Well, the OP got their wish. The last free and open forum is now moderated. I hope whatever was gained was worth whatever was lost.
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It is and thank you.Yes, I have tried. Let me know if this is more acceptable.Stereofm --
Personal attacks directed at the members of another messageboard are unacceptable. If you'd like to repost your thoughts minus the vitriol and name-calling, please feel free to do so. (Your post is suppressed -- only you can see it.)
And as thanks for taking the time to run this board, I have even decided to delete it entirely.
Well, the OP got their wish. The last free and open forum is now moderated. I hope whatever was gained was worth whatever was lost.
That's incorrect and an overstatement of what's occurred today. Gary and I are shifting the tone of the 4E boards. We have not moderated anything outside of the 4E threads and shall continue to rely on self-moderation by our awesome community.
Paizo is an open community and will continue to be so as long as the community allows it to stay that way. If all of our sub boards were filled with vitriol and personal attacks, we'd moderate the whole thing -- but since that vitriol is limited to this one small (10 foot by 10 foot) room of our website, we're going to make sure that room stays as clean and fun as the rest of the rooms at Paizo Castle.
The reason I frequent these boards and have grown to like Paizo's online presence is because it is without doubt the most open D&D community I have come across. The OP's encouragement of censorship simply because he finds criticism uncomfortable (on a board which he rarely frequents, even), smacks of intolerance and censorship.
BarelyCoherent will boycott Paizo some of it's patrons said unpleasant things about 4E? Two can play that game, and I guarantee that "if Paizo implements the kind of draconian censorship found on other boards that I will not be hanging around." Such threats are juvenile anyway.
The very basis of a forum is open debate and free speech. Suppressing it for the sake of not offending someone will guarantee a dull, politically-correct environment that few will want to inhabit.
This is a very friendly community, the recent ructions notwithstanding, far friendlier than some the OP has mentioned, and luckily free of the cliques and petty, tyrannical moderators found elsewhere, and I hope it stays that way.
You do make some good points, Krypter, and I hope it doesn't come to some kind of censored, insipid echo chamber. Our discussions have run the gamut of politics, religions and other hot button topics and while it's gotten heated, it's not gotten out of control. With 4th Edition, however, the rules for healthy debate are rapidly getting eroded. If someone at Paizo has to step in and act in the role of the Speaker of the House to keep things from getting too poisonous, then so be it.
I feel a bit sorry for the OP. If only he visited just a few other threads on here. Especially the ones where we are all running the Adventure Paths, I have never stumbled upon a friendlier, helpful and more fellowship-like feel on any message board. Which is exactly why I stay here and continue to feel welcome.
-DM Jeff
I should also take a moment to second this feeling. Our Adventure Path boards are beyond awesome (X-treme Awesome?). When I started the Shackled City AP a few years back, I used a fan-created minis list to supply minis for the AP. I know Lisa has used fan-created adventure hooks and side treks to run her Shackled City group.
There's a lot of creative, fun stuff going on in those threads and I'd hate for someone to ignore them just because one small subset of our boards has recently gotten a little out of hand.
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I tend to hop around message boards during the day, and I'm kinda shocked to go to one of the sites the OP lists as 'friendly' and completely lacking in the 'venom' found here, only to read thread after thread of somebody asking some fairly innocuous question about a particular weapon or a rules interpretation regarding some Clerical Domain only to receive derision and contempt.
I had drank the kool-aid, and believed him for a second that this board was nastier than others, but I'm now noticing that in *non-4E threads,* pound for pound, the 'nice' message boards seem to be holding their own in the abuse competition.
Frying pan, fire, there seems to be hot spots everywhere.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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I must have been hanging out at the wrong section of these boards (or the right one). I think of these boards as some of the more civil and respectful I've seen ... certainly WotC's own were nastier from what I saw. I appreciated the fact that these boards were unmoderated and am saddened to hear that this is one more space where the offended get to call the shots on what can and can't be said. I encourage Paizo to continue their policy of being as hands-off as they feel is possible in their moderation of these boards.
I encourage Paizo to continue their policy of being as hands-off as they feel is possible in their moderation of these boards.
And we shall continue to do so as long as our community allows us to.
I wouldn't worry about any moderation, guys. It's obviously going to be light and only in regards to the standards as listed at the top of the 4E forums.
No personal attacks against other members, companies, and messageboards.
That's a pretty simple standard to hold ourselves to. I don't think it will interfere in any way, other than that, when we get emotional, we won't be hitting the "Submit Post" button on that long rant telling off some other person for being an idiot, or whatever.
Paizo is an open community and will continue to be so as long as the community allows it to stay that way. If all of our sub boards were filled with vitriol and personal attacks, we'd moderate the whole thing -- but since that vitriol is limited to this one small (10 foot by 10 foot) room of our website, we're going to make sure that room stays as clean and fun as the rest of the rooms at Paizo Castle.
Y'know, lemme tell ya, it's kinda hard to get cheezed off and vitriolous when all YOU "moderators" do is come in here and actually talk to us like we're adults. I mean, c'mon! How can I get mad at the Man for keepin' me down and shuttin' me up if the Man keeps the lines of communication open and freely moving? Sheesh! *Goes to the WotC Boards for some abuse*
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I feel a bit sorry for the OP. If only he visited just a few other threads on here.
Damn skippy. Why, the "Untitled" Thread is one of the longest running on the boards. Just come on over and sit a spell. We ain't gonna bite ya none.
And the Great Smurf Experiment is truly a wonder to behold.
Lastly, I'd like to mention that I love the "Books" Section of the boards. I've gotten some great advice on new stuff to read, and stuff to keep away from.
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I wouldn't worry about any moderation, guys. It's obviously going to be light and only in regards to the standards as listed at the top of the 4E forums.
No personal attacks against other members, companies, and messageboards.
That's a pretty simple standard to hold ourselves to. I don't think it will interfere in any way, other than that, when we get emotional, we won't be hitting the "Submit Post" button on that long rant telling off some other person for being an idiot, or whatever.
You forgot "No Vomit Guy".
You forgot "No Vomit Guy".I wouldn't worry about any moderation, guys. It's obviously going to be light and only in regards to the standards as listed at the top of the 4E forums.
No personal attacks against other members, companies, and messageboards.
That's a pretty simple standard to hold ourselves to. I don't think it will interfere in any way, other than that, when we get emotional, we won't be hitting the "Submit Post" button on that long rant telling off some other person for being an idiot, or whatever.
Does it actually have to be said?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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@GentleGiant
I went to this place an ask what will the answer be? "Go away WoW-Jerk"?
Has anyone really replied to any of your questions here in these boards with that answer?
No today i was only called fascist on page one of this thread. ;-)
I see that here a lot of nice people but there are a minority of idiots that make this subboatd suck. They are on both camps. This thread is not about pro or anit 4e ist about the behavior on boths sides.
Does this then mean that you will stop frequenting ANY online D&D Messageboards. I can almost guarantee that you will get a similar subset of people on any Messageboard you wish to visit. As I and a couple of others have stated in our posts, we have been treated poorly on the WotC Boards and as a result no longer visit them. The 4e Threads aside, everyone here (actually including some of the people who post on those same 4e Threads) bend over backwards to offer any help they can.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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The other day I was at my local supermarket and I saw they were advertising that they would be selling emu meat soon. I've never tried it before but I'd heard a lot of good things about it. Well I was so excited about the prospect that I decided to talk to my fellow shoppers about it.
"I see they're going to be selling emu meat in the meat department soon," I said to this lady with the 'meat is murder' shirt at the checkout line ahead of me . . . well let me tell you I wasn't pleased with the response! I'm with you OP! I'm never going back to that store again!
Er, Guy? That horse (or emu) has been beat dead.
And where's your advertisement for your campaign journal? You NEVER post anything without referencing it.
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It was changed this morning, yes.Is it me or Paizo just change the 4E message board title?:
Talk about 4th Edition here. Politely. Personal attacks or insults directed at other members of the Paizo community, or other companies in the industry, will not be tolerated.
Even though I voiced my support of the spirit of free speech earlier... I honestly can't disagree with this change, while it pains me to no end that it has become necessary to do so. When people need to start throwing insults over minor disagreements it has gone beyond defending one's right to an opinion.
I am hereby quitting the 4e section of the boards until after the rulebooks are released, not that I was overly active in the first place.
I'm just hoping it can clear up some of the particularly nasty personal statements about some of the WotC game designers. I really don't mind criticisms of the 4e game rules themselves, and I understand, and share to a degree, anger over the cancellation of the magazines and the delay of the GSL.
It just really hits me in the gut, though, when bitter personal attacks are made on the character of the game designers. I don't want to repeat them here, so suffice it to say, these are game developers. They don't make a lot of money, and outside of a very small area, no one will ever know their name. They probably could have gone into other lines of work, but they chose this because they love it, and I think at heart, they want to make things that are fun for people to play.
If you don't like their rules, fine. I'm sure they would understand, and it's a big gaming world. But from time to time, I know WotC people come by, and it really hurts to think of them having to read, in fairly explicit terms, about what awful people some posters paint them as. They're people, you know? And while many think of them as killing their game, I'm sure the designers believe they are helping it.
If nothing else, just remember the great people at Paizo are friends with a lot of people at Wizards, and seeing this stuff makes them feel bad, too. It's fine to not like 4e. Just try to remember that the designers are just trying to live their lives and do the best with what they have to work with, like all the rest of us.
I'm just hoping it can clear up some of the particularly nasty personal statements about some of the WotC game designers.
I hear you. That really bothers me too.
Disparaging their PR efforts seems fair game to me, but people have really gone way past that.
I'm just hoping it can clear up some of the particularly nasty personal statements about some of the WotC game designers. I really don't mind criticisms of the 4e game rules themselves, and I understand, and share to a degree, anger over the cancellation of the magazines and the delay of the GSL.
It just really hits me in the gut, though, when bitter personal attacks are made on the character of the game designers. I don't want to repeat them here, so suffice it to say, these are game developers. They don't make a lot of money, and outside of a very small area, no one will ever know their name. They probably could have gone into other lines of work, but they chose this because they love it, and I think at heart, they want to make things that are fun for people to play.
If you don't like their rules, fine. I'm sure they would understand, and it's a big gaming world. But from time to time, I know WotC people come by, and it really hurts to think of them having to read, in fairly explicit terms, about what awful people some posters paint them as. They're people, you know? And while many think of them as killing their game, I'm sure the designers believe they are helping it.
If nothing else, just remember the great people at Paizo are friends with a lot of people at Wizards, and seeing this stuff makes them feel bad, too. It's fine to not like 4e. Just try to remember that the designers are just trying to live their lives and do the best with what they have to work with, like all the rest of us.
I agree with this. It just really isn't appropriate to attack the designers themselves. The game industry isn't THAT large a field. Odds are that a great many of them know each other (understatement) and it can't be comfortable for Paizo to see people they might consider friends be badmouthed on their own boards.
Regardless, I think the negativity has had a lot of air taken out of it. Just the fact that Paizo has decided that it's necessary to moderate this forum has probably made some people stop and think about how we've all been acting.
I'm just hoping it can clear up some of the particularly nasty personal statements about some of the WotC game designers.
I must be simple-minded, but ever since you changed to an owl avatar you really do seem wiser and I find myself giving a hoot and not polluting.
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I'm just hoping it can clear up some of the particularly nasty personal statements about some of the WotC game designers.I must be simple-minded, but ever since you changed to an owl avatar you really do seem wiser and I find myself giving a hoot and not polluting.
And don't forget, who better to answer that age old question: "How many licks does it take to get to the Tootsie Roll center of a Tootsie Pop?"
I encourage Paizo to continue their policy of being as hands-off as they feel is possible in their moderation of these boards.
The boards have always been moderated in a (ed) very loose sense of the word, to tell you the truth. I have seen three threads closed since I came here and have been warned by Gary twice, although I differ with him on whether or not I deserved it. But he was watching and he did say something and several times just shut the thread down. I think now it's just going to be done a little more vigorously.
As it did when Gary took action earlier, it seems that the situation demands it now. It doesn't really bother me because they aren't censoring anything that is really important to me, there is no reason for them to do so - I'm just here to buy stuff and play games after all. Frankly I am kind of relieved, suppressing people who spam obnoxious posts just doesn't bother me the way suppression of political speech does.
Paizo is still the same cool people. I hope people will learn from this to express themselves in a way that allows them to speak their mind without being dicks.
If you wish to be spoon fed mushroom fertilizer, feel free to frequent the stores and messageboards that have your choice flavor on tap.
If, however, you want an actual DISCUSSION complete with thrusts, parries, and the occasional riposte regarding the products advertised and sold - as well as upcoming products, welcome!
I've posted antogonizing messages. I've made many rabidly anti-4E statements. Some were foolish, some were spot on. Heck, I've actually found a couple of things I like in 4E.
Point is, cancelling a purchase from a good company because they use child labor is a noble thing. Doing it because they refuse to bring a fascist boot down on their message boards...well, what's the opposite of noble?
Your loss.
I must be simple-minded, but ever since you changed to an owl avatar you really do seem wiser and I find myself giving a hoot and not polluting.
Loooooook intoooooo the eyeeeeees! Now repeat after me: I want to agree with Trey... I want to agree with Trey... I want to agree with Trey....
No personal attacks against other members, companies, and messageboards.
Minor point: there's no such thing as a "personal attack" against a company or other messageboard; they're institutions, not persons, and hence legitimate targets for criticism or insult.
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But, regarding the 'negativity', it is unavoidable for one single reason. Paizo hasn't announced whether they are going to stick with 3rd edition, move to 4th edition, or do something else entirely.
No. Of course it's avoidable.
There should be no relationship between Paizo's announcements and your ability to be civil to each other.
Agree to disagree. Nicely.
Your arguement is just a deflection for being self-accountable.
Sheesh.
-Pete
I think I have. And encoraged others to do the same. Unfortunately, a few people on both sides of the debate are allowing their emotions to take over. It's hard to ignore apersonal attack, no matter who starts it. That said, since human nature isn't likely to change (my big beef with Utopian visions) we should all expect some as a matter of course, but discourage it to the best of our ability and TRY to avoid letting ourselves be baited. The problem is not that one side is guilty (or that both are) - it is that anyone can register and be welcome to this community. And since any microcosm of humanity that includes two or more people, some will be 'sinners' at least in the opinion of some. It's great for debate, and the negativity can be minimized, but it can't be eliminated. Personal attacks, however, can be.
I guess I should have made more of an effort to define the term negativity. I can't say 'I support 4th edition' (a positive statement) because it is untrue. I can say 'I support 3.5 and these are my reasons' (a positive statement), but the necessary rejoinder is 'these are my problems with your reasons' or even 'I accept those reasons, but this factor weighs more heavily in my personal decision'. Both of those are 'negative' because in some manner, they attack or diminish the relevance of my statement.
No personal attacks against other members, companies, and messageboards.Minor point: there's no such thing as a "personal attack" against a company or other messageboard; they're institutions, not persons, and hence legitimate targets for criticism or insult.
Yeah, I just quoted the rule at the top of the forum, which does include companies in the industry as things we're not to insult. :) I know what you mean, though.
No personal attacks against other members, companies, and messageboards.Minor point: there's no such thing as a "personal attack" against a company or other messageboard; they're institutions, not persons, and hence legitimate targets for criticism or insult.
It isn't the case for messageboards, I know, but aren't companies/institutions legally considered people?
Curiously yours,
:)
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I've held off posting here all day, but I feel the need to say a couple of things:
1- I'm not sure we will ever see the OP again. He was never a customer, and his post had a sense of cathartic finality. He had said what he meant to and moved on.
2- i find the concept of blaming a company for the actions of its customers puerile. Note I did not say that the OP was acting childishly, I stated that the concept of blaming a company for its customers seems childish and silly.
3- These boards have always been a friendly and welcoming place. Even when i've gotten engaged in heated exchanges with people, I've never held animosity towards them. Frustration? anger? Sure. But those feelings are fleeting. What the OP has done is looked at some actions not even attributable to Paizo and made a final decision. That seems like it may be an overreaction, and I feel bad that the OP will be missing such great material.
4- Finally, it disturbs me that a random post from a random person not a part of the Paizo community, and not a customer to boot, can have such a profound effect. Paizo's loose moderation strategy is one of the reasons I love this company. It would be a shame to throw the baby out with the bath water here, you know?
5- Finally to Mr. Frost, while I wholeheartedly agree that personal attacks on WotC designers should not be tolerated, expressions of opinion on the merit (or lack thereof) of their work is necessary for a meaningful discussion. As for criticisms leveled at a company, well, last time I checked companies don't have feelings. A criticism on design philosophy, or even a general statement that "nothing good has come out of Wotc since Monte left" shouldn't be considered too inflammatory. After all, if I was a fan of Wotc I'd be on their board. But I'm not, so I'm here.
I apologize for the rambling length of this post. I've had a fever of 102 for a couple of days, and concentration is still difficult. Hopefully, I was able to get my point across.
The 'Ling
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Has anyone really replied to any of your questions here in these boards with that answer?
No today i was only called fascist on page one of this thread. ;-)
I see that here a lot of nice people but there are a minority of idiots that make this subboatd suck. They are on both camps. This thread is not about pro or anit 4e ist about the behavior on boths sides.This the precise post you are referring too, I assume.
Paizo's big problem is that they don't censor their fans? They have the perverse lack of taste to allow people to voice both positive and negative opinions about a subject? Wow, then you definitely shouldn't buy any of their products- even if it's for a different game than the one discussed on the offending part of the board, and even if they didn't make any of the offending comments themselves. The nerve of them to give people the freedom to speak their mind. From what I hear, people aren't allowed to say mean things about 4th edition on ENworld and WotC's website, so maybe you'll be more comfortable with...I'm having a hard time thinking of a nice word for fascists. Oh well.
I do not see him calling you a "fascist."
I've posted antogonizing messages.
May I inquire seriously what the value is to you and others who enjoy that style of interaction to being antagonistic? How does it help you to advance the conversation?
Now, on the larger topic, the issue here underlying the need for moderation is growth. A tiny handful of troublemakers can set a bad leadership example and encourage many others to indulge in offensive behavior, whatever each individual online community defines as "offensive". (I have seen one where being polite could almost be considered offensive.) The method of moderation is important to good community relations. I personally don't care for editing posts. I personally prefer to see moderators approach people in private as opposed to public, except in such circumstances as today where a few public posts are needed to restore some order.
There are two separate questions on this topic. Freedom of speech and right to speak. Freedom of speech originated in the US with the ability to question the government. It is one of our most cherished rights, and it should be. Right to speak in a private setting like this is entirely different.
P.S. Even if Paizo goes the 4E route and I'll decide against it, I'll gladly buy their adventures, knowing well that if I adapt them to 3.5, I'll have a better game experience than with most adventures from their competitors.They are that good.
They are indeed good.
But I just don't have the time to adapt. Plus, the stat blocks and so on are a major reason why I buy modules. If I have to do that stuff by myself, I can as well make my own adventures.
So I won't buy any 4e modules, even if they're from Paizo.
That's incorrect and an overstatement of what's occurred today. Gary and I are shifting the tone of the 4E boards. We have not moderated anything outside of the 4E threads and shall continue to rely on self-moderation by our awesome community.
I must say that this is all that matters, because if the 4e boards are moderated, we can no longer speak freely about 4e.
I will see how it will play out - as long as we're still allowed to speak our mind, even (or rather especially if) that mind thinks that 4e sucks, and that this or that new piece of information sucks, it will probably be okay.
And, of course, it has to go both ways: If some 4e-fan oversteps the line, he must be punished just as hard or mildly as a 3.5e-fan that did the same.
The other two boards I used to visit no longer allow anything much to be said against 4e - if you say anything against it, the post will either be deleted at once, or at least searched with a fine-toothed comb to see whether something can be interpreted as an insult, and if they find something (they take 30 with those search checks), there is a ban without warning.
These boards here are about the only ones where you can say that you don't like 4e without fearing to be assaulted by other posters (well, not quite true, but it's a lot less severe than in other places) or discriminated by the moderators.
If that should change, I will cancel all orders and subscriptions. At once.
Don't get me wrong: I do think that namecalling should be curtailed. But please don't go and interpret everything as a personal attack against people.
We're moderating personal attacks, attacks against other companies in the hobby industry, and insults thrown at other messageboards. If you can't talk about 4E without the above, then this isn't your messageboard.
I don't think I can be much clearer than that.
Senior Software Developer
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Don't get me wrong: I do think that namecalling should be curtailed. But please don't go and interpret everything as a personal attack against people.
Don't worry too much about this. We don't care if someone says "this game is terrible" or "this game is awesome", as long as they provide some context other than insults, references to bodily fluids, rape, violence, nazis, etc.
I'd personally like this forum to be the best place anywhere in the world to discuss 4th edition. So does Josh. And I bet you (the collective "you", not just KaeYoss) want it to be that, too.
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Don't worry too much about this. We don't care if someone says "this game is terrible" or "this game is awesome", as long as they provide some context other than insults, references to bodily fluids, rape, violence, nazis, etc.
I'd personally like this forum to be the best place anywhere in the world to discuss 4th edition. So does Josh. And I bet you (the collective "you", not just KaeYoss) want it to be that, too.
Geez Gary, are you still at work?!? Go home man!. We don't want you to waste away in the office. We like you too much.
Gary never leaves.
True story: I left work last night and Gary was in the parking garage on one of his routine thinking strolls.
I got to work this morning and Gary was still in the parking garage!!!
Seriously, he never leaves.
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Chief Technical Officer
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expressions of opinion on the merit (or lack thereof) of their work is necessary for a meaningful discussion
To be clear, it's ok to say "I think this rule or that decision is bad," but saying "this company is crappy" is not ok. Companies aren't people, but they're made up of people, and you shouldn't say anything about a company that you wouldn't say about any employee of that company.
Gary never leaves.
True story: I left work last night and Gary was in the parking garage on one of his routine thinking strolls.
I got to work this morning and Gary was still in the parking garage!!!
Seriously, he never leaves.
It is a rare day indeed when Gary's car is not there both when I arrive and when I leave.
...too bad I'm completely off topic.
I personally think that the reason that the author of this thread sees so much negativity towards 4E here is simply because Paizo has the decency to allow the voice of personal opinion, even if it might be against some product, possibly even at times Paizo's own products... Paizo is a company that believes in the value of listening, and not just the marketing voice.
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To be clear, it's ok to say "I think this rule or that decision is bad," but saying "this company is crappy" is not ok. Companies aren't people, but they're made up of people, and you shouldn't say anything about a company that you wouldn't say about any employee of that company.
You're correct Vic. Perhaps we need to lay off the "WotC is evil" stuff. Although I've got to admit that sometimes they do seem to be 'screwing the direpooch' in the PR department.
Don't get me wrong: I do think that namecalling should be curtailed. But please don't go and interpret everything as a personal attack against people.Don't worry too much about this. We don't care if someone says "this game is terrible" or "this game is awesome", as long as they provide some context other than insults, references to bodily fluids, rape, violence, nazis, etc.
I'd personally like this forum to be the best place anywhere in the world to discuss 4th edition. So does Josh. And I bet you (the collective "you", not just KaeYoss) want it to be that, too.
I agree. If we can stay away from the extreme negativity from both sides (and I think it's mostly settled now, after the announcement/change to the forum) then this board most definitely has the potential to become the best place to discuss 4E. In part, that's because it will be one of the most HONEST forums out there on the subject. It also doesn't hurt to have some very smart posters and staff around.
There are 39 subforums on these messageboards. People come here and enjoy the friendly banter that only exists among RPG enthusiasts - and the nicest people on the internet. The 4E forums here, like EVERY OTHER forums where 4E discussions take place, are filled with impassioned people that care about their game and don't always know the diplomatic way to speak their minds or to allow someone else to have an opinion different than their's. And some of the posters there are just straight up A-Holes or Trolls.
Unlike other forums, Paizo has always fostered an atmosphere of freely expressing yourself, and only step in to either delete a post or give a warning when things turn really, really ugly.
Paizo is a small company who work their ass off to provide the highest quality products you can buy for the money. Their customer service is second to NONE, us writers are only a post or two away to help out when you need to know what the heck we were thinking when we wrote something or to provide some advice on handling posters' campaign specific dilemmas or to help make changes so our modules will work best for each individual GM. And where else does the CEO, the Editors, the Publisher, and the rest of the company staff regularly come to these boards to chat with their customers and potential customers?
Again, let me remind you that Paizo is a small, hardworking company. They simply don't have the time or staff to sit here and babysit these forums to make sure everyone is playing nice. That's what we the community are here to do and we've done so very well for a very long time.
If you found some ugly posts you didn't care for in the 4E forums, then simply don't go there. THERE ARE 38 OTHER SUBFORUMS FOR CHATTING WITH PEOPLE IN A MUCH FRIENDLIER ENVIRONMENT.
To hold Paizo responsible for what people come here and post and coming here to say that you won't be buying their products because of the same reason is something you really need to sit down and reconsider a second or third time because it's very, very unfair to them.
If you've only lately discovered these forums, and all you're interested in is seeing what people are talking about on the 4E forums, then you do so at your own risk and could do much worse in some other forums linked closer to Fourth Edition. But you've also missed years and years of the most pleasant, helpful, and courteous messageboards on the interweb. Take a look at the other forums (EVERY OTHER ONE), and you'll see some of what I'm talking about.
Sadly, this is the state of affairs everywhere right now. It will eventually mellow and the Trolls and A-Holes will find other boards to spew their vitriol. And the people that have been sucked into those hateful threads will find their way back to the pleasant ones.
Could this thread be moved to "website feedback"?
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Senior Software Developer
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Could this thread be moved to "website feedback"?
I think this is precisely the right place for this discussion at the moment for several reasons.
I'd really prefer the website feedback forum remain a place where people can report bugs in the operation of the website itself.