, and Rise of the Runelords), they all have strengths and weaknesses. They also each appeal more to different groups. My impressions of them are below, along with links to the discussion groups for each path.
Shackled City: A decent city-based AP that is suited for a "traditional" Good vs. Evil style of play. The overarching plot is not as strongly presented as it could be, leaving some of the individual AP segements feeling a little disjointed. Also, the city of Cauldron could use some more development to provide the players a sense of involvement. Both of these are easily overcome with a little work from the DM, though.
Age of Worms: This AP focuses on "classic" dungeon-based adventures (with some deviations) and features undead as the signature monster type. The first installment, "The Whispering Cairn," is one of the best 1st level adventures ever written, IMO. The overarching plot is better presented, but doesn't become central to the adventures until the second half of the AP. The party will likely lack a "home base" for much of the AP, so the DM may have to put some more work into making the NPCs appealing.
Savage Tide: This AP focuses on swashbuckling waterborne adventuring and exploration. The AP starts in a city, but will soon leave. The adventures take place in a wide variety of environments and social interaction is much more important than the first two APs. The overarching plot is more tightly integrated into the adventures and the NPCs, including their relationship with the party, have a central role in how the AP develops. The AP is not well suited for morally "straight and narrow" characters, though.
Rise of the Runelords: This AP is the first set in Paizo's world of Golarion and features a lot of background material that may or may not suit a particular group. Each adventure was designed to be highly modular, so the plot is less tightly integrated than with Savage Tide. There is a good variety of locations and opponents. However, the atmosphere of each segment is where this AP really shines, IMO. The AP also ends before reaching 20th level, which again may not suit all groups.
Of the three Dungeon APs, Savage Tide is easily my favorite. It covers a broad span of time, involves a lot of exploration versus dungeon crawl, and definitely allows for some interesting character involvement in the plot. For the morally ambiguous bit, my players haven't gotten their yet but the entire party is Good, and many are Lawful. I plan on altering aspects of the latter modules to allow them alternatives to sacrificing their moral/ethical standards. The choices will revolve around personal sacrifice instead--they'll have the options presented in the AP as the "easy path" to success, but will also have harder options tied into their back-stories.
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With the characters you have, I'd not recommend Age of Worms. I love the campaign (and, on a level playing field, it would be my first choice). However, a psion may be very underpowered in many of the adventures depending upon which powers he/she takes. If you're willing to accommodate both the psion and the smaller group size, however, it's by far my favorite so far. Age of Worms is a blast to read, too.
Of the three remaining APs, I'd recommend the Rise of the Runelords first, Savage Tide second, and Shackled City last.
Based on your criteria, here are my thoughts:
- adventures that are fun to read (1-AoW, 2-RotR)
- cohesive story that the PCs play a significant role in developing (1-AoW, 2-ST)
- campaign arcs that are not just behind the scenes (1-AoW,
- minimal PC railroading (This is tough, because they are all "paths." I'd say RotR and SC are pretty open, though.)
- interesting monsters/foes (1- RotR, 2-AoW, 3-SC)
- well-developed NPCs and NPC motivations (1-RotR, 2-AoW)
- varied and unique settings (1- RotR, 2-SC/ST)
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Savage Tide was by far my favourite of the APs. I can't speak for Rise of the Runelords as I only read the first two.
Savage Tide has a wonderful variety of adventures from urban, sea-voyage, jungle/wilderness, dungeons and the Abyss. That and it has pirates and dinosaurs. With very little work you could even add in ninjas if you wanted. The variety and scope I think is really what struck me with this AP and helps keep player interest from waning.
A lot of fun to run.
As per the note re moral ambiguity. I'm sorry but I can only say respectfully bosh to that. A paladin that has to make an alliance with one evil to stem a greater evil is not in danger of losing their faith/paladinship. A paladin that allows his own arrogance and pride to cause evil to triumph is in danger. The choices an LG character will make in the adventure are hard choices but not ones that are necessarily going to cause them to turn to the dark side (depends on how the player wants to play that out I suppose).
Was there any specific reason you didn't like Shackled City, or was Savage Tide just that much better?
I found Shackled City too disjointed and overpowering for my group, although admittedly the first adventure was awesome in its own right.
Savage Tide had a lot of locals, some good recurring villians, and just overall connected better.
But like others have said, it really depends on your particular group. I liked Savage Tide because the overarcing story moved along well. But Shackled City has some interesting items in it for sure.
You can't lose. AoW is my least favorite from a railroading point of view, but my favorite for setting, NPCs and locations. However three is a small group for some of the situations, and there is the potential for a lot of rollplaying in certain parts.
SCaP will take more work for you to do but is a hoot to play. Search these boards to find lots of great ideas to make the SCaP more dynamic, personal and engaging. There are some looong dungeons in it though. Lilith could probably point you to them.
Haven't played STaP, or RotR. Really like RotR though.
To add my $.02 into the discussion..
You really can't go wrong with any of these paths. They're all excellent, though the focal points of each path are different.
IMO, I rank the adventure paths thusly:
1) Savage Tide: The pinnacle of the AP's. There's a strong arc present throughout the path, linking all the modules together, yet there's still enough room to insert stuff specific to each campaign. Additionally, the NPC's are truly standout (even more so than in Shackled City!!.
My few qualms?
As mentioned, Lawful and/or Good characters may have a rough go of it as the campaign progresses; there are a few "Damned if you do/ Damned if you don't" moments.
Also, I don't feel they played up the threat of the Shadow Pearls.. They're the main threat the players are trying to combat, but they really only play a role in 2 of the 12 modules.
2 Age of Worms: As close to "Classic" D+D as you can get, this path really shines. A heavy focus on combat (especially with the Undead), but you still have the RP'ing elements, too. And, (as mentioned) one of the best 1st level modules I've ever read.
Qualms?
The early modules only loosely tie toghether, and seem to vary in power levels. ("Blackwall Keep" seems [IMHO] somewhat underpowered for characters of that level. And "THree Facesof Evil" has receveied MORE than it's share of criticism, so I would be prepared to make some changes based on your group.
3. Rise of the Runlords; Definteily a learning curve, as Paizo launhes the Pathfinder line. The modules each have a distinct feel to them, which is good, though they sometimes link together only tenously. There's ALOT of interesting RP'ing elements in each, though (it's WELL worth your time to flesh out Sandpoint and it's NPC's!!!), so if your group is into real RP'ing this may be the path for you.
4.Shackled CIty: Both the best and worst of the AP's. The enthusiasm present in creating this path really shines through and covers up some of the weaker points in the path.
Again,worth your time to flesh out the NPC's and locations, as most of the campaign takes place in the city of Cauldron. (The HC does a reasonable job of indexing NPC's and sites, but you may want to check the boards for additional thoughts.)
There's lots more to say about each, but my fingers are getting tired. :)
Let us know what you decide on!!
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I am currently running ST [since fall '06, now in part 5 of 12, slowed by my putting in two other adventures which I had that fit] and RoRL [since Jan '08, still in part 1 of 6]. Both groups used 32 point PCs. ST has five PCs and I really felt they need that many. RoRL has four and so far they are doing OK, [maybe because it is designed for standard point buy]. Never considered SC, and the group now playing RoRL tried AoW but it just did not seem interesting. They really got into RoRL, however.
ST has been really fun, the most fun I've had DMing in a long time, and that is saying something cause two of the players actually played in a ten year campaign semi-home brewed with Dungeon mag supplements. ST has brought out/forced them to be Role Players. Having a clear story line with ample RPing opportunities makes a difference. Also, some important choices have to be made which affect the future of the plot. One problem is brought on by the absence of a cleric in the group. This has a far reaching story line with travel, land, sea, underground and well, you'll see . .. Highly recommended. But you will need to tweak things with only three PCs.
RoRL is off to a strong start. The beginning village is well fleshed out with room for more. Good RPing ops at the start set the stage for what will follow in the next installments. The second part is very inventive, IMO. Things are not telegraphed, and the NPCs have lives. This AP is more directed than ST. I am finding this one fun as well, and looking forward to its future. It has improved our Friday night game.
Bottom line. If your group is into the RPing part, and/or that is what you look for to get things going, either ST or RoRL will work for you. RoRL can be done with fewer PCs, story line is more directed. ST has ample RPing ops, is tougher, with more PC directed plot.
Wow, thanks for the great info guys!
I'm going to rule out Age of Worms because I'm actually a PC in an Age of Worms campaign on this site. I probably should have mentioned that before, but it's nice to get people's feedback on it and I'm even more psyched to get to the bottom of this cairn we're exploring :)
I think I will decide between Shackled City and Savage Tide. RotR sounds great, but my players know Greyhawk fairly well and are keen on playing in that setting. I could convince them to switch, but considering the other APs are also getting great reviews, I don't see the need. From what you guys have said, ST seems like the way to go. I'm a little reluctant to give up on SC though since I've already read through it and really like some of the adventures, especially Life's Bazaar and Zenith Trajectory (I think they would love exploring the Kuo-Toa stronghold). I also think the Cleric's decision to worship Wee Jas will play an interesting role in the plot given the temple's allegiance to the Cagewrights.
I think in the end, I'll give the players the choice of playing in city-based campaign or one of exploration. If it were me, I'd want to play Savage Tide, but as a DM I'd be happy running either so I'll see what they say.
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Rise of the Runelords is full of atmosphere and great setpeices. Sandpoint in particular is the perfect hometown, though you wind up leaving it for much of the campaign. You fight lots of wizards and other casters. #4 kind of wanes a bit. it's certainly the weakest adventure of the lot. Each adventure is tightly themed, you see. #1 is a perfect little 1st-level adventure full of gremlins-style goblins, an evil party of adventurers, betrayal and heart-wrenching tragedy, great NPCs, and a dungeon inside a giant stone head. #2 has dawn of the dead ghouls, a haunted house, sicko kill-cultists with straight razors, and a murderous BBEG. #3 has wilderness, hillbilly ogres, messed up s&#*, an epic battle to re-take a fort, fighting trolls on a giant bridge, a massive sea-monster, and so on. #4 is an old-school slugfest against the giants. #5 is a classic massive dungeon (a sort of leftover research facility, like Black Mesa) full of factions and traps. #6 is a haunted cabin, the wendigo, an ancient lost city full of monsterous NPCs, and a final battle vs an epic archamge transmuter.
Age of worms has Undead. Lots and Lots of undead. I've read it, and it seems good. Very old-school, but in a good way. dungeons, and lots of them, but populated with very interesting monsters and encounters.