I saw the Rogue preview on the D&D Website.
Overall, I'm not impressed by what I'm seeing. My brain literally became very mushy after reading that. I believe I may have became dumber by reading that, in fact.
It was so simplistic and primitive, I really don't know what you plan to get out of 4th Edition. The Rogue never looked so unappealing to me.
Also, at will, encounter, and daily powers? I thought the game was supposed to make it easier to keep track of? At least 3rd Edition Rogue had consistent, "always on" abilities or abilities that kicked in during specific situations.
Powers? Again, D&D is turning into Marvel Universe, it seems. I guess you need powers to combat Super Saiyan Dryads and homicidal angels, of course. Makes sense.
The entire preview reeked of...World of Warcraft to me. It literally looked like something I would read up on when I install a new MMORPG on my computer and was ready to make a character and just hack&slash away.
Not impressed at all. In fact, I'm even more hateful towards 4E (if I could actually be anymore hateful) than before.
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I saw the Rogue preview on the D&D Website.
Overall, I'm not impressed by what I'm seeing. My brain literally became very mushy after reading that. I believe I may have became dumber by reading that, in fact.
It was so simplistic and primitive, I really don't know what you plan to get out of 4th Edition. The Rogue never looked so unappealing to me.
Also, at will, encounter, and daily powers? I thought the game was supposed to make it easier to keep track of? At least 3rd Edition Rogue had consistent, "always on" abilities or abilities that kicked in during specific situations.
Powers? Again, D&D is turning into Marvel Universe, it seems. I guess you need powers to combat Super Saiyan Dryads and homicidal angels, of course. Makes sense.
The entire preview reeked of...World of Warcraft to me. It literally looked like something I would read up on when I install a new MMORPG on my computer and was ready to make a character and just hack&slash away.
Not impressed at all. In fact, I'm even more hateful towards 4E (if I could actually be anymore hateful) than before.
A link would be helpful....
A link would be helpful....
This might work... It requires DDI privileges, so I can't tell.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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This might work... It requires DDI privileges, so I can't tell.A link would be helpful....
"An error occurred on the server when processing the URL. Please contact the system administrator." ... Don't all rush in there at once!
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I will need to read it over again but I like some of what I see there. We have heard that 4E will be about options and the rogue has them. I did not see anything there that was any "dumber" than a 3.5 class write up.
Of course having the rules will help to understand the context of some of the write up.
I really do not like the 4th edition base mechanic.
This is how many hit points you get.
This is how many hit points you get per level.
Is there ANY hope of randomness in this !@#$!ing system?
You know, I LIKE rolling dice for hit points. I think that's FINE. If they take that out, I'm done!
And that's not a rogue specific complaint.
I really do not like the 4th edition base mechanic.
This is how many hit points you get.
This is how many hit points you get per level.
Is there ANY hope of randomness in this !@#$!ing system?
You know, I LIKE rolling dice for hit points. I think that's FINE. If they take that out, I'm done!
And that's not a rogue specific complaint.
It is not exactly a new thing that just popped up. The 3.5 had a static hp gained each level as a variant. If you really want to roll hit points I'm sure you can put it back in easily.
This is how many hit points you get.
This is how many hit points you get per level.
That's exactly how it works in 3.5. At least, that's one recommended method.
I'm sure there will be a 'variant' to randomly determine hit points if you are so inclined. For those who do use the x hit points per level, it's nice to have it presented in the PHB class rather than hidden in the DMG.
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It appears to be, design-wise, a sleeker and easier to run version of the class (which could be also indicative of the treatment given to the other ones). Fixed number of HP, less hassle with equipment options and with modifiers for attack and defence, some templated build up trees.
The Healing Surge suggests a mechanic akin to the one seen in the Book of Experimental Might by Monte Cook - again, no big surprise - and seems to be somehow more balanced than the "heal for free" stuff that has been implied by previews so far (another detrimental element fo them: try to trick and bluff your market to say afterwards "you were wrong, this is actually good", and see the reaction).
Oh, I find these same design decisions abhorrent. The core 3.X thief appears to be ten or twenty times more capable and rich of possibilities than the 4E one, even with only the PHB at hand, both skill wise, feat wise and equipment wise.
Don't even get me started on the Role paragraph, which is almost offensive. Or the shift mechanic (same as the new mini rules) which implies movement by grid squares and not real measurements, something that in a RPG can only be defined as dumb.
Can't really say how much smoother the game will be, many of the listed powers have a lot of modifiers and conditions and whatnots that can be a mess to manage in-game, right as much or even more than with the actual rules.
To sum up, 4E appears to be a very simplified core ruleset, flavored with a variety of options. A game very, very different from anything D&D seen so far, the old red box included.
Something more similar to a d100 Basic game on steroids.
Happy fun and good times to each and everyone who like it, but to me is just one more reason to stay with my serious, and complex D&D for grown ups.
Quick Comments:
Weapon Proficiencies: Ouch. Ouch very much. I enjoy options, and limiting to 5 weapon choices(3 of which are ranged) does not suit me.
Fixed HP: Like it to start, dislike to continue.
Healing Surges: Elegantly done, assuming the healing surge mechanics look good. This may make up for fixed hit points, as Con may have a bigger effect here than just adding more hit points. Keeps them fragile for the fight, but durable for the long haul.
Skills: I see no mention of intelligence, so it looks like that's being taken out of the class side of things. I hope that intelligence still has an effect, such as adding more skill options/trained skills, but it's just neatly tucked in the ability score description. Otherwise, this may be getting a houserule quick, fast, and in a hurry.
Build Guides: Like, with reservations. As long as they stay close to starting packages, I'll be okay with them.
Weapon Talents: Incentive for using certain weapons. Nice. Only incentive for two of the five options. Not so nice. Incentive for the two specific weapons, as they're cool but generally underpowered in games: Nice. Final verdict: Meh.
Sneak Attack: Once per round seems to kill the old two weapon rogue trick. Also takes out the idea of the quick rogue who takes advantage of every misstep. Powers might change this, but I'm again at meh for this. I will say the three step increase bugs me. I'd probably end up splitting up the dice progression to a bump every five levels instead of every ten.
Powers: No mention of how many you get, so I'm assuming that's in some omitted table. Depending on how many you get, these could either be nice options or needed fixes. For example, one power lets you move up to ten feet before you strike. The next lets you attack Reflex instead of AC. Everything else is the same. While they're both useful, it doesn't seem like it's going to increase options much, they're just going to become normal tactics. Enemy with high AC? Use this one power every round. Lots of enemies spread apart? Use the other one. Lots of enemies spread apart but you don't have that power? Sucks to be you. This one depends less on the specific rogue abilities, and more how the powers system itself works.
I do think that if they end up giving enough to be truly combat options rather than tactics as normal, there's going to be a lot more bookkeeping on the part of the players, which may be counter to the design goal. I'm helping teach a 14 year old girl how to play the game. She wanted a rogue, and she went a whole session without sneak attacking anything. She had a blast, because she only needed to understand the basic basics. Her dad started learning the same day with a barbarian. He had a blast, because he only needed to know the basic basics. Powers may seem simple and intuitive to the designers, but it may be adding a level of complexity that turns off new gamers.
Final Verdict: A resounding meh. I wasn't really blown away by anything. Most of my reaction was a cautious "That could be nice as long as they account for..." Not saying they haven't or won't, just saying I haven't seen it. If 4th turns out to be more of this, I'll probably have a hard time convincing my group to switch, and end up going with my original plan of taking the good bits and houseruling them into 3.5.
EDIT: And Razz, I don't really appreciate the World of Warcraft comparison. I've seen it getting thrown around a lot, and really...there's not a lot of similarity. The optimistic side of me is thinking they just cut roleplay stuff out of the combat restrictions, but the weapon proficiencies run counter to that. The realistic side of me says that roleplay doesn't need a lot of rules to it. Trying to run combat seems to. So, it makes sense that rules are made for combat and the roleplay is up to...well, the roleplayer.
Can someone copy and past the write up, I am interested in reading it.
Ask and ye shall receive. Formatting may be screwy, but I'm new at this.
"You look surprised to see me. If you’d been paying attention, you might still be alive."
CLASS TRAITS
Role: Striker. You dart in to attack, do massive damage, and then retreat to safety. You do best when teamed with a defender to flank enemies.
Power Source: Martial. Your talents depend on extensive training and constant practice, innate skill, and natural coordination.
Key Abilities: Dexterity, Strength, Charisma
Armor Training: Leather
Weapon Proficiencies: Dagger, hand crossbow, shuriken, sling, short sword
Bonus to Defense: +2 Reflex
Hit Points at 1st Level: 12 + Constitution score
Hit Points per Level Gained: 5
Healing Surges: 6 + Constitution modifier
Trained Skills: Stealth and Thievery plus four others. From the class skills list below, choose four more trained skills at 1st level.
Class Skills: Acrobatics (Dexterity), Athletics (Str), Bluff (Cha), Dungeoneering (Wis), Insight (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Perception (Wis), Stealth (Dexterity), Streetwise (Cha), Thievery (Dexterity)
Build Options: Brawny rogue, trickster rogue
Class Features: First Strike, Rogue Tactics, Rogue Weapon Talent, Sneak Attack
Rogues are cunning and elusive adversaries. Rogues slip into and out of shadows on a whim, pass anywhere across the field of battle without fear of reprisal, and appear suddenly only to drive home a lethal blade.
As a rogue, you might face others’ preconceptions regarding your motivations, but your nature is your own to mold. You could be an agent fresh from the deposed king’s shattered intelligence network, an accused criminal on the lam seeking to clear your name, a wiry performer whose goals transcend the theatrical stage, a kid trying to turn around your hard-luck story, or a daredevil thrill-seeker who can’t get enough of the adrenaline rush of conflict. Or perhaps you are merely in it for the gold, after all.
With a blade up your sleeve and a concealing cloak across your shoulders, you stride forth, eyes alight with anticipation. What worldly wonders and rewards are yours for the taking?
ROGUE OVERVIEW
Characteristics: Combat advantage provides the full benefit of your powers, and a combination of skills and powers helps you gain and keep that advantage over your foes. You are a master of skills, from Stealth and Thievery to Bluff and Acrobatics.
Religion: Rogues prefer deities of the night, luck, freedom, and adventure, such as Sehanine and Avandra. Evil and chaotic evil rogues often favor Lolth or Zehir.
Races: Those with a love for secrets exchanged in shadows and change for its own sake make ideal rogues, including elves, tieflings, and halflings.
Creating a Rogue
The trickster rogue and the brawny rogue are the two rogue builds, one relying on bluffs and feints, the other on brute strength. Dexterity, Charisma, and Strength are the rogue’s most important ability scores.
Brawny Rogue
You like powers that deal plenty of damage, aided by your Strength, and also stun, immobilize, knock down, or push your foes. Your attacks use Dexterity, so keep that your highest ability score. Strength should be a close second—it increases your damage directly, and it can determine other effects of your attacks. Charisma is a good third ability score, particularly if you want to dabble in powers from the other rogue build. Select the brutal scoundrel rogue tactic, and look for powers that pack a lot of damage into every punch.
Suggested Feat: Weapon Focus (Human feat: Toughness)
Suggested Skills: Athletics, Dungeoneering, Intimidate, Stealth, Streetwise, Thievery
Suggested At-Will Powers: Piercing Strike, Riposte Strike
Suggested Encounter Power: Torturous Strike
Suggested Daily Power: Easy Target
Trickster Rogue
You like powers that deceive and misdirect your foes. You dart in and out of the fray in combat, dodging your enemies’ attacks or redirecting them to other foes. Most of your attack powers rely on Dexterity, so that should be your best ability score. Charisma is important for a few attacks, for Charisma-based skills you sometimes use in place of attacks, and for other effects that depend on successful attacks, so make Charisma your second-best score. Strength is useful if you want to choose powers intended for the other rogue build. Select the artful dodger rogue tactic. Look for powers that take advantage of your high Charisma score, as well as those that add to your trickster nature.
Suggested Feat: Backstabber (Human feat: Human Perseverance)
Suggested Skills: Acrobatics, Bluff, Insight, Perception, Stealth, Thievery
Suggested At-Will Powers: Deft Strike, Sly Flourish
Suggested Encounter Power: Positioning Strike
Suggested Daily Power: Trick Strike
Rogue Class Features
All rogues share these class features.
First Strike
At the start of an encounter, you have combat advantage against any creatures that have not yet acted in that encounter.
Rogue Tactics
Rogues operate in a variety of ways. Some rogues use their natural charm and cunning trickery to deceive foes. Others rely on brute strength to overcome their enemies.
Choose one of the following options.
Artful Dodger: You gain a bonus to AC equal to your Charisma modifier against opportunity attacks.
Brutal Scoundrel: You gain a bonus to Sneak Attack damage equal to your Strength modifier.
The choice you make also provides bonuses to certain rogue powers. Individual powers detail the effects (if any) your Rogue Tactics selection has on them.
Rogue Weapon Talent
When you wield a shuriken, your weapon damage die increases by one size. When you wield a dagger, you gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls.
Sneak Attack
Once per round, when you have combat advantage against an enemy and are using a light blade, a crossbow, or a sling, your attacks against that enemy deal extra damage. As you advance in level, your extra damage increases.
Level Sneak Attack Damage
1st–10th +2d6
11th–20th +3d6
21st–30th +5d6
Rogue Powers
Your powers are daring exploits that draw on your personal cunning, agility, and expertise. Some powers reward a high Charisma and are well suited for the trickster rogue, and others reward a high Strength and appeal to the brawny rogue, but you are free to choose any power you like.
Deft Strike
Rogue Attack 1
A final lunge brings you into an advantageous position.
At-Will ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action
Melee or Ranged weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a crossbow, a light blade, or a sling.
Target: One creature
Special: You can move 2 squares before the attack.
Attack: Dexterity vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage.
Increase damage to 2[W] + Dexterity modifier at 21st level.
Piercing Strike
Rogue Attack 1
A needle-sharp point slips past armor and into tender flesh.
At-Will ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action
Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade.
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. Reflex
Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage.
Increase damage to 2[W] + Dexterity modifier at 21st level.
Positioning Strike
Rogue Attack 1
A false stumble and a shove place the enemy exactly where you want him.
Encounter ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action
Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade.
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. Will
Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage, and you slide the target 1 square.
Artful Dodger: You slide the target a number of squares equal to your Charisma modifier.
Torturous Strike
Rogue Attack 1
If you twist the blade in the wound just so, you can make your enemy howl in pain.
Encounter ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action
Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade.
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. AC
Hit: 2[W] + Dexterity modifier damage.
Brutal Scoundrel: You gain a bonus to the damage roll equal to your Strength modifier.
Tumble
Rogue Utility 2
You tumble out of harm’s way, dodging the opportunistic attacks of your enemies.
Encounter ✦ Martial
Move Action
Personal
Prerequisite: You must be trained in Acrobatics.
Effect: You can shift a number of squares equal to one-half your speed.
Crimson Edge
Rogue Attack 9
You deal your enemy a vicious wound that continues to bleed, and like a shark, you circle in for the kill.
Daily ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action
Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade.
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. Fortitude
Hit: 2[W] + Dexterity modifier damage, and the target takes ongoing damage equal to 5 + your Strength modifier and grants combat advantage to you (save ends both).
Miss: Half damage, and no ongoing damage.
I still cannot see the article. Won't load. :(
another detrimental element fo them: try to trick and bluff your market to say afterwards "you were wrong, this is actually good", and see the reaction).
I think the people in the market are tricking themselves and are just surprised that their assumptions are incorrect.
Happy fun and good times to each and everyone who like it, but to me is just one more reason to stay with my serious D&D for grown ups.
And I move to the awesome D&D for people that like fun. :P
Here's what I posted to my group:
Pretty much a d20 rogue variant. Sneak attack. And options for a Swashbuckler type and a Ninja type, sort of. Certain powers that let you use dexterity or charisma for attacking, and others for moving around the battlefield.
No word on trapfinding. From what I've seen so far, rogues are no longer the "go up in front and lead us into the dungeon" archetypes anymore. Anyone can search for 'traps'. Some traps are magical, which is easier for people with arcane knowledge to disarm, others are Nature based, some are Dungeoneering, etc. I really think that adds a level of verisimilitude as well as greater variety in party composition. I think will decrease the gamist "we need a rogue to disarm traps" mentality. Play a rogue because you want to roleplay the ninja, swashbuckler, court jester or generally shady character.
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Can someone copy and past the write up, I am interested in reading it.Ask and ye shall receive. Formatting may be screwy, but I'm new at this.
Spoiler:Rogue"You look surprised to see me. If you’d been paying attention, you might still be alive."
CLASS TRAITS
Role: Striker. You dart in to attack, do massive damage, and then retreat to safety. You do best when teamed with a defender to flank enemies.
Power Source: Martial. Your talents depend on extensive training and constant practice, innate skill, and natural coordination.
Key Abilities: Dexterity, Strength, CharismaArmor Training: Leather
Weapon Proficiencies: Dagger, hand crossbow, shuriken, sling, short sword
Bonus to Defense: +2 ReflexHit Points at 1st Level: 12 + Constitution score
Hit Points per Level Gained: 5
Healing Surges: 6 + Constitution modifierTrained Skills: Stealth and Thievery plus four others. From the class skills list below, choose four more trained skills at 1st level.
Class Skills: Acrobatics (Dexterity), Athletics (Str), Bluff (Cha), Dungeoneering (Wis), Insight (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Perception (Wis), Stealth (Dexterity), Streetwise (Cha), Thievery (Dexterity)Build Options: Brawny rogue, trickster rogue
Class Features: First Strike, Rogue Tactics, Rogue Weapon Talent, Sneak AttackRogues are cunning and elusive adversaries. Rogues slip into and out of shadows on a whim, pass anywhere across the field of battle without fear of reprisal, and appear suddenly only to drive home a lethal blade.
As a rogue, you might face others’ preconceptions regarding your motivations, but your nature is your own to mold. You could be an agent fresh from the deposed king’s shattered intelligence network, an accused criminal on the lam seeking to clear your name, a wiry performer whose goals transcend the theatrical stage, a kid trying to turn around your hard-luck story, or a daredevil thrill-seeker who can’t get enough of the...
Thanks.
I don't know I think I like the new look. I will have to see what else is there when the PHB comes out but I am hopeful.
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another detrimental element fo them: try to trick and bluff your market to say afterwards "you were wrong, this is actually good", and see the reaction).I think the people in the market are tricking themselves and are just surprised that their assumptions are incorrect.
So, you know what I really think.
Mmmmhhhh.Happy fun and good times to each and everyone who like it, but to me is just one more reason to stay with my serious D&D for grown ups.And I move to the awesome D&D for people that like fun. :P
Which implies that I am a person who does not like fun, or at least that my games are not fun. Or both of them.
Mmmmhhhh.
If this is an excerpt, its mildly interesting. If the class really is this narrow, its bad news.
Class base systems are supposed to be narrow though. Compared the older d20 rogue this one definately has a lot more options. It's also only core, so they may increase the number of options by adding new builds and maneuvers in the future.
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Hmmm, I like that the dagger appears to be getting some love. I’m sad to see that the rapier appears to not be supported as a Rogue weapon however. Still, that is the worst complaint I have at this time.
As much as this information exists in a vacuum for me, meaning that I can’t compare it to other classes in the new rules, I must say that this is the first bit of information that I have read which I like.
If this is an excerpt, its mildly interesting. If the class really is this narrow, its bad news.Class base systems are supposed to be narrow though. Compared the older d20 rogue this one definately has a lot more options. It's also only core, so they may increase the number of options by adding new builds and maneuvers in the future.
An excerpt from a conversation I'm in:
Anyway, the main thing that bothers me with the rogue is the lack of weapon choice. It looks neat to play the first time...but the second? Third? It seems artificially limited. Dagger, hand crossbow, shuriken, sling, short sword. I can't see myself using a shuriken with a character, so to me that cuts it down to four weapon choices. Part of what I enjoyed about 3rd was a relative ease of switching a few options to make a different character. A rogue with two daggers felt different than a rogue with a mace, who felt different from a rogue with a spear
This is where I get nervous, because generally stricter core rules mean less options, which means more room for splat books. Say hello to five pages on rogues in Martial Power that should have been in the PHB style added material.
It depends on the number and range of powers, as well as how much wasn't in this article. It could very well be a small glance at a big fish. As written, though, it pushes me towards a narrower class, which suggests that classes themselves will be narrower. Narrower classes mean more classes to cover each niche. More classes means more expanded material. More expanded material means more money invested.
It's a problem at looking at the system through 3rd edition terms. It looks like there are more things to do...but the powers, especially the at-will ones, could turn into the new "I attack". Yeah, there's a fancier name. If it's the only thing that makes sense to do, it's not more fun, it's the same fun with a fancier name.
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I’m sad to see that the rapier appears to not be supported as a Rogue weapon however.Rapier might be classified as a "light blade", which is listed as a requirement for several Rogue powers.
Possible, which would mean that a weapon prof feat would allow a Rogue to use one. This would make sense. I never did like the way everyone could use nearly every weapon in 3.5. But, that is more of a Fighter related issue. Thanks for the thought though. This is quite interesting.
This raises a lot more questions than it answers, but overall it looks promising.
And I really don't appreciate World of Warcraft comparisons being thrown about willy-nilly, especially by people who apparently know nothing about World of Warcraft. "It's like World of Warcraft" seems to be used by people in an attempt to impart that it's dumbed-down or overly simplistic. These are people who apparently know nothing about World of Warcraft, which is in fact staggeringly complex. For example, take a look at the real rogue talent tree in WoW.
Happy fun and good times to each and everyone who like it, but to me is just one more reason to stay with my serious D&D for grown ups.And I move to the awesome D&D for people that like fun. :PWhich implies that I am a person who does not like fun, or at least that my games are not fun. Or both of them.
Mmmmhhhh.
Wait...didn't you already imply people who don't agree with you aren't grown-ups? In fact, I got the sense the response was an allusion to your implication, hence the ":P"
Or perhaps this is subtle sarcasm and I just don't get it?
Bear in mind I can't see the article at all...looks like some people can, some can't. (crappy DNS as an attempt to load balance perhaps? Bad WOTC!)
EDIT: Flushing DNS cache didn't help, perhaps cached upstream by ISP DNS server? I'm no DNS expert...anyone have any other suggestions?
Quick Comments:
Weapon Proficiencies: Ouch. Ouch very much. I enjoy options, and limiting to 5 weapon choices(3 of which are ranged) does not suit me...
Agreed. This is just oh-so-lame.
Fixed HP: Like it to start, dislike to continue.
I like this one the whole way. I *hated* the power disparity that could be caused by simple bad luck in previous editions.
Healing Surges: Elegantly done, assuming the healing surge mechanics look good. This may make up for fixed hit points, as Con may have a bigger effect here than just adding more hit points. Keeps them fragile for the fight, but durable for the long haul.
Hard to say more without knowing about "healing surge," but agree.
Skills: I see no mention of intelligence, so it looks like that's being taken out of the class side of things. I hope that intelligence still has an effect, such as adding more skill options/trained skills, but it's just neatly tucked in the ability score description. Otherwise, this may be getting a houserule quick, fast, and in a hurry.
So you'd change that quickly then? ;-)
Build Guides: Like, with reservations. As long as they stay close to starting packages, I'll be okay with them.
Yeah, I'd ignore these, but I don't mind their presence as long as they aren't the only choice.
Weapon Talents: Incentive for using certain weapons. Nice. Only incentive for two of the five options. Not so nice. Incentive for the two specific weapons, as they're cool but generally underpowered in games: Nice. Final verdict: Meh.
Also in the "Meh" camp.
Sneak Attack: Once per round seems to kill the old two weapon rogue trick. Also takes out the idea of the quick rogue who takes advantage of every misstep. Powers might change this, but I'm again at meh for this. I will say the three step increase bugs me. I'd probably end up splitting up the dice progression to a bump every five levels instead of every ten.
I'm fine with the increases being tied to the tiers, but why 2D6->3D6->5D6? Symmerty whenever possible is cleaner and far easier to remember.
Powers: No mention of how many you get, so I'm assuming that's in some omitted table. Depending on how many you get, these could either be nice options or needed fixes. For example, one power lets you move up to ten feet before you strike. The next lets you attack Reflex instead of AC. Everything else is the same. While they're both useful, it doesn't seem like it's going to increase options much, they're just going to become normal tactics. Enemy with high AC? Use this one power every round. Lots of enemies spread...
This concerns me because I can easily see them "leaving holes" in the power selection and reducing the completeness of the core books as a stand-alone game. Concerned.
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Have to say this is really Meh to me. As many have said it could be that they aren't showing all the options but if they are it seems somewhat Underwhelming to me. Not a fan of set number of hp or proficiency with only 5 weapons and the like.
Also it seems that characters will have a lot and i mean a lot more hp especially at higher lvls. in the current system on average and not including con a rogue should have about 60hp at 20th lvl whereas a 4th ed rogue at 30 will have 150 which is over double the current rogues (remembering that they said a 30th lvl character is roughly the equivalent of a 20th lvl one now) Combine with doing generally less damage and i see high lvl combats becoming really slow slugfests.
I could be wrong about all this but that's the impression I'm getting.
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Wait...didn't you already imply people who don't agree with you aren't grown-ups? In fact, I got the sense the response was an allusion to your implication, hence the ":P"
Or perhaps this is subtle sarcasm and I just don't get it?
Nope. I don't imply anything on others opinions or assumptions.
I have not enough hubris to think that I'm smart enough to know what's right or that anyone has to agree with me.I did imply that the new ruleset is geared towards a younger market, or towards a market that mantains themes less related to what commonly appeals to more adult audiences.
Which I'm not stating that is wrong per se, or that is less fun or else. Just that is not the one I'm in.
well i dont like the fixed hp at all. and i hate the x3 hp at 1st level thing .. Weapon Proficiencies f*%k ,...i'll have to show this to my rogue player but it wont be pretty i can tell u that. it seems to me to have less options then 3.5 and that is a bad thing i think. this rogue to me seems a combat only thug .
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Wow!
I was thinking 4e would not be too bad, but unless the missing rules fill in a lot the rouge seems to have fewer choices and the system more complicated (use dex fotr this attack but cha for this).
I will check out 4E but it better be impressive or I (and hopefully) Paizo will stay with 3.5 and just make subtle changes.
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One gripe:
Narrowness. This is far more narrow than I had hoped. For all of the amazing class options wizards keeps mentioning, this is a large letdown. Only plus: It will be far easier for my little brother to use. I'm not actually sure if that in fact is a plus, though. It is too bad. 4e could and should be fantastic, and it does look easier to play, but wizards seems intent on making it simpler instead of solely easier, which is a shame. I hope Paizo does not convert simply because it would drastically reduce their options when it comes to making characters for adventures.
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I'd like to start positive: I'm really really happy Wizards finally released something like this (and the elf). It's what I was looking for, because it does help.
That being said, there's not much special here. As stated before, most of this stuff was already in the game, such as the option for static HP. I do agree, as posted, the class doesn't seem to change all that much, and that does worry me a tad. Granted, there still is a mix of feats and the use of the skills that we, the uninformed, cannot see.
So, as for myself, I'm still in the "just buying the 4.0 PH and sticking to 3.5 because I like it a lot more and don't think badly of anyone who likes 4.0" camp. But I do appreciate that Wizards did show us something in the way of a preview. Here's hoping they continue this kind of logic.
So I am uncertain how to feel about the fixed weapon selection. It reminds me of the older 2nd edition style. I wonder if we'll be seeing the return of Weapon Proficiencies as you level up? Failing this, does anyone think the Class Training feats will incorporate gaining access to that classes weapon selection?
Also of note, while the Starting Hit Points list that you gain Constitution Modifier to them, the Hit Points per Level do not.
The Rogue Tactics section is definitely a parallel to what we've heard about with the Fighter class, where they select either Weapon and Shield or Two-Handed Weapon as a focus. I think we'll be seeing something similar for all of the classes. Wizards as I recall get to select an Implement (Rod, Orb and Something Else, I think?)
It would appear that at 1st Level you get to select Two At-Will powers, an Encounter power and a Daily power, but I am hoping that proves to just be the suggested option, and you can instead do as you wish.
One gripe I have is that it mentions all Rogues gain Stealth and Thievery as trained skills, yet Stealth and Thievery are both on the list of skills Rogues can have trained. This seems strange, after all, they've already got them? Perhaps this will also be a mechanic explained latter, related to Multi-classing? I'm also fairly certain Intelligence still adds to your Skills, as it did in Star Wars: Saga Edition.
Bear in mind I can't see the article at all...looks like some people can, some can't. (crappy DNS as an attempt to load balance perhaps? Bad WOTC!)
EDIT: Flushing DNS cache didn't help, perhaps cached upstream by ISP DNS server? I'm no DNS expert...anyone have any other suggestions?
I'll repost what JasonKain did, in case current or new readers missed it:
"You look surprised to see me. If you’d been paying attention, you might still be alive."
CLASS TRAITS
Role: Striker. You dart in to attack, do massive damage, and then retreat to safety. You do best when teamed with a defender to flank enemies.
Power Source: Martial. Your talents depend on extensive training and constant practice, innate skill, and natural coordination.
Key Abilities: Dexterity, Strength, Charisma
Armor Training: Leather
Weapon Proficiencies: Dagger, hand crossbow, shuriken, sling, short sword
Bonus to Defense: +2 Reflex
Hit Points at 1st Level: 12 + Constitution score
Hit Points per Level Gained: 5
Healing Surges: 6 + Constitution modifier
Trained Skills: Stealth and Thievery plus four others. From the class skills list below, choose four more trained skills at 1st level.
Class Skills: Acrobatics (Dexterity), Athletics (Str), Bluff (Cha), Dungeoneering (Wis), Insight (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Perception (Wis), Stealth (Dexterity), Streetwise (Cha), Thievery (Dexterity)
Build Options: Brawny rogue, trickster rogue
Class Features: First Strike, Rogue Tactics, Rogue Weapon Talent, Sneak Attack
Rogues are cunning and elusive adversaries. Rogues slip into and out of shadows on a whim, pass anywhere across the field of battle without fear of reprisal, and appear suddenly only to drive home a lethal blade.
As a rogue, you might face others’ preconceptions regarding your motivations, but your nature is your own to mold. You could be an agent fresh from the deposed king’s shattered intelligence network, an accused criminal on the lam seeking to clear your name, a wiry performer whose goals transcend the theatrical stage, a kid trying to turn around your hard-luck story, or a daredevil thrill-seeker who can’t get enough of the adrenaline rush of conflict. Or perhaps you are merely in it for the gold, after all.
With a blade up your sleeve and a concealing cloak across your shoulders, you stride forth, eyes alight with anticipation. What worldly wonders and rewards are yours for the taking?
ROGUE OVERVIEW
Characteristics: Combat advantage provides the full benefit of your powers, and a combination of skills and powers helps you gain and keep that advantage over your foes. You are a master of skills, from Stealth and Thievery to Bluff and Acrobatics.
Religion: Rogues prefer deities of the night, luck, freedom, and adventure, such as Sehanine and Avandra. Evil and chaotic evil rogues often favor Lolth or Zehir.
Races: Those with a love for secrets exchanged in shadows and change for its own sake make ideal rogues, including elves, tieflings, and halflings.
Creating a Rogue
The trickster rogue and the brawny rogue are the two rogue builds, one relying on bluffs and feints, the other on brute strength. Dexterity, Charisma, and Strength are the rogue’s most important ability scores.
Brawny Rogue
You like powers that deal plenty of damage, aided by your Strength, and also stun, immobilize, knock down, or push your foes. Your attacks use Dexterity, so keep that your highest ability score. Strength should be a close second—it increases your damage directly, and it can determine other effects of your attacks. Charisma is a good third ability score, particularly if you want to dabble in powers from the other rogue build. Select the brutal scoundrel rogue tactic, and look for powers that pack a lot of damage into every punch.
Suggested Feat: Weapon Focus (Human feat: Toughness)
Suggested Skills: Athletics, Dungeoneering, Intimidate, Stealth, Streetwise, Thievery
Suggested At-Will Powers: Piercing Strike, Riposte Strike
Suggested Encounter Power: Torturous Strike
Suggested Daily Power: Easy Target
Trickster Rogue
You like powers that deceive and misdirect your foes. You dart in and out of the fray in combat, dodging your enemies’ attacks or redirecting them to other foes. Most of your attack powers rely on Dexterity, so that should be your best ability score. Charisma is important for a few attacks, for Charisma-based skills you sometimes use in place of attacks, and for other effects that depend on successful attacks, so make Charisma your second-best score. Strength is useful if you want to choose powers intended for the other rogue build. Select the artful dodger rogue tactic. Look for powers that take advantage of your high Charisma score, as well as those that add to your trickster nature.
Suggested Feat: Backstabber (Human feat: Human Perseverance)
Suggested Skills: Acrobatics, Bluff, Insight, Perception, Stealth, Thievery
Suggested At-Will Powers: Deft Strike, Sly Flourish
Suggested Encounter Power: Positioning Strike
Suggested Daily Power: Trick Strike
Rogue Class Features
All rogues share these class features.
First Strike
At the start of an encounter, you have combat advantage against any creatures that have not yet acted in that encounter.
Rogue Tactics
Rogues operate in a variety of ways. Some rogues use their natural charm and cunning trickery to deceive foes. Others rely on brute strength to overcome their enemies.
Choose one of the following options.
Artful Dodger: You gain a bonus to AC equal to your Charisma modifier against opportunity attacks.
Brutal Scoundrel: You gain a bonus to Sneak Attack damage equal to your Strength modifier.
The choice you make also provides bonuses to certain rogue powers. Individual powers detail the effects (if any) your Rogue Tactics selection has on them.
Rogue Weapon Talent
When you wield a shuriken, your weapon damage die increases by one size. When you wield a dagger, you gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls.
Sneak Attack
Once per round, when you have combat advantage against an enemy and are using a light blade, a crossbow, or a sling, your attacks against that enemy deal extra damage. As you advance in level, your extra damage increases.
Level Sneak Attack Damage
1st–10th +2d6
11th–20th +3d6
21st–30th +5d6
Rogue Powers
Your powers are daring exploits that draw on your personal cunning, agility, and expertise. Some powers reward a high Charisma and are well suited for the trickster rogue, and others reward a high Strength and appeal to the brawny rogue, but you are free to choose any power you like.
Deft Strike
Rogue Attack 1
A final lunge brings you into an advantageous position.
At-Will ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action
Melee or Ranged weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a crossbow, a light blade, or a sling.
Target: One creature
Special: You can move 2 squares before the attack.
Attack: Dexterity vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage.
Increase damage to 2[W] + Dexterity modifier at 21st level.
Piercing Strike
Rogue Attack 1
A needle-sharp point slips past armor and into tender flesh.
At-Will ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action
Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade.
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. Reflex
Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage.
Increase damage to 2[W] + Dexterity modifier at 21st level.
Positioning Strike
Rogue Attack 1
A false stumble and a shove place the enemy exactly where you want him.
Encounter ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action
Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade.
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. Will
Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage, and you slide the target 1 square.
Artful Dodger: You slide the target a number of squares equal to your Charisma modifier.
Torturous Strike
Rogue Attack 1
If you twist the blade in the wound just so, you can make your enemy howl in pain.
Encounter ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action
Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade.
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. AC
Hit: 2[W] + Dexterity modifier damage.
Brutal Scoundrel: You gain a bonus to the damage roll equal to your Strength modifier.
Tumble
Rogue Utility 2
You tumble out of harm’s way, dodging the opportunistic attacks of your enemies.
Encounter ✦ Martial
Move Action
Personal
Prerequisite: You must be trained in Acrobatics.
Effect: You can shift a number of squares equal to one-half your speed.
Crimson Edge
Rogue Attack 9
You deal your enemy a vicious wound that continues to bleed, and like a shark, you circle in for the kill.
Daily ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action
Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade.
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. Fortitude
Hit: 2[W] + Dexterity modifier damage, and the target takes ongoing damage equal to 5 + your Strength modifier and grants combat advantage to you (save ends both).
Miss: Half damage, and no ongoing damage.
Note that you can view the article without logging in, with the "printer friendly" option at the bottom
Link: Here you go
Count me among the underwhelmed.
Not enough weapons choices (basically the same for armour, unless the categories are a lot different now), and what's with that implied weapon specialisation? I think it's unnecessary to limit the character like that, and remembering what types of weapons work better with what classes doesn't sound like making the game easier.
I hate the sentence "The trickster rogue and the brawny rogue are the two rogue builds". So it's about "builds" now? And there are only two?
Will more be available to you in other books? Sounds like going back to restrictions with splat books removing those.
Or will more be available in DDI? So much for "you don't need DDI."
Also, I second the part about fixed HP: While I prefer fixed HP myself, what I really prefer is options. 3e is all about options. It seems 4e will take many of those options.
Skills: Trained skills are stealth and thievery plus others. So instead of the 3e rogue, we practically have a sneakthief again. The classes become more narrow again. Probably so they can sell more books with extra classes you want to play.
I also don't like how Int doesn't change your "skill points" any more.
Sneak Attack: So now I can no longer sneak attack with any weapon? I figure sapping soem rube with a club on the back of the head is simply not fun.
"Powers". Those seemingly reinforce the narrow stereotypes. Your are continuously forced to use certain weapons, or you cannot use your "fun, cool powers".
I'll stick to my 3e and my freedom, thank you very much. And I hope so does Paizo.
I don't like it. I know, big shock there.
But it feels very restrictive. Like playing in a straight jacket. But bear in mind, I prefer classless, and levelless games. So that will taint my perception.
But it doesn't look like they made playing any faster, or more streamlined. And on top of that, they seem to have reduced character options.
"You can take this, or that."
"What if I want that other thing?"
"You can't do that."
"Why not?"
It reminds me of why I never got hooked on Everquest. The character I wanted to make could never be made.
KaeYoss, good catch on how to get around logging in. I'd like to comment a bit on a few things though...
I hate the sentence "The trickster rogue and the brawny rogue are the two rogue builds". So it's about "builds" now? And there are only two?
As was mentioned in the article, these are suggestions, not absolutes. Think of them as the equivalent of the Starting Packages in 3rd edition. You're equally as free to ignore them if you'd like.
Will more be available to you in other books? Sounds like going back to restrictions with splat books removing those.
Or will more be available in DDI? So much for "you don't need DDI."
Kinda jumping the gun a bit. We don't know what types of content they're planning on making available for the DDI, so we can't immediately say it will or it won't be needed.
Skills: Trained skills are stealth and thievery plus others. So instead of the 3e rogue, we practically have a sneakthief again. The classes become more narrow again. Probably so they can sell more books with extra classes you want to play.
I am all but certain that in Star Wars: Saga Edition you gained additional Trained Skills based upon Intelligence. I sadly don't have the book to confirm this at the moment, but Saga Edition was the base template for how a lot of the stuff we're seeing now will be played. Also, you can use most skills untrained now at a reasonable chance for success (all untrained skills have the equivalent of 1/2 your level in skill points in them).
Sneak Attack: So now I can no longer sneak attack with any weapon? I figure sapping soem rube with a club on the back of the head is simply not fun.
I don't personally have much complaint about this, since as I have always known it, a Sneak Attack is a precision based strike, which couldn't be accomplished with most larger or bulkier weapons. I'm not too thrilled by the lack of a club or sap option, but remember we haven't seen what all the Powers do either. Perhaps some are a "utility" style which allow you to use any weapon to Sneak Attack?
"Powers". Those seemingly reinforce the narrow stereotypes. Your are continuously forced to use certain weapons, or you cannot use your "fun, cool powers".
Not all the Powers we've seen demonstrated have forced you to use particular weapons. Most have, however. I think what we'll be seeing is that certain Attack oriented powers expect you to use the basic weapons of your class, but other powers will instead be utilities or other such things. If you want to play a Rogue who wields a Long Sword, I imagine it'll be easily possible to select only Powers which never use attacks. You'd be a little bit screwed over by the Sneak Attack part, but I think it would be possible.
A couple of first impressions:
1) Role, I don't like to be told what my job in the game is, atleast not in this way. It feels confining.
2) Fixed hp, I've thought about this in my 3e game, but eventually decided against it. Yes, everyone is tough now, but I think frailty can be a useful roleplaying tool.
3) weapon choices, very 2nd edition in a way. I like the availability of weapons for a rogue in 3e more.
4) powers, I like how certain powers target the various defences, in a way it is more 'real'. I foresee, however that bookkeeping will be hell in 4e. Determining who has 'combat advantage' and for how long doesn't sound fast.
General feel: interesting design choices I'd say. The combat may last longer but I think that metagaming will rise, if everything is fixed you can now know that the rogue you are fighting should only last for a certain amount of rounds more.
Bear in mind I can't see the article at all...looks like some people can, some can't. (crappy DNS as an attempt to load balance perhaps? Bad WOTC!)
EDIT: Flushing DNS cache didn't help, perhaps cached upstream by ISP DNS server? I'm no DNS expert...anyone have any other suggestions?
See if you can read this version.
As was mentioned in the article, these are suggestions, not absolutes. Think of them as the equivalent of the Starting Packages in 3rd edition. You're equally as free to ignore them if you'd like.
I hate the sentence "The trickster rogue and the brawny rogue are the two rogue builds". So it's about "builds" now? And there are only two?
This may be true, but it is easy to misinterpret it then.
KeaYoss' quote is the first line under Creating a Rogue. It comes across as pretty absolute.
I'd like to start positive: I'm really really happy Wizards finally released something like this (and the elf). It's what I was looking for, because it does help.
Agreed - the actual classes are what has been really missing from the picture. Unfortunately the picture is about as ugly as the Tiefling on the player's handbook.
Build Guides: Horrible, and here is *why*:
"Required" or not, these are essentially little feat-path sort of things. Since they've provided quite limited "paths", it's 100% certain they will expand by adding more options and intended builds.
That alone will lead to power creep, but some people like that in general. What's horrible is that there will probably be talent-combos that will be overpowered to delirious levels - will far less play-testing b/c you're "supposed" to take it in a particular build.
I went into reading this as a fervent despiser of 4th edition. Obviously it hasn't changed that opinion, but even so I must say I'm rather shocked at just how mundane the class looks.
FYI on HP: 3rd vs. 4th - assuming Con of 12, with +2 per ~10 levels.
1st level: 6+ con mod (avg. ~7) vs. 12+ con score (avg. ~24)
5th level: 20+ 5xcon (~25) vs. 32+ con (~44)
11th level: 41+ 11xcon (~63) vs. 62+ con (~76)
21st level: 76+ 21xcon (~139) vs. 112+ con (~128)
29th level: 114+ 29xcon (~226) vs. 152+ con (~170)
So a 1st level 4th edition rogue has the hp of a 5th level 3rd edition rogue.. plus they're using reserve points, yes? - so actually double that. I think WOTC got purchased by the Flying Circus.
I dont see what the problem is with the new rogue. Its basically like the old rogue, just with more options on a round-by-round basis.
The Role, Power Source, and Key Abilities sections are basically what you get in the 3rd Edition PH right now.
Armor Training: Leather seems to just be "proficient with light armor", by another name.
The part about Weapon Proficiencies is almost exactly how it works in 3rd Edition, except that you dont get all those simple weapons that you probably werent going to use anyway. And if you think that "only" five weapons is limiting, I'm sure there is a feat or ability you can take to expand upon it. Remember, you're supposed to get more feats in 4E, which might explain why they reduced the number of overall WPs.
Of course, the Bonus to Defense is like your base save.
So far, nothing really "new" or out there. Its a lot like the rogue we have now.
Moving on, we get to hit points. You appear to get double the max, which isnt that much more powerful than before, but you get a fixed amount of hit points every level (5 + Con mod). Now, I'm sure some people are going to take issues with this, but I think that a lot of groups have likely been using the, "take the average" rule. If you want to roll, I'm sure there is a way to do that.
Healing surges? No idea what they do, but it sounds like the whole Second Wind thing, and I like that mechanic.
Under the Trained Skills section, you get two automatically and pick four more. No mention of getting to tack on your Int bonus to this amount. This would seem to mean that the rogue is "less-skilled" than before (essentially six skill points instead of eight), but the list was crunched down anyway.
Build Options are two different starting packages (instead of one), and Class Features are class features.
Now, I'm really liking stuff like Rogue Weapon Talent. That doesnt penalize you for not using certain weapons, but if you maintain the rogue-ish theme, you get added benefits. Kind of encourages, but not enforces, a style.
The rogue "powers" are also very neat, because now you get to do more in combat aside from moving and then just attacking over and over again until the monster dies (which is all you really can do up until 10th-level when you start picking rogue special abilities).
The fact that your rogue style (whether you emphasis strength over agility) affects some of your powers also helps encourage (but again, not enforce) a kind of style as well. People who are more graceful get more out of Positioning Strike.
All in all, the power curve doesnt seem that much more escalated than before. If anything, this rogue does what the other rogue does, but just has more interesting combat options.
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One gripe I have is that it mentions all Rogues gain Stealth and Thievery as trained skills, yet Stealth and Thievery are both on the list of skills Rogues can have trained. This seems strange, after all, they've already got them? Perhaps this will also be a mechanic explained latter, related to Multi-classing? I'm also fairly certain Intelligence still adds to your Skills, as it did in Star Wars: Saga Edition.
From previous discussions, I take it that they are doing away with the 'bean-counting' aspect of '1 skill point there, 1 skill point there...'.
You would simply be considered 'trained' (ie maxed out skill), or 'untrained' (slightly skilled). INT could add to the number of maxed out skills, rather than giving extra free-form skill points.
Sort of how the sample 1st-level builds in 3.5 say 'pick X number of skills, and you have 4 ranks in them'.
Armor Training: Leather seems to just be "proficient with light armor", by another name.
I don't know. If that is true, then there might only be 4 or 5 different armors. Unless they mean Leather as in the material, rather than the style. In which case it opens the possibility of munchkining "heavy" leather armor that Rogues can wear without penalty.
The part about Weapon Proficiencies is almost exactly how it works in 3rd Edition, except that you dont get all those simple weapons that you probably werent going to use anyway.
That is just silly. I'm probably not going to play a Paladin. Does that mean it should be removed from the game for everyone? Not at all. Rules alterations should never be made because of what a sub-set won't use or do.
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So a 1st level 4th edition rogue has the hp of a 5th level 3rd edition rogue.. plus they're using reserve points, yes? - so actually double that.
Don't forget the extra potential negative hp, as well...
<dodges Majuba having fit...>Edit: Its my best bet (or at least sad hope for 4th edition players) that the "Short sword" proficiency is a general proficiency that will allow for other weapons under it, such as rapier.
Not necessarily. I think it will be an option to choose a feat that increases your range of weapons, preferably by groups, rather than single weapons, as now. An adventuring rogue, travelling the wilds may well take it, but an urban rogue (especially in a town that forbids carrying weapons) may well not bother, preferring to increase his deadliness with a narrow range of concealable blades.
I can easily imagine a 'Sweeney Todd' style assassin, with very high Sneak Attack, but only proficient with a razor (counts as dagger).
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I'm not that impressed. The class seems very narrow, while at the same time having a small number of very complicated options. How in the world are these any simpler or easier to remember and use than a 3.5 rouge's sneak attack, evasion, uncanny dodge, and decent skill points? I'm sure that those aren't all the rogue's powers and talents. If they are why is the PHB so big, and why are so many core classes being left out? They wanted more simplicity, but it seems all they did was make non-spellcasters require as much bookkeeping and memorization as spellcasters in 3.5. So what was the point of 4E again? Oh yeah, they had to boost sales with a new edition or be kicked to the curb. It's just sad to see what corporate greed can do to anything.