...
(Where you see the "..." above insert Nick-Crazy-As-You-Choose-To-Experience-It)
I find Watcher's post hilarious - you get me sir.
When I'm going crazy, believe it or not, it's usually a satirical rumpus hurled at the internets for no other reason than why Klimpt might throw a skull among a cloudscape of angels. It is merely a way to offer perspective on topics soooooooo many of us (including myself) feel they are done thinking about - no need to be dead in the head about any topic, concept or aspect of culture says I. I like to provoke interesting conversations. I enjoy high-minded debate on myriad topics:
The Nature of Evil
Weapons of Mass Distraction in the Media and Politics
Sex in RPGs
The Perpetration of Organized Religion
The Industrial War Machine of the United States
Our Complete Lack of Interest in Education or Intellectualism in the US
Our Obsession with Pop Culture Icons Who Possess NO Talent
The Lie That is Logic
Reality Television as "Art"
Our Strange Relationship to Violence in this Country
Let's look at the last one there. I'm anti-war, I don't believe in hunting, I'm a vegetarian. I take public transportation to save on energy so as not to wound our world. Yet I have no problem with horrid displays of brutality in fiction, because that's fiction, and through fiction or art (and our most visceral responses to it), we gain a better understanding of ourselves, our society and the world we live in.
I find it very interesting that so many people think I am a sick f+@@, when truly I would never wish ill on any other human being on this planet, and when by sacrificing a little of my time or money, I can make this world a better place for everyone, I happily do so. How many self-righteous a#+!&#+s can say the same? Maybe all of them, maybe none.
But maybe I'm just a guayaki-drunken sex-freak who eats baby genitalia for elevensies.
I'm interested in probing deeper into my own soul and the souls of others with anything I do. I want a response. And say what you will about HMM, it definitely got one. I could lick the vitriol spewed at me right off my screen when that s$$*storm hit, and it didn't really bother me as much as it was fascinating to behold (and I wonder what might have happened if James hadn't been such a thorough editor).
I'd love to write more, but I have to go screw a child's mandible onto my pelvis and save some stray kittens from freezing to death.
G'night Kids!
EDIT: Oh, and just in case you were wondering: I'M COMING FOR YOUR CHILDREN!!!
As a gamer in both the P&P and electronic meanings of the word, this is an issue that is entirely too familiar to me. In some circles of videogame discussion this issue comes up all the time, and there's some very real issues here that are, in some ways, more dramatic representations of extant issues in other mediums.
Videogames have suffered from a long-standing double-standard with movies. The Saw franchise has earned a consistent rating of R, but if you made a game with the same material, the ESRB would have to create a new rating above AO and there'd still be riots in the streets. And if you wrote a book with the same material, it wouldn't have a rating and would be filed next to Princess Pretty's Pony. In fact, I'm sure books with the same material already exist, and the only reason I can't name them is because they went so utterly unnoticed.
Unfortunately, the best solution anybody has to solving the dramatic misrepresentation of video games to the common man is this: wait until everybody who didn't grow up with video games is dead. Senator Lieberman will never understand videogames, and he'll continue to introduce dramatically misinformed and fundamentally inane legislation until he falls over dead.
I've had internet access ever since late grade school, so by this point I've been around the internet a few times and seen samples of every kind of disgusting or alarming photo there is. I'm not saying that those things don't squick me out anymore, but I don't get angry or offended with the sites who host these images, or the people who send me links to them, or even the internet which provided access to them. If something offends me, it's my responsibility to avoid it. If you demand that somebody else change, filter, or remove something because you don't like it, then you're being an egocentric b+&*@. If Logue's work crosses the line for you, that's fine; but instead of telling Paizo to not publish Logue's work, just don't buy it. You have every right to maintain your own personal moral standards and thresholds, and no right to demand that others conform to them.
Creative Director
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Videogames have suffered from a long-standing double-standard with movies. The Saw franchise has earned a consistent rating of R, but if you made a game with the same material, the ESRB would have to create a new rating above AO and there'd still be riots in the streets.
We'll get to see how that pans out soon enough; apparently, the sequel to Saw IV is being developed as a video game and not a movie.
And if you wrote a book with the same material, it wouldn't have a rating and would be filed next to Princess Pretty's Pony. In fact, I'm sure books with the same material already exist, and the only reason I can't name them is because they went so utterly unnoticed.
They absolutely do exist. As I mentioned earlier, many of Stephen King's books and stories contain material on par with what's in Saw; his short story "Survivor Type" comes to mind... a story about a surgeon who becomes stranded on a tiny island and has nothing to eat but himself... And event that's pretty tame compared to early Clive Barker or other authors in the Splatterpunk genre. And believe it or not, some of those books/stories are actually quite good! Not for everyone, of course, but nothing is.
Videogames have suffered from a long-standing double-standard with movies. The Saw franchise has earned a consistent rating of R, but if you made a game with the same material, the ESRB would have to create a new rating above AO and there'd still be riots in the streets.We'll get to see how that pans out soon enough; apparently, the sequel to Saw IV is being developed as a video game and not a movie.
Really? That'll go poorly. Manhunt 2 not too long ago had to fight, tooth and nail, to get an M rating; in the end they had to gut and censor their game to not get an AO. And that wasn't even torture; that was just good, old-fashioned murder. (The general sentiment in the gaming community was something along the lines of "But... it's not even a good game!")
apparently, the sequel to Saw IV is being developed as a video game and not a movie.
Don't you mean the quintel to Saw? ;)
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I have little interest in graphic violence in gaming, dont mind it, just doesnt do anything for me. I took no offense from anything in HMM but realised it would not be of much use to my normal group which comprises of largely 40 year old married with childredn types. I think the story was good and quality of description was evocative and I wish there was stuff of this quality (though not style) to use to run a game for my kids.
IMO There is a significant difference between cartoon violence/common D&D violence (dropped an anvil on him turning him into a pancake, hit him with a sword so he ran out of hit points and died) and the more graphic stuff. It is the former that I have grown up with in my D&D for the last 30 years- it is what I am used to. It is what I want to introduce to my kids.
I'm sure part of it is the changing world itself. I'm POSITIVE that if Jaws were released today, it'd get a PG-13 rating. Maybe even an R. And if Clash of the Titans were made today... the nipple would not make an appearance.
I agree completely, and that's fascinating to me. Everything I see in the media seems to suggest that there is a perception that we're becoming a more and more decadent and jaded society. Yet, for all that we're supposedly our moral fabric, our mainsteam media becomes more restrictive.
This might an attempt to reverse this so-called 'societal decay', but the same materials are available, they're just driven more underground... and our society becomes more fragmented by factions with different values.
Did Clash of the Titans need a bare breast to tell it's story? No. Yet much of the classic period artwork from that culture doesn't reflect a nudity taboo. While Jaws, in trying to capture true horror, did accomplish that in a new and compelling way- I'm not sure if it could have been done without it.
Time's also a factor. Both of those movies have been out for decades, while Pathfinder's been out only for months. The movies have stood the test of time and remain part of pop culture today (Jaws more than Clash, of course). It remains to be seen if Pathfinder'll be remembered in 30 years. (crosses fingers)
True.. but it got past the filters in the first place, so that it could enter into Pop Culture.
I hope Pathfinder lasts at least as long as the Forgotten Realms has in formal publication.
Perhaps I'll respond to Nick, but the Missus just broke out the 2nd Rob in Sherwood DvD!
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Creative Director
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Did Clash of the Titans need a bare breast to tell it's story? No. Yet much of the classic period artwork from that culture doesn't reflect a nudity taboo.
I disagree, and for precisely the reason you mention. Classic artwork from the period had a LOT of nudity, therefore including nudity in a movie set in those times WAS important to help establish the flavor of a different society, a different time.
And I certainly hope Pathfinder's remembered in 30 years too! :)
But yeah... in any case, I do agree that the perception that society is becoming more "decadent and jaded" is false, and that in fact society in the US is instead becoming more repressed and conservative. Given 9/11 and the political scene since then, that evolution of our society doesn't surprise me at all.
Word. First time, I kept my eyes open. Second time, I put the camera on a tripod and shouted encouraging words from the corner.Gore and torture porn and sex-talk and all that is really fascinating to anyone who hasn't watched their wife give birth.
I've fortunately never had to watch anyone give birth, but I've seen more than one advice columnist say things to the effect of: Ladies, want to keep the spark in your marriage after the kids are born? Don't make him watch. He'll never look at you the same way again.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Okay. Let me try to be serious for a change.
Where do I draw the line in terms of the amount of gore or porn in an adventure? I might say "When I can't run the adventure without it" but that's not true. I'd still take buy an adventure that contained some gory or naughty parts I couldn't change. Why?
Sometimes I play with my 8-year-old. I like playing with an 8-year-old. He's brilliant and funny and kind of dumb. He'll drink the vial labelled in goblin "This Here Don't Not Contain Poison. Honest. Truly Honest."
He has free access to a lot of my D&D books but not my Pathfinders. Why? Because he's not ready for that type of gore. Those are my books that I keep them on the top shelf in the basement. (Oddly enough that's where my dad kept his porn).
Does that mean I'm unhappy with Pathfinder? Hell no! Damn, the kid will play anything. WotC put's out enough stuff for him. I want Nicolas Logue to scare the hell out of me. I like to be scared. I took James Jacobs advice and watched 'The Hills Have Eyes' before reading 'The Hook Mountain Massacre' and it freaked me out. I was quivering. That hasn't happened in years. Thank you, Mr. Logue.
So, what offends me? Actually I get really ticked off at censors. They piss me off. People who get upset about some gay characters in RotRL or CotCT! Those are the people who piss me off. Homophobia is more offensive to me than homosexuality. If anyone objected to frank depictions of the effects of colonization on the Shoanti, that would probably tick me off too. Talk to me about the ugly parts. If anyone objected to a storyline that had some well-handled but complex issues related to race and racism, that would piss me off.
I guess I'm not so much afraid of imaginary violence or imagined sex. I'm more afraid of the denial of the everyday forms of 'symbolic' violence that gnaw away at people or explode in a frenzy of hate.
In the end though, the things that offend me happen pretty regularly so I've developed a thick skin. I'll politely smile and tell the offending party 'I think you can do better.'
Perhaps I'll respond to Nick, but the Missus just broke out the 2nd Rob in Sherwood DvD!
Watcher! Always choose an awesome DVD with the Missus over the internet, says I! Look forward to rapping with you tons more on Open Design! I also have a livejournal message to respond too, I've been a delinquent friend my man, sorry about that. Thanks for understanding that my internet crazy is in the spirit of good fun and not cause I'm actually a sicko in real life.
Talk to you more soon my man!
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Just, whatever it takes for scary, man. I shy away from rape, too much torture, and messing with kids, because there's no point to it.
I mean, hassling a guy like on NYPD Blue ain't bad, but that's about the extent of it.
I like scary, though. And those "hey, boah. Yew gawta pur-dee mouth" ogres or whatever in Pathfinder are scary to me.
I can agree with many of the posts and/or opinions here, so I'll skip re-posting them in my own words. That poor horse is still getting residual beatings in its afterlife... (lol, I hate horses. Beat away!)
Anywho, I will however reply to the OP's request of my "line."
Compared to many here on Paizo, I'm still in my D&D diapers. But I have played in numerous games spread over even more types of genre. Of those, a friend's WoD story was without a doubt the darkest. (or "mature," if you will)
He shifted from pedophilia/snuff rings to slave markets to religious corruption/genocide to outright murder, rape, and torture, but he is a brilliant story-teller/DM and did it all as tastefully as anyone could hope to. The elements were there for the story, not for shock.
My line depends on the DM (as many have already said) OR my specific level of attachment to any parties involved. A good example is "The Hills Have Eyes."
That movie struck deep with me not because of the gore/violence/rape/etc, but because it was happening to a family. The emotional connections between them are what made each death so painful, not how it happened. When I see the wife shot in the head, it hurts and frightens me. I connect with that scene because I am married and such a thought truely scares me.
If the movie was about a group of high school/college friends instead, it'd still suck to be them, but I'd probably get bored, not scared.
This is true for most any situation I can think of: rape, murder, torture, anything. If I have some form of connection, the situation is petrifying if not painful or infuriating. But without that connection, heck, I may cheer depending on how far the blood sprays.
-Kurocyn
I disagree, and for precisely the reason you mention. Classic artwork from the period had a LOT of nudity, therefore including nudity in a movie set in those times WAS important to help establish the flavor of a different society, a different time.
Actually, I think we're on the same wavelength, but I say things in an odd way sometimes.
What I was trying to say is.. you could tell the story of Clash of the Titans without a bare breast (and I believe that is true), but because of the culture and society that the subject material is based, it's appropriate for it to be there.
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It's interesting to me to recall Greek Mythology from early high school, in that I am amazed at how well they managed to sanitize it without us kids ever knowing that we were getting the filtered version. Take the Theseus in the Labyrinth story. That's a great bit about the Minotaur, but there was no reference to Pasiphaë (and Daedalus, her accomplice in getting her groove back) in explaining where the Minotaur came from.
Not to mention the erratic and violent behavior of Herakles.
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I think the sanitizing of mythology even has an impact on DnD. In talking to Nick Logue about his Open Design project, I sort of dissected the myth of the Gorgon from a different perspective.
DnD portrays them as snake-headed women (and now men) who have a power, which they use as a weapon, to turn people to stone. That's not treating it like a curse, that's giving someone a super power.. and the curse like aspect of that is further offset by the fact that men medusae are introduced to give them breeding partners.
But in mythology, that ability to petrify is a curse from Athena. Depending which version you read (taking this from Ovid), Medusa is a lovely priestess in the temple of Athena who is raped by Posideon. Athena blames Medusa for having carnal relations in her Temple and inflicts this curse upon her. In some interpretations she's hideously ugly, but in many versions she's still lovely but with snake hair. It begs the question of what is the intent of the curse? I would argue that the intent is for Medusa to always be alone, shunned, and never to be looked upon again with desire.
Anyway.. I digress. I do like the medusae angle Sean Reynolds did in the write-up for Lamashtu.
Watcher! Always choose an awesome DVD with the Missus over the internet, says I! Look forward to rapping with you tons more on Open Design! I also have a livejournal message to respond too, I've been a delinquent friend my man, sorry about that. Thanks for understanding that my internet crazy is in the spirit of good fun and not cause I'm actually a sicko in real life.
Talk to you more soon my man!
No worries about Open Design! I've been following along, but when I start posting I'm not going to worry about having posted too much, or crowding anybody out of having an opportunity to speak. That last one was free clear.
I do look forward to any comments you had regarding that secret offlist conversation, especially since that was.. close to a month ago? I wonder what you think of the whole situation now.. but I say no more, this is not the venue for that conversation.
As for being a sicko... nah.. I think human beings get a little threatened by things without much power, like words. There is a line that can be crossed (especially when the speaker is serious), but there is also a point at which words are just noise and we take it upon ourselves to decide that they're offensive to us.
Besides, I think Seoni's got a great rack, and Drow Priestesses should be wearing bikini armor (to cover their likewise comparable racks) and day-glow make-up! So, as an objectifier of women, my place next you on Dante's Second Circle is assured. Who knows, maybe one day you'll get me to write the 't' word on the Paizo boards...
I feel that the various taboo themes covered here all are fine... in small doses. They can greatly enhance a storyline or particular NPC, but there is a big difference between adding some disturbing flavor to a story and a D&D porn/snuff film. If the BBEG is a rapist. Fine, but I do not need details.
Ah, this thread again.
::Promptly slits wrists and climbs into a hot bath::
;-)
And here I thought I was being original. *Offers you my sharpest Razor with an evil grin* Don't get down about it, I'm a huge fan. I'm one of the few that would like you to get darker with your games.
Now, I'm going to assassinate this thread with a chainsaw dildo, if you all don't mind.
::Revvs up dildo-saw, puts on pig mask::
Now if you replace one of your hands with the chainsaw..No wait, I think thats been done.
I'm sure part of it is the changing world itself. I'm POSITIVE that if Jaws were released today, it'd get a PG-13 rating. Maybe even an R. And if Clash of the Titans were made today... the nipple would not make an appearance.
But that's the side effect of this PC BS that has so permeated our society. And yes, jaws would be a pg13. And Clash of the Titans would have the Kraken doing a musical number because it would have been ruined by freakin Disney! (THink about how @#%$ed THe Hunchback of Noterdame was!)Our society has a Knack for dumbing things down for our kids if it makes us too uncomfortable to talk to them about it.
They absolutely do exist. As I mentioned earlier, many of Stephen King's books and stories contain material on par with what's in Saw; his short story "Survivor Type" comes to mind... a story about a surgeon who becomes stranded on a tiny island and has nothing to eat but himself... And event that's pretty tame compared to early Clive Barker or other authors in the Splatterpunk genre.
CLive is comming soon to the big screen with Midnight Meat Train. Buckets of blood.
Really? That'll go poorly. Manhunt 2 not too long ago had to fight, tooth and nail, to get an M rating; in the end they had to gut and censor their game to not get an AO. And that wasn't even torture; that was just good, old-fashioned murder. (The general sentiment in the gaming community was something along the lines of "But... it's not even a good game!")Videogames have suffered from a long-standing double-standard with movies. The Saw franchise has earned a consistent rating of R, but if you made a game with the same material, the ESRB would have to create a new rating above AO and there'd still be riots in the streets.We'll get to see how that pans out soon enough; apparently, the sequel to Saw IV is being developed as a video game and not a movie.
CHeck of CLive Barkers Game for PS3 called Jericho. It's Hellraiser as a first person shooter.
The point was made that context is the key to why novels for example can get away with a lot more than an rpg. I think this is a good point.
However I wonder if 'mature' as a rating has not come to reflect a certain squeamishness and prudishness--a kind of conservative knee jerk reaction--as opposed to say realizing that mature reflects a more complex view of reality.
To me mature doesn't mean simply that there's sex, nudity, violence--if you take Clash fo the Titans it has all three of these, but the first is implied, the second is rather innocent (bathing, nursing a child, etc) and the last is rather cartoonish and mostly shows man against monster, one disaster scene as well. I saw it as a kid and wasn't disturbed by anything in it except the monster Caliban stalking Perseus in the swamp, and only that because it was a bit of a spooky scene.
On the other hand stories with morality snarled into complication, violation of the idea of normalcy, sex outright (because we see oddly few depictions in any medium of sex between a married couple in a loving and tender way) the genuine results of drunkeness or drug use, the supernatural in a horrorifying or utterly creepy context--these are mature.
I think it is perfectly understandable that games (both video and p-and-p) get more flack than books or movies. In games, the players often can, or even have to (Grand Theft Auto I'm looking at you), participate in the contraversial aspects. In a book or movie, the person is not interacting with the medium, they are an observer.
Having said that, I find it kind of humorous, in a sad way, that people think books can get away with anything. How many times do we have to hear about people getting upset with the contents of a book? Here is a news story about a teacher getting suspended, and possible legal charges, for a "poor" choice of a book on an "approved" reading list:
Teacher Faces Possible Criminal Charges for Reading List
... Ladies, want to keep the spark in your marriage after the kids are born? Don't make him watch. He'll never look at you the same way again.
Bah. As a married man who watched his daughter being born, I find this sentiment to be revolting and inane. It's inextricably linked to our culture's obsession with a person's appearance rather than their merit as a human being.
Understand, I'm not saying Ross is revolting and inane, only the message that he's quoting from advice columnists.
Admittedly, though, its an eye-opening experience. The human body is an amazing biomechanical organism.
Okay, back on topic!
Having said that, I find it kind of humorous, in a sad way, that people think books can get away with anything. How many times do we have to hear about people getting upset with the contents of a book? Here is a news story about a teacher getting suspended, and possible legal charges, for a "poor" choice of a book on an "approved" reading list:
Teacher Faces Possible Criminal Charges for Reading List
It's just such a slipperly slope once you start banning. I can see how in the age of school shootings books about killing everyone in town will certainly sound an alarm, but kids who are going to go on killfests are just as easily going to rally behind a movie as a book. Ratings don't do squat to keep kids from seeing anything anymore. Violence, anger, and perverse thoughts are a common part of most children's minds... it's a hard thing to theoretically govern and regulate. Would we all be better if we had our impulses to hulksmash removed from our minds? Depends on who our bioengineering corporate shepherd is, doesn't it? ;) (ah, so ready to write some cyberpunk)
From the end of that article:
In 2005, a seventh-grade teacher in Grand Rapids, Mich., was suspended and later transferred to another school after a parent complained about a classroom reading of "Telephone Man," a story about prejudice containing racial slurs.
Parents have sought to ban various books, including John Steinbeck's "Of Mice and Men" and J.K. Rowling's "Harry Potter" series, as well as books on Cuba or gay penguins, according to the American Library Association. Last year, schools or public libraries received nearly 550 requests to remove books, the Chicago-based association said.
"When you get to book cases where someone has a difference of opinion, you have to honor these things," said former teacher Linda Bridges, who is president of the Texas American Federation of Teachers, a 57,000-member union, of which Tierce is not a member. "But if a book has been vetted and approved by the district, then the teacher has done nothing wrong."
I have two gaming groups. I am DMing HMM for the 40+ year-olds, and homebrew for my wife and daughters. NL's episode in HMM raised some eyebrows for the older group and will not get run for the younger.
That being said, I have a different perspective on the matter. Sex and nudity doesn't bother me, either in descriptive text or pictures, but neither is permissible at this time for my daughters.
Violence/gore (actually, inflicted pain) does give me problems, however. Not moralistic or ethical problems, but physical problems. The boat scene in Sharkey's Machine left me unconscious on the floor. The Mynder's farm episode in Stephen King's book Firestarter left me with nausea, tunnel vision, shaking, and sweating. I have a blatant reaction to violence/gore/pain. I love Bladerunner, but unless I am prepared for it, the final scenes can cause me physical problems (and sometimes even when I am prepared for it).
When going to the movies, I can choose to avoid those situations that cause those problems by using the ratings system and online overviews. I know which writers I can read and which to avoid. I have read several SK novels without problem.
It is not hard to label a product as "contains excessive gore and violence / nudity / sex / rape" or some other warning that the product contains what some people may find objectionable or offensive. I feel it is the responsibility of the publisher to ensure that all of their customers have a chance to enjoy the products they produce and the information to avoid those they would not.
I do not have time to edit or re-write an adventure I purchase. Not having a lot of time to craft my own is one of the reasons I buy published adventures.
And finally, Nick, your graphic depiction of the ogre-kin and their activities did not raise my blood pressure in the slightest. Apparently there was not sufficient immediacy to trigger a reaction, but don't expect me to read any short stories you may decide to publish.
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So, what offends me? Actually I get really ticked off at censors. They piss me off. People who get upset about some gay characters in RotRL or CotCT! Those are the people who piss me off. Homophobia is more offensive to me than homosexuality.
You're absolutely right. I can't stand people like this guy.
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Creative Director
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CLive is comming soon to the big screen with Midnight Meat Train. Buckets of blood.
Midnight Meat Train is one of Barker's coolest short stories. I hope the movie does it justice. I'm certainly intrigued by the fact that the director of the moive's the same guy who did "Godzilla: Final Wars" and several pretty cool horror/action movies too...
It's just such a slipperly slope once you start banning.
Maybe, maybe not. Often time the slippery slope statement is a way to justifiy having no standards at all.
I can see how in the age of school shootings books about killing everyone in town will certainly sound an alarm, but kids who are going to go on killfests are just as easily going to rally behind a movie as a book. Ratings don't do squat to keep kids from seeing anything anymore. Violence, anger, and perverse thoughts are a common part of most children's minds... it's a hard thing to theoretically govern and regulate. Would we all be better if we had our impulses to hulksmash removed from our minds? Depends on who our bioengineering corporate shepherd is, doesn't it? ;)
Actually the violence wasn't necessarily the biggest problem with this particular book:
Child of God|
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And here I thought I was being original. *Offers you my sharpest Razor with an evil grin* Don't get down about it, I'm a huge fan. I'm one of the few that would like you to get darker with your games.Ah, this thread again.
::Promptly slits wrists and climbs into a hot bath::
;-)
Attend the tale of Sweeney Todd...
His skin was pale and his eye was odd...Perhaps, today, you gave a nod...
To Sweeney Todd...
Swing your razor high, Sweeney...
Raise it to the skyyyyyyy...
It's just such a slipperly slope once you start banning.Maybe, maybe not. Often time the slippery slope statement is a way to justifiy having no standards at all.
But that's not what I said so I'm not sure why you brought it up. I'm not anti-label, despite a lot of my musician friends thinking labels were the antichrist. I like knowing that rape is going to appear in a movie I'm about to watch on cable. That label makes me turn the channel.
That aside, if there was a pull trigger solution to the greater issue of human aggression it would have been pulled long ago. There isn't. This world is shades of gray and every good argument has a good counter-argument as we spin our wheels harmlessly ad infinitum. People raped and killed plenty even back when Leave it to Beaver was first run and even back when Sumerian Temples were a great place to meet girls. The human race doesn't change all that much, despite the bolder media. I'm not a fan of certain effects the media has on youth but I'm not a fan of restriction as solution or technocratic means to keep us all in line through vigilant *monitoring. It really is a slippery slope. All power corrupts, and when we give power to our fear and those who would proclaim its value, it is often used against us and we never know it because we're so distracted and warm in the thought that we got what we really wanted.
My single mother told me what I could and couldn't watch, and she was fairly liberal about it. However, she stepped in when she needed to and invited me into long educational conversations regarding sex, violence, racism, pride, vanity... she did her job.
A general lack of restriction to media (within bounds, of course), tempered with the solid values taught by my mother, made me the man I am today. I'm fully formed, afraid of little, and completely odd. Boo.
*This isn't to say that we shouldn't be monitoring the behavior of our children. They deserve everyday attention, love, fair discipline, and sometimes... just sometimes, a straight jacket.
But that's not what I said so I'm not sure why you brought it up.
Surely you are not suggesting that only things you say are worthy of discussion.
That aside, if there was a pull trigger solution to the greater issue of human aggression it would have been pulled long ago. There isn't.
Nor did I say/suggest/imply there was. That doesn't mean that as a society, people can't say "over here it is extremely safe", "over there is it extremely disruptive", and "in the middle reasonable people can disagree". The whole "slippery slope is going to happen" argument means that a society has to accept the extremely disruptive merely because the part of middle can't be clearly defined. And that is not an absolute truth, that is why the slippery slope argument can be a logical fallacy (though not always):
Slippery SlopeI'm not a fan of certain effects the media has on youth but I'm not a fan of restriction as solution or technocratic means to keep us all in line through vigilant *monitoring.
Even without any effect on youth, is it "uplifting" to a culture to dwell on such negative aspects of human nature, especially when not giving equal time to the more common postive aspects of human nature? Alot more people give to charity and donate their time to helping others than murder/rape, and yet some wish to say murder and rape is "human nature" and charity isn't.
It really is a slippery slope. All power corrupts, and when we give power to our fear and those who would proclaim its value, it is often used against us and we never know it because we're so distracted and warm in the thought that we got what we really wanted.
It could be, but again there is no guarantee that it will be a "slippery slope". And it is just as much "giving power to our fears" to say that the acceptance of any conditions would cause all freedom to be lost, that is also a fear, perhaps an unreasonable one. Reasonable people in a society can come to agreements that some things are "over the line" without clearly defining precisely where that line is.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Teacher candidates in at least one B.Ed. program in Ontario are cautioned against the use of the term 'bullet points' as this may be considered to have violent connotations. They are encouraged to refer to these things as 'nuggets' instead.
If it is a slippery slope I hope we are nearing the bottom because that is some ******* dumb ass ****.
Teacher candidates in at least one B.Ed. program in Ontario are cautioned against the use of the term 'bullet points' as this may be considered to have violent connotations. They are encouraged to refer to these things as 'nuggets' instead.
If it is a slippery slope I hope we are nearing the bottom because that is some ******* dumb ass ****.
LOL, I wonder why they didn't just call them "points" or something. Nuggets makes me think of hitting Mickie D's for lunch.
I'm 16 and I find the gratuitous use of 'mature' themes irritating. Its not interesting or cool, its just annoying and distasteful. Mostly I think that such themes, used in moderation, can greatly add to a story. A little gore or sex or disturbing themes can be necassary for a story but used in overabundance, they take whatever real 'punch' the story would have had. Often I find they're used to cover a lack of an actual story with depth. Horror is far more effective if the man who's killed horribly by the monster is killed off stage with enough hints as to what's going on for the audience to know than if its done out in the open. What each individual's mind can come up with for what's happening to the red shirt is worse than anything a writer or director can come up with because it taps into your own fears. Too much blood, gore, sex ect usually means that its a low quality product trying to cover its shortcomings with shock value.
You are quoting my opinion on this matter perfectly. I personally love the whole Play-with-your-mind type of horror.
And here I thought I was being original. *Offers you my sharpest Razor with an evil grin* Don't get down about it, I'm a huge fan. I'm one of the few that would like you to get darker with your games.Ah, this thread again.
::Promptly slits wrists and climbs into a hot bath::
;-)
Ha! I think I tapped out a bit recently, but never fear I've got a couple of decidedly dark projects in the works my man!
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I'm vastly more offended by the fact that modern media has somehow managed to sell Paris Hilton as a figure to be admired and emulated to some of today's youth than any amount of gore.
It's not like anything Nic has written could compare to the amount of rape, murder, genocide and forced-abortion present in the best-selling book of all time.
I'm vastly more offended by the fact that modern media has somehow managed to sell Paris Hilton as a figure to be admired and emulated to some of today's youth than any amount of gore.
It's not like anything Nic has written could compare to the amount of rape, murder, genocide and forced-abortion present in the best-selling book of all time.
I dunno, I think Paris Hilton is used more as an object of ridicule than a role model these days. Nevertheless, I'm still offended with you, because any attention paid to her puts more money in her bank account.
As for the second paragraph, I'm going to assume you're referring to the Bible... which is a complex book indeed.
(and if you're not, I'm about to make a fool out of myself, but you might find this interesting anyway)
I'm always floored by the number of people who don't stop and consider the Bible has been translated through multiple languages to arrive at any particular English version you might be reading.
I'll give you an example.. In the Old Testament God refers to the 'thick necked people'.. I believe (though I might be slightly off) that this is in Exodus, when Moses is leading the people to the promised land. When you strip away the Greek and go right to the Hebrew text, possibly the most accurate translation is 'd!ck heads', which after a couple of translations is cleaned up to 'thick necked people', which is now an antiquated term for stubborn people. And this makes sense because Hebrew is a very earthy language. Old Testament God gets frustrated from time to time and does use what our society would now deem as bad language.
I realize I'm starting to get side tracked, so let me bring it back into context. At the graduate level, most accredited seminaries will tell you that there are portions of the Bible that require a certain amount of maturity to understand, both literal and spiritual. I recall a Rabbi once saying of the Book of Revelations, that it was not something to be taught to young or immature people, and to do so is to be careless with their spiritual development.
And in case I'm losing anybody with my train of thought, I'm actually agreeing with Set, not disagreeing.. But I am taking it to another level.
We have a tendency, inherited from the movie industry, to slap a label of 'mature audience' on a piece of work and divorce everyone of responsibility. It's obvious in the case of the movie maker, they have a standard to adhere to that includes advising on the nature of the content. What is so often overlooked is the responsibility and maturity on the part of the viewer! We look at an R rating of a film, pay our money, and the accountability to be mature about what we're seeing completely ends. And what do I mean by maturity on the part of the viewer? I don't mean being serious and having a stick up the backside, I mean understanding that there's a context, and separating that context from reality. It also means understanding that some mature content may not be very good, but that doesn't mean that all mature content is bad.
That when something is considered mature, that doesn't mean 'violent or naughty' it means that you the consumer should be mature. The responsibility is shared.
There is a huge difference between someone who says "I might like the product, but I can't run it for my family, they're too young" and someone who says, "I can't run it for my family, it's bad." Both are exercising good judgment in terms of their kids, but the first person is approaching it with maturity, and the second person is not.
And they need products to fulfill their needs too, but not to the exclusion of those who want mature content.
In the case of HMM, James makes the right call when he edits Nick's work, and doesn't encourage an uncensored version- and yet he defends the work as it was published. The reason is that Nick is exploring themes of horror and savagery, and it's James' responsibility to make sure those themes come across, but not just for shock value.. but exploration through storytelling. That it's there for a reason, not just for novelty.
Anyway.. That’s my rambling monologue for the morning...
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In the case of HMM, James makes the right call when he edits Nick's work, and doesn't encourage an uncensored version- and yet he defends the work as it was published. The reason is that Nick is exploring themes of horror and savagery, and it's James' responsibility to make sure those themes come across, but not just for shock value.. but exploration through storytelling. That it's there for a reason, not just for novelty.
In a way, Nic is making the D&D experience *more* palatable, in some ways.
For many many years, D&D characters have wandered into humanoid's homes, butchered them, butchered their wives and kids, taken their loot and called it a day, all with a song in their hearts and a 'good' alignment written somewhere on their sheets.
In one of Nic's works, there's no question at all that these Ogres aren't 'different people.' They're monsters and killing them is absolutely the right decision to make. No Paladins arguing about whether or not we should take them prisoner, 'cause they aren't thinly-veiled metaphors for dark-skinned people, they're *monsters.*
In a way, Nic is making the D&D experience *more* palatable, in some ways.
For many many years, D&D characters have wandered into humanoid's homes, butchered them, butchered their wives and kids, taken their loot and called it a day, all with a song in their hearts and a 'good' alignment written somewhere on their sheets.
In one of Nic's works, there's no question at all that these Ogres aren't 'different people.' They're monsters and killing them is absolutely the right decision to make. No Paladins arguing about whether or not we should take them prisoner, 'cause they aren't thinly-veiled metaphors for dark-skinned people, they're *monsters.*
Excellent point!
One of the things that is truly horrific about them is the fact that they are humanoid, they do share some common traits, common language, and even some rough semblance of the same emotions (they find things funny, they get angry)... but despite that they are alien.
They don't play by the same rule book as human beings. They should be feared by common folk. That's part of the horror- these things aren't that different from us on some level, and yet they are.. and the biggest difference is on the inside.
And you make a good point about questionable PC alignments. I don't tend to want an alignment for the first couple levels because I think the Player will really decide after the group dynamics of the players have shaken out. Actually, I could do without alignment altogether, but some game mechanics hinge on and I do't try to re-write the game. Only with a paladin doesn't it seem to be a deal breaker at Level One.
Last night some friends were contemplating a small back up game for another campaign. I volunteered I could run a second Runelords game for them when they only had four players (try it again after having already done it once).. I was asked what sort of characters they might make, and one of the points I emphasized was "characters that are able to be heroic and care about others. If you're just into killing and looting, Runelords doesn't play out the same way, and I'm not sure if I want to explore how it does."
For many many years, D&D characters have wandered into humanoid's homes, butchered them, butchered their wives and kids, taken their loot and called it a day, all with a song in their hearts and a 'good' alignment written somewhere on their sheets.
Really? Because I always had the feeling that in older editions the "ecology" of monsters was pretty much ignored. There were no "tribes" but instead "warbands" full of male combatants.
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Really? Because I always had the feeling that in older editions the "ecology" of monsters was pretty much ignored. There were no "tribes" but instead "warbands" full of male combatants.
To some degree yes and to some degree no. Although fully considered ecologies capable of sustaining a fully-stocked dungeon environments were frequently ignored, they have often been lightly treated. Heck, Steading of the Hill Giant Chief and Keep on the Borderland had immature villians and goblinfraus for the players to put to the sword.
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Creative Director
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For many many years, D&D characters have wandered into humanoid's homes, butchered them, butchered their wives and kids, taken their loot and called it a day, all with a song in their hearts and a 'good' alignment written somewhere on their sheets.Really? Because I always had the feeling that in older editions the "ecology" of monsters was pretty much ignored. There were no "tribes" but instead "warbands" full of male combatants.
Many of the monsters in the 1st edition Monster Manual, particularly the giants and humanoids, included sections in their write-ups about how many of the denizens of a tribe were non-combatants or children. So the concept of an orc or hill-giant dungeon with kids and babies is not really that new to the game...