I dislike the idea of the shops of magical items (except some potions, scrolls or perhaps a few minor magical items), can I run the paths without them normally or I must add magical items for compensate this.
Thanks in advance and please, forgive my poor english.
I don't usually have magical shops in my campaigns, but I do have spellcasters who are willing to make magic items for order. As in, the PCs go to a big city, they go to the Wizards' Guild and set up a contract, pay their 40,000gp up front, and come back in 40 days* to pick up their Ring of Free Action.
*Actually, the "set up a contract" part involves finding out if anyone has the time and skills to make the desired item. So in the example above, I might tell them that a wizard is willing to make the ring, but he's got 3 weeks left on another project, they'll have to pay now and wait 61 days for the item to be ready.
I find it works pretty well because it requires significant down-time at higher levels, so if I want to make them use what they're finding, I just keep the pressure on (no downtime). But if someone really wants specific gear for their PC, and they've got the money and the time, why not let them get it - eventually.
If you don't want to allow this, you'll probably want to modify found treasures here and there to ensure a good match for the items your party needs. The wealth-by-level guidelines in the DMG assume the PCs will have that amount of useful treasure, so if they're unable to use most of what they're finding, it can cause problems with appropriate CR for facing some monsters/obstacles. On the other hand, it's okay if the useful stuff the PCs are using is not exactly the gear they'd choose first. At that point it comes down to your gaming group's preferences - do they choose their PCs' equipment (by ordering and paying for stuff they want), or do you as DM get to choose it for them (by limiting them to what they find).
I dislike the idea of the shops of magical items (except some potions, scrolls or perhaps a few minor magical items), can I run the paths without them normally or I must add magical items for compensate this.
Thanks in advance and please, forgive my poor english.
I guess this depends on what your looking for. Obviously the adventures are not tailored to your particular adventuring group so your going to have to handle that aspect. In older editions I rolled the magic items randomly and the PCs just made do with whatever fell into their hands, which sometimes had interesting effects when they came up with unusual ways of using items that at first blush seemed worthless and sometimes caused them to simply throw the item into a big stash of magic items that where never used - the stash mainly had magic armours of a type no one wore or magic weapons weaker then the weapons already being used.
Many DMs, however, swear by giving the players magic they can use. This can either be magic that the DM thinks would be cool for the players or the DM can take requests and stick the desired items in an upcoming treasure hoard.
Obviously the APs assume the magic mart effect so your going to have to think about what you want to do with magical items that the PCs get but will probably not use. Do they barter them from the Scrolls and Potions that do exist? Do they throw them away? In short what happens to the magic you players don't want or can't use? The other issue you have to face is what to do about money. In a magic mart type environment the PCs convert money to magic items but if they can't do that then what can they do with their money? As their likely to get lots of money.
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I dislike the idea of the shops of magical items (except some potions, scrolls or perhaps a few minor magical items), can I run the paths without them normally or I must add magical items for compensate this.
Thanks in advance and please, forgive my poor english.
I think you'll be okay to not have magic shops, at least in CotCT. IIRC, there are only a couple magic shops described in Korvosa (although I assumed there were more that just didn't get described), so it should be easy for you to repurpose them. :)
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Ive never had a personal problem with magic shops. provided, of course, that:
1. they arent manufactories. They're more like pawn shops, or goodwill-but-not-cheap, or those really good old fashioned book stores run by old men with carpet slippers and goves with the fingers cut out. They pick up and sell stock, and buy stock from powerfull crafting mages, or are run by a competent crafter. You cant just walk in and buy whatever you want; you have to see what's in stock.
2. they're uncommon. Magic items are so expensive, with a small demographic, that only two or three can exist in a city at a given time. There's not enough stock or customers to go around
3. you can only get the cheap stuff, like +1/+2 bracers and rings, mostly nothing above 4000gp, ect. Anything else is in use, in a private collection, or in another shop somewhere else. any given shop only has one or two things like Greater Ring of Fire Resistance in stock, if they're lucky.
4. Wands and potions are the only mass-produced items, and even those are uncommon.
I think Cintra had a pretty good suggestion there Artemis2. Of course there is the wish list model for modifying magic item dropped loot from monsters/villains. I have just never been a fan because it isn't my style, but that doesn't mean it's bad.
However, if you really don't like being able to obtain magic items via the open market/bartering/commissions then you could take the down time between adventures (events) and insert sidequests for items they would like. However, this could potentially throw campaigns off track or throw off xp.
You could make your player(s) participate in the crafting (ie obtaining key components). This option still requires a significant and additional effort from the player but allows them to obtain something they covet/desire. It will allow you to equip your party in a useful enough manner that they won't be carrying items they see as fairly useless.
Although, as Jeremy mentioned, it can be fun and rewarding to see what PC's will do with random magical items.
In these scenarios,as always, you have final say in what is available. So you still would not have to worry about a PC min-maxing themselves with loot that trivializes the challenges of an adventure.
In a completely magic-market free campaign you could have some issues if the players wish to sell any found magical loot though. I tend to run the random magical availability model like Jodah, which gives my PC's a venue for procuring odds and ends and uloading glowing clunk they do not intend to use.
Thanks to all ;) Yes I'm aware of the fact that not all the magical items will be fit in a particular group, but I confront this in two manners:
1.- I try that in every treasure the PCs take some utility items, not all but the sufficients (yes it's metaplay, but I consider it the destiny).
2.- Yes, the adverturer parties can buy the objects that they don't need but they can give them to his cohorts, or sell it to the king's guard. I don't dislike the PCs buying some object but the magical items shops.
I think you'll be okay to not have magic shops, at least in CotCT. IIRC, there are only a couple magic shops described in Korvosa (although I assumed there were more that just didn't get described), so it should be easy for you to repurpose them. :)
Well I'm with the Rise of the Runelords, but thanks for the advice, Curse of Crimson Throne will be player for us in a future ;)
Please excuse my poor english and thanks to all opinion again ;)
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*shakes head*
I never understood the dislike for magic shops. Here's the deal, in a world with thousands of adventures, where adventures get magic items in every adventure (sometimes duplicates like +1 swords) they have to get rid of "useless" magical items some where.
Hence, pawn shops.
Now granted, a PC shouldn't be able to walk into a shop and say "I want 2 +1 shortswords" and walla he has them. But certainly magical trinkets and other oddy shops aren't unbelievable. Also, the wealthier the city, the more likely they are to have the magical item your PC is looking for. If the shop doesn't have it, it's keeper, a deal in such items, would likely know someone who does have said item for sale.
Granted, there's a bit of reason a DM needs to have.. like a Holy Avenger isn't going to be for sale.. well it could be if it's cursed, dusty, and discarded... but you know what I mean. :)
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*shakes head*
I never understood the dislike for magic shops. Here's the deal, in a world with thousands of adventures, where adventures get magic items in every adventure (sometimes duplicates like +1 swords) they have to get rid of "useless" magical items some where.
Hence, pawn shops.
Now granted, a PC shouldn't be able to walk into a shop and say "I want 2 +1 shortswords" and walla he has them. But certainly magical trinkets and other oddy shops aren't unbelievable. Also, the wealthier the city, the more likely they are to have the magical item your PC is looking for. If the shop doesn't have it, it's keeper, a deal in such items, would likely know someone who does have said item for sale.
Granted, there's a bit of reason a DM needs to have.. like a Holy Avenger isn't going to be for sale.. well it could be if it's cursed, dusty, and discarded... but you know what I mean. :)
because the wealth tables are screwy, not taking into account the consumables that you use before you get to said level. Thats why every group of mine starts at 1st level (or has to go through a virtual magic shop in which I have a some control on what is in stock)
I allow magic shops.
Those that have more potent items than +1 or possibly +2 do not advertise, nor are they usually known to the general population. Tis strictly word of mouth and references.
This allows me to use the chars' reputation in that city, and promote the importance of some of their contacts and how they treat them. Also, this allows me to provide non material rewards that the players often value more than gold or items.
I have been known to have items that the PCs are looking for, but at a higher price than what is listed in the books, due to supply and demand.
I also use methodes similar to Cintra's.
I don't have problems with a shop with potins, scrolls and some rare magical items. But shops of magical items seems imposible to me.
How many adverture parties of level 5-10 are in Varisia actually? A few dozens? ¿How many magical items do they earn in a year and never use? A hundred in total? ¿How many do they sell? The half or less? How many of these objects are bought by authorities and rich people?
I don´t mind if an NPC party sells a +1 sword to one PC, what I dislike is shops with a stock of magical items more powerful than those used by the royal guard awaiting the PCs.
Please excuse by my poor english and thanks for all the opinions ;)
I actually dislike the usage of magic items all together but I still let my players have free choice of whatever they want in our Savage Tide campaign.
Even with that and the min-maxers in the group, I have had a whole slew of PC deaths. Every player is on their 2nd, 3rd, or 4th character in that campaign, so now the characters playing are totally different than the ones who initially started the campaign. Kind of a disappointment as far as story goes, but as my players have learned, these adventure paths are really tough and if you don't get the magic gear you want, its just that much harder.
I can't wait to run Pathfinder with True20 next though, since that game system doesn't require magic items at all.
I limit my shops, as others have said, and I mean keeping them VERY scarce. I give them a lot of hassle when they sell their magic items... that means I basically cheat the hell out of them.
If they want something, some items are there, and some are not. If the party really needs something I'll make sure it can be found. If they really want something I'll lay the decision at the feet of lady luck and roll the bones.
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I use a major city for my PCs to buy magic items. I have three stores they can buy from. Two are smaller shops that have nothing besides the lower level items, and even that is limited. They carry alchemical items, scrolls, potions, and some basic magic items. Their prices are 5% below book price, because their "quality" or appearance is not not as nice as other places. The owners of these shops make their own items. Oh and one is divine magic and the other arcane.
The third shop is very small but has nearly everything you want, but at 150% of book price. A young couple owns the store. They meet with you and find out what you want. You present the cash and one of them will go to the closet, close the door, and return with the item you want. The couple is in fact a mated pair of young adult silver dragons, with a pocket dimension for their store. They buy and trade in several planes and several different major cities.
This provides me with an easy way for them to fence what they find and buy what they want. But at a price. And only in a MAJOR city. Most towns have a small shop like the first ones I described but at book prices.
It works for me. :)
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I always think that magic shops would
a) be targeted by anti-magic extremists;
b) be shoddy, businesses with no actually valuable magic;
c) be quality businesses with real magic, but hidden away, because, well, they have real magic for sale and that's asking for trouble;
d) be legitimate, but only extant in really big metropolitan areas, where the cost of business would be offset by the number of wealthy consumers;
e) or, my favorite, black market speakeasies with legitimate fronts--of course, they sell a combination of junk and power...
In my campaigns I make magic shops conform to options c and e. I'm particularly fond of combining the two. I then ensure the procurement and sale of power and items is interwoven with some large-scale conspiracy central to the plot.
My favorite games are the ones where my players realize that something that happened a year ago was the quanta for what's happening right now; and despite everything they've done, every decision they've made, it was never about them.
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My problem with magic item shops is that, the more magic you make available the more it becomes necessary and the more you have the golf bag of magical swords syndrome...
This sometimes just happens, and as the DM I find myself wondering how in the world I let the paladin collect three different enchanted swords. What do I do?
Never reveal the complete and true nature of any magic item to the players. That way, you can flummox them when you have to, or an item can simply become more ordinary over time, or maybe less relevant.
Another option is to fiat the item carry rule: without offering in depth explanation to the player, simply have them to occasionally choose--take the new item, or keep the current one.
If it helps your story, create a situation where they are forced by events to choose, or where the old item is absorbed into the new one, or where the old sword simply disappears when they take up the new one. Some players will be very upset by this, but if the DM plays it off well, it'll be seen as just another challenging aspect of a fun and challenging game.
*shakes head*
I never understood the dislike for magic shops.
I think its usually a power issue for the DM. DMs usually like power - thats why their DMs in the first place. Control over magic allows the DM to maintain more power and DMs are usually loathe to surrender power.
It'll take all of three seconds for the DM to realize that once he allows unfettered access to magic in his game it no longer really matters what kind of magic he hands out in the treasure hoarde becuase all magic essentially becomes weird shaped GPs. Unless the DM is actually taking requests for specific magic items to appear in future treasure hoards (which strains my suspension of disbelief far more then a magic shop ever could) there is little chance the DM placed magic items will be more interesting to the PCs then some item that they have found in the DMG or Magic Item Compendium that they are drooling about. So the existance of magic shops is essentially a blow to the DMs ego.
Now that said I have encountered the odd player that prefers random magic placement due to the fun of making use of odd items but I think such players are the exception rather then the rule.
Personally I work out how we do magic prior to the campaign start. We work out the basic possibilities i.e. magic shops, or random magic appearance or magic appearing in future hoards by player request to the DM. and then there is a vote. DM breaks ties. So far the players have always voted for magic shops but it looks like that might not be the case next campaign as I have one player who is campaigning hard core for random magic. Might convince enough of the players to go along that this becomes how the next campaign is played out.
It's not power for me. It's credulity, and the kind of fantasy world I want to create. My worlds tend to be gritty and they wouldn't be if magic items were so ever-present that someone could go out shopping for exactly what he or she needs.
It's not power for me. It's credulity, and the kind of fantasy world I want to create. My worlds tend to be gritty and they wouldn't be if magic items were so ever-present that someone could go out shopping for exactly what he or she needs.
That's exactly what I think ¡Thanks Kruelaid!
This sometimes just happens, and as the DM I find myself wondering how in the world I let the paladin collect three different enchanted swords. What do I do?
Another option is to fiat the item carry rule: without offering in depth explanation to the player, simply have them to occasionally choose--take the new item, or keep the current one.
I make the characters pay full XP cost for all items they retain, as if they themselves had crafted them. This slows advancement somewhat (which no one in our group particularly minds), but, more importantly, it throws the "golf bag" sydrome right out the window.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Maybe it's becausev we're all 1e2e players (except for a couple of newbies) but the magic item store has never come up.
I have had players 'save up' to get that item they want, or we've had the casters take the item creation feats and charge party member 75% of the 'list cost' to make up for the lost XP with getting items of their own to help compensate for the XP loss. And of course happy sticks are common. Though I might find the BoXM will change that.
As an aside, most of the item crafters in my world are wizards Erudites, and to a lesser extent, psions. While psions have the bonus feats, wizards and erudites have the flexability to have the 'spell/power I'd never memorize, but would look great in a wand'. Clerics, unless their portfolios include artifice and maybe magic, aren't big on crafting, lack of skill points, lack of bonus feats and lack of time. "I'd love to craft that +2 back scratcher for you, but the high harvest rituals are near, and all my spell slots are going to plant growth and other such spells."
It'll take all of three seconds for the DM to realize that once he allows unfettered access to magic in his game it no longer really matters what kind of magic he hands out in the treasure hoarde becuase all magic essentially becomes weird shaped GPs.
That's why I *don't* allow unfettered access to magic items. I like the idea that magic items are (somewhat) rare and interesting--finding one should be a "Hey, cool!" moment. If they are no longer interesting and exotic, then they're just "weird shaped GPs."
If my players want a particular magic item and its not available they must find someone to craft it for them. A requested crafted item tends to be 150% of the book price, this helps discourage them loading up on many powerful items and instead focusing on making the best use of what they CAN get. I decide randomly what items a particular shop has available (or in the case of my RotR campaign, what items can be gotten from Magnimar) and if theres something i just don't want the players to get, its simply not available. And assuming items are created, i like throwing in variants with different powers and qualities. Rarely do i use items straight out of the DMG.
I had worried initially that this might result in players wanting to go to magnimar to deal directly with some of their merchants contacts but both the characters and the players are growing attached to Sandpoint and are unwilling to leave it while they go on a shopping spree. Every group is different and you must moderate the supply of magical items to suit your game style and the players in it.
I've had players in the past who have loaded up on magical items at will and become unstoppable, this i've found is not only frustrating for the DM (as it requires throwing unending waves of baddies at the players in a Serious Sam type game) but it causes frustration on the player as well. If the game is no challenge, why should it continue? Placing a little restriction on the players is not always about a power trip. Its about fun. Without challenge there is not much inspiration to improvise and use tactics and the game degenerates into who can wield the bigger stick.
It's not power for me. It's credulity, and the kind of fantasy world I want to create. My worlds tend to be gritty and they wouldn't be if magic items were so ever-present that someone could go out shopping for exactly what he or she needs.
OK but then how do you get the magic to your players?
It seems to me that the alternative options face verisimilitude issues at least as great as the idea that wizards can make magic to order and that a large city probably has whats desired and some one willing to sell.
Roll Randomly on the tables to see whats in the hoard? Having magic possibly be anything has a certain authenticity but the tables don't really do a very good job of giving one the feeling that we are actually seeing a true sample of more common versus less common magic. If you kill the Gargantuan Red Dragon you probably should not normally find a +4 sword along with a million GP - what you should probably find is a dozen +1 swords since +4 swords are presumably extraordinarily rare while +1 swords are comparatively fairly common.
This method suffers from a game design perspective - your basically telling your players that their just not going to get the magic they really want because the chances of that magic coming up randomly is exceedingly improbable. So the DM has, in the name of realism, basically said - I'm here to make the game less fun for you my players.
This is particularly problematic because magic items are not very central to the DM. He places them in hoards and thats pretty much it. Its the players that are going to utilize the magic items through out the game so their very central to the players characters while being of mere passing relevance to the DM
OK option Number Two - you take requests, so some how what the players want magically appears in the treasure hoard of the Huge Red Dragon. Its simply presumed that what they wanted was some how always there and future treasure hoards will also likely have at least some of what the PCs desire. This method is essentially the same as letting the players buy what they want except the DM maintains control, no slipping of the DMs power here - the PCs can be denied what they want at the DMs whim. This method is also nearly impossible to explain away in terms of verisimilitude and instead things are just hand waved. No one actually believes that item X just happened to be sitting there and oh look its just perfect for player Y ... what a coincidence!.
There is a third option I can think of, thats where the DM drops items he thinks the players will want into hoards. This is very similar to Option Number Two except the DM maintains even more control. The players may or may not like what shows up but its still rather odd how often magic items of the same type as the fighters weapon focus appear. Its just that in this case they player knows to be thankful to the DM for thinking of him when he dropped that item into the hoard - too bad its not what he really wanted but it is better then the item he got that last time the DM decided to graciously grant him something.
This option is the most unusual in terms of verisimilitude. Because players actual requests are not being granted there is a stronger sense of realism inside the game though the fact that items are unusually useful does damage that. However there becomes a game outside of the game with this option. We now have a situation where the DM is handing out candy but he's guessing what kind of candy the players want. Part of the players job now becomes subtly telling the DM what candy he wants without actually being so crass as to come right out and say gimmie X. There is a whole little psychological interplay between the DM giving out the goods and the players getting the goods. The other weak point with this style is that the DM has just set himself up as the abider of what is and what is not cool. The player might love Rods of Wonder but if the DM does not think their cool then good luck ever getting one. You have to want what the DM thinks is cool 'cause the DM hands out the candy and he's not going to hand out what he considers lame candy.
Another issue with all of these options is what do the players do with the money? If they can't really spend it on magic items then their going to have a lot of money kicking around by the time they are 12th level and a heck of a lot more afterward. The players have enough cash to do a lot in a fantasy world and thinking up ways to spend their otherwise worthless gold. Sometimes thats interesting and sometimes its basically just disruptive depending on what the players latest scheme is. Realistically they ought to save most of it - presumably the PCs want to live like kings for the rest of their days, but in my experience players rarely think 'retirement savings plan' is a cool way to utilize their gold.
This gets around the problem of constantly randomly giving players magic that they don't give a rats ass about but its basically
I want to try to run Magic Shoppes the way they were presented in Shackled City and others. The shop has some fixed, predetermined inventory. The more expensive/specialized an item is, the less likely it is to be present. For items on display, you can pay for them and walk away. The owner might also have a special collection in the back that they charge a premium for: items that they have a story for, or just unique pieces that they'd rather show off than part with.
However, magic item shops have to have contacts: where else would they get stock? If you want an item that is not in stock, they will find someone who has it in stock, or can make it. For instance, if you ask for an arcane scroll they don't have, they'll contract the local mage's guild to scribe one for you. Anything that is 'ordered out' involves a finder's fee and some sort of delay, either for transportation or creation or both, depending on the item. Selling items involves placing them on consignment or bartering them for items already in stock, since even the best-run magic shops won't have a metric ton of of platinum sitting around to pay their debts in. The store might also refuse certain types of items. For instance, an unholy item or two might be sellable as curiousities, but if you bring up two dozen unholy battleaxes from wiping out an evil cult, Good proprietors might tell you to bury them or take them to the temple to be destroyed instead.
This way, characters can still get whatever items they want or need, and sell whatever items they have, but retaining the feeling of a real economy.
It'll take all of three seconds for the DM to realize that once he allows unfettered access to magic in his game it no longer really matters what kind of magic he hands out in the treasure hoarde becuase all magic essentially becomes weird shaped GPs.That's why I *don't* allow unfettered access to magic items. I like the idea that magic items are (somewhat) rare and interesting--finding one should be a "Hey, cool!" moment. If they are no longer interesting and exotic, then they're just "weird shaped GPs."
Note though that having the players stop and go 'cool' when you unveil the neat magic item serves to keep the DM in the spotlight. You've just granted them some kind of a boon. So much more interesting for the DM then having the players go off and buy the stuff they want.
But have you really increased the total amount of fun at the table?
Lets think about that for a moment. Weird Shaped GP is still GP. The players are still excited to have it - its the DM thats not excited. See the players are going to take this weird shaped GP and their going to cash it in. Next, either at home or with the rest of the players around the table, their going to open up the DMG and the Magic Item Compendium and treat them like a big shopping catalog.
Thing is going through the magic item shopping catologue looking for cool items is an inherently entertaining activity. Its fun for them - they get to transform their hard earned luchre into cool stuff that will make their characters just that much more fun to play. Which is, of course, one of the reasons they plunk down at your table week after week.
Shopping for magic also faces them with interesting choices, and having interesting choices is one of the keys to what makes gaming fun. So while their shopping their also trying to balance out what they should get and whether they should save up for that really totally awesome item or spend their money now. Should they buy consumables that will make them significantly more powerful but only for a short period of time or stick with stuff that grants a smaller bonus but lasts forever? These are interesting choices and your players will enjoy making them.
Hence shopping for magic feeds into two desires of the Players, it allows them to fulfill their ambitions to make their character more exciting and it allows them to make meaningful choices about their character.
By and large they like this in my experience though its a total bore for the DM. I once sat through an entire three and a half hour session where all I did was drink tea and chat with the (non-gamer) boyfriend of the hostess while my seven players sat around the living room with 2 DMGs and 3 Magic Item Compendiums open while they babbled incessantly at each other about what they should get for their characters and plotted what they figured they'd need for the upcoming adventure -they where headed into a necropolis so how they equipped themselves was deemed important since clearly they'd face known opposition, in this case undead. I found it mind numbing but the rotten miscreants where still going on about their loot on the drive home so I figure they had fun. I can put up with this because, as the DM, 95% of the time all the attention is focused on me so I grudgingly allow them to not pay me much mind for the other 5% of the time.
Anyway heres my suggestion. Try both systems and then put it to a vote and see which way the players would prefer to play. I hear a lot of DMs talking about their gritty low magic campaign and how cool it is. There are probably hundreds of threads to that effect on these boards.
But you know what? I don't think I have ever seen a post by a player going on about how much cooler this is. I mean there are a lot of posts on these boards and I suppose I have just missed or forgotten a couple of examples of this but they really can't be that common.
The only real example I can think of is the opposite - STAP cuts the players off from the magic item shops just by the nature of its design ... there are lots of posts in threads on that. Real tempest in a tea pot there when the players figured out they could not buy items. This is one of the reasons I think of this as a DM problem. Its DMs that seem keen to 'fix' the easy availability of magic, Rarely have I seen players advocating this unless the player is also a DM.
I want to try to run Magic Shoppes the way they were presented in Shackled City and others. The shop has some fixed, predetermined inventory. The more expensive/specialized an item is, the less likely it is to be present. For items on display, you can pay for them and walk away. The owner might also have a special collection in the back that they charge a premium for: items that they have a story for, or just unique pieces that they'd rather show off than part with.
However, magic item shops have to have contacts: where else would they get stock? If you want an item that is not in stock, they will find someone who has it in stock, or can make it. For instance, if you ask for an arcane scroll they don't have, they'll contract the local mage's guild to scribe one for you. Anything that is 'ordered out' involves a finder's fee and some sort of delay, either for transportation or creation or both, depending on the item. Selling items involves placing them on consignment or bartering them for items already in stock, since even the best-run magic shops won't have a metric ton of of platinum sitting around to pay their debts in. The store might also refuse certain types of items. For instance, an unholy item or two might be sellable as curiousities, but if you bring up two dozen unholy battleaxes from wiping out an evil cult, Good proprietors might tell you to bury them or take them to the temple to be destroyed instead.
This way, characters can still get whatever items they want or need, and sell whatever items they have, but retaining the feeling of a real economy.
This does tend to bump into a few problems at high level. If the players want something a little odd, like say a +2 Holy Cold burst Trident its going to be hard to think that ones in stock or even lying around. Well one could have it crafted but its what a +5 equivalent item? That means it'll take 25 days to make and the more powerful stuff starts to take even longer. So if the players are on any kind of a schedule this gets in the way. 'Course if you build in long periods of time between adventures this is mostly not a problem and I suppose you should have down time for the crafters to craft in any case.
I've never cared about overpowered characters. I've never worried about encounters. In the games I've run, players could face a TPK or tough fight no matter what they have at any of the various levels. If the party has the money, they can always get what they can afford.
For the party to face challenges, I figure a big, dynamic world, filled with a legion of adventurers, and that throughout tens of thousands of years, there has to have eventually have been a pretty decent stock of magical items. Someone somewhere doesn't want to destroy a +1 sword when they find a better one, but there are others at a certain income bracket that could buy one. Eventually, markets were created.
I also scrapped all of the craft feats. If the character has a good score in their spellcraft, they can make an item at a reduced price.
This does tend to bump into a few problems at high level. If the players want something a little odd, like say a +2 Holy Cold burst Trident its going to be hard to think that ones in stock or even lying around. Well one could have it crafted but its what a +5 equivalent item? That means it'll take 25 days to make and the more powerful stuff starts to take even longer. So if the players are on any kind of a...
50 days for a +5 weapon. And a +2 Holy Frost Burst weapon is +6 equivilent, so 72 days.
If you want something that specific, you'd better be willing to wait, then.
This does tend to bump into a few problems at high level. If the players want something a little odd, like say a +2 Holy Cold burst Trident its going to be hard to think that ones in stock or even lying around. Well one could have it crafted but its what a +5 equivalent item? That means it'll take 25 days to make and the more powerful stuff starts to take even longer. So if the players are on any kind of a...50 days for a +5 weapon. And a +2 Holy Frost Burst weapon is +6 equivilent, so 72 days.
If you want something that specific, you'd better be willing to wait, then.
Ahh, for some reason I was thinking it was 1 day per 1,000 gp of the crafting cost but I see your right its 1 day per 1,000 of the base price.
This does bring up some issues as your getting wonky 5 minute workday effects here. PCs go out to adventure. Fight bad guys save Princess. Takes them all of about 1/2 a day. They then come back and spend 72 days waiting for their new magic item to be finished - after which they spend another day adventuring before returning and waiting even longer for their new magic item to be finished.
Any kind of a campaign with an ongoing plot with some kind of time pressure involved starts to really crack at high level with times like this. Though I'll grant that I'm not sure that this is so much of a problem that its worth fixing. With crafting feats it may just be a 'feature' of higher level play.
I usually run it this way:
On the low end, I have adepts with Craft (Alchemy), Profession (Hebalist), and Brew Potion selling useful substances, medicines, and the occasional 0-level or 1st-level potion (which are within the price range of a successful artisan or minor merchant, petty nobles, etc.). Even a 25gp potion of cure minor wounds can keep someone from dying in an accident before the local cleric arrives.
In the middle are the merchants who sell high-quality items (armor, weapons, jewelry), some of which (probably no more than one or two) may have minor enchantments (like a masterwork longsword that can be commanded to activate a magic weapon effect once per day; 675gp). These cater to the successful merchants, lower nobility, guildmasters, etc., as well as any adventurers who may be in the area (adventurers are notoriously poor clients, as they have the tendency to die, retire, or leave the area after a short period of time, instead of being regular customers).
At the high end, there are establishments in cities that specialize in magical wares. Usually, they are either associated with or regulated by a mages' or wizards' guild, order, or school. They cater to the mages' or wizards' guild/order/school, the nobility, wealthy merchants, and adventurers (because cities are usually the only place to buy and sell most magic items, there are enough adventurers buying and selling to make this worthwhile). Most of the items will be common +1 or +2 items and limited to the minor lists (as should the majority of the treasure found as loot).
Apart from that, the only other sources of magical items are churches, commissioning an item, or enchanting it yourself. Churches are likely to have a stock of items for use in emergencies, but convincing them to sell any of them will be tough going; a member of the church (or of the church clergy) will likely be able to request a few items on occasion if they can convince the church leadership that it is in the church's and deity's interest. It should also be possible to locate a spellcaster who is willing to create an item "to spec;" this should follow the pricing and time guidelines in the DMG; this helps keep the rest of the party from getting upset over "doing nothing" while the wizard scribes new spells into their spellbook; note that this can also be used an adventure hook, when the spellcaster requests special materials to meet the characters request... In the end, use of the item creation feats by a party member is always an option when looking for the perfect item; allowing other party members to contribute to the XP cost will keep things fair within the party, so the item enchanter doesn't lag behind the rest of the group.
It seems to me that the alternative options face verisimilitude issues at least as great as the idea that wizards can make magic to order and that a large city probably has whats desired and some one willing to sell.
Although PCs are free to pick any class they want. Wizards tend to be more rare in my recent campaigns.
Roll Randomly on the tables to see whats in the hoard?
Strange, I haven't rolled randomly for almost 20 years. I stock my hoards for story. The sword would be there for a particular reason.
while +1 swords are comparatively fairly common.
My players CAN get a +1 sword, although they might have to look around.
I'm here to make the game less fun for you my players.
That is insulting. You don't know what happens in my game. If you really think everyone should DM just like you, you obviously lack any appreciation of style.
But have you really increased the total amount of fun at the table?
You just don't get it. Not everyone makes the game fun in the same way. Not all gaming groups are the same, and not all campaigns are like yours. Now, I'm sure your table is lots of fun and you're just the bomb at making everyone have fun. But my players are having fun, too. Heck, a lot of the fun they have is created by them, not me. It's not MY game, it's OUR game. I'm not sitting around finding ways to make the game less enjoyable. I do not understand how you can come onto a thread with seasoned DMs on it and talk like that.
OK option Number Two - you take requests, so some how what the players want magically appears in the treasure hoard of the Huge Red Dragon. Its simply presumed that what they wanted was some how always there and future treasure hoards will also likely have at least some of what the PCs...
I have a pretty good idea what they need. And if you check my first post I mentioned that I give them chance to find things they need.
Again, I don't have big magic stores where the players can buy anything they want, but they can track things down. Sometimes it takes a special side trip, or they must buy it from someone who owns it but isn't a magic shop keeper. The possibilities are endless... unless you lack imagination.
Anyway heres my suggestion. Try both systems and then put it to a vote and see which way the players would prefer to play. I hear a lot of DMs talking about their gritty low magic campaign and how cool it is. There are probably hundreds of threads to that effect on these boards.
Thank you for the advice. I see that you started gaming in 1981, I'm sure it's sound.
Guess what, I have tried both kinds of campaign. Check out the 'about Kruelaid page' and you will see I have had plenty of time to try all kinds of things out. I posted on this thread innocently mentioning my take on the OP and first you turned it into 'it's about power' then you suggested I'm making the game 'not fun'.... I just don't get it, Jerry, is there some reason you want me to do things your way that you're not mentioning?
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...if you bring up two dozen unholy battleaxes from wiping out an evil cult, Good proprietors might tell you to bury them or take them to the temple to be destroyed instead.
Some campaigns assume that good temples give out an appropriate reward for evil items being turned in for destruction, so as to take them out of the shadow economy. So the mechanics of 'selling' them remain the same, but the campaign flavour is slightly different.
(And the temples spies can also look out for anyone commisioning such an item, too...with grisly results. "Could you tell us why you need a celestial-bane sword, or shall I just throw you to the hound archons?").
This does tend to bump into a few problems at high level. If the players want something a little odd, like say a +2 Holy Cold burst Trident its going to be hard to think that ones in stock or even lying around. Well one could have it crafted but its what a +5 equivalent item? That means it'll take 25 days to make and the more powerful stuff starts to take even longer.
Why not ask the merfolk community? I bet they're not half as rare for them?
This gives the PCs the option of tracking down such an item, and persuading its current owner to part with it. Instant plot-hook, with plenty of role=playing opportunity.
I'm here to make the game less fun for you my players.
That is insulting. You don't know what happens in my game. If you really think everyone should DM just like you, you obviously lack any appreciation of style.
I wrote that as a metagame problem with the purely random method of handing out magic items. I stand by the comment. I can't really see how a pure random method can generally overcome the problem of the players only rarely getting what they want. I think that, from a metagame perspective this is an issue with a pure random method of handing out magic in the game.
But have you really increased the total amount of fun at the table?
You just don't get it. Not everyone makes the game fun in the same way. Not all gaming groups are the same, and not all campaigns are like yours. Now, I'm sure your table is lots of fun and you're just the bomb at making everyone have fun. But my players are having fun, too. Heck, a lot of the fun they have is created by them, not me. It's not MY game, it's OUR game. I'm not sitting around finding ways to make the game less enjoyable. I do not understand how you can come onto a thread with seasoned DMs on it and talk like that.
I certainly don't believe any DM would consciously sit down and attempt to make the game less enjoyable for their players. However I do believe that DMs can make choices that are less optimal then other choices. Now I'm not at your table and I'll concede that there are always exceptions* but I'm arguing that outside of exceptional circumstances allowing players to purchase and sell magic items is generally the better design choice from a metagame perspective then various methods that slow or block player access to the magic items.
In particular I feel this is true because magic items are not really central to the DM in the same way as they are central to the players. The players will spend the whole game dealing with the method of magic distribution and it will very fundamentally alter their experience of the game. This is generally not true of the DM who will generally perform his tasks in a fairly similar manner whichever method utilized.
* Dark Sun is an example of a campaign where there is no real way players should be able to swap magic at all easily.
...if you bring up two dozen unholy battleaxes from wiping out an evil cult, Good proprietors might tell you to bury them or take them to the temple to be destroyed instead.
This is a mislabeled quote - those are not my words.
This does tend to bump into a few problems at high level. If the players want something a little odd, like say a +2 Holy Cold burst Trident its going to be hard to think that ones in stock or even lying around. Well one could have it crafted but its what a +5 equivalent item? That means it'll take 25 days to make and the more powerful stuff starts to take even longer.
Possibly - though presumably Merfolk use the same city wealth system as everyone else. This means that you need Merfolk Metropolises with tens of thousands of Merfolk to have a city large enough to support having magic items like this. Thats a lot of Merfolk. Some DMs might balk at placing Merfolk Metropolises of this scale.
I can't really see how a pure random method can generally overcome the problem of the players only rarely getting what they want. I think that, from a metagame perspective this is an issue with a pure random method of handing out magic in the game.
So everyone wants lots of magical items? I suppose if a player comes to D&D from WoW they might want and expect to totally gear up in magic. Frankly, mine don't seem to expect anything like that - they had something a little more LOTR in mind, and seem more interested in group storytelling.
I don't see from your generalizations why it is inherently better to have magical hypermarkets in game, Jerry. I can see why the game designers make this available, because certainly gamers might want to play this style of game, but all the same, a group can decide to play with low magic, and I don't see low magic players complaining. So if you were not being explicit earlier, and are talking about it being better from a GAME DESIGN perspective then yes, it's a good idea to include such markets. They can be taken out but are hard to put in. If you are talking about it being better for game play, and you were talking about both at the same time it seems, then you have nothing to support your argument; it's just a matter of preference how gamers build their worlds.
I keep thinking about you argument that you need markets when it's "only purely random" and it seems to me that the random system is designed to work with markets where you can trade in the same items that are rolled. If you get rid of the markets then you need to work on the randomness, yes, I agree.
But then I don't use random treasure, and my early posts explained that I give them access to what they need, so I guess I still don't understand your lengthy reply to my early post.
But then I don't use random treasure, and my early posts explained that I give them access to what they need, so I guess I still don't understand your lengthy reply to my early post.
Your post simply triggered what amounted to a small essay on the various alternatives to some form of magic market and why I don't agree with them.
I outline three possibilities that I can think of in that post and elaborate on my problems with each. It was never particularly about you though its obvously not going to be viewed favourably by anyone who does not agree with my point of view - which is fine by me. I did not make a post like that expecting everyone to agree.
Now I suppose we could all just agree that each DM makes his worlds differently and maybe thats even the best answer but its not a very interesting answer in terms of debating the pro's and cons of the magic mart system in 3.5 D&D on a message board.
Cool. I'm understanding you now.
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...if you bring up two dozen unholy battleaxes from wiping out an evil cult, Good proprietors might tell you to bury them or take them to the temple to be destroyed instead.
This is a mislabeled quote - those are not my words.
Yes; my mistake; it was Ross Byers.
You quoted him, and I thought I quoted you quoting him, but I got all dizzy.I was attempting to back you up, though, on the theory that even the vilest items can be 'sold', but maybe not in the sense of taking them to the shop on the street corner. A lot of DMs do like to have the PCs stuck with this crap. Can't sell it, can't admit you own it. Let's throw it in the lake...
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I don't do "magic shops" at all. However, I never have a problem with buying and selling magic. Essentially, I have told my players (we play in FR right now but are moving to Golarion very shortly) that there is a great deal of magic to be had if you know the right people. One does not enter a "shop" to buy items from the DMG/catalog per se but instead the process is abstracted and handled by me. If the characters are respected in the city or at least not known troublemakers, then they manage to use this network of merchants, adventurers, item crafters and artisans to buy and sell what they wish. They may also use black market connections to obtain items if they are trying to keep a low profile though the cost is much higher.
This concept of trafficking in magic items without a shop was just reinforced when the party wizard spent his downtime over the harsh winter crafting items and selling them to generate revenue to complete an even larger project he is working on. Suddenly the idea of having wizards making items, adventurers finding, buying and selling items and the general exchange of magic items all fit together rather nicely without ruining the player's immersion in the game. My only real exception to this approach are special items and spells, typically those that involve extra XP to create or that involve divine issues, which are typically not available without major roleplay and story reasons at any price.
This "indirect market approach", coupled with my players' desires to craft and augment their own items (the Cleric just finished a sunsword and he and the wizard routinely augment a Rod of Healing they made together), makes a 3.x magic system work for our group.
I was attempting to back you up, though, on the theory that even the vilest items can be 'sold', but maybe not in the sense of taking them to the shop on the street corner. A lot of DMs do like to have the PCs stuck with this crap. Can't sell it, can't admit you own it. Let's throw it in the lake...
I'd generally be very careful with the idea of the giving players junk that they can't sell and is dead weight. First off I feel much of the time this is just the DM annoying the players for no good purpose. Its unlikely to improve the game unless its really well thought out and plays into interesting story lines and such.
The other problem here is the DM is usually underestimating his players imagination and resourcefulness. This is the kind of thing that has a very bad habit of biting the DM in the ass when the players do figure out some unorthodox method for disposing of the loot. A big danger here is that the DM is subtly encouraging his players to head away from the plot into uncharted territory as they attempt to accomplish their goal of disposing of the loot. Much of the time, I suspect, the DM did not really think about that when he choose to give them magic loot thats just dead weight. This kind of thing can lead to a power struggle between the DM and the players over the direction and tone of the campaign.
So a DM that does this had best be ready for all the implications of this action becuase their far more wide spread then just the DM getting to chuckle evilly to himself about how he just screwed the players over.
I don't do "magic shops" at all. However, I never have a problem with buying and selling magic. Essentially, I have told my players (we play in FR right now but are moving to Golarion very shortly) that there is a great deal of magic to be had if you know the right people. One does not enter a "shop" to buy items from the DMG/catalog per se but instead the process is abstracted and handled by me.
I suspect that most people that use 'magic marts' use some variation on this if they actually stop to think about it (that is they don't just hand wave it). The idea of a magic shop with tons of +5 swords and such not only strains credibility but it potentially causes problems with NPC Greed not to mention PC greed. A shop full of 10 million gold worth of magic would surely be some kind of a target for thieves, if not NPC thieves then possibly PC thieves. Hence some method that disperses the magic around is needed. You can have a shop full of low level magic possibly or one full of masterwork items waiting to be enchanted but in general its pretty necessary to presume that the magic is generally held over a diverse group of people and that acquiring items is really a matter of going through contacts that will put you in contact with those that have or can make the items desired so as not to have too much money concentrated in too small a space.
I have nothing against placing a store that claims to sell only the finest magical items, but you'd have to be careful in that setting, atleast in my game. Imagine a shop owner pimping his selection of wands, all cheap replicas with Nystul's magic aura and a simple cantrip effect on them.
"Yes Sir these wands are of the finest quality, each one whittled and painted by naked elven maidens on a full moon. Each was personally enchanted and prepared by ancient wizards using the finest reagents and materials...and I have it on good authority that this wand here was used to deliver the final blow to Zartorkjit, the famous green dragon that terrorized the Southern Hills."
A dealer with decent bluff could easily unload these to a party that is greased from a recent adventure. My intention is not to fault the players, it's not a finger pointing scenario where I laugh at them for their sillyness. But it does happen in my games that they buy magic items, potions and such that occasionally don't work completely as intended. But I apply this across the board to magic and magical items, not to just those purchased from shady dealers. And lets not forget that it's entirely reasonable that laws are set concerning ownership of powerful magic items or the creation of such items. It's all well and good owning a +3 Vorpal Glaive of Soul rending but is it worth all the heat?
I do dislike the magical market scenario, with tons of extremely powerful magical items up for grabs. But I have less against there being plenty of low powered items, trinkets, stuff up for sale perhaps even in a bazaar like atmosphere. I tend to disregard alot of the magic item creation rules and make stuff up. A ring that adds +5ft to your climb speed or a sword that enhances your jumping ability is stuff that someone, somewhere may have found incredibly useful but it may not be a universally handy item. This tends to be my take on magic items, they're usually subtle and specific instead of being loud and universally handy, except in rare cases.
I also find the potion and item creation system in D&d to be abit stale. I've made up my own potion brewing system that removes magic from it entirely (though having magic is a big time saver) meaning everyone can be a alchemist. I've yet to have anyone show big interest in item crafting, but I've got some ideas to tinker with that process. The idea being that crafting an item and brewing a potion should be possible, just not as common as the D&D system makes it out to be.
I also pre-stock treasure in my encounters and base it off the area, creatures, location and such rather than the players themselves.
Man...I touched on a bunch of points there!
I guess in the end if a magical market works for you and your players, then go for it! It's a game and we're all here to have fun after all =D
I have nothing against placing a store that claims to sell only the finest magical items, but you'd have to be careful in that setting, atleast in my game. Imagine a shop owner pimping his selection of wands, all cheap replicas with Nystul's magic aura and a simple cantrip effect on them.
My concern here would be dealing with the situation when the players come looking for this guy to kill him or at least make him very much fear for his life and loot his store and maybe his home.
I have nothing against placing a store that claims to sell only the finest magical items, but you'd have to be careful in that setting, atleast in my game. Imagine a shop owner pimping his selection of wands, all cheap replicas with Nystul's magic aura and a simple cantrip effect on them.My concern here would be dealing with the situation when the players come looking for this guy to kill him or at least make him very much fear for his life and loot his store and maybe his home.
If that happens, the players are no longer heroes but the bad guys themselves. If they make that choice they can expect to deal with the law of your cities and quite likely a few adventures after them to collect any bounties on their head :)
I have all sorts of con artists in my campaign. generally i occassionally remind players of the rule "caveat emptor" Buyer Beware. If you look hard enough you can find just about anything, but theres also always someone out there who just wants to take your money.