As a thought exercise, I propose that posters on the fourth edition threads drop in here and make a top ten List like so:
Ten things that I dislike about fourth edition D&D:
1)
2)
3)
4)
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)
Then go to the brother thread:
The Dao of edition change:Yang. Write ten things you like about the new edition here.
Whatever your personal take on the new edition is, I hope to see people coming up with ten counterpoints.
As with any debate, you do not have to strongly believe your items.
This may serve to develop and strengthen empathy for the opinions of others.
If you wish to make companion metathreads, go for it.
Taliesin.
Ten things that I dislike about fourth edition D&D:
1) Astral diamonds
2) Lack of information on when sacred cows will come home.
3) Seeming lack of wilderness options, like the druid.
4) Square circles.
5) The expense of a new edition.
6) The digital initiative slaying the Dragon and looting the Dungeon.
7) Warlords being leaders, regardless of real group dynamics.
8) Godplate armour and what seems to be an MMORPG feel to many epic items.
9) The word "cool" used as a geek panacea.
10) The destruction of the realms by fiat, with the preposterous Elminster surviving it.
Ten things that I dislike about fourth edition D&D:
1) Where the frack are my gnomes, half-orcs, bards, barbarians, and druids? And for that matter, we get tieflings but no aasimar? WTF?
2) I enjoy RP characters with ranks in Profession. If I wanted a choppy-bit game, I'll flip my PS2 on.
3) Statting up NPCs is fun for me. Dumbing it down doesn't look like it helped any.
4) Everyone's a spellcaster (or something)!
5) I'm not uber-kewl-1337 enough for the game I love, marketing told me so.
6) I'm a canon-junkie. This whole "toss it into a blender and call the mush D&D" ain't flyin for me.
7) I don't know for sure, but it sure as sugar sounds like WoW...
8) DDI
9) I'm old and changes scares me
10) Why the hell does a reptilian race have breasts?
[I take nothing seriously]
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1) static saves to end ongoing effects - 10+ no matter how powerful the effect or the resistance
2) epic tier - I never liked it but could avoid it by not buying the book
3) lack of wilderness options - we got the ranger but not the druid or barbarian
4) high fantasy - I had hoped that it would get toned down
5) the end of Living Greyhawk - best RPGA campaign ever
6) a PC race that can teleport at will - this will get SO abused
7) squares that act like hexes - it should obey the laws of geometry
8) DDI tools for PCs only - Apple has a sizable growing market share
9) no print magazine support - I miss Dragon
10) the amount of time it will take to even com close to the number of PC class and race options that are available right now in 3.5 - 'nuff said
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Not really in a priority order:
1) the power-creep
2) the explicit hard-wiring of meta-gaming mechanics into the rules (as in character roles)
3) DDI and the lack of canon classes/races in the initial print realease
4) the marketing so far
5) different core rules for PCs opposed to monsters and the loss of flexibility in some creatures (as in the Pit Fiend)
6) fixed XP per creature/opponent/whatever and static saves for ongoing effects (bundled them together)
7) the per-encounter mechanics
8) a lot of the fluff changes, mostly regarding the FR setting and the planar stuff
9) the gaming world gridded into squares instead of real measures
10) not dealing adequately (for my tastes, I must stress) with some shortcomings of the d20 system - mostly the too much generic HPs and AC "catch-it-all" values
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1) Measurements done in squares bugs me all to pieces
2) Infinite ranged attacks for spellcasters
3) Loss of traditional nine alignments
4) Monsters use different rules than PCs
5) Reported nerfing of craft and profession skills
6) Eladrins as a name for a race of elves
7) Eladrin teleports (ripe for abuse)
8) Healing surges
9) The loss of the traditional farm boy makes good motif
10) Three levels of armor for each armor type and all that goes with it game/concept wise
1. The slow death of Dungeon and Dragon
2. The overabundance of special and magical abilities for everybody
3. Mechanics hardwiring the setting
4. Killing off and mutilating the corpse of the Great Wheel
5. Nonsensical "new" monsters, such as the Elemental Archons
6. Throwing all the gods and campaign settings into a blender, then setting them on fire. Then calling it "D&D ala carbonnieri".
7. Buying new books all over again (especially Eberron)
8. Elminster and company still alive
9. Even more miniatures-focused than before
10. MMORPG elements such as striker/controller/tank/etc roles
Meh. Good enough to warrant some interest, bad enough to dampen my enthusiasm. We'll see.
I'll be combine things so I don't run out of bullet points too quickly:
1) Absence of many 3e core choices for races and classes, like half-orcs and druids.
2) Weird core choices for races and classes, like warlocks and dragonborn
3) What they did to the forgotten realms
4) Classes seem too restricted: Rogues have to learn thievery and must use certain types of weapon for their abilities.
5) Level restrictions on items like rings and "masterwork armour"
6) Doing away with 30 years of D&D history and basically rewriting the game from scratch, including the background.
7) Changes to races like elves, tieflings, dwarves.
8) Apparent hard-wiring of their new flavour into the rules (so elves are now wild forest dwellers - so far so bad, but now classes have tons of rules that support their roles)
9) Names like Astral Diamonds and Feyleather and Godplate.
10) Unnecessary simplyfied rules like no power attack, or diagonals always counting as one square. Oh, and the square thing itself.
And I only mentioned the stuff about the rulebooks themselves. There's also the stuff about the SRD, the DDI, the (lack of) OGL, their "Marketing".
this one i can do
1 death of 30 years of fluff
2 x3 hp at first level
3 did you see what they did to FR
4 killing off the mags
5 leaving out races and classes from the PHB
6 the gods awful naming..god leather i mean really
7 magic items work based on your level
8 loss of save or die effects
9 tieing the game even more into mini's
10 static saves
11 square i mean come on
oops one to many sorry thats as small as i can make my list i could have went to about 30 though
Ten things that I dislike about fourth edition D&D:
1) There is question as to whether errata are free.
2) The game seems to require a battlemat, which I'd just as soon not have at all.
3) Gnomes are left out.
4) Tieflings are a strange core race.
5) There are no longer print Dragon and Dungeon mags to support the game.
6) I'm not sure how easily other setting will fit with 4e's mechanics.
7) Druids are left out.
8) I question the flexibility of creating exactly the character you want based on what I've seen so far.
9) Dragonlance won't be supported next year despite a silver anniversary.
10) 4e is splintering the D&D community and will probably continue to do so even after it has been released.
1. The utter destruction of Forgotten Realms and the death of hundreds of characters that have appeared in books for the last twenty or so years.
2. Marketing that tells me that “We know that game you’re playing sucks. You don’t think it does, but it really does. So in six months it’s going to be SOOOOO COOOLLL!! We can’t tell you how, but it’s going to be sooo much better than that crap you’re playing now! (But in the mean time, here, keep buying 3.5 so we don’t go broke while putting out the new addition.)
3. Trashing the cosmology that’s been around for 30 years just because “They” couldn’t make sense of it and replacing it with a new cosmology that makes even less sense.
4. Tieflings and half dragons (I don’t care what they call them, they’re half dragons.) being turned into core species even though templates like infernal and half dragon have been done to death in 3.5, and scrapping gnomes from the core classes, and Metallic dragons from the Monster Manual.
5. The end of Greyhawk.
6. Healing abilities on non cleric characters.
7. First level characters with 25 ht pts.
8. The idea that all characters should be created equal, even though the best characters I’ve ever played with (Either as a Dm or a Player) have flaws that make them difficult to play.
9. DELVE FORMAT!
10. The loss of Dungeon & Dragon Magazine as a print, hold it in my hand, Get excited opening my P.O. Box every month and turning it into a poor quality digital download in DELVE FORMAT!
11. Talk of a morality clause in the OGL.
12. Putting a gag order on their play testers, and then lifting it, but telling them they can only say ‘good’ things about the game.
13. 4E not being compatible with 3.5, 3.0, 2E, 1E, or even Basic! And not offering a conversion, because the games are so fricking different they won’t mesh.
14. Sitting on the new Game License and basically cutting out all of their competition so that when they launch 4E, they will be the only game in town for a while.
15. And finally, the total disregard, and disrespect shown to the thirty plus year history of the game, the world, and the players. And the altering of the Game to the point that it doesn’t even resemble D&D.
I know you said 10, but it wasn’t enough space.
Ten things that I dislike about fourth edition D&D:
1) killing Dungeon and Dragon, and reworking them as online "product".
2) the smarmy "we know best" marketing, which hasn't yet toned down.
3) the great pruning down of gods and planes, and making sure that everyone will follow the same new world-makeup.
4) all PC classes now fit into a "required party role" category (tank, DPS, etc.) rather than going back to the iconic roleplaying roles of original DnD. The focus becomes even heavier on rule/role battle requirements rather than RP.
5) removal of long-standing races and classes for "ultra-kewl" (and apparently no-longer-rare) part-demon and part-elemental races.
6) intentionally going ahead with a plan that they knew would further divide the RPG community (like we need any more fracturing), and simply shut out a large chunk of older consumers.
7) miniatures and battlemats are now pretty much required.
8) the over-abundance of special abilities for all PC classes, particularly things like Fey Step that are sure to be abused.
9) revamping Vancian magic would have been fine, but they've replaced it with part-Vancian magic. Way to make the game feel even more like an MMO game.
10) the complete gutting of the Forgotten Realms, and blender-izing it with elements of Warcraft and Dragonlance. The new Realms are barely recognizable.
First they came for Dungeon and Dragon, then they came for Roleplaying, and soon after they'll kill the fun.
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There should be a third thread, the Zen of 4E, what is everyone talking about that you don't give a rat's rump about. :)
Anywho, stuff I don't care for;
Number one with a bullet. Different rules for PCs and NPCs. Wait, making me learn *two* quasi-compatible systems is going to make it *easier* for me? Uh, no. I have only the one brain, and it will beat it's way out of my skull and crawl away to safety the first time I try to run a combat where the guys on the left side of the map use one set of rules and the guys on the right side of the map use another set of rules, and then one of them shapechanges into, summons or mind controls one of the others, and suddenly becomes a wailing tentacled abomination, trapped between two rules systems.
2. Every class gets at will, per encounter and dailies? Gosh, thats kinda restrictive to a single playstyle. If 25% of players *love* this new style, then 75% are left holding their cheese, wondering if WotC will produce some classes that use mechanics more to their style of play within the next 12 months. (Cause the Rogue, Wizard and Fighter presented significantly different styles of play, and have since 1st Edition, thus appealing to *a wider base of players.* Shrinkage, never good. Not in the bedroom, not in the gaming market. Say no to shrinkage. We need growthage! 10 million Viagra customers can't be wrong!)
3. Standardized magical / special gear by level. 'Assumed' party loot by level. I like variety.
4. The 4E marketing presentation, which has so far done nothing to assuage the fear that the game is going to have all of the campaign utility of Warhammer Quest (which is a great game, but not exactly built for role-playing, intrigue, story arcs, etc.) We fight, fight, fight, encounter ends, and we are teleported to the start of the next room to fight, fight, fight some more? Worst. Presentation. Ever. This isn't a role-playing game. It's a freaking Dungeon Delve! (Which I love, *once a year at GenCon*, but it's like throwing out all of GURPS and going back to play Man to Man.)
5. Yeah, I'm still pissed about Dungeon (of which I have all) and Dragon (since issue 47, when I started playing) going away.
6. DDI. Wow, the ability to play online? That could be cool! Every bit of errata or online information that I used to get for free now costing me cash on a monthly basis, for a DI that had blown every deadline presented and seems to be distinctly not worth any price for admission? Enthusiasm waning... Shock him again, I think we're losing him!
7. Loss of 3rd party support. I loved the Scarred Lands setting. I loved a lot of Green Ronin's stuff (Mutants & Masterminds, Freeport adventures, Advanced Players Guide, Plot & Poison, Arcana: Societies of Magic, etc, etc). Ryan Nock's Elements of Magic rocked. Monte's Arcana Unearthed and Book of Eldritch Might III were *awesome.* Buh-bye.
8. Melding of setting-specific elements into a schizo 'generic setting.' Bane is awesome, but he doesn't belong in the same world with Pelor. Make up yer own darn pantheon and setting! Get yer grubby (not Jeff Grubb, he's cool) offa mah stuff!
9. More marketing-specific stuff. I can survive one or two immoderate designers who say that my game is boring and that 3.5 is boring homework or whatever, but when they *consistently* base their entire presentation on '3.5 sucks, 4E is better' instead of actually just setting me the game, rather than trashing the game *they just sold me,* and, by extension, insulting the designers who freaking hired them (cause they wrote that awful unplayable boring crap) and the customers who bought that awful unplayable boring crap, it feels less like marketing and more like a political debate, where two potentially competent candidates spend 2 hours telling me *nothing* about what they stand for, because they're too busy hurling crap at each other about their sex lives or whatever.
If they pulled back from the marketing speak, they might notice that we're kinda sick of that, and would rather hear why 4E is gonna rock our boxers, not be told that we are stupid sheep for buying the last product they sold us.
Eventually the sheep looks up and says, 'Did you call me stupid? And now you *want* something from me?'
10. Sounds like a *whole* lotta special exceptions (half of the monsters having unique abilities dreamt up just for them, and Pelor only knows how they are gonna interact with each other, or PC abilities, of which there may also be metric buttloads) and fiddly numbers adjustments mid-combat as different situational abilities or short-term buffs come into play. I'm not exactly a math whiz, so the very much increased 'mathiness' has me a little skeered.
11. Yeah, I go all the way up to 11, cause I'm hardcore like that. 11 is for Sehanine Moonbow. There are a half-dozen Seldarine that I love to death (all created by Roger Moore, but not the one with the license to kill), and a dozen other racial dieties that I love to death, and that lying wench Sehanine that showed up late to the party and claimed to have always been there, and that Lolth never existed, and that Corellon was her husband, and that she created the elven race while he just stood around and bled, oh, I loathe that phony retcon elf-goddess.
She taints 4E by her presence alone, but that notion that she made it, and Aerdrie and Deep and Arvoreen and Flandal and Urdlen, the Crawler Below are gone? Oh <bleep> no.
1) No genuine low-level play (the playtest 1st level PCs look like 5ths to me)
2) Monster abilities jury-rigged rather than built from a consistent basis
3) Sharp mechanical dividing line between PCs and other characters
4) PC abilities that are too extreme for most standard fantasy settings, such as Fay Step
5) Proliferating statuses leading to lots of bookkeeping
6) Limited distinction between two characters of the same class
7) Apparent emphasis on constructed encounters rather than coherent gameworld
8) Outrageous amounts of available healing
9) Upcoming explosion of splatbooks to re-instate everything that was left out
10) Incompatibility with previous editions
Probably any three of 1-8 would be dealbreakers for me.
I would also mention the advertising campaign, and the shoddy treatment of the third party companies, but those are criticisms of the company rather than the product itself.
Mary
1. I have to buy all-new books instead of using the thousands of dollars I've spent on 3e/3.5.
2. Astral diamonds seem... sorta lame.
3. I played WoW and it didn't really take. I'm not entirely confident of 'per-encounter' powers and 'per-day' powers. In 3e, if someone wants to blow all their turn undead attempts in one encounter, they really are probably better off doing that than only being able to do it once per encounter.
4. 'Per encounter' at all. What if my character is walking along a road and wants to use an encounter power? Do I have to get in an encounter first? What exactly constitutes an encounter, since 'encounters' now seem to be larger and more involved.
5. Monsters that don't use the same rules as players. In 3e, I liked this because it meant a player armwrestling a troll, or a skeleton, or a dragon, wasn't a matter of DM fiat, it had rules and Strength scores.
6. The positive hype about it on the Wizards site. I'm not bashing, just not happy.
7. The vehemence in some peoples' posts about 4e. If Paizo has lost customers because of 4e, that's really not fair.
8. Everyone having ninja powers/ The fighter can "this", the eladrin can "that". I have players that never shut up about their characters already... do I really need more of this?
9. Again, the money. I'm very disappointed about this, because just before 4e was announced, I maxed out my credit card on buying a whole pile of the 'complete' books and trying to 'complete' me 3.5 library... and it was wasted.
10. ...
When it comes down to it, it's really the money concern and the 'I have to buy new books' concern that are the worst. I think a lot of people probably feel quite hurt about this, and I don't know how to fix it.
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1. There's
2. nothing
3. to dislike
4. because
5. the
6. new
7. edition
8. isn't
9. out
10. yet.
I have avoided posting in the 4e forums precisely because of this. It's hard to understand why everybody is so worked up when the game hasn't even been released. And crappy phone camera pictures of single pages of rulebooks out of context do not constitute a rules release IMO.
So I'll wait to see what I dislike when the rules are actually released and I can see ALL of them.
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Wayfinder, PaizoCon Founder
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I have avoided posting in the 4e forums precisely because of this. It's hard to understand why everybody is so worked up when the game hasn't even been released. And crappy phone camera pictures of single pages of rulebooks out of context do not constitute a rules release IMO.So I'll wait to see what I dislike when the rules are actually released and I can see ALL of them.
I am 100% in agreement with SargonX. What we've seen is snippets and betas of rules as they evolve into a release form. I am in no way saying that you can or cannot love or hate what you see. What I AM saying is that you haven't seen the whole thing, together, in one cohesive package. For that, you must wait.
1. There's
2. nothing
3. to dislike
4. because
5. the
6. new
7. edition
8. isn't
9. out
10. yet.I have avoided posting in the 4e forums precisely because of this. It's hard to understand why everybody is so worked up when the game hasn't even been released. And crappy phone camera pictures of single pages of rulebooks out of context do not constitute a rules release IMO.
So I'll wait to see what I dislike when the rules are actually released and I can see ALL of them.
Yes, the books aren't out yet, but all the 'here's what we're going to do' books are out. D&DX has happened, and WotC has posted some of their stuff on the web. It's not like this is a blind discussion any more. If you feel that you don't have enough information to make a decision, fair enough. But the rest of us do feel that there is enough out there to debate.
1) Destruction of "Gygaxian" lore and mechanics of D&D---many sacred cows were mercilessly slaughtered for no apparent reason. They could've kept them and changed them to make them more fun, but destroying them outright is just wrong. A shame to the man's great legacy.
2) The fact you need to "upgrade" constantly to get back into your D&D game what you had before. Bards, druids, barbarians, monks, (and that's just classes) you have to buy more books for.
3) It's being catered to a crowd of people I honestly don't believe should be playing D&D. I'm not saying they don't have a right to play it, I'm saying they shouldn't be because they'll cause changes in the game that the more "niche" crowd of D&D players has been used to or tweaked already and these other people want to simply overhaul the system to their liking and affect everyone with it.
4) The game is no long an RPG, it's being treated as a CCG
5) The fact that all the rules are simply an enhanced version of playing D&D Minis.
6) The hypocrisy in it being a simpler game when there's complexities with the game already and it hasn't been out yet or played by the public past 1st-level.
7) The fact these changes could've been implemented in 3rd Edition but wasn't.
8) The early release and the scams behind it. 3.5 being worked on as 3.0 was released, and 4E being worked on only after just 2 years of 3.5e being released...just despicable.
9) The horrible marketing
10) The complete incompatibility between 4E and previous editions. Conversion is IMPOSSIBLE. I can't even port 4E stuff backwards much less port older editions to 4E.
11) The destruction of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (had to add this)
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1. The Elemental Chaos
2. The Demon/Devil thing
3. The destruction of the Realms
4. The Elf/Eladrin thing
5. Stealing stuff from Greyhawk to put in the "core" world.
6. No more Dragon or Dungeon Magazine
7. Tieflings as a core race
8. The timing
9. The new death and dying rules (although this is more dislike than hate)
10. The Angels can be evil thing.
1. Diagonal movement that counts as 1 square.
2. Firecubes (see #1).
3. Death of print Dungeon and Dragon.
4. Removal of iconic monsters, classes, and races.
5. Removal of miss chance.
6. The nerfing of the OGL.
7. Watered-down definition of "core."
8. *Apparent* heavy use of Wayne Reynolds art. Sorry, just don't care for his stuff.
9. Grevious injuries that heal in six hours.(!?)
10. Retention of AC in the face of the consistency of reflex/will/fort defenses. Armor should have been some form of DR.
11. Diagonal movement that counts as 1 square.
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1) Halflings like water all of a sudden?
2) Still a battlemat mentality. Would really like a "no squares" option.
3) Opportunity attack slows down the game and still seems to be a major part and parcel. see #2
4) I'm a bit nervous about the "powers" thing. Sounds marvel-super-heroes-ish so going to wait and see. May have to get used to it.
5) Diagonal as 1 square. I understand but again see #2. If you're going to put up with counting squares, do it reasonably accurately.
6) There are two types of elves but not two of any other race and some aren't even around yet? What's with that?
7) Tieflings seem problematic for the religious folk. I'm an atheist so I don't care but want my players to be comfy happy. Notice how fast they changed the PHB cover? It's a reality of the real world.
8) My friends online all have to bicker at each other for weeks waiting for the new edition.
9) Paizo and other cool 3rd parties have to go through edition limbo-hell.
10) Talking Dragon fighters are all going to sound like "Worf" when role-played. That may be my most dreaded fear.
Ten things that I dislike about fourth edition D&D:
1) NonVancian magic. I'm just not sure if the flavor change will be what I've come to expect for my world. I've always used Vancian or a point system. I was thinking about trying the system from The Black Company CS or Thieves World but got derailed with 4e.
2) Death of Greyhawk and scavenging from its remains. Almost as bad as Fate of Istus. Yeah, would have preferred a decent burial.
3) PR. 'Nuff said.
4) Not fond of astral diamonds. I've used banking notes/mercantile notes from large trading families. Maybe for planar use could replace with Brass notes, backed up in a "hard" sense by efreeti wishes. Suppose they could be in "diamond" form as opposed to "paper" so they wouldn't burn :)
5) Everyone having powers. Not sure. Will have to see.
6) Simple base attack no longer being a "reasonable" option given at will features.
7) My retentive side really liked statting up NPC's and PC's with consideration to "down time", what they did when not adventuring. Forced me to think up background, setting flavor etc. Afraid I might lose inspiration or motivation without.
8) Eladrin teleporting
9) I've never used minis. Looks like a better start collecting buttons, bottle caps for markers ;)
10) Half-orcs should be core.
10) Talking Dragon fighters are all going to sound like "Worf" when role-played. That may be my most dreaded fear.
I think I would find it hilarious for a few sessions. But like most things I will get tired very quickly.
Here's to the hope for variety!
Hrms. 10 things I dislike huh? Let's see what I can scrabble down:
1) Tier limit on rings. Please let this be changed (I don't mind the limit generally, but I just don't think EVERY ring should follow it!)
2) Classes might have auto-picks for some class skills. I don't like all Rogues having to take Thievery and Stealth, even if 95% would have anyway. At least it seems easy to change though.
3) Dragonborn definitely shouldn't have boobs. Maybe this is a half-point, cause I still really like boobs.
4) Dragon and Dungeon. I miss 'em both. Hopefully once 4E is out the online version can be even half of what the print was (now its not even a fraction).
5) Slowness getting the GSL out.
6) uh ...
7) the fracturing of the community?
Sorry I only got 7 (and I kidna cheated on 6). I tried my best though!
Thanks to KaeYoss for reminding me of two particularly egregious issues I have (#1 and 2).
1. The delays
2. The quarrelling
3. The quarrelling
4. The quarrelling
5. The quarrelling
6. The quarrelling
7. The quarrelling
8. The quarrelling
9. The quarrelling
10. The quarrelling
Both side, both sides
3) Dragonborn definitely shouldn't have boobs. Maybe this is a half-point, cause I still really like boobs.
They have boobs? OMG...
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Ten things that I dislike about fourth edition D&D:
1) Loss of armours and magic item slots - A trend in the last 20 years of RPGs has been to lower the amount of items that a character gets, something that I've never liked (For instance, compare Final Fantasy X to Final Fantasy 3)
2) Astral Diamonds - The name and the source.
3) Loss of all the options currently in 3.5
4) Greyhawk
5) Some race and class options no longer being in the PH
6) Static saves
7) No longer having a magazine that's general
8) Fluff changes - While yes, I understand that if I do play 4e it will be in Golarian no matter what, I find it somewhat tough when a new person comes to the game after reading about the "core" deities and being told "Sorry, you have to read another book that partially uses the PH"
9) The anger of the various communities.
10) The abilities seem (at the moment) like there will be "good" abilities and "I had to take it as a prerequisite and I'll use it in a blue moon" abilities.
They have boobs? OMG...
3) Dragonborn definitely shouldn't have boobs. Maybe this is a half-point, cause I still really like boobs.
So I've heard. I don't have a copy of either preview book (and I had THOUGHT that a designer said they didn't, but then I think I saw another say they did ...)
So to sum it up, I'm kinda confused, but think they do? (Possibly unfortunately?)
1. I most two and a half months for the rules.
2. It has attracted a lot of haters ()h well, haters will hate and players will play, new games.
3. No gnomes in the PHB. Stupid! Stupid! Stupid!
4. I only have three.
5. I only have three.
6. I only have three.
7. I only have three.
8. I only have three.
9. I only have three.
10. I only have three.
...
4. I only have three.
... .
I have a fourth;
4. Movement and range given in square. My minds eye just doesn't picture range "6". I can picture a range of "30 feet", but not "6".
5.
6. I only have 4.
7. I only have 4.
8. I only have 4.
9. I only have 4.
10. I only have 4.
Thank you everyone for posting here. Please go to the companion thread and write the counterpoints. See the original post.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Given in no particular order, but as they come to my mind. Its quite possible i forgot something
1. Static Defense values. It takes even the illusion of control from the players hands
2. Extreme setting changes. The Realms are dead to me
3. New "generic" background. I actually happened to like the great wheel.
4. Exception-based monster design. While it could be tedious some of the time, the "monsters as characters" approach encouraged "mastery" of the rules. You could get by knowing only a small set of rules really well.
5. Shift in tone. Warlocks and Tieflings should be exceptions rather than default.
6. Mixed signals regarding what DDI is, how necessary it is to subscribe to it, etc.
7. Removal of frailties from characters (instakills, low-level mortality)
8. ...
9. ...
10. ...
1) The changes in FR (but good for paizo because i am starting to moving towards Golarion)
2) The fact that I will not be able to play the druid
3) Marking (the paladin one mostly)
4) The concept of halflings
5) the fact that i have to spend a big amount of euros for similar books (which nevertheless i will do)
........
That should be all since i am a pro
Ten things that I dislike about fourth edition D&D:
1) It splits the community (imho because of lame marketing) BADLY
2) "Old socks for a new price" - I don't want to buy loads of RPG-books AGAIN
3) 3.5 rules work fine for me - I haven't even finished exploring everything possible "Never touh a running system
4) Tons and Tons and Tons of 3.5 Adventures and Campaigns await being played
5) I have no more room for another big rpg (25 yards are enough)
6) It took me a LONG time to convince my wife and group to play D&D once in a while - I will not have this discussion again just to change the system
7) I hate the FR changes
8) I like the challenges of a limited spell/hp/whatever supply, my players are mature and intelligent enough to solve problems in another way, when they run out of firepower
9) I experienced too often, that a rules-switch - even if the rules got better after it - destroyed a game. Don't want to see it again.
10) I miss the time I lost arguing about an in my eyes useless switch
Shame on me, I forgot Greyhawk, Dragon and Dungeon, the Gnomes! Never forget the Gnomes, and the Halflings, they grew! Three-Quarterlings! :-)
1) Warlocks & warlords.
2) Eladrin, Tieflings and Dragonborn (as standard races)
3) Lack of OGL
4) That wizards need staves, wands or orbs.
5) ‘Random’ healing
6) Slaughtering of Sacred Cows instead of offering a variant.
7) Firmly cementing D&D into “high fantasy”
8) Marking system that seems logically inconsistent
9) Heavily minis/battlemat focused
10) Power creep
Thank you everyone for posting here. Please go to the companion thread and write the counterpoints. See the original post.
If you can't say anything nice...
As a thought exercise, I propose that posters on the fourth edition threads drop in here and make a top ten List like so:
Ten things that I dislike about fourth edition D&D:
1)
2)
3)
4)
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)Then go to the brother thread:
The Dao of edition change:Yang. Write ten things you like about the new edition here.
Whatever your personal take on the new edition is, I hope to see people coming up with ten counterpoints.
As with any debate, you do not have to strongly believe your items.
This may serve to develop and strengthen empathy for the opinions of others.
If you wish to make companion metathreads, go for it.
Taliesin.
Okay, I'll play. :) I like what we've seen so far on 4E but I'm sure I can come up with 10 things I don't like. Let's see:
1) I don't like the first PHB being limited to just 8 Classes. I understand that there will be others, and agree with that move, but think the first book should have a wider variety; a dozen Classes would have been my minimum. People shouldn't have to wait a year for some Classes that have always been considered Core.
2) I hate the way the GSL is being handled. I would have preferred WotC make this a higher priority and I wish they were being more open with the community in general as to what they're changing and why. And I hope they understand that we, the customers, WANT 3rd party publishers to be able to make rules, Classes, powers, the whole ball thing.
3. I hate the fact that you are fully Healed after only 6 hours of rest. Maybe there's another, optional or not, mechanic in there to simulate a bit of injury, but if there's not the 6 hour rule doesn't really cut it in my book.
4) I don't like that they're not (as far as we know) adding in optional rules for the simulationists out there. I know the game is going towards the gamist side of the spectrum, and I'm glad for that, but think some traditional simulationist-type rules and add-ons should be there for those who want them.
5) I don't like that you have to lose old Abilities to get new ones.
5) I don't like that they didn't go with a Wound system of some sort, even as only a core option.
6) I don't like Eldarins and wish they would have just kept them as another type of elf.
7) I don't like what they did to the Realms. I would have preferred a Time of Troubles type event instead of the spellfire (is that right?) one they went with.
8) I don't like the way they handled limiting magical items to slots.
9) I don't like the 1:1 movement in squares they implemented.
10) I don't like the way Dungeon and Dragon magazines were dropped in favor of a useless DDI initiative which hasn't been on schedule and isn't of very good quality. They bit off more than they could chew, there, and should have used Paizo to help them sell the idea of 4E instead of alienating fans before they even got a chance to see what was going on.
I just got back from the other thread. Like there I'm trying not to influence my picks based on what other people have said so there may well be some overlap. Fair Warning. This is a GREAT idea by the way. Thanks!
1. A lot of stuff feels recycled, a good chunk lifted wholecloth from Exalted or Warcraft. This is obvious in game mechanics, class design choices, as well as whole parts of the Core Cosmology.
2. The new stuff is really gonzo. It's trying too hard to be a Yes album cover at the risk of not feeling like a living, breathing setting.
3. The devils, the poor poor devils. Their storyline just don't make no sense and it could have easily been fixed.
4. The Core Setting is looking less and less to be a setting at all--but more of a template to slap onto other games--which it really isn't designed for, being chock full of specific names and places (this one really bugs me!)
5. The artificial rift between "heroes" and everyone else, with totally different mechanics and everything. Makes the world seem a lot less credible.
6. A shift from monsters being interesting and culturally unique to monsters being fun combat encounters with mondo powers.
7. The sterilization of magic. Magic used to be unpredictable and fun, and could be used in creative ways. It seems like wherever possible the magic has been simplified in such a way as to make it hard to use in fun innovative ways.
8. Class design feels a lot more video gamey. A lot of the powers don't even try to make sense. The game mechanics show through too much.
9. In or out. They make radical changes, but then keep some stuff untouched. They kill off the brass, bronze and (ARG!) copper dragons, introduce adamantine and iron, and give the green dragon a nose horn. Nothing else changes. It feels really uneven and unsatisfying. I would have like to have seen a real shakeup across the board.
10. The end of the magazines. It just about made me throw up my hands. I left for a good long time with no intention to return. These guys at WotC had no better allies than Dungeon and Dragon, and what they've done with the legacy online just makes me sad. Really if it's any suprise to anyone that the "anti-4e venom" is really anything more "anti-axing Paizo's license venom" then I'm slackjawed with disbelief. Most of this hate doesn't come from trollishness. It comes from love and loyalty. We're an awesome community, and when we feel like our guys are getting roughed up--it makes us band together like romany. Unfortunately 4e has become the target of this. The funny thing is, from all accounts Paizo's doing better with Pathfinder than ever before. Doesn't take the mad out of people though.
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This one is too easy
Ten things that I dislike about fourth edition D&D:
1)4e divided the game community into camps
2)I no longer feel a part of the target audience
3)I believe 4e killed Dragon and Dungeon, my favourite magazines
4)The rest has already been said to death and is not worth mentioning again.
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)
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In no particular order:
1. Goofy powers...I smite a foe and my ally gets +3 ac...5 squares away.
2. Related to #1: dnd minis feel of the game run at DnDXP
3. PCs who get to teleport at 1st level...agree with Crosswired...seems abusable to the extreme
4. Healing surge name....would prefer just second wind...be done with it
5. Re-set of rules...go back to square one...not really square one ,but it is annoying....and expensive.
6. Combat not truly being faster....just round by round...but initial reports seem to indicate that it is just as long to get through a combat.
7. 10 or higher saving throws ....for all round by round effects.
8. The appearnce that each pc class does the same amount of basic damage as any other pc...ie, at will powers that are just differently named ,but essently the same damage.
9. Labeling of non-Lawful/Good paladins....always found that annoying....Champions of differing alignments/beliefs are fine...but don't call them "evil" paladins...loved the 3e Blackguard..hated the 1e/2e "Anti" Paladin.
10. NPC stats appearing to be different than PC stats of the same level ....check out the "human mage" vs the 1st level wizard from DnD XP.
These are more or less in order of dislike:
1. Why warlock, warlord and no druid, monk, barbarian, or bard. (Screams lazy to me.)
2. Wizard basically functions as a sorcerer did in 3rd edition.
3. Clerics seem to be too watered down now.
4. Magic missile requires a roll to hit...(why not make it a lesser orb spell and make magic missile autohit for a higher level effect?)
5. I like the idea but not the implementation of negative hitpoints and dying.
6. Not sure I like how weapons are being differentiated. (+to hit versus damage potential)
7. I don't like the idea of having to subscribe to DDI to get certain content.
8. I don't like their marketing model nor their modification to the OGL to create the GSL. (I am assuming it is far more restrictive.)
9. Most of the fluff I have read.
10. Some of the power mechanics seem almost impossible to explain with regard to a low fantasy, low magic setting.
Why not.
1. The evisceration of the Realms. It feels like they brought
everyone into a room blindfolded, placed the Realms hardbound on each lap, and told them to take both their index fingers and point down onto the book on their lap, and those were the things that were being changed or deleted from the setting.
2. Self-healing fighters.
3. Massive hp kobolds (reflecting a lot on the system wholly).
4. The loss of Dragon and Dungeon. Crimes against gaming like this should carry the death penalty.
5. Different rules for PCs and NPCs. Why am I not surprised?
6. The ever-widening gulf between every edition's fans. Eventually, we'll all be playing our own edition. Heh.
7. The removal of gnomes (unforgiveable!), and inclusion of more alien species as core races. Is this Starcraft or D&D?
8. "Removal of miss chance." I had to read this one twice. Bugleyman wrote this one, and if true, further proves that they want to eliminate as much risk as they possibly can to the characters.
9. WotC's fear of character death or injury, as evidenced by their ever-increasing healing rates and setback recovery methods. It started with 3e, and has been steadily gaining momentum.
10. Teleporting characters via a racial ability. They might as well add a Gate ability so everyone can go too.
11. The MMO-ization of D&D. You can almost hear the "chink" of the magic items as they pop into their respective character slots...lol.
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Ten things that I like about what we have heard in regards to 4th ed.
1, The problems with the GSL and third party publishers.
2, All of the arguing and anger spread around by the change.
3, I really like Half-orcs and Barbarians.
4, It appears that wizards are losing their utility spells and becoming more concentrated on just combat. What about the friendly hedge wizard who uses his magic to help the village with crops and entertain the children at festival time?
5, All of the special abilities. A lot of people wouldn’t play wizards or clerics because of too many options. Now it appears that every class has too many options for these people to feel comfortable.
6, Monsters using different rules.
7, Demon blooded, dragon blooded, and people who makes evil pacts are now “Core” while people who entertain others, or work with the beauty of the natural world, or who have a powerful temper are left out completely. Very unbalanced, and promotes a style of game world that I’m not sure I want to take part in.
8, All of my books being declared useless by the game designers because they don’t believe in backwards compatibility.
9, Being told that after I buy the book, for a higher price than before, I need to also pay for an online version of the rules errata that the publishers couldn’t be bothered to have made a part of the book in the first place.
10, Knowing that I am going to have to house-rule the PHB in order to make the world that I like gaming in, and thus having to argue with players because they feel entitled to play a demon blooded character or a half dragon character and telling me that I’m being an (Apple Tart) for saying no. It was bad enough with these things as side options in 3.5.
I would have preferred a Time of Troubles type event instead of the spellfire (is that right?) one they went with.
Spellplague. Spellfire was the raw magic ability only a few souls had at a time: Forget spells and all that messing with the weave, you just use raw magic Ignore all defenses and blast away. Spell Resistence helps you not a bit against it.
The few spellfire wielders that existed were pitiable - they were ten times as powerful as your average spellcaster (or so), but that doesn't help against the hundred or so who were chasing them any given time: Get that guy/girl and then dissect them to find out how they do it. Or otherwise get them to do your bidding. Perfect weapon and all since nothing really helps.
There's a weakened vesion (silverfire) that Mystra used to grant her Chosen.
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Alright Here I go:
1. At will, per encounter and per day abilities for everybody.
2. Self Healing for everybody.
3. Elves turned into Eldrain and Elves.
4. Loss of Classes and Races that are necessary.
5. Addition of Classes and Races that are not necessary.
6. Power increase at 1st level.
7. New saving throw mechanic and defences.
8. New death and dying mechanic.
9. Loss of profession, craft and perform skills.
10. Different rules for PCs, NPCs, and Monsters.
The list could go on.
Thank you all for fleshing out these lists as well as you are doing. This is the sort of data I find useful in my decisions. Everybody seems to be focusing on the system, which is very constructive. This is exactly what I wanted. Thanks again.
**Obligatory reminder to post on the Yang thread too.**
I...
7. The sterilization of magic. Magic used to be unpredictable and fun, and could be used in creative ways. It seems like wherever possible the magic has been simplified in such a way as to make it hard to use in fun innovative ways.
...
I never thought about that. Good point Mr. Grimcleaver.