Arcane Schools and Wizard Advancement


Combat & Magic

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

I like the idea of arcane schools, but I think they could be even better if they didn't rely so heavily on 1/day spell-like abilities. A 1/day spell-like ability is essentially just another spell spot.

Instead, I suggest granting school powers at the same rate as domain powers (one each on 1st, 2nd, 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level), but making each of them more powerful. Also, as many powers as possible for each school should be usable either at will or continuously. That would make each school power feel different than "just another spell slot."

Spoiler:
And as an added bonus, this could be combined with a minor tweaking of the wizard bonus feats to make the class progression more aesthetically pleasant. If feats are awarded on 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level, then the wizard gains one and only one class ability on every even level. No overlaps and no stray bonus feats appearing on random odd levels.

But I'm probably the only one who cares about something as silly as that, so please judge my proposal on the merits of its non-spoilerized text!

The Exchange

I agree here. I understand why it has been done - to balance out the universalist and specialist mages, particularly in the face of a number of other tweaks, and to boost them in the face of their perceived (by JJ, among others, though I don't personally agree) weakness. But the way it has been done fails a bit, for a number of reasons:

- as the OP says, most of these are really just extra spell slots. Which slightly begs the question as to why anyone bothered to do this and why they just didn't give the universalists an extra spell slot and leave the specialists with the extra spell slots they used to have.
- rather than being able top put what they want in those slots, the wizards now have fixed spell-like abilities. I personally dislike this for a number of reasons.

1. Primarily, because being a wizard is about versatility - by giving them a fixed power, this actually makes them feel a lot more sorcerer-like, and therefore detracts from the flavour.

2. The actual choices feel quite arbitrary. For example, the first Conjuration power is a Mage Armour variant. Now, while Mage Armour is an iconic spell it is not an iconic Conjuration spell (I think it only became Conjuration with the 3.5 revision of the spell schools) and in any case, to me, doesn't feel like the fundamental point of being a conjurer, which is summoning creatures and, to a lesser extent, things. Similarly, one of the higher level Conjuration powers is Wall of Iron. None of my guys ever cast that, it is hardly mentioned in any other scenarios and so on I have read. So iconic it has to be a 1/day spell-like ability? Hardly. The spell schools are, to a large extent, a random grab-bag of spells which are related to a greater, lesser or even highly unclear way (telekinesis = Transmutation? well, maybe but hardly obvious). So just going through the spell-lists of the appropriate level and picking one doesn't seem a very sound basis for determining the school powers at each level.

My preference would be if they allowed greater flexibility in casting, rather than just handing out random but specific spells disguised as spell-like abilities. Maybe something that facilitates the application of metamagic for the chosen school, and hinders it for those which are forbidden (oh, and since they aren't "forbidden", that is another bit of nomenclature that might need to change) would be preferable. I really don't want to see these spell-like abilities in the final version - they just feel really un-wizardly in the execution. The point of being a wizard is the flexibility - this should be embraced and enhanced in the rules, not restricted with rather poorly-chosen abilities that are just spell slots by another name.

Dark Archive

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Is it me or are the specialist first level abilities too powerful. Ray's etc that appear to have no limit per day? Or have I misread it?

Wizards have already got the power up of 0 level spells being done differently (and I like that change) but continual casting of rays? That'd kill something like the the RotRL goblin raid dead. Touch AC's etc are easy to hit so an Evoker would be killing a goblin a round with their specialism. (Smacks of one of the things I didn't like about 4th Ed. ironically).

All of these should be limited times per day, preferably once.


i kinda like the ray ability gives them a simple but effective combat options I've been letting my sorcerers do this for years.

The Exchange

I think the 0-level spell as usable-anytime spell-like abilities is a cool change, as it gives a reason for bothering to learn them (and a 20th level wizard unable to detect magic or read scrolls at will is just dumb). I just think that piling on more as you go up levels lacks a bit of imagination, is arbitrary in execution (which ones do you choose?) and (my main dislike) clashes with the flavour of being a wizard (who prepares spells, but doesn't generally get flashy spell-like abilities).

As I say above, I would much prefer the changes to be ways to alter spells - maybe giving a higher level evoker ways to alter the shapes of area-effect spells, for example, or amending durations or improving the application of metamagic spells - than just slapping out some random spell-like abilities.

Scarab Sages

I agree. I really like the abilities that don't duplicate existing spells (hand of the apprentice is very cool and flavorful), but I don't care for the ones that duplicate spells. I want to pick my own spells, not have them chosen for me. For instance, I HATE fireball. I don't want that spell, but if I play a Universalist, I have to have it as a spell-like ability (I know I could just not cast it, but that's not the point).

I would much rather see some of the suggestions on this thread. Add some interesting abilities, but don't just add mandatory spell slots disguised as abilities.


Moab wrote:
I would much rather see some of the suggestions on this thread. Add some interesting abilities, but don't just add mandatory spell slots disguised as abilities.

Actually, I like the fixed spell-like abilities; it's reminiscent of the Domain Wizard variant from Unearthed Arcana. Remember -- the wizard is getting a big boost from being able to cast spells from "prohibited" schools, so the spell-like abilities shouldn't be as powerful as regular spell slots; otherwise it's just a straight power boost over the 3.5 wizard.

Scarab Sages

You're right that wizards are getting a big boost, and that a free slot at each level would be too much. I would be fine with far less frequent abilities that improve their spellcasting or give them a new option rather than just adding another (pre-determined) spell to their repertoire.

The Exchange

I'm not convinced that the wizard changes have been fully thought through. I would be in favour of adding restrictions, so that:

- a specialist cannot apply metamagic to spells in prohibited (is "restricted" a better term?) schools, as well as the other restrictions
- when they apply metamagic to spells in their specialist school, they can treat the added levels as one less than normal, and only if they haven't memorised any prohibited spells

I have no idea if this is sensible or stupid from a power-levels perspective, but it would encourage the use of metamagic feats which, in my experience, tend to get little use. Where this leaves universalist wizards I'm not sure either, but possibly a universalist can gain the metamagic benefit on a single spell per level.

I would also suggest maybe adding options to how specialist can cast spells. I mentioned above that an evoker could, at higher levels, manipulate the shape of area effect spells. A conjurer could extend the length of service for conjured creatures, or maybe make permanent the conjuration of items. An illusionist could extend the length of time an illusion last after concentration, and so on. These ideas are all ripped off from some of the powers granted in the Alpha as it is, but they haven't been fully developed, being quick knock-offs mixed in among the spell-like abilities. I'd like to see these developed more coherently.

Caveat: I love most of what is in the Alpha. The only thing which bothers me are the school powers for wizards. But they really bother me and strike a wrong note, as far as I am concerned, in how wizards should work.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

Aubrey the Malformed wrote:
I would also suggest maybe adding options to how specialist can cast spells. I mentioned above that an evoker could, at higher levels, manipulate the shape of area effect spells. A conjurer could extend the length of service for conjured creatures, or maybe make permanent the conjuration of items. An illusionist could extend the length of time an illusion last after concentration, and so on.

I think this idea is worth exploring. As I suggested above, have fewer abilities, but make them more interesting, just like the ones you suggest.

Instead of spell-like abilities, I could see an enchanter gaining an Enchanting Voice that eliminates somatic components for all enchantment spells, for example. Or a necromancer of a certain level gaining temporary hit points for casting necromancy spells. Or benefits that resemble Reserve Feats.

If most spell-like abilities that mimic 'iconic' specialty spells were instead replaced with continuous abilities that encourage the use of 'iconic' specialty spells, you might not even need opposed schools anymore. Specialists would favor specialty spells without needing any restrictions placed on spell selection.

That's the sort of thing I was thinking when I proposed condensing the long lists of spell-like abilities into fewer but more interesting at will or continuous powers. A change along those lines would require playtesting, of course, but I think it's at least worth considering.


Aubrey the Malformed wrote:


- a specialist cannot apply metamagic to spells in prohibited (is "restricted" a better term?) schools, as well as the other restrictions

I think it should be taken the extra step and the schools should truly be prohibited.

That said, I think universalists should be given the "weakest" chain of school abilities.

I also have to agree that the spell/times per day progression that is presently being implemented isn't exactly what I think we need. I would prefer to see the schools broken down like this:

Every school has two special powers. One ability that is flat or levels based on class levels, not subsequent school ability gains (diviners are never surprised, necromancers control X HD worth of undead per wizard level). The other ability would level in some way proportional to the school ability gain (evokers have a ranged force attack at their BAB+Int modifier that does 1d6 at 1st, 2d6 at 4th, 3d6 at 8th; abjurers create a ward that give them +1 to AC at 1st, +2 at 4th, +3 at 8th). One of the two abilities should be combat applicable, but both can be if it is school appropriate. Sure, the evokers would probably be more adventurer friendly than the diviners, but really, shouldn't they be?

BTW, I totally think the current Necromancer undead ability needs to be nerfed, I just picked it as an easy example.

Sovereign Court

I like the ideas that are being done so far, however I also like the idea of their being spells that a specialist can't cast (i.e. forbidden schools)

Trent
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