I think it is a toss-up between, Conan the Barbarian and Elric of Melnibone. There are others like every character Salvatore has written. But those two blong a the top. What do you folks think.
Well if you use D&D based books as literature - most of the characters in the few I have read.
Elric, I think I would disagree with, his magic wasn't so tough, he was personally very weak, and his sword while over the top also a dark addiction for him.
Now Tarl Cabot of the Gor books - thats a munchkin.
Allanon of Shannara - munchkin.
Though I thnk to a degree its an age specific thing - when I was younger I thought it was cool that certan characters were so tough that no one could beat them, as I grew older the level of challenge and the use of wit versus power and the characters ability to bounce back from defeat or rose to the occassion made for more admirable characters.
A character simply gifted with great strength or power was less interesting.
I've read Lord of the Rings several times when I first read it Aragorn was the hero, as I got older the hobbits were more interesting, and lately Faramir strikes me as particularly heroic - normal guy second son, not in line to rule even as a steward, passes on the ring, fights under his own power, leads from the front, faces his father, goes on to do as commanded - very strong.
Aragorn - Numenor, king, raised (and one assumes trained) by elves (in Tolkien almost angelic beings, special sword, special abilties as a birth right, etc. Noble great character - but more than human, so more than human behavior is expected.
Halflings - small but, still touched by magic, resistant to evil, wizard keeps showing up to bail them out, even touched by destiny. Great "little guys" rising to the occassion, but still, not at Faramirs level IMO.
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Hmm, anything in Gor is munchkin :P
How are we defining Munchkin for the this arguement. I mean, is Sauron a Munchkin? He has the big nasty magic items?
Is Jirel of Jory a munchkin? She has that magic resistant anger.
John Carter of Mars? He's nearly unstoppable.
Vic Wertz? He has the girl, the company and the kicking theatre system. ;-)
Not sure if any of them counts as 'fantasy' so much as authorial power-trip, but James Bond, Sherlock Holmes and Batman seem to be too damn perfect most of the time.
Bond is perfect!
How are we defining Munchkin for the this arguement. I mean, is Sauron a Munchkin? He has the big nasty magic items?
IMO, a Munchkin is someone that can wield the greatest power imaginable but can't tie their own shoes because they have no ranks in Knowledge (Commonsense). I'd call Sauron experienced (and a d***, but that's a different topic. If you want to include Science Fantasy, I'd say River from Firefly should rank up there, being able to psionicly lock into a target and shoot them dead in a single shot while having to take so many flaws that the character gets penalized at every turn. If you want to include Manga/Anime, I'd say, any main character from an adventure series. (Yes there are exceptions, but I stopped reading/watching because I got tired of munchkins.)
The Reason I put Conan at the top is he doesn't lose, I agree with Heathy in the fact that he seems to start every adventure in shackles and a loin cloth but I get the sinking feeling that he does so on purpose. So he can escape and then kill things he has no business killing and being generally munchkin-like.
Drizzt.
Don't know much about him, but he's definetly an over sized, overpowered munchkin.
Merlin from the Second Chronicles of Amber by Roger Zelazny. I have a bit of stomach flu so I don't feel like my usual long winded posts. But he's a shapeshifter, duelist, sorceror, scientist, trump artist. He makes magical computer that can teleport anywhere in the multiverse after it ascends to Godhood. Then he sicks it on Order and Chaos. He gets laid a couple times too.
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Where do we cross the line from Munchkin to Mary Sue?
Usually a munchkin is a character in a game trying to win a game. In a book there's no randomness, no chance Conan will fumble his sword unless the author wants him to. The Do Everything Well character is more of a Mary Sue.
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Thomas Covenant comes to mind. Has power, but all he does is whine about wanting to go home.
Drizzt and Elminster are no-brainers, and I agree with one poster nominating John Carter. I've been re-reading the Mars books and nothing can phase him.
If you want to dive into comics, the Wrecking Crew (villains who fight Thor a lot) come to mind - great power and they use it--to rob banks??
Belgarath, Polgara, Belgarion, Errand, the whole stinking clan of little prophesied godlets.
Every main character in Raymond E. Feist, especially Tomas and Pug.
Every Japanese teenager in their own cartoon or anime.
Chinese puppet show characters.
Kuan Gong in the Romance of the Three Kingdoms.
Raistlin Majere.
Bloody Elminster.
If one of the pre-reqs for being a munchkin is that they never lost a fight, then, yeah, Drizz't is up there. I don't think I've ever been concerned that he might fail, let alone die, in any of his books.
Raistlin isn't on that list, though. A strong breeze could kick his ass. I mean, he had 9 hit points IIRC at level 5. He just had an attitude to hide his vulnerability.
Conan lost, too. On multiple occasions. He succumbed to a vitality stealing spell, losing his kingdom to a wizard and later fled an ancient Setite vampire he realized he had no chance of beating. All in one story, the Hour of the Dragon.
If one of the pre-reqs for being a munchkin is that they never lost a fight, then, yeah, Drizz't is up there. I don't think I've ever been concerned that he might fail, let alone die, in any of his books.
Raistlin isn't on that list, though. A strong breeze could kick his ass. I mean, he had 9 hit points IIRC at level 5. He just had an attitude to hide his vulnerability.
If Raistlin isn't on the list, neither is Elminster! Haven't we already established that Raistlin would kick El to Ravenloft (and back again)?
Vlad Taltos - but he is so cool that I like him anyway
some of his munchkin friends I could do without
Daenerys Targaryen. As much as I'm a total Martin fanboy, she's practically the textbook definition of a Mary Sue/Munchkin -- A fifteen year old girl with purple eyes, silver hair, has three pet dragons, the only ones left in the world, and who has conquered everything in her path like Alexander the Great.
Karl Edward Wagner's Kane. The really munchkin thing about him is that when everything is falling apart around him, he makes sure it falls apart for absolutely everyone. If he can't win, neither does anyone else. Badass to the max. And he'd kick Conan's ass from Stygia to Hyperborea.
Kane and Harry Potter - I can't believe I forgot them - great adds!
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Daenerys Targaryen. As much as I'm a total Martin fanboy, she's practically the textbook definition of a Mary Sue/Munchkin -- A fifteen year old girl with purple eyes, silver hair, has three pet dragons, the only ones left in the world, and who has conquered everything in her path like Alexander the Great.
I would say that the most munchkin-esque character in ASoIF is Gregor Clegane - he was basically a nigh-unstoppable killing machine with no regard for human life and the desire only to kill and destroy. I've seen many, many munchkins play their characters that way.
Daenerys I wouldn't exactly call a munchkin, because if you translated her into an RPG I doubt many munchkins would want to play her. Mary Sue I think is more accurate, though she has had her share of heartache throughout the series.
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From Wikipedia:
Mary Sue, sometimes shortened simply to Sue, is a pejorative term used to describe a fictional character, either male or female (male characters are often dubbed "Gary Stu", "Marty Stu", or similar names), that is portrayed in overly idealized and clichéd ways, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as wish-fulfillment fantasies for their authors. While the label "Mary Sue" itself originates from a parody of this type of character, most characters labeled "Mary Sues" by readers are not intended by authors as such. Another definition of Mary-Sue is a character who is too perfect to be true: IE, too many positive character traits compared to actual character flaws, or being remarkably attractive in comparison to the other characters.
Most of the time the label is applied to characters in fanfic, though it can also be applied to published works.
Mary Sue's and Gary Stu's are also often (shameless) self-insertions of the author's idealized self into their work. The worst name the character after themselves. Wesley Crusher in Star Trek comes to mind, the work of the late Gene Wesley Roddenberry.
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Mary Sue's and Gary Stu's are also often (shameless) self-insertions of the author's idealized self into their work. The worst name the character after themselves. Wesley Crusher in Star Trek comes to mind, the work of the late Gene Wesley Roddenberry.
Corran Horn from the Star Wars novels is considered to be one as well. I have a tendency when DMing to throw in a Mary Sue, but they can be good as long as you don't make them super-awesome characters. Mary Sues can make good 'Obi-wans' or even 'Emperors' but very bad 'Lukes' and 'Han Solos'
I would say that the most munchkin-esque character in ASoIF is Gregor Clegane - he was basically a nigh-unstoppable killing machine with no regard for human life and the desire only to kill and destroy. I've seen many, many munchkins play their characters that way.
Daenerys I wouldn't exactly call a munchkin, because if you translated her into an RPG I doubt many munchkins would want to play her. Mary Sue I think is more accurate, though she has had her share of heartache throughout the series.
Yeah, the Mountain That Rides is the bigger muchnkin.
Dany's definitely more Mary Sue, though mostly because Martin gave her probably the most common Mary Sue physical description. I never felt like Martin was actually using her for wish fulfillment, so even though she meets most of the qualifications, she never really felt like a Mary Sue. I sure hope fat old George R. R. Martin doesn't secretly wish to be a fifteen year old girl, pet dragons or no.
And yes, Harry flippin' Potter definitly belongs on the munchkin list, and Wesley Crusher belongs on the Mary Sue list.
I sure hope fat old George R. R. Martin doesn't secretly wish to be a fifteen year old girl, pet dragons or no.Who doesn't?
Anyone who's ever been a 15-year-old girl. Hormones on overdrive, crushing self-doubt, and a body that changes every 24hrs. Oh yeah, and other 15-year-old girls. If they're being honest about it, most women in retrospect much prefer their 20's to their teens. *grin* Now being 20-something with pet dragon(s), that would be pretty damn cool.
As to the topic, I'm shocked nobody's brought up anybody from the Wheel of Time... Much as I love Mat Cauthon, he does have a special kind of sunshine coming from his rear - nothing ever goes *permanently* bad for him, and most of his character "flaws" work out to his advantage eventually.
I would disagree with Allanon from Shannara, just on the basis that everybody in the Shannara books, especially the druids, seems to pay for their power in the end - the greater the power, the crappier the end. It's one of the things that makes me keep respecting Terry Brooks as an author (and his non-Shannara books rock, btw).
And I'd add Gerald Tarrant from C.S. Friedman's Coldfire trilogy to the list. He maxed out in combat, stealth, and magic, and had nowhere left to go, but it was cool to watch/read.
Remo Williams and Chiun! Two of the biggest munchkins ever.
Papa Smurf. The old dude is never wrong about anything. It's scary.
River Tam from the Firefly series ... She'd be statted up with horrible flaws but she's superpowered.
Oh, yeah, and Summer Glau is a hottie!
Yeah, much as I love Firefly and the character of River Tam, I think the movie tried to tell too much story. It was still a good movie, but it felt like Joss Whedon was trying to tell as much of the story he never got to put into the show, IMHO. I think that River should have been a little less powerful but I think if we'd gotten to see the story play out over it's planned seven seasons her power spike would've been slower and probably not as dramatic.
And yes, she is. Especially as River.
Man, the worst of the lot have all been taken: Elminster, Harry frickin' Potter, Remo Williams (although he's amusing enough that I forgive him) and Chiung (I LOVE the book where Remo suddenly realizes that he's better than Chiung, despite the latter's attitude...), and Zelazny's Merlin (and Luke, for that matter). I'd maintain that the movie Bond is vastly more of a munchkin than Fleming's literary Bond (although the later authors' is just as bad as the movie one).
Oh, and Bugs Bunny. I hate how all the laws of physics rearrange themselves around him so that he can be more annoying. Bugs Bunny is more of a munchkin than God.
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Mary Sue's and Gary Stu's are also often (shameless) self-insertions
Ouch! That sounds painful!
of the author's idealized self into their work. The worst name the character after themselves. Wesley Crusher in Star Trek comes to mind, the work of the late Gene Wesley Roddenberry.
I'd go with Elminster. He's frighteningly Ed Greenwood-esque. Stephen King tends to self-insert (ouch, again!) quite a bit, making his characters a lot like himself (particularly in works like Misery). On one hand, they say to 'write what you know,' and obviously he knows himself pretty well by this point (and New England in general, his preferred setting), but ya think he might get out of the house every now and again. Perhaps to shop, or get the mail.
Wolverine and Drizzt, on the other hand, count as munchkins, and fan service for those with low-self-esteem, but not Mary-Sues.
... and Zelazny's Merlin (and Luke, for that matter).
Glad someone agrees with me!
And you're right about Luke. Zelazny starts off with Merlin Ultimate Twink (in the WoW sense), and then forgets about him and goes all Mary Sue on Luke/Rinaldo....
Seriously folks, these two bastards are prime for the Munchkin Hall of Fame. When you end up being Emperor of Half the Multiverse, and the Powers of Order and Chaos take a personal interest in your sex life.. and your weapon of choice is a sentient garrotte that can stretch like Plastic Man to break you out of prison... you're tipping the scales a little harder than Harry Potter.
Ah yes, how could I forget the illustrious Harry Potter? Not only does he have the adoration of most of the people who know what he is, but from the time he's eleven frickin' years old he can repeatedly defeat and/or ruin the plans of a the most powerful dark wizard ever to have existed, a feat that no one else no matter how highly trained can even come close to matching. Despite his often rude manner he manages to make friends with almost every g!+$!*n misfit he comes across, breaking rules left and right at a whim with only minor slaps on the wrists (if anything at all) from the 'authority figures' who just so happen to usually love and admire the little bastard. His friends often do a great deal of the work, setting him up to win a climactic battle through sheer dumb luck and an amazing ability to correctly guess the answer to many problems.
Sorry, rambling rant over.
Ah yes, how could I forget the illustrious Harry Potter?
Agreed.