Well hello there kids! Long time no see, I know, but hey, I've been in prison. No, no, just kidding, I haven't been in prison. I've been...IN SPACE!
Yeah.
So, it appears that our merciless SCAP campaign is about to wrap up at Lisa's place, and we'll soon be starting the RotR adventure path. Last night I rolled up a new character, hoping that I could run a nice sorcerer, and here's what I rolled:
14
13
10
9
9
8
As the ancient Egyptians used to say, this sucks. Sure, 14 in CHA, the other two in CON and DEX, but still, man, what a sickly sorcerer. Looks like we'll be playing with core rules ONLY, so that's much easier to deal with...but to be honest, I haven't read any of the RotR stuff yet (that would be cheating!) and I'm in need of some assistance setting this fellow up. So, I turn to you, the knowledgeable masses, They Who Know All...
/fawns
Any ideas how I should proceed? Feel free to apply as much cheese as you see fit, but remember, core 3.5 only, standard RotR races, I'm not opposed to playing halflings or gnomes if necessary, etc.
Let me know!
Space prison wasn't so bad. Showers ever other week, a few old magazines here and there...but what REALLY sucked was that the shivs kept floating away. Hard to get a good thrust on those suckers in zero-g...
Anything you can think of, let me know. I wanted to stillborn the poor fella, but the second one I rolled was almost as bad - two eights, two tens and two twelves! Gaah!
isn't there a rule where rerolls are allowed if the total "+"s are equal to "+1" or less, this qualifies.
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A gnome might be good – your strength is going to suck anyway, so what is another –2 hit really? Put the 10 on Con and then with the +2 bonus you’re at least getting a (minor) positive modifier in dex and con, makes you a little more survivable. And that small size helps in not getting hit as well, not to mention that the gnome’s spell like abilities give you a few extra tricks without taking up precious spell slots at low levels.
Otherwise I’d probably go human – that extra feat is nice, and with a negative modifier to Int you’re going to need all the skill points you can get. If you go for a Varisian sorcerer, you’ve got a built in reason why you’re slumming it in Sandpoint rather than out on the road – your delicate build just can’t handle the rigours of the nomadic life. Or maybe you’re a Chelaxian sorcerer – your kind aren’t well liked down there, and when you were found out, imprisoned and tortured … well, the results weren’t too kind on your body or mind. Lucky you escaped up north and have found a good place to hide out far from the empire.
You won’t be great in combat, and will be unable to take much physical punishment or even resist spells as well as some sorcerers (with that wisdom penalty), so don’t make yourself a target in combat – maybe focus on buff type spells for your companions, or perhaps illusions or enchantments? Those flashy damage dealing spells just make you a target.
Feat-wise, maybe Spell Focus if you plan to “specialise.” Toughness to boost your survivability a little?
Last night I rolled up a new character, hoping that I could run a nice sorcerer, and here's what I rolled:
14
13
10
9
9
8As the ancient Egyptians used to say, this sucks. Sure, 14 in CHA, the other two in CON and DEX, but still, man, what a sickly sorcerer.
your rolls are equivalent to a 15-point game, commoner npcs in the DMG/MM get higher stats. I'd ask for a 25-point buy or something, because those stats are going to hold you back.
In sorcerer terms, you only get two skill points per level +/- Int modifier. Unless you play a human, you'll be looking at either 1. having couple of skills at less than max rank, or having 1 skill at max rank. Unless you've got another arcane caster in your party, or a skill-monkey, you're in a very tight spot skill wise.
In terms of weapons, you should be able to get by with a crossbow, since there's no str penalty for using one.
With a low dex, I'd avoid going for ranged touch attack spells, since you get so few, and focus on no-save spells, since your spell save dcs will also be low.
I'd personally take one of the 9s to Con, as you can probably offset it with False Life.
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A sorcerer, eh? It all depends upon what sort of sorcerer you're interested in playing.
With the numbers you rolled up you've got the right stats picked out and you have to dump the rest. You're not going to be going toe to toe with anything. So forget about the elven fighter/sorcerer. It's not happening.
For a sorcerer, you're limiting yourself to a couple key roles because of the lack of spell variety. That's ok, and can be quite fun. I really narrow those down to the two basics - blaster and controller. As a sorcerer you're really going to be leaving the buffing to the cleric until later levels.
I personally am glad to hear you mention Gnomes and Halflings as I think as far as crunchy bits and role-playing those can be the best wizards and sorcerers. Both those races have the nice bonus to AC, especially when it comes to large size creatures.
If you want to go the blaster route then the Halfling can be your guy. The bonus to Dex helps with ranged attacks and with your crossbow when you run out of power. You mention the core books so talk to your DM to see if the Tallfellow Halflings from the MM are available as their skills are better suited to a mage character. (Search/Spot/Listen vs. Climb/Jump/Move Silently).
If you want to go the controller route then a Gnome Illusionist/Enchanter can be quite fun. You get the bonus spells and Illusion DC from race and the high CHA helps with the Enchantments. Plus I always feel it fits more with the "Fey" aspect of Gnomes more so then some of the "tinker" versions. Plus if you name your character Gnigel or Gnorman you've got hours of endless puns available.
As far as Feats go, here again it depends upon what sort of mage you want to play. For the blaster the Point Blank Shot tree can be useful plus again it helps with your non-magic combat (since you're never going to be doing anything except ranged weapons, if you're smart anyway!) For the illusion/enchantment specialist Spell Focus and the bonus to DC can be critical.
Just some ideas off the top of my head. Hope this helps!
-Pete
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Well hello there kids! Long time no see, I know, but hey, I've been in prison. No, no, just kidding, I haven't been in prison. I've been...IN SPACE!
Yeah.
So, it appears that our merciless SCAP campaign is about to wrap up at Lisa's place, and we'll soon be starting the RotR adventure path. Last night I rolled up a new character, hoping that I could run a nice sorcerer, and here's what I rolled:
14
13
10
9
9
8
I do believe by core that that would be a re-roll
Sorry Phil, but I am afraid those stats are simply too low to play a Shoanti sorcerer. (I presume that like most ex-space cons your heart was set on it.)
If you were to play a Varisian, however, and your DM is allowing the regional feats as bonus feats, there's a decent synergy with the Varisian Tatoo feat for sorcerers. It will help get those DCs up and give an extra 0 level spell-like ability to keep your PC contributing. Add Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus and your level 1 spell has a respectable DC 16. (Though that's a big feat commitment.)
Besides, as a Varisian you can apparently wield fashion accessories.
*feeling the need to waste bandwidth Rhavin reiterates past comment*
according to the Rules as Written, you may reroll your stats freely.
otherwise... have fun with a VERY squishy character
given that it was just as bad he is allowed further rerolls untill the stats are raised above the lowest requirements, this is stated in the rules; each time it resets... if I rolled sets that total +1 or less every time I can keep rerolling untill I hit that magic +2 or higher.
Yeah, it's the rules-lawyer in me but they are the rules nonetheless.
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*feeling the need to waste bandwidth Rhavin reiterates past comment*
according to the Rules as Written, you may reroll your stats freely.
otherwise... have fun with a VERY squishy character
Rerolling (pg 8) "If your scores are too low, you may scrap them and roll all six scores again. Your scores are considered too low if the sum of your modifiers (before adjustments because of race) is 0 or lower, or if you highest score is 13 or lower.
So, 14(+2), 13(+1), 10(+0), 9(-1), 9(-1), 8(-1) == 0
He's good, no reroll.
Besides, sometimes it's fun to play squishy.
-Pete
Rerolling (pg 8) "If your scores are too low, you may scrap them and roll all six scores again. Your scores are considered too low if the sum of your modifiers (before adjustments because of race) is 0 or lower, or if you highest score is 13 or lower.
So, 14(+2), 13(+1), 10(+0), 9(-1), 9(-1), 8(-1) == 0
He's good, no reroll.
it is equal to "0 or lower" and thus eligible to a reroll. the statement about the highest being 13 is also an "or" statement.
yeah, it can be fun to play a squishy character but my group has found pathfinder tobe unkind to such characters.
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Your scores are considered too low if the sum of your modifiers (before adjustments because of race) is 0 or lower, or if you highest score is 13 or lower.
So, 14(+2), 13(+1), 10(+0), 9(-1), 9(-1), 8(-1) == 0
He's good, no reroll.
'0 or lower,' according to what you quoted. This would be the 0 part, it seems, so he's qualified to reroll.
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I imagine that Phil is aware of the rules on re-rolling poor stats.
I’m guessing that he’s either relishing the challenge of playing a squishy character, or Lisa has restricted the number of re-rolls to one (which he’s already done), or is running a low powered game with a stat generation method that results in lower than standard rolls (the fact that they’re restricted to core only may support this idea).
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Your scores are considered too low if the sum of your modifiers (before adjustments because of race) is 0 or lower, or if you highest score is 13 or lower.
So, 14(+2), 13(+1), 10(+0), 9(-1), 9(-1), 8(-1) == 0
He's good, no reroll.
'0 or lower,' according to what you quoted. This would be the 0 part, it seems, so he's qualified to reroll.
Yah, I always screwed up that less than or equal to in calculus too. :-)
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Make a character, get it killed.
Simplest route IMHO would be an elven ranger. Your next character can be your sorcerer. Although I don't believe in this kind of gameplay I'd go with something like this...
STR 9
DEX 14
CON 8
INT 13
WIS 10
CHA 9
After adjustments...
STR 9
DEX 16
CON 6
INT 13
WIS 10
CHA 9
This character suffer from bad health as a baby that's followed him into adulthood. Because of it, he's weak... hence range combat over melee. His bad health often causes people to stay away from him, hence the low charisma.
Because of the character's health problems, he never really got out, but he's toward the end of his life (263+) and he wants to see the world.
More adjustments...
STR 7
DEX 14
CON 4
INT 14
WIS 11
CHA 10
He'll likely die quickly if anyone gets close, but it'll be interesting and will still allow you to go with your sorcerer later if this one doesn't work out. :)
If the character manages to survive I'd put all his ability modifiers into WIS so we can eventually cast spells. ;)
The folks around here have had some good suggestions but your original idea isn't bad. Put your highest score where it will do the most good and tally-ho.
Just make the most of every roleplaying situation you can. I'd even suggest dressing in leather straps and spiking your hair up to pay a little homage to Hennet. That just screams bonus xp.
If you dont like the roleplay portion of a sorcerer then I'd suggest putting your head in a metal bucket and having someone hit it with a baseball bat because that is how the game mechanics are going to treat your poor fetus of a sorcerer.
If you do end up sticking with these scores, please give us all updates as to how an average Joe does in Rise of the Rune Lords. If he makes it out of the gate I predict some really good stories full of win.
Any ideas how I should proceed?
Yeesh... Those are some harsh scores.
First off, I would say avoid Dwarves and Half Orcs as your race.
None of the core races get a boost to Charisma... So I would do something a bit different.
Gnome, with the 13 in Charisma, 14 in Dex, 10 in Wis, and 8 in Strength.
I can almost hear some of you thinking foul thoughts about my suggestion. ;-)
This would give you stats as follows:
Str: 6, Dex: 14, Con: 11, Int: 9, Wis: 10, Cha: 13.
This will have the least painful impact on your saves, and give you the best spread for AC and HP's for a sorcerer.
If you are confident you'll be able to get a Charisma booster by around 12th level, you could put your first stat bump into Con. But even if you don't, you will need to get a Charisma boost item by around 16th level. Either that, or plan on multi classing.
Actually, as a Gnome, picking up a level or two of Bard might do you some good... Let me check something.
Hmm... Not much reason to go above 2nd or 3rd level... But YMMV.
You are a braver player than I if you try... I salute you!
One of my favorite PCs (Gek the Incompetent, a wizard of few virtues) had stats just as bad as that, and he was a blast to play.
Dare to be inept!
Welcome back Phil. We have missed you. As for your new character... ~hands you a tee shirt with CANNON FODDER written on it~ Best of luck.
This is why I don't like rolling for stats. :P
My advice: Ask for new scores. The chorus sang it already: The rules support it, as those aren't hero material stats.
Other than that, go for sorcerer! That way, the character won't survive his first serious encounter, and you can make a new one.
I have no problems with "flawed" characters, but this is too much.
Let's see:
Str 8, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 9, Wis 9, Cha 14
A weak sorcerer is nothing new, but your AC is going to suck even more than usual. A slightly higher con would be nice, too, for a couple of extra HP. Int will mean few HP (exactly 2 for a human sorcerer)., Wis low will save (to complement the crappy fort and ref), and 14 as your casting stat isn't that good, either.
You can switch around a bit, but in the end, but your survival prospectives aren't going to change.
Gnome or halfling are the best choices for these poor scores (or keep rolling until you get a +1 or better total ability modifier with at least one score over 13). Gnome 6 Str, 13 Dex, 12 Con, 9 Int, 9 Wis, 14 Cha. Halfling 6 Str, 12 Dex, 13 Con, 9 Int, 9 Wis, 14 Cha. In both cases, you will be very bad at melee and have poor skills; stay in the back and concentrate on spells and missle combat. You might do slightly better as a bard than a sorcerer (more skill points, but weaker spells).
Bah, nay sayers, all o' ya! I says if yer gonna go low and Core books only, go as low as you can go:
Kobold Sorcerer.
Before Adjustments
Str 8, Dex 13, Con 10, Int 9, Wis 8, Cha 14
After Adjustment
Str 4, Dex 15, Con 8, Int 9, Wis 8, Cha 14
Yeah, you'd have crap for Hp (3 if your DM does max at 1st level), and godsforbid if you ever got grappled. But, your AC would be pretty durn high for a 1st level caster (+2 Dex, +1 size, +1 natural) and your spell saves will be fairly decent. You'd have to pump all 4 of your skill points into Concentration to make sure that you wouldn't incur any attacks of opportunity while casting. And, as an added bonus, no one in Sandpoint would miss your scaly backside when you croaked! :-)
I imagine that Phil is aware of the rules on re-rolling poor stats.
I’m guessing that he’s either relishing the challenge of playing a squishy character, or Lisa has restricted the number of re-rolls to one (which he’s already done), or is running a low powered game with a stat generation method that results in lower than standard rolls (the fact that they’re restricted to core only may support this idea).
I haven't asked Her Who Must Be Obeyed yet about rerolling, although I DID do three total sets of rolls on Tuesday night. Jeremy was sitting to my right, he can vouch for the squishiness of the first set. If she allows it, I can use the next set, which IIRC was a +2 total. I'll ask and find out!
Oh, and for those keeping score at home I'm no longer on the Paizo payroll, as evidenced by the lack of "Paizo Sales Manager" next to my name above. I still do some contract grunt work for the folks from time to time, and I still go to Lisa's every Tuesday for D&D, and I'm buddies with everyone in the building still...but alas, I am no longer a true Paizonian. Only a poser, floating in space...
Welcome back Phil. We have missed you. As for your new character... ~hands you a tee shirt with CANNON FODDER written on it~ Best of luck.
Ooooh, glee! Free clothes!!
/happy_dance
*runs and glomps Phil*
We've missed youuuuuuuuuuuuU! *gives him a cookie*
Wow, free clothing (just noticed these red rings painted on the back, that's very stylish...), now cookies and hugs...
A guy could get used to hanging out around here.
Well, crapola. I read the wrong list, and posted the wrong stats when I made this post yesterday. I hang my head in shame.
Seriously. I suck.
The REAL stats are:
15
14
14
9
9
8
total +3
So not nearly as chock-full-o'-FAIL as the first numbers I posted. But not much better, either. I really like the gnome or kobold ideas, those would be much fun to roleplay :-)
So, tweak at will!
The REAL stats are: 15, 14, 14, 9, 9, 8.
I really like the gnome or kobold ideas, those would be much fun to roleplay :-) So, tweak at will!
Those are just fine for a gnome sorcerer! I'd go Str 8 (becomes 6), Dex 14, Con 14 (becomes 16), Int 9, Wis 9, Cha 15. Because, really, if you enter a gnome sorcerer in melee your Int is less than his 9.
Your AC and hp will be fine. Your Cha is starting at the level an NPC with the elite array would, so that's not bad. Your low Int and Wis (and consequently low skills and Listen and Spot mods) can be attributed to living in a burrow for most of your life: a condition that makes it exceptionally hard to broaden your horizons, so to speak.
Granted, I personally would swap Int and Cha and be an obnoxious gnome wizard, but YMMV. Lots of people like sorcerers.
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Well, crapola. I read the wrong list, and posted the wrong stats when I made this post yesterday. I hang my head in shame.
Seriously. I suck.
The REAL stats are:
15
14
14
9
9
8total +3
So not nearly as chock-full-o'-FAIL as the first numbers I posted. But not much better, either. I really like the gnome or kobold ideas, those would be much fun to roleplay :-)
So, tweak at will!
If blasting is your speed, then why not give the kobold a whirl? Str 4, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 9, Wis 9, Cha 15, first level feat Point Blank Shot. That's (+3 Dex, +1 size, +1 PBS) +5 for your ranged touch attacks, and (+3 Dex, +1 size, +1 natural, +4 armor) AC 19 with mage armor up. You'd even have 5 hp! What's not to like?
Well, crapola. I read the wrong list, and posted the wrong stats when I made this post yesterday. I hang my head in shame.
Seriously. I suck.
The REAL stats are:
15
14
14
9
9
8total +3
So not nearly as chock-full-o'-FAIL as the first numbers I posted. But not much better, either. I really like the gnome or kobold ideas, those would be much fun to roleplay :-)
So, tweak at will!
I vote halfling sorc, stats, after racial mods:
str: 6 dex: 17 con: 9 int: 14 wis: 9 cha: 14use a sling or crossbow to start with, halfing racial saving throw mod negates fort and will negative modifiers, your reflex and initial ac (with mage armor) are fairly good, you get decent skills (4 per level).
Now, for something completely different:
Varisian battle sorc (using the Battle Sorceror variant in the SRD)
str: 8 dex: 14 con: 9 int: 14 wis: 9 cha: 15
Feats at first level: point blank shot, precise shot, bonus RoRL feat: Varisian tatoo.
*or* if you prefer a melee weapon: Weapon Finesse: rapier/any light or one handed weapon you can finesse; varisian tatoo; and any other 1 feat you fancy (something to improve saves, spellcasting or ac)
skills: concentration 4 ranks, knowledge arcana 4 ranks, spell craft 4 ranks, intimidate 4 ranks, final craft or profession at 4 ranks or something cross-class at 2 ranks.
Use a crossbow and pick any one light or one handed melee weapon you fancy.
Wear a chain or hide shirt. You get d8 hit dice, so even with a -1 con, you're not quite as squishy. ( ac 16 w/ chain shirt + dex, 20 w/ shield, 7 hp assuming maxx at first level)
You get all the skill points a sorcerer could want, you can wear light armor, which in addition to your dex and a shield spell, will make you quite difficult to hit at low levels, and your cleric progression BAB makes you a fair combatant, especially if you go with the ranged feats (point blank, precise shot) and focus on spells that require a ranged touch attack.
RP something brash, bold, clever, and thanks to your dex score, a little bit lucky.
your rolls are equivalent to a 15-point game, commoner npcs in the DMG/MM get higher stats. I'd ask for a 25-point buy or something, because those stats are going to hold you back.
Yep!
Point Buy is the only way to go.
The REAL stats are: 15, 14, 14, 9, 9, 8
So not nearly as chock-full-o'-FAIL as the first numbers I posted. But not much better, either. I really like the gnome or kobold ideas, those would be much fun to roleplay :-)
So, tweak at will!
OK, those are much better stats. Nothing spectacular, but they are still pretty serviceable.
Juts like many others, my suggestion would also be a gnome for race. As far as a caster is concerned, hit points are more important than AC. For defense you should be relying more on miss chances etc than AC anyway.
I would actually be tempted to put the 14 in INT, and the 9 in Dex as well. I just like skill points that much.
But whatever you do, you really should focus on spells that don't allow a save, or have a significant effect even if they make their save. Unfortunately, most of these require an attack roll, which probably means you do need to put the 14 into Dex. Being small sized also helps with this. Just make sure you pour your measly 1 skill point a level into concentration, you want to make sure you get your spells off when everything goes pair-shaped and you end up in melee.
I would be tempted to focus on summoning, and hide behind invisibility while your summoned creatures to the hard work for you. Prevents you from being a target, and allows you to contribute. If you do concentrate on summoning, it is courtesy to the other players to have your critters statted up beforehand.
As for spells, at first level I would probably go with Grease, and then either Ray of Enfeeblement, Enlarge Person, or Feather Fall. At third I would pick up Magic Missile for your third first level spell, as by that time it is starting to do some damage. But you will have to resign yourself to using a crossbow in the meantime.
CEO
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I would be tempted to focus on summoning, and hide behind invisibility while your summoned creatures to the hard work for you. Prevents you from being a target, and allows you to contribute. If you do concentrate on summoning, it is courtesy to the other players to have your critters statted up beforehand.
Phil's current character is a druid who is focused on summoning, so I would like his character to steer way away from that, because I want to see something new from all of the players. :)
-Lisa
The squishy inept roleplaying-heavy option is still available.
Goblin sorcerer: Str 7, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 9, Cha 13
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I think playing a Kobold would be loads of fun. The ability scores there aren't bad, and certainly good enough to have a survivable character. The other option as a socerer that I think would be great is Human and take the Varisian Tatoo feat. You might consider taking Toughness at least once early on to help your survivability as well. If you are inclined to play a blaster I would suggest the following build.
Human (Varisian) Sorcerer 1
Init: +2 Speed: 30 ft
HP: 9 (4 base, +2 con, +3 toughness)
AC: 12 (10 flat footed, 12 touch, 16 with Mage Armor)
Fort: +2 Ref: +2 Will: +1
Str 8
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 9
Wis 9
Cha 15
Spells Known: (CL 1, 2 with Evocations)
0 - Ray of Frost, Detect Magic, Read Magic, Acid Splash
1 - Mage Armor, Magic Missile
Spell Like Abilities:
1/day - Dancing Lights
Skills: Concentration +6, Spellcraft +5
Feats: Toughness, Spell Focus (Evocation), Varisian Tatoo (Evocation)
I am assuming that you receive one bonus feat from those listed in the Rise of the Runelords players guide. I think that if you are going strictly core, that taking Toughness at first level makes a ton of sense for any caster. The hardest thing about playing a sorcerer or wizard in any campaign, but especially the AP's is keeping them alive to see later levels where their spells level the playing field more. I would invest in a Wisdom boosting item very early on to negate the penalty to will saves. As an alternative to Evocation, focusing on enchantment is an interesting way to go, in which case you would change your feats to focus on that and swap out Magic Missile for Sleep at first level. The 9 hp may seem excessive, but in my experience Sorcerers can never have enough HP at first level.
Hope this helps.
I would be tempted to focus on summoning, and hide behind invisibility while your summoned creatures to the hard work for you. Prevents you from being a target, and allows you to contribute. If you do concentrate on summoning, it is courtesy to the other players to have your critters statted up beforehand.
Phil's current character is a druid who is focused on summoning, so I would like his character to steer way away from that, because I want to see something new from all of the players. :)
-Lisa
Hey, as long as they don't name their summoned beasts and teach them to say their own names, you're fine.
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Contributor
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You, sir, have set yourself up for one of the greatest concepts ever! Here's how it goes:
First, put that 8 into Int. Next select a Raven familiar. Have the raven speak Common. Now, and here's the greatest part of all, claim to play the raven!
Once you hit 5th level, the raven's just as smart as you. At 7th, it's even smarter! How great is that.
And then you can speak down to your character- "Oh him, he's just here to blast stuff, maybe use the odd utility spell, you know soreceror stuff..."
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Contributor
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You, sir, have set yourself up for one of the greatest concepts ever! Here's how it goes:
First, put that 8 into Int. Next select a Raven familiar. Have the raven speak Common. Now, and here's the greatest part of all, claim to play the raven!
Once you hit 5th level, the raven's just as smart as you. At 7th, it's even smarter! How great is that.
And then you can speak down to your character- "Oh him, he's just here to blast stuff, maybe use the odd utility spell, you know soreceror stuff..."
That is beautiful. I'm going to play that character some day.
I'm really leaning toward the gnome sorc kit, it seems like fun. Plus, I think gnome is the only core race I've never played before in D&D. It should be fun to put on the blue coat and red pointy hat, and the minis are just SO cute!
Err, right.
You, sir, have set yourself up for one of the greatest concepts ever! Here's how it goes:
First, put that 8 into Int. Next select a Raven familiar. Have the raven speak Common. Now, and here's the greatest part of all, claim to play the raven!
Once you hit 5th level, the raven's just as smart as you. At 7th, it's even smarter! How great is that.
And then you can speak down to your character- "Oh him, he's just here to blast stuff, maybe use the odd utility spell, you know soreceror stuff..."
That rocks as an idea!