If psionics were redesigned to be equally powerful to arcane & divine magic (including the removal of the point-based system that's so open to abuse), but the flavor was retained... would fans of psionics still want them in the game?
Suggestion: Put up a survey asking this very question. If results a positive, have a public beta test of some of the core classes (psion/wilder/soul knife).
If psionics were redesigned to be equally powerful to arcane & divine magic (including the removal of the point-based system that's so open to abuse), but the flavor was retained... would fans of psionics still want them in the game? I would. But I'm not sure that sentiment would be shared by many fans of psionics.
I would too! Put it to a Poll!
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If psionics were redesigned to be equally powerful to arcane & divine magic (including the removal of the point-based system that's so open to abuse), but the flavor was retained... would fans of psionics still want them in the game?
I want psionics to be part of Pathfinder for both characters and monsters.
I do not want to jetison the existing point system as I would need to convert a lot of material to move to a Vancian model (I have content from Green Ronin, Dreamscarred Press, Ronin Arts, Paradigm, Malhavoc and Mongoose that is compatible with the point system.)
However, if removing the point system were the only option to keeping psionics then I would do the conversion... and hope that Dreamscarred Press also moved in that way since they seem to be the primary supporters of psionic material.
Creative Director
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If psionics were redesigned to be equally powerful to arcane & divine magic (including the removal of the point-based system that's so open to abuse), but the flavor was retained... would fans of psionics still want them in the game?Suggestion: Put up a survey asking this very question. If results a positive, have a public beta test of some of the core classes (psion/wilder/soul knife).
Maybe someday. We don't have capacity right now to add anything like a public beta test of eve more rules. Ask again in a year. MAYBE in six months.
Maybe someday.
Ops, I mean that suggestion for like when you guys get around to doing a psionics book.
I have content from Green Ronin, Dreamscarred Press, Ronin Arts, Paradigm, Malhavoc and Mongoose that is compatible with the point system.
Just for argument sake, what would need converted over? Classes would be done in Pathfinder book. So NPC stats would need some touch up. Powers would be at the same level, but the additional power point for overpowering would need to be handled in a way that it can be eyeballed (like maybe a class feature where you have x points per day to overpower any psionic feat). Whatelse would need to be changed?
Hmm... Pretty good, on the low fantasy. On high fantasy however, not so much. It actually has nothing to do with magic. High Fantasy as identified in most writer sources has to deal with the high struggle of good versus evil and cosmic world ending struggle. Dragonlance is the only one that even closely falls into High Fantasy. Other good examples are the Wheel of Time and the Chronicles of Narnia.
The feel is the ultimate battles of Good versus Evil, and the hero is the focus of all moral purity.What you described is more heroic fantasy in a high magic setting. Morality doesn't really play a part in the realms, even less so in Eberron or Greyhawk. Rarely are the heroes adventures going to change the shape of reality, and that's good. Really, how boring is it to keep saving the world?
Now as I said before, are Psionics "High Fantasy"? NO, because its very nature keeps them from traveling far beyond the personal. Is it Heroic? It can be, due to the fact that Psionics are about how the individual handles them. It it fun? well, as far as I am concerned it is.
Now, for the big one. Should Psionics be a part of the main book? No, but it should be a supplement.
James
Thanks for the clarification, James. You can see where I fell into the false dichotomy of low fantasy/low magic and high fantasy/high magic :)
One thing I would like to see psionics wise is something other than the 3.X "spell point" system of using them.
I love psionics =). However, I agree. I wish they used a system that was similar to standard magic. Spell-like abililites and at will powers (such as the wizard schools) seem to be a very viable and certainly easier way to do things.
Then again, as much as I like them, I don't hink psionics should be in the core rules themselves. They should be a seperate book for two reasons. I get the feeling psionics are not prevelant in most or all of Golarion (thus should not be part of the core mechanics for them) and they are not present in all or most of the fantasy trope.
Now when the gazeteers start moving more east into the "asian" and "near eastern" areas, I expect to see a companion book for psionics (spell-like abilities, more in-line with the vancian spells hopefully).
I'm out of coppers, so you'll have to take my two silvers instead =).
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This is a very interesting list... and as someone who likes psionics but not the way they've been dealt with rules-wise... here's how I would address the concerns of your list.
10) Psionics is sci-fi, not fantasyI disagree; there's been plenty of mind-control type stuff in fantasy before; you can actually play most of the monk's abilities off as a form of psionics, for example. You can even say that the sorcerer's inborn magical ability is psionics. And even then... there IS a pretty large dose of sci-fi in the game already, and certainly in Golarion there's elements of science fiction. Excluding ideas because they're more commonly seen in science fiction is unnecessarily limiting (but at the same point... sci-fi elements MUST fit the themes of Golarion before they get in there!).
I am glad to see that this belief is not shared by someone on the Paizo staff (and I'm pretty sure that the EIC is not the only one that feels this way). I've been fed up with this viewpoint for sometime, as this belief shows closed-minded thinking. And I say this not to begin a flame war...the truth is ugly, but, it is what it is.
I could get behind a Vancian version of the psionics system, as it could go a long way to making psionics accessible to everyone. And in the end that's what we should strive for.It's no longer a question of getting psionics into the core book; that ship has sailed this much is clear. I think what we should focus on now is what can be done to make psionics a more accesible system. How can we make the current point-based psionics system more in line with a Vancian model?
Any suggestions?
But psions are much, much better at it. I think it still is a problem with other casters, but in my experience a psionic character is just better if the party has one or two fights per day because of the way their powers work.
That's true. One could equally say that a wizard is just better if the party has five or six fights per day because of the way their powers work (e.g. a wizard's spells naturally scale with caster level).
It's really campaign-dependent in my experience. I've played a psion in both types of situations: one in which we had many encounters with weak opponents, and one in which we had few encounters with strong opponents. The psion was much more powerful in the latter case than in the former.
To answer James's question about psionics: if you get rid of the point-based system, then I might as well play a sorcerer/warmage/beguiler/etc. In fact, I'm currently playing both a sorcerer and a beguiler with the Versatile Spellcaster feat because that gives some of the point-based versatility I like (i.e., you can cast more high-level spells by sacrificing low-level spell levels).
One thing I would like to see psionics wise is something other than the 3.X "spell point" system of using them.I love psionics =). However, I agree. I wish they used a system that was similar to standard magic. Spell-like abililites and at will powers (such as the wizard schools) seem to be a very viable and certainly easier way to do things.
I'm on the opposite end, I love the fact that psionics is point-based and works different than arcane and divine magic (if I had my druthers, I'd have those two working differently as well, but I'm too traditional to take that leap anytime soon).
Not to 4e-bash, this is just my subjective opinion, but one of the big turn offs for me about 4e is the fact that all of the classes pretty much resource manage the same. I LOVE the fact that wizards and sorcerers and psions and binders and etc. all actually play differently (and fighters and barbarians and rogues even more different).
I'll admit having them resource manage differently makes it more difficult to perfectly balance across all situations, but the only way to get them to perfectly balance like that is to have them all resource manage identically like they do in 4e, which seems to take a lot of the fun variation out of the game. In my experience, there are different circumstances where each of the resource management styles excel and lack, so that overall if you vary the kinds of encounters and encounters per day, etc. then they balance out very nicely over time.
So, to me, point-based resource management is integral to psionics, as is the wizard's "fire and forget" Vancian casting. I'm fine with mixing a few other things in there (like giving wizards some at-will low level stuff, or better recovery options), but at the core, to me at least, having different forms of resource management adds a lot of fun and interesting variety to the game and is far more of a benefit than a hindrance.
Along those lines, I'd love to see a Pathfinder or some sort of OGC warlock-style class focused on at will spell-like abilities, because that's a fun variation to play that feels different than playing a wizard or psion or sorcerer.
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I'd like to keep the point system, because it just feels more "real" to the idea of psionics and I don't want the psion to become just another spontaneous caster. This would be wrong in my opinion and would rob the class off it's unique flavour. I wouldn't demand staying with the power point system, but I don't want Psi to use the vancian magic system with spell slots and stuff like this. I would like to do minor changes to the spell point system so that the "drink from the firehose" effect is cut back a little, if the mayority finds this to be necessary.
I never witnessed the mentioned abusing of the power point system in any of my games; and I played a lot of psi characters since the 3.5 XPH came out (and made Psi balanced for the first time in D&D!). But the possibility to abuse the system and therefore not integrating them into the core rules is an argument I find to be a little weak. There's so much in the rules that can be abused somehow and I believe we'll never have a system that can't be exploited by powergamers and munchkin players. I can accept the argument that Psi isn't that common in Golarion to include it into the core rules. I find this to be a lost opportunity to be the first setting to really include psionics, but I can live with that. And I can understand that there isn't the time nor the ressources to revise the Psi system too.
But let me ask this the other way around to be able to really understand the decision: If Psi would be a perfectly balanced system that wouldn't need an overhaul (or only a slightly one), would you include it then?
I am a huge fan of psionics. I've have predominately been a psionic character in almost every campaign I've played in. My attraction to psionics is not due to any need for power gaming, but from the theme and flavor these classes represent.
With that said, I do see some problems with the current rule set for psionics and how they can be easily abused. I feel several steps could be taken to help solve this.
First, would be reducing a character's power point pool would help stem players from wanting to nova on a day's first couple of encounters. I'm not talking about anything drastic like cutting the amount in half, but some classes such as the psion just have way to many darn power points.
The second, would be cutting back on the psionic power augmentations and limiting them to be class/discipline specific options as well as having class only powers. Example, Mind Thrust would deal a flat 1d10 damage for all non-telepaths where telepaths can augment the power to deal more damage and increase the save DC. This would put more meaning behind selecting a psionic discipline and help further differentiate between a psion whose telepath vs. one that is nomad.
Third would be capping off the amount of power points that can be spent to augment a power based on the level of the power well as the level of the manifester, especially for damage dealing spells. To use Mind Thrust again, capping it off that it can only deal 4d10 max through augmenting would help balance it with other 1st-level arcane and divine spells.
That’s my buck 50 anyway. I like psionics, but it just needs some tweaking.
The second, would be cutting back on the psionic power augmentations and limiting them to be class/discipline specific options as well as having class only powers. Example, Mind Thrust would deal a flat 1d10 damage for all non-telepaths where telepaths can augment the power to deal more damage and increase the save DC. This would put more meaning behind selecting a psionic discipline and help further differentiate between a psion whose telepath vs. one that is nomad.
Third would be capping off the amount of power points that can be spent to augment a power based on the level of the power well as the level of the manifester, especially for damage dealing spells. To use Mind Thrust again, capping it off that it can only deal 4d10 max through augmenting would help balance it with other 1st-level arcane and divine spells.
I thought the augmentation idea was brilliant in my opinion. Instead of having a big stack of spells that all do the same thing just "this is Improved so it's higher level and does more damage, and this one is Greater so it's even higher level and does even more damage" there's only one power that scales. (And I forget, is Greater better than Improved or the other way around?)
So for Mind Thrust that's augmented to cost the same as, say, a 7th level power should be balanced with 7th level powers and spells, not other 1st level spells and powers. It is in effect, no longer a 1st level power, but a 7th level power. I think a better fix would be to make arcane and divine spells scale much better rather than having Cure Minor, Cure Moderate, Cure Serious, Cure Critical (add "Mass" and repeat). To me, the psionic system is far better designed.
Now, I haven't run the numbers in a long time, but if you figure a certain percentage of a psion's powers will scale in a meaningful way, calculate how many powers they have as if that percentage were replaced with higher level equivalents and then see how well they stack up against a sorcerer. Maybe they do need fewer power points, or fewer powers known, I'm not sure. If I have time, I'll try to do some of that math. But my gut feeling from play experience is that they aren't far off in that manner.
What they could be unbalanced for is if your play style is only an encounter or two before resting. In that case, yes, psionic characters are overpowered. However, I'm not sure that play style is prevalent enough to necessitate a complete re-build of psionics. Yes, they can go nova and blow everything on high level powers only, but then they get to use powers FAR less that day than any spellcaster can cast spells. If the day goes beyond a couple encounters, going nova does cost the psion pretty seriously.
Besides, I'm confused how some people argue wizards blowing all of their high levels spells early on and then just firing a crossbow for the rest of the day makes them weak, while other people (possibly some overlap, I don't bother keeping track) argue that psions blowing all of their points early in the day and then relying on a crossbow for the rest of the day is overpowered. Seeing as how common both arguments are, I'm thinking it's probably a wash and means both are pretty balanced, Just long days favor fighters, short days favor spellcasters, and very short days favor psions. *shrug* If you want to solve all resource management balance issues for all kinds of days, you will need to go with something like 4e where fighters, wizards, rogues, psions, etc. all manage resources the same way. Otherwise, there will always be some circumstances that favor some classes, and other circumstances that favor others. I'm all for not going down that path with 3.Paizo. Include a great big warning when Pathfinder psionics are written up explaining that short days make psions into supernova monsters with possibly some alternate rules for limiting augmentations, or the number of points they have. But as long as the number of encounters per day varies, then they balance out as well as any other class.
I thought the augmentation idea was brilliant in my opinion. Instead of having a big stack of spells that all do the same thing just "this is Improved so it's higher level and does more damage, and this one is Greater so it's even higher level and does even more damage" there's only one power that scales. (And I forget, is Greater better than Improved or the other way around?
Don't get me wrong, I like the option of augmentation, I just thought some augments would of been better off being discipline specific vs. open to all psionic classes.
So for Mind Thrust that's augmented to cost the same as, say, a 7th level power should be balanced with 7th level powers and spells, not other 1st level spells and powers. It is in effect, no longer a 1st level power, but a 7th level power. I think a better fix would be to make arcane and divine spells scale much better rather than having Cure Minor, Cure Moderate, Cure Serious, Cure Critical (add "Mass" and repeat). To me, the psionic system is far better designed.
But the thing is Mind Thrust isn't a 7th-level power. If a manifester wishes to deal damage equal to 7th-level spells they should use a 7th-level power to achieve this and not through a 1st-level.
I understand a manifester would pay powers points equal to a 7th-level power, but that hardly seems to be a balancing factor. I'm sure any arcane caster would love the ability to sacrifice a higher or low level spell in order to exceed the damage cap of a lower level spell. Yes, there is the argument that divine and arcane casters auto scale with level but they do max out based on the level of the spell per the DMG's (don't remember the pg # but its under the creating new spells section) base line damage for spells.
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But the thing is Mind Thrust isn't a 7th-level power. If a manifester wishes to deal damage equal to 7th-level spells perhaps they should use a 7th-level power in order to achieve that result and not a 1st.I understand a manifester would pay powers points equal to a 7th-level power, but that hardly seems to be a balancing factor. I'm sure any arcane caster would love the ability to sacrifice a higher level spell in order to exceed the damage cap of a lower level spell. Yes, there is the argument that divine and arcane casters auto scale with level but they do max out based on the level of the spell per the DMG's (don't remember the pg # but its under the creating new spells section) base line damage for spells.
You're right, it isn't a 7th-level power. Don't forget though, it's still just a 1st-level power. They can be augmented but will forever have the saves of a lower-level power (unless you spend more points in some powers) and are blocked by anything that blocks a 1st-level spell (i.e. spell immunity) no matter how many points you throw into it. Additionally, psions do max-out on the amount of power points they can use based on level.
I'm on the opposite end, I love the fact that psionics is point-based and works different than arcane and divine magic (if I had my druthers, I'd have those two working differently as well, but I'm too traditional to take that leap anytime soon).Not to 4e-bash, this is just my subjective opinion, but one of the big turn offs for me about 4e is the fact that all of the classes pretty much resource manage the same. I LOVE the fact that wizards and sorcerers and psions and binders and etc. all actually play differently (and fighters and barbarians and rogues even more different).
Same here. Give us different options with a different feel to each.
You're right, it isn't a 7th-level power. Don't forget though, it's still just a 1st-level power. They can be augmented but will forever have the saves of a lower-level power (unless you spend more points in some powers) and are blocked by anything that blocks a 1st-level spell (i.e. spell immunity) no matter how many points you throw into it. Additionally, psions do max-out on the amount of power points they can use based on level.
I realize all that, but thats a small price to pay. Any sorcerer would kill for the option to maintain their lower level damage spells' usefulness at the cost of sacrificing other spells (i.e. My kingdom for being able to have my Magic Missile deal damage equal to Horrid Wilting!).
I feel placing a damage cap on powers based on their level would help bring things back into balance with spellcasters.
I realize all that, but thats a small price to pay. Any sorcerer would kill for the option to maintain their lower level damage spells' usefulness at the cost of sacrificing other spells (i.e. My kingdom for being able to have my Magic Missile deal damage equal to Horrid Wilting!).
Maybe so, but that also may be the reason a Sorcerer can have 43 spells known by level 20 where as a Psion can only learn 36. (and don't bring Wizards into this as they can know every spell in the book effectively.)
Breaking down Mind Thrust into multiple level varients that don't need scaling and would be resistant to Globes of Invulnribility would be doing Psions a favor instead of toning them down.
I realize all that, but thats a small price to pay. Any sorcerer would kill for the option to maintain their lower level damage spells' usefulness at the cost of sacrificing other spells (i.e. My kingdom for being able to have my Magic Missile deal damage equal to Horrid Wilting!).
Continuing the thought: ...if we convert Sorcerers over to Power Points in stead of spell slots (dropping the 6 0-level slots) so that we can compare apples to apples Sorcerers come out with 486 Base Power Points a Day to a Psion's 343...
WHY would anyone want to reduce a Psion's Power Point total in the intrest of "balance"?
(While we are at it can we rewrite all the Arcane PRCs so that in order to take it you lose at least 1 caster level, just like ALL of the Psionic PRCs?)
Howabout after the Core Book is done (because I realize that will always be the priority), we ask Monte Cook to stay on and help us with Psionics?
Howabout after the Core Book is done (because I realize that will always be the priority), we ask Monte Cook to stay on and help us with Psionics?
...and/or DreamScarred Press.
Maybe so, but that also may be the reason a Sorcerer can have 43 spells known by level 20 where as a Psion can only learn 36. (and don't bring Wizards into this as they can know every spell in the book effectively.)
Thanks to augmentingthose 36 powers get more bang for their buck than arcane or divine spells of equal level. Furthermore, powers such as Energy Ray and the like are more like 4 powers wrapped into one. The manifester goes a long way with the powers
Breaking down Mind Thrust into multiple level varients that don't need scaling and would be resistant to Globes of Invulnribility would be doing Psions a favor instead of toning them down..
I never stated to break Mind Thrust, or similar powers, into different level varients. I posed the idea of capping the die damage limits for powers based on the powers level. Example, Mind Thrust being a 1st-level power would cap off around a 4d10 augment max; The 3rd-level power Energy Bolt would max out at 10d6, etc...
The manifester would still retain the option to scale back on power points to deal lesser damage much like they always could. Just because they would no longer be able to deal a high number of damage with low level powers like Energy Ray wouldn't make them any less useful, it just means that the player would need to manifest higher level powers in order to gain a greater damage out put much like spellcasters already do.
This is a very interesting list... and as someone who likes psionics but not the way they've been dealt with rules-wise... here's how I would address the concerns of your list.
Oh, NO! Taken out by the Man himself! YEARGH! He got me . . . Everything is turning black . . . Mama . . .
Oh, wait! Except where we agree, which I note are some of my most important criticisms. What a relief!
A) Yes, much of my list is redundant, but it's hard to come up with good Lettermanesque top 10 lists . . .
B) I agree, the Monk does lend itself well to psionics, and therefore it doesn't make sense to design the Monk sans psionic capabilities. *If* you are going to include psionics into the game, including psionic classes, then you should pre-design the core classes with this addition in mind. Furthermore, why stop at the Monk? The Fighter, with his discipline & determination is well suited to psionic-esque feats & capabilities too. A quick, cheap (and extremely neat) steal would be to Combat Rites from Arcana Evolved, as both abilities the Fighter (and perhaps a few other classes) picks up progressively, as well as a feat other classes can select if they so desire. The Barbarian's rage ability aslo easily lends itself to psionic interpretations . . . My point is, is that psionic capability *should not* be a complete mystery from *all* the core classes.
C) We agree that anything can be awesome if it's designed with flair.
D) Healing & the Cleric is a whole other issue I have a bit of a beef with, and is the *one thing* (to rule them all?) I think 4th edition is doing right. If HP's are a measure of luck, dodging, stamina, etc., and not a measure of hard it is to hack something apart (according to the Gygaxian model from waaaaay back), then how do the Clerical "Cure" spells make sense?
I personally much prefer the Vancian system over a point system. A good question to ask fans of psionics: Would you still be a fan if the point system went away? Are you a fan of the flavor of psionics or the current point-based mechanics? Myself... I'm a fan of the flavor, and not so much a fan of the mechanics.
E) I actually the the psionic mana system is neat, although it may require something to limit the "Nova" effect. However, you can only have both vancian & mana systems if the mana system if further weakened by flat out less points, only spend a certain amount of points at a given time, etc.
Passive-aggressive munchkinism! Ha! Great term! It does bring up a good point, one I mention above, and one that's worth repeating.
F) Thank you, and boy am I glad you saw the humor in this one! I was really worried when I started reading your breakdown of my list! ;^D
- FM
I'm trying to stay away from this thread, but special thanks to Ken Marable for laying out the points I would have made, had he not beaten me to them. Assuming I could have presented them as cogently...
I would also like to point out this - psions are no more "overpowered" than sorcerers.
Um, no. Psions totally outclass the SRD sorcerer, starting with the fact that every one of their powers has the combined advantages of Eschew Material Components, Silent Spell, and Still Spell, for the cost of no feats. Then all the energy powers have built-in energy substitution. Then psions get access to higher-level powers faster than sorcerers do. Then they have the greater flexibility that power points give over spell slots. Then they get bonus feats like a wizard, unlike a sorcerer. And at every level, the number of 1st-through-9th level psionic powers known exceeds the sorcerer's number of 1st-through-9th level spells known.
What do the sorcerers get? Well, they get cantrips and automatic level-scaling. Level scaling is nice, but no, it doesn't balance out all the psion's other advantages.
What do the sorcerers get? Well, they get cantrips and automatic level-scaling. Level scaling is nice, but no, it doesn't balance out all the psion's other advantages.
A. A familiar without having to burn a feat.
B. Proficiency in all simple weapons (as opposed to just a club, dagger, heavy crossbow, light crossbow, quarterstaff, and shortspear)
C. Access to every spell on the wizard list, which is huge BTW.
D. Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows.
E. Don't discount Level Scaling too quickly... I wouldn't mind my 10th level Psion to be able to whip out a 5d4+5 blast that always hits, even incorpreal for 1 power point (ala Magic Missle), but no the closest I can do is 1d10 (Mind Thrust) that is ineffective vs mindless opponants and if the target makes a will save (DC:10+1+Int, that never goes up) he takes NO DAMAGE.
But yeah, I understand that those things are built in for balance, so I don't sweat it.
I love psionics, but firmly believe a psionics system should be contained within its own book rather than the basic rules. That said, I feel it's extremely important that such a system be designed and tested at the same time as the basic rules.
We don't need yet another psionics system that is simply tacked onto an already completed game. In such a situation, any possible design is limited by what is already set in stone, and as a result either ends up overpowered or simply cannot attain its full potential. If we want a psionics system that feels like it was added as an afterthought, we can simply use what's already available.
I would go so far as to say the following: if the time can't be found to update the psionics mechanics simultaneously and alongside the update to the basic rules, don't bother updating psionics at all.
A. A familiar without having to burn a feat.
Which is offset by the bonus feat psioncs get at first level - which basically means that if they don't want a pet rock, they can get something else. Sorcerers don't have that option in the core rules.
Not that a familiar was that good.
And now add to that the other bonus feats psions get, but sorcerers don't, and the sorcerer's on a disadvantage again.
B. Proficiency in all simple weapons (as opposed to just a club, dagger, heavy crossbow, light crossbow, quarterstaff, and shortspear)
That's quite neglegible. What are they missing? Maces and morningstars maybe, but the choices are quite useful, especially crossbows and shortspear.
Not that they need any weapons, with the psionic power at their disposal
C. Access to every spell on the wizard list, which is huge BTW.
Psions might miss out on 5 of the disciplines, but they can get choice powers from that list - and from the psychic warrior list - with expanded knowledge. Let's say he burns his bonus feats on levels 5,10,15 and 20 on that feat, which should give him a nice selection of extra powers which will leave him with little he wants but can't have.
D. Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows.
This is greatly offset by the fact that most psionic powers continue to be quite useful through all levels.
E. Don't discount Level Scaling too quickly
That's one of the few things that offsets psions' power: The strength to be able to augment powers to make them quite useful at higher levels is also a weakness in that they hav eto augment them in order to make them useful at higher levels.
Maybe so, but that also may be the reason a Sorcerer can have 43 spells known by level 20 where as a Psion can only learn 36. (and don't bring Wizards into this as they can know every spell in the book effectively.)
Adding up the numbers doesn't show the whole picture:
Psions can use feats to expand their repertoire, even beyond their normal class list.
Psions get to know more higher-level powers than wizards gets higher-level spells. Basically, Sorcerers get one extra 1st-level spell, but psions three extry 9th-level powers (or, if they don't want that many, they can use them for lower-level stuff they like).
9 of those 43 spells are cantrips, which are semi-useless even on low-levels.
Since psion powers generally scale better, and are more versatile, a psions 36 powers go a lot further than a sorcerer's 43 spells:
Sorcerer gets stuff like fireball, cone of cold, lightning bolt. Psion gets energy missile, ball, cone, whatever, and they usually scale up all the way (including DCs!), AND you get to choose your kind of energy with every manifestation - and if you don't have to use something to circumvent energy resistance, you can get +1 damage per level, and maybe even foil a rogue's evasion by forcing a fort save. Your average psion needs only two or three energy spells (a psion I played until very recently had energy missile and energy cone. As a kineticist, he could easily have taken energy ball, too)
A sorcerer would get a several of summon monster spells, the psion gets summon astral construct and scales as he sees fit.
Another example is energy adaptation, which is the same as 5 castings of resist energy.
In more than one occasion, a psionic power is the equivalent to a whole chain of spells a sorcerer would have to learn separately, replace, or keep handy just in case.
Breaking down Mind Thrust into multiple level varients that don't need scaling and would be resistant to Globes of Invulnribility would be doing Psions a favor instead of toning them down.
In the case of Globes of Invulnerability, the psion will just dispel it. Which is something that works a lot better for psions than for casters, as they can get the +20 to dispel on 10th level (1d20 +10 plus 10 for augmentation). Dispel Psionics is something most psions will probably have, and they can easily afford it to cast it several times, while not every caster who even thinks about globes will prepare them several times (except sorcerers maybe).
Continuing the thought: ...if we convert Sorcerers over to Power Points in stead of spell slots (dropping the 6 0-level slots) so that we can compare apples to apples Sorcerers come out with 486 Base Power Points a Day to a Psion's 343...WHY would anyone want to reduce a Psion's Power Point total in the intrest of "balance"?
Because Sorcerer's slots are not, in fact, converted to Spell Points.
Let's go the whole hog and compare two characters: a Psion and a Sorcerer, both level 20, both with a modest 32 in their key ability score (16 base +6 item +5 raises +5 book).
Sorcerers spells per day would translate into a whopping 628 SP (0-level slots counting as 1/2 SP).
Psion gets 453 PP.
On the surface, you could say that the sorcerer has about 50% more power, BUT, that psion can "go nova" and manifest 22 powers at full force, fully augmented, usually with the full power of manifester level 20 behind them, and DCs to reflect it (actually, they'd often be equal to DCs for 10th-level spells, since the augmentation isn't linked to level, only max power points).
The sorcerer, on the other hand, can do 7 9th-level spells.
That's 22 assimilates (well, actually more, since that power only costs 17 pp, isn't augmentable, and already deals its 20d6), timeless bodies (again, full power at 17, so more than 22), microcosms (which can be augmented to raise the limit to up to 130, while the closest magical equivalent, power word kill, stays at 100) or tornado blasts.
If you don't augment those 9th-level powers, you can go up to 26).
The sorcerer will run out after 7 time stops, meteor swarms, dominate monsters or power word kills.
Speaking of those 9th-level spells:
Time Stop: The psionic equivalent to that is a 6th-level power, cast as a swift action (which basically gives you an extra round over time stop, which wastes your standard action for that round), and can go up to 3 rounds (plus that one virtual round from swift action) for 11, 15, or 19 points. (Or more if you go epic, overchannel, or play a wilder) You lose 1-2 rounds over the sorcerer, but you know beforehand how much you are getting. The shaken part is a small price to pay.
Dominate Monster: Dominate Psionic is a 4th-level telepath power (easily obtainable at level 9 for non-telepaths via expanded knowledge, one level before a sorcerer could get dominate person), that is greatly customizable for variable duration, type of victim, and even number of victims! On 20th level, you could dominate 3 creatures of virtually any type (excluded types tend to be immune to mind effects, anyway) for 20 days.
One thing that was missed regarding the sorcerer-psion comparison is that psions can wear armor with no chance of spell/power failure while the sorcerer can't without going into a PrC. While it may seem like a small point, it is still a valid perk of the psion.
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A few additional points on psionic versus magic:
One pool of power points. Combined with feats like practiced manifester, this makes psionic characters a bit more able to multiclass. It's not great, but it's better than for arcane and divine classes.
Metamagic vs Metapsionic: Metapsionic feats in general are cheaper than metamagic, but they limit the number of power points left for augmenting. Also, having to expend your focus can be rather limiting. So, this one goes to the casters. On the other hand, manifesters have free silent and still spell and can cast while being armored (but then, so do divine casters and most arcane casters introduced after the PHB)
Psionic feats: The psion has a bit more versatility than the wizards because of the additional category of "psionic feats". That could easily be offset by defining feats like spell penetration or spell focus as "magic feats". Still, a bit more versatility for psions.
It should also be worth noting, that most optimizers one the WotC board don't view psions as one of the big five, so they might not be that overpowered after all.
One thing that was missed regarding the sorcerer-psion comparison is that psions can wear armor with no chance of spell/power failure while the sorcerer can't without going into a PrC. While it may seem like a small point, it is still a valid perk of the psion.
That falls under the heading of "automatic Still Spell".
Personally, I think the comparison of sorcerer vs. psion is not a great one because the sorcerer isn't a very good class. I think a more interesting comparison would be warmage vs. psion/kineticist (although the warmage isn't a core class).
That falls under the heading of "automatic Still Spell".
I stand correct :)
Which is offset by the bonus feat psioncs get at first level - which basically means that if they don't want a pet rock, they can get something else. Sorcerers don't have that option in the core rules.Not that a familiar was that good.
And now add to that the other bonus feats psions get, but sorcerers don't, and the sorcerer's on a disadvantage again.
I never said that it was a good feature, simply that they got it. You pointed out the benefits of being a Psion and then asked "what do Sorcerers get?" so I was helping you to fill out the list.
That's quite neglegible. What are they missing? Maces and morningstars maybe, but the choices are quite useful, especially crossbows and shortspear.Not that they need any weapons, with the psionic power at their disposal
Any more than Wizards or Sorcerers need weapons with all the arcane power at their disposal... I mean seriously, come on.
C. Access to every spell on the wizard list, which is huge BTW.Psions might miss out on 5 of the disciplines, but they can get choice powers from that list - and from the psychic warrior list - with expanded knowledge. Let's say he burns his bonus feats on levels 5,10,15 and 20 on that feat, which should give him a nice selection of extra powers which will leave him with little he wants but can't have.
Oh my goodness, you are actually sugesting burning the bonus feats that you point out as being in the Psion's favor on the first point so that they can learn 4 more powers?
I was pointing out that there are HUNDREDS of arcane spells from core and supplements to choose from.That's one of the few things that offsets psions' power: The strength to be able to augment powers to make them quite useful at higher levels is also a weakness in that they have to augment them in order to make them useful at higher levels.
E. Don't discount Level Scaling too quickly
Bingo, Exactly.
Adding up the numbers doesn't show the whole picture:Psions can use feats to expand their repertoire...
Again with burning the feats..... So can Arcane casters with the added benifit of not having to rumage around in their little brother "Psi-War"'s dresser to find something that fits.... you know, the much larger selection of spells thingy.
In the case of Globes of Invulnerability, the psion will just dispel it. Which is something that works a lot better for psions than for casters, as they can get the +20 to dispel on 10th level (1d20 +10 plus 10 for augmentation). Dispel Psionics is something most psions will probably have, and they can easily afford it to cast it several times, while not every caster who even thinks about globes will prepare them several times (except sorcerers maybe).
By 10th level one of the best things you can do against ANY caster is to make them waste their round. That enables your heavy hitters to get into place to deal some pounding, or whip out some save-or-die effect. on the subject of dispelling though bear in mind that it works both ways. A arcane caster can dispell a Psion's power too, the big difference is that an arcane caster can use Dispel Magic to counterspell, whereas a Psion can not.
Let's go the whole hog and compare two characters: ...
You know by 20th level I would think you would prefer a Power word: Kill (Save or die) over an Assimilate (raw damage) against most foes. I mean a Pit fiend has 225 hp, I'd have to Assimilate him twice at best, four times if I roll average, to drop him (Assuming I can breach the SR).... oh and BTW, it's a melee touch attack.
But if you really want to go deep into the raw numbers, it has been covered ad nauseum here: Myth: The XPH is overpowered so I'll cease cluttering the board.
Honestly, I just don't see where Psions are "unbalanced". If they were so much better than any other class wouldn't they be the most prefered class in the game?
Honestly, I just don't see where Psions are "unbalanced". If they were so much better than any other class wouldn't they be the most prefered class in the game?
Actually, if you go to the Core Coliseum board at the WotC web site (player-vs-player combat using the SRD + Psionic SRD), you'll see a lot of very successful psions. That's because certain psionic powers are probably too good: Dispel Psionics, Touchsight, Energy Missile (the SRD version without errata), Share Pain + Vigor, Ego Whip (at higher levels).
But that doesn't mean that the whole system is unbalanced; the spell Gate is too good, but that doesn't mean that wizards and clerics should be banned.
One thing that was missed regarding the sorcerer-psion comparison is that psions can wear armor with no chance of spell/power failure while the sorcerer can't without going into a PrC. While it may seem like a small point, it is still a valid perk of the psion.
note: they are still not proficient and so have the Armor check penalty applied to all attack rolls and to all skill checks that involve moving, including Ride.
Actually, if you go to the Core Coliseum board at the WotC web site (player-vs-player combat using the SRD + Psionic SRD), you'll see a lot of very successful psions.
Well, of course. Those characters are designed for one shot combats.
Make them fight 4 decent threats in a row, and a most of those Psi builds will be going home in a body bag.
Actually, if you go to the Core Coliseum board at the WotC web site (player-vs-player combat using the SRD + Psionic SRD), you'll see a lot of very successful psions. That's because certain psionic powers are probably too good: Dispel Psionics, Touchsight, Energy Missile (the SRD version without errata), Share Pain + Vigor, Ego Whip (at higher levels).Well, of course. Those characters are designed for one shot combats.
Make them fight 4 decent threats in a row, and a most of those Psi builds will be going home in a body bag.
Actually, characters in the Core Coliseum are designed for three fights in a row. In fact, spellcasters and manifesters are forbidden from using more than 1/3 of their resources per fight and must fight three matches before resting. But I agree that if that number were increased to five or six, there'd be a lot more relying on power stones, dorjes, etc.
Actually, characters in the Core Coliseum are designed for three fights in a row. In fact, spellcasters and manifesters are forbidden from using more than 1/3 of their resources per fight and must fight three matches before resting. But I agree that if that number were increased to five or six, there'd be a lot more relying on power stones, dorjes, etc.
My mistake, I don' frequent the CoCo boards.... would you say there are more Psion builds there than say Clerics or Druids?
Actually, characters in the Core Coliseum are designed for three fights in a row. In fact, spellcasters and manifesters are forbidden from using more than 1/3 of their resources per fight and must fight three matches before resting. But I agree that if that number were increased to five or six, there'd be a lot more relying on power stones, dorjes, etc.My mistake, I don' frequent the CoCo boards.... would you say there are more Psion builds there than say Clerics or Druids?
Maybe; it varies over time. Clerics are not especially popular (except as cohorts). Druids are reasonably popular, though.
More importantly, the win/loss records of psions are better (on average) than that of any other class. Again, it's just a handful of powers that are problematic (in my experience).
More importantly, the win/loss records of psions are better (on average) than that of any other class.
How much better are we talking here?
...do you have a link to where can I find these Statistics?
More importantly, the win/loss records of psions are better (on average) than that of any other class.How much better are we talking here?
...do you have a link to where can I find these Statistics?
Here's the list of characters that have fought recently:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=5179872&postcount=2Here's the list of semi-retired characters:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=5179902&postcount=9
Some characters have a "Great Renown" tag after their name; not surprisingly, most of the "Great Renown" fighters are psions, druids, clerics or wizards.
Again, it's just a handful of powers that are problematic (in my experience).
Agreed. Just as there are problem divine and arcane spells.
Not to beat a dead hippogriff, but I honestly feel that the whole "psionics are uber broken" mantra stems from damage powers only being capped by the manifester's level. If the powers maxed out based on their level I feel it would stop a lot of the crying that psioncs are over powered.
Not to beat a dead hippogriff, but I honestly feel that the whole "psionics are uber broken" mantra stems from damage powers only being capped by the manifester's level. If the powers maxed out based on their level I feel it would stop a lot of the crying that psioncs are over powered.
But by the time the damage maximums become an issue non-psionic classes have save-or-die powers.
also to quote the Myth thread:
Mob HPs scale in d8-d10 (by and large, unless using Rogue/Bard/Caster NPCs), while damage scales in d6. Therefore, every single level, your enemy has at least one more HP than your nuke now does. By 10th level, this mean your 10th level power effectively does 9-18 hp less damage than it did at 1st level.
That's why free damage scaling is even better - the Wizard doesn't have to worry as much about the fact that their 3rd level nukes aren't as efficient - it still only costs a 3rd level slot. A Psion, on the other hand, who wants to increase his 3rd level nuke to the same level (10d6, for instance), is now paying 10 pps - or two third level nukes - and doing less efficient damage.