Agile Maneuver, page 32, and some other feats in balance

[Zebeyana]

Ok then, I'll use my Dexterity instead of my Strength to :

• Trip or Grapple : ok.
• Overrun : I can live with that, though it seems moving through an opponent's space by means of Dexterity is already covered with Tumble skill.
• Sunder : this is starting to be funny !
• Bull rush : oh my… !

Most of the time, I understand why I could use Dexterity to defend against these maneuvers, but to perform them using your Dexterity bonus seems rather blunt.

As for Disarming, combat-heavy rogues and fighters built on high Dexterity scores now need another feat to resist disarm with their weapons besides Weapon Finesse.
You may argue, since you removed the Combat Expertise pre-requesite from your printing of Improved Disarm, this is equivalent, but most rogues will still need Combat Expertise as a pre-requesite for Improved Feint since you didn't alter it (yet !).

All in all, this needs some fixing.

[JoelF847]

Actually, it's not too hard to see where Dex could be used to help in sunder and bull rushes. For sundering, a dex based approach is more based on precision at targeting the most vulnerable part of an object, say where the blade of a sword meets the hilt, or right under the axehead on the shaft - the more accurate you are hitting that spot, the easier it is to break. You still need good Str to do enough damage to overcome hardness and do some hp damage.

For bull rush, the reason that these don't succeed all the time is because the defender braces themselves against being pushed in a direction. A dex based approach is to move in to bull rush, let the defender brace themselves, and then change the angle of your attack just enough to push the defender in a slightly different direction, where their bracing isn't as effective. I've used similar techniques in ju-jitsu often.

[Tarren Dei]

Zebeyana wrote:

Bull rush : oh my… !

Most of the time, I understand why I could use Dexterity to defend against these maneuvers, but to perform them using your Dexterity bonus seems rather blunt.

Having been knocked flat on my ass in a martial arts class by a young woman a foot shorter than me, I would like to believe that dexterity could be useful in a bull rush.

[Hsuperman]

Zebeyana wrote:

As for Disarming, combat-heavy rogues and fighters built on high Dexterity scores now need another feat to resist disarm with their weapons besides Weapon Finesse.

So, it's true then that you need Agile Maneuver to get Dex bonus for combat maneuvers (like trip, disarm, etc.) AS WELL AS Weapon Finesse to get Dex bonus to tripping/disarming weapons (like a whip). That seems kind of... inefficient. Taking Weapon Finesse in D&D 3.5 allowed you to add the Dex bonus to attacks and trip/disarm attempts, right? Why not keep it like that?

[gr1bble]

Hsuperman wrote:

Taking Weapon Finesse in D&D 3.5 allowed you to add the Dex bonus to attacks and trip/disarm attempts, right? Why not keep it like that?

Actually, I'm not sure it did in 3.5, but I definitely agree it should in PRPG (though I sort of have to seeing as I suggested it in another thread...).

In PRPG, I think Weapon Finesse should allow you to use your Dex modifier instead of your Str modifier for:
1) attack rolls with "finessable" weapons.
2) CMB for defence.

Hmmm... and how about the concept of "finessable" Combat Maneuvers as well? Then it could also apply to:
3) CMB for attack rolls with "finessable" Combat Maneuvers?

[David Jackson 60]

I would like to agree with the statements on bull rush and dexterity.

Ever seen a 220lb linebacker knock a 350lb lineman into the backfield and mess up a running play? Chances are it's because he caught him before the lineman could get his feet set in regards the the angle he was comming from or the lineman beat him off the snap.

In a fight this would be even more drastic, because a person fighting doesn't typically lean that much weight forward in anticipation of a rush unless they clearly see it comming.