As written in 3.5e, a pit fiend is also a one encounter opponent for a group of 20th level characters, consuming 20% of the PCs resources (or so they say). Didn't Monte Cook say in a "Dungeoncraft" article that this translates into 3-4 rounds of combat, and it only gets worse; a few levels more and the un-advanced pit fiend becomes essentially a speed bump to the PCs.
I understand Nic's concerns, but if I'm reading him correctly, it seems he is concerned with the pit fiend's seeming lack of abilities outside of combat that would make him an appropriate mastermind villain, and I see his point based solely on the MM write-up (though, to be fair, it does have some impressive social skills in 4e). I have to wonder if this is where the rumored ritual system will come in? If magical effects like gates/teleportation, divination, resurrection, and wishes fall into this province, and the pit fiend has access to some or all of these abilities, I would say that the problem is solved. More remains to be seen.
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Why do you think Pit Fiends are chicks?
And why would a level 21 ally be worth 25 points of damage? I could see the destruction oriented demons blowing each other up, but the devils? Either way, it's pointless.
I dunno. Imagine that the fighter drops. He ain't quite dead and his buds step in to cover him. Just fling an ally at him and POP! Dead fighter.
You could backwards infer that "5" damage means 2d4 damage, and
"15" damage means 3d10 damage, those being roughly the average roll result of those kind of dice.
(heh) look at me. Fixing 4e allready. ;)Wanna bet on that being a typo and not appearing in the MM that way. I bet this is just a leftover from monster creation and that we see it down the road as 2d4.
Cutting out dice-rolling where possible makes the game quicker and simpler. I think it might end up staying that way in the first 4E print-run.
The spined devil 4e DDM card released back in November used the same static damage system for recurring damage, so I think you are correct.
As written in 3.5e, a pit fiend is also a one encounter opponent for a group of 20th level characters, consuming 20% of the PCs resources (or so they say). Didn't Monte Cook say in a "Dungeoncraft" article that this translates into 3-4 rounds of combat, and it only gets worse; a few levels more and the un-advanced pit fiend becomes essentially a speed bump to the PCs.
I understand Nic's concerns, but if I'm reading him correctly, it seems he is concerned with the pit fiend's seeming lack of abilities outside of combat that would make him an appropriate mastermind villain, and I see his point based solely on the MM write-up (though, to be fair, it does have some impressive social skills in 4e). I have to wonder if this is where the rumored ritual system will come in? If magical effects like gates/teleportation, divination, resurrection, and wishes fall into this province, and the pit fiend has access to some or all of these abilities, I would say that the problem is solved. More remains to be seen.
If the pit fiend can use rituals that would go a long way to mollifying my initial displeasure.
That matches my feelings about this thug version of a pit fiend.
I see nothing really leader about this. It has a minor buff of what it summons, it can completely give up attacking to move it's minions, it has a minor debuff aura, and a major debuff attack. That makes it a leader? Is that what a 26th level PC leader is going to be like? I sure hope not.
I think there is some confusion about what the tactical role of a leader is in 4e and what we would commonly call a "leader." A leader's tactical purpose is to manipulate the placement of allies, as well as buff them, not lead them in the coventional sense of the word. Its interesting that the stat block has pit fiends classified as Solider (Leader); it has two roles, but the Leader role seems secondary.
Also, assuming we go by the SWSE type of character development, a 26th level PC leader would have 13 powers and 13 feats (can someone with a copy of the SWSE rules verify my math, it may be a bit different, but I remember alternating feats and class ability selections per level).
I dunno. Imagine that the fighter drops. He ain't quite dead and his buds step in to cover him. Just fling an ally at him and POP! Dead fighter.Why do you think Pit Fiends are chicks?
And why would a level 21 ally be worth 25 points of damage? I could see the destruction oriented demons blowing each other up, but the devils? Either way, it's pointless.
Or fling a fireball at him. Just sayin.
If the pit fiend can use rituals that would go a long way to mollifying my initial displeasure.
The DC 30 Religion check in the write-up certainly implies that they do.
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Hmmmm....
We know that the Pit Fiend is level 26. We know he is not designated as "solo" so presumably there will be 1 per PC.
For this encounter not to take ridiculous amounts of time, PCs are likely able to dish out quite a bit of damage at level 26.
My guess is that while 25 damage for blowin' up an allied devil seems paltry, I wouldn't be surprised if a PC could one-shot the level 21 devils if they wanted to. Or perhaps the level 21 devil will have a hard time doing any significant damage to the PC. In fact, I think this is more likely, thus the "flanking and fear" tactic the Pit Fiend does with the toughest PC and 2 of his allies. He HAS to fear and move them to flank to be effective, otherwise they are probably just in the way. So...slide and boom.
Hmmmm....
We know that the Pit Fiend is level 26. We know he is not designated as "solo" so presumably there will be 1 per PC.
The pit fiend is designated as an elite monster, so it is the equivalent of two standard monsters.
The 4E Pit Fiend seems at least interesting.
Reading the previous posts, I would to comment about the ability to blow up allies. Considering the fact that the rounds of an encounter might be less than ten, it seems logical to me that they the Pit Fiend will start blowing allies from the very beginnings.
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Or fling a fireball at him. Just sayin.I dunno. Imagine that the fighter drops. He ain't quite dead and his buds step in to cover him. Just fling an ally at him and POP! Dead fighter.Why do you think Pit Fiends are chicks?
And why would a level 21 ally be worth 25 points of damage? I could see the destruction oriented demons blowing each other up, but the devils? Either way, it's pointless.
Yes, but it is far more evil to make one of those fireballs your least favorite lackey.
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Some thoughts:
1) The Stat Block seems very easy to read and I could use the Pit Fiend without referring to other Books.
2) The Pit Fiend seems, for a Level 26 Monster that is supposed to be high in the hierachy of Hell very dull to play for the DM. There seems to be no variance to the things he can do. He is basically a Melee Monster with some special abilities.
3) As I do not have an idea how many hp PCs in this level will have, i calculated how long it would take for two Pit Fiends to kill each other. Excluding summoning and only using their melee attacks they would need an average of 30 round to fight it out.
3a) What me might learn from this Stat Block and the previous Dragon encounter example (sorry nor link): Combat will go much faster for the DM but it will take a lot more rounds to fight it out.
I do not know yet how my feelings are to this. I mean a combat can get dull after the 10th round. Especially for the DM as he uses the same tactics over and over again for the Pit Fiend.
4) Exploding Monsters. This is a surprising idea (or at leats was until now). But I see this ability more as demonic as devilish. Mechanics wise, the Pit Fiend trades the chance for Damage each round to a one time fixed damage. As I can not say if the summoned allies have a chance to damage the PCs I do not know how this trade of will work. But as a guess I would say, robbing me of allies (even if they are only a nuisance) is not a smart move.
I for my part rather like to use complex monsters with more than one card in their sleve to constantly surprise the Players. Even if I have to prepare a lot beforehand. It is fun for me as DM to see the shock on the players' faces if the monster does something unexpected.
Sure, I can add some of these gadgets to the Pit Fiend, but wouldn't that run contrary to the simplification idea again?
All in all I am rather underwhelmed by this Monster.
Some thoughts:
1) The Stat Block seems very easy to read and I could use the Pit Fiend without referring to other Books.
2) The Pit Fiend seems, for a Level 26 Monster that is supposed to be high in the hierachy of Hell very dull to play for the DM. There seems to be no variance to the things he can do. He is basically a Melee Monster with some special abilities.
I for my part rather like to use complex monsters with more than one card in their sleve to constantly surprise the Players. Even if I have to prepare a lot beforehand. It is fun for me as DM to see the shock on the players' faces if the monster does something unexpected.
Sure, I can add some of these gadgets to the Pit Fiend, but wouldn't that run contrary to the simplification idea again?
All in all I am rather underwhelmed by this Monster.
Someone pointed this out at during the ENWorld discussion, and I think it is useful reminder. Unlike the 3.5e encounter design system, 4e presupposes multiple monsters. While it appears that you can customize individual monsters, the easiest way to add variety to an encounter is not to add combat abilities to a single opponent, but to introduce additional monsters with different roles and abilities (each one as simple or simpler than the pit fiend to run).
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Someone pointed this out at during the ENWorld discussion, and I think it is useful reminder. Unlike the 3.5e encounter design system, 4e presupposes multiple monsters. While it appears that you can customize individual monsters, the easiest way to add variety to an encounter is not to add combat abilities to a single opponent, but to introduce additional monsters with different roles and abilities (each one as simple or simpler than the pit fiend to run).
Hmm, that is the problem with roles for ME. The Pit Fiend has a certain role and can never be something different.
After the first encounter the magic wears off and the PCs know what to expect.Even mixing and matching Pitty with other monsters won't make him more interesting to fight or to use as a DM.
That is what I fear: Monsters are so easy to use and have their predifined role. So they are only once. Afterwards they become uninteresting.
See, in 3rd even the common goblin could pack a few Barbarian levels and therfore a punch that the players did not expect.
In 4th this is not so easy.
Monsters will become easy to analyse and carfty players will build defeat type X monster suites.
I hope I am wrong with my fears.
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During previous discussions of monster design (related to later versions of the 3.5 MMs), the design team has pretty much said that they expect most monsters to only last about five rounds, so they just need "five cool things" to do before they perish.
I've seen this philosophy before; it was one of the guiding lights to 3.5's simplification of some of the more complicated 3.0 creatures.
I think it a nod towards war-gaming, a turn away from role-playing verisimmilitude, and a step in a direction I don't want to go.
From a meta-game aspect, yes, the Pit Fiend exists as a challenge the DM creates to oppose the player characters. In that context, it only "exists" for five rounds.
If they choose to fight it. And if they win.
From the in-game perspective, the Pit Fiend has been around for perhaps a millenium. It has a lot of other centuries-long schemes going on, diplomatic overtures to all manner of potential allies and future lackeys, and so on.
When the development team simplified the marilith for 3.5, one of their justifications for stripping out something like her animate dead spell-like ability was that they didn't want her animating dead things in combat, but wanted to focus on those kewl six arms of desctruction.
Well, in combat, yeah, concentrate on those attacks all you like, but once combat is over, is reanimating the corpses of falled foes something that fits into a marilith's attitudes and goals? (I'd argue yes: the multiple arms, all holding weapons, suggest a marilith would be interested in using fallen foes as additional "arms" to weild in battle.)
Of course, if you're arranging a happy little delve for Gen-Con, or writing an RPGA module for pre-gens, you don't have to worry about what a monster does out of combat, because they wait around in 20'-by-30' rooms until thei hear somebody walking down the hall; because they only exist for about five combat rounds.
Hmm, that is the problem with roles for ME. The Pit Fiend has a certain role and can never be something different.
After the first encounter the magic wears off and the PCs know what to expect.
Even mixing and matching Pitty with other monsters won't make him more interesting to fight or to use as a DM.That is what I fear: Monsters are so easy to use and have their predifined role. So they are only once. Afterwards they become uninteresting.
See, in 3rd even the common goblin could pack a few Barbarian levels and therfore a punch that the players did not expect.
In 4th this is not so easy.
Monsters will become easy to analyse and carfty players will build defeat type X monster suites.I hope I am wrong with my fears.
One thing which has been mentioned is that there will be multiple variations upon a basic monster in the Monster Manual. So when the group encounters a Hobgoblin or a Gnoll, they won't immediately say "Oh, a gnoll. It's got 2 HD and a 25% chance of being accompanied by a Flind." So instead the gnoll blocking their path might have a soldier role and waiting to soak up damage delivered to him or he might be a striker, preparing to lead the group into a trap.
I don't think the roles are quite so iron-clad as everyone is thinking they might be.
Also, something we might yet see about Spell-Like Abilities: All Devils may have access to some and they are presented prior to the Devil section of the Monster's Manual.
Edit: Also, when we're talking about how it seems like a waste of resources and foolish to sacrifice minions, what if one of the Devils the Pit Fiend can summon has a special ability to explode when reduced to 0 hit points, perhaps for 2d10+5 Acid damage? Suddenly that 7-25 damage is a more respectable 14-50, with an average of 30 instead of 15 and able to hit two elements instead of one. Just tossing the idea out there.
Hmm, that is the problem with roles for ME. The Pit Fiend has a certain role and can never be something different.
After the first encounter the magic wears off and the PCs know what to expect.
Even mixing and matching Pitty with other monsters won't make him more interesting to fight or to use as a DM.
Well, that's not completely true. Based on statements from the designers, you will be able to customize monsters by adding class levels and by other means (the 4e version of templates and advancement). Also, in theory, you could rebuild a select monster with a different role, but I have no idea how that would work other than the stat ranges would be different.
However, I can easily make this same statement about any version of the game as it doesn't take a lot of effort for players to memorize the abilities of a pit fiend in a general sense (or any other monster for that matter), especially its heavy hitters (watch out for that quickened fireball!)
As for being an interesting repeat encounter, I think this remains to be seen. Beyond customization, different combinations of other monsters could lead to very exciting or dynamic combats. Hell, the pit fiend as written virtually guarantees that the PCs will be moving around trying to avoid auras, teleporting minions, and immolating devils.
From the in-game perspective, the Pit Fiend has been around for perhaps a millenium. It has a lot of other centuries-long schemes going on, diplomatic overtures to all manner of potential allies and future lackeys, and so on.
But what does this have to do with its combat stats? I don't see anything in 4e that would preclude a pit fiend from partaking in centuries long schemes or having allies/lackeys (in fact, it seems to have relatively high social skills, in 4e terms)
Right, but why is "saving throw 2" listed on the sheet? What does that do?I'm also unclear on this new saving throw mechanic. Anyone know how that works?My understanding is its like AC in that attackers roll against it with their attacks to overcome, ie affect, the target.
Based on the DDM 2.0 rulebook, a saving throw is made at the end of a creature's turn to end an ongoing effect. It's a straight d20 roll for each ongoing effect on the creature: 1-9 Effect continues, 10-19 Effect ends, 20 all effects allowing saves end. I would guess the Pit Fiend's "Saving Throws +2" would add 2 to this d20 roll.
The spined devil dude has a stat at 19 (+7). The PF has one at 20(+18). So there are at least two types of stats?
I dunno. Imagine that the fighter drops. He ain't quite dead and his buds step in to cover him. Just fling an ally at him and POP! Dead fighter.Why do you think Pit Fiends are chicks?
And why would a level 21 ally be worth 25 points of damage? I could see the destruction oriented demons blowing each other up, but the devils? Either way, it's pointless.
But... Dying's not fun, right?
I dunno. Maybe it's just me, but this doesn't sound a like the "Duke of Hell" I've come to expect when I hear "pit fiend".
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But... Dying's not fun, right?I dunno. Imagine that the fighter drops. He ain't quite dead and his buds step in to cover him. Just fling an ally at him and POP! Dead fighter.Why do you think Pit Fiends are chicks?
And why would a level 21 ally be worth 25 points of damage? I could see the destruction oriented demons blowing each other up, but the devils? Either way, it's pointless.
Dying isn't fun in the random bang-your-dead 3.5 method. If the PCs are actually fighting a pit fiend then (in my mind) they have hit the climax of a story and trying to kill them is very much in order.
Dying isn't fun in the random bang-your-dead 3.5 method. If the PCs are actually fighting a pit fiend then (in my mind) they have hit the climax of a story and trying to kill them is very much in order.But... Dying's not fun, right?I dunno. Imagine that the fighter drops. He ain't quite dead and his buds step in to cover him. Just fling an ally at him and POP! Dead fighter.Why do you think Pit Fiends are chicks?
And why would a level 21 ally be worth 25 points of damage? I could see the destruction oriented demons blowing each other up, but the devils? Either way, it's pointless.
Sadly the "random" method of dying is inherent to ANY D&D game. That is unless 4E is gonna get rid of dice all together. It's probability. Players love when their Save-or-Die spells work, but they whine when they get hit with the same spell? Shenanigans.
Say a monster's got an ability that does X damage and you do Y damage with your sword, if X > Y, then why even bother playing? The DM should look at you and say "After 5 rounds, you've dealt 5 x Y damage to him, but he's done 5 x X to you, which is more than your hit points. You're dead, sorry."
If I'm reading that wrong, please tell me.
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But what does this have to do with its combat stats?
From the in-game perspective, the Pit Fiend has been around for perhaps a millenium.
Hi, Shroomy.
Those aren't just combat stats. So far as we can tell, those are all the stats for the Pit Fiend.
Long-term non-combat stuff should be in the Stat Block, because the party might parley before attacking, or might break off combat to flee or for some other purpose.
That is to say, the decision "we'll need this information for the fight, but he's certainly not going to last longer than five rounds, so we won't need that information" is belied by fickle dice-rolling and player whimsey.
The current Stat Block isolates the most urgent information (first three sections) from the less urgent (the fifth section). A lot of out-of-combat information still shows up, but it hangs out well away from the fighting statistics.
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If I'm reading that wrong, please tell me.
By random I meant arbitrary. I like the randomness of dice but not the arbitrary nature of bang-your-dead effects.
But to your point - it has been my experience that combat in D&D is over by the 2nd or 3rd round regardless of what the critters or players do. Very few combat situations swing from one side to the other. The outcome is apparent from the outset and the first two rounds bring it to light.
If I'm reading that wrong, please tell me.
By random I meant arbitrary. I like the randomness of dice but not the arbitrary nature of bang-your-dead effects.
But to your point - it has been my experience that combat in D&D is over by the 2nd or 3rd round regardless of what the critters or players do. Very few combat situations swing from one side to the other. The outcome is apparent from the outset and the first two rounds bring it to light.
Ok, I see where you're coming from, and while I echo your thoughts about the 2nd round "decider", I'm not sure that 4E will solve this problem.
The Pit Fiend does have trained skills of +27 for Bluff and Intimidate, and +22 for Diplomacy (and any other Cha-based skills). Those are in the stat-block.
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Ok, I see where you're coming from, and while I echo your thoughts about the 2nd round "decider", I'm not sure that 4E will solve this problem.
I know. If they can't make combat meaningful beyond the first couple of rounds AND streamline it then I will be off to other games.
I was encouraged by the example combat they had posted but I will hold off until I actually play the game to really decide if it works.
The pit fiend is designated as an elite monster, so it is the equivalent of two standard monsters.Hmmmm....
We know that the Pit Fiend is level 26. We know he is not designated as "solo" so presumably there will be 1 per PC.
I wonder if the minis will be sold as commons bieng minions, elites uncommon, and solos as rares. Suck if a common is a solo monster.
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I understand that folks want to add abilities to make the pit fiend more interesting or challenging. Go for it. Use this guy as the base and add whatever you want.
Nothing stopping you.
This is never an adequate response in my book and, given the frequency with which it is used by people who want to reject 4e regardless of its merits (e.g., "you don't need new rules, if you want a monster that does x, just house rule it to do x"), I'm particularly annoyed that is being employed in this manner. I shouldn't have to change a monster, it should be a quality monster out of the box. The pre-4e pit fiend had a suite of abilities that made it a good mastermind villian. If I write a new adventure for eDungeon featuring a 4e pit fiend, I don't have the luxury of those abilities. If I add them in, I have to waste text explaining where they came from. If I change it in my game, I deviate from the expectations of my players.
If the fact that you can house rule something is a legitimate argument, then WotC could just release a game and say "resolve conflicts according to the rules you believe appropriate for your players." Nothing stopping you from adding in more robust combat mechancis to such a game.
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The sad thing is, if the PC's can get any protection against fire and fear effects (surely 26th level PC's would have access to this), then the new pit fiend is little more than a big pile of hit points. He's not scary at all. It just takes a while to whittle him down before adding his exp to your character sheet. That's very disappointing and boring for a powerful leader of devils.
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The sad thing is, if the PC's can get any protection against fire and fear effects (surely 26th level PC's would have access to this), then the new pit fiend is little more than a big pile of hit points. He's not scary at all. It just takes a while to whittle him down before adding his exp to your character sheet. That's very disappointing and boring for a powerful leader of devils.
D&D has always suffered from high level rock/paper/scissors. Take my holy liberator - the big bad guy of this mod was an ultra-powerful mind bender. I am immune to all enchantment charm and compulsion effects. The big combat at the end of the mod that was supposed to test the party to its breaking point lasted two rounds. He controlled some party members. I walked right up and killed his body guard on round one and on round two I made him go splat.
He was paper and I was scissors. Fight over.
Alas, 4E does not seem to have fixed this problem.
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Of course, if you're arranging a happy little delve for Gen-Con, or writing an RPGA module for pre-gens, you don't have to worry about what a monster does out of combat, because they wait around in 20'-by-30' rooms until thei hear somebody walking down the hall; because they only exist for about five combat rounds.
On the other hand, if you are writing an RPGA adventure for a Living Campaign, you are expected to abide by the game rules, and be able to justify everything involved in an encounter. That very much includes how they get advanced warning to buff.
Indeed, considering that, and considering statements for 3E that creatures with at-will powers will generally activate them constantly, I see no reason why a pit fiend would not have the flunky devils with it constantly. They remain until killed or dismissed. All a pit fiend has to do is summon them in the morning and keep them around all day.
That is a definite twist to the tactics and the overall danger of the encounter.
Seems to me that without all the counters (like SR, DR, dispels) against player's powers, that this fight would be trivial.
Pit fiend 4E more like a Pit noodle.
I think you are thinking in 3.5e terms here. I'm fairly confident that the designers were at least able to somewhat balance 4e monsters against 4e PCs.
BTW, in a blog post Mike Mearls confirmed the existence of templates (what form they take is another mattre) and the ability to add class levels to a monster (well, at least humanoid monsters, since his example was an 8th level gnoll warlock).
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Indeed, considering that, and considering statements for 3E that creatures with at-will powers will generally activate them constantly, I see no reason why a pit fiend would not have the flunky devils with it constantly. They remain until killed or dismissed. All a pit fiend has to do is summon them in the morning and keep them around all day.
That is a definite twist to the tactics and the overall danger of the encounter.
I could see a pit fiend reduced to guard duty for some reason, summoning minions and randomly blowing them up into the wall for fun
When I read this article, I had a slightly different take on it on their irresistable command ability. I figured this exploding minions ability was a disciplinary tool that was statted out since it could have combat usefulness. You got a pack of lesser minions that have disappointed you? Point at one, it slides a safe distance back from the rest of the grovelers, then POW! Talk about your instant motivation. And if I were designing an encounter with a pit fiend, I'd make sure that it had a couple of very low level minions on hand (you know, for manicures, recipients of kicks of frustration, etc.), that could quickly be turned into weapons if it was attacked. I probably wouldn't use the higher level summoned minions as ranged attacks unless I saw that one was a strike from a PC away from dying anyway.
bah! dumbed down devil (DDD?) raid groups, elites, I feel like my favorite game wants me to go back to Gnomergan...AGAIN. Hope my guild comps me good for that. remember to take buffer (rock?) tank (paper?) and crowd control (scissors?) maybe a flanker or striker. Later we can go kill Onyxia right?
Gimme a break. this monster stinks. It's flavor has been buried beneath the whole "KISS" mentality. How about "KITSIST" Keeping It Too Simple Is Stupid Too. Do I get a Wotzi prize for catchy abbreviations too?
Question to all of you. Have any of you ever run an EL 12+ encounter straight out of the book? with no modification? Was it REALLY so hard?
How about another one: How many of you DON'T have a sizeable percentage of the PHB spells memorized? Do you feel that you really needed more simplification?
I don't mean to offend anybody. But it takes a not inconsiderable amount of brains to be a DM in the first place. So why are we being lumped in with the ADHD riddled WoW players?
3.5 Pit Fiend would shred this fool and use his neck stump for a lavatory. He (or she) isn't generically relegated to a "tactical role" because combat is supposed to be fluid. This beastie has HP. Great. A decent melee attack. Great. a COUPLE of abilities to draw upon. uh...ok? Some leader of armies.
This chump can bite it. even the flavor text is pretty generic. Can any of you say that you are looking forward to having this...this...shadow of a pit fiend "challenging" your party? Leave his generic a** in Blackrock depths. I'll stick to my fiendish codex.
LOL! apologies! next time, a proof read for my ADD riddled a** ;)
It bothers me that "the most powerful entity in Hell short of the Big 9" or whatever, is still be designed to last 5 rounds. It also says in the description it's going to start summoning and destroying its minions in round one - which is ridiculous. If it's only going to last a few rounds - shouldn't it want to keep its minions to hold off the PCs as long as possible? Shouldn't a level 21 creature be more challenging to the PCs more than 25 pts of Damage? In 3.5, I know a party of 4 - 20th level characters, say, fighting a Pit Fiend (CR 20) are going to cry if 8 Cornugons (CR 16) show up - Is one of the Cornugons worth 25 pts of damage? Esp since everyone and everything has more HP now??
Wait - and this is an elite monster - so there will be one per 2 PCs? 1 lvl 26 monster and 8 level 21s are only going to use up 20% of the resources of 2 PCs? You've got to me kidding me!!
It bothers me that "the most powerful entity in Hell short of the Big 9" or whatever, is still be designed to last 5 rounds. It also says in the description it's going to start summoning and destroying its minions in round one - which is ridiculous. If it's only going to last a few rounds - shouldn't it want to keep its minions to hold off the PCs as long as possible? Shouldn't a level 21 creature be more challenging to the PCs more than 25 pts of Damage? In 3.5, I know a party of 4 - 20th level characters, say, fighting a Pit Fiend (CR 20) are going to cry if 8 Cornugons (CR 16) show up - Is one of the Cornugons worth 25 pts of damage? Esp since everyone and everything has more HP now??
Wait - and this is an elite monster - so there will be one per 2 PCs? 1 lvl 26 monster and 8 level 21s are only going to use up 20% of the resources of 2 PCs? You've got to me kidding me!!
Keep in mind, "The most powerful entity in Hell short of the Big 9" is only designed to last a handful of rounds against four 20th level 3.5e characters. BTW, you are mixing up 3.5e and 4e mechanics, they don't seem to mesh the way you are describing.
It's possible they don't. Still - We can assume that one elite monster is equal to 2 PCs of the same level - someone earlier in the thread mentioned it as well. I have to assume that levels and CR are more or less relative - so I don't think it's too far off comparing the two pit fiend examples. No one will know for sure till the books are in hand and read. Unfortunately for Wizards, it won't be in my hands- I'll come back to the boards to check and see. However, I don't think I'm too far off. A "level 21 devil" (or Cornugon) still has to be more valuable 25 pts of damage - esp to a PC with even more HP than before. (and especially on the first round of combat!) Time will tell
It's possible they don't. Still - We can assume that one elite monster is equal to 2 PCs of the same level - someone earlier in the thread mentioned it as well. I have to assume that levels and CR are more or less relative - so I don't think it's too far off comparing the two pit fiend examples. No one will know for sure till the books are in hand and read. Unfortunately for Wizards, it won't be in my hands- I'll come back to the boards to check and see. However, I don't think I'm too far off. A "level 21 devil" (or Cornugon) still has to be more valuable 25 pts of damage - esp to a PC with even more HP than before. (and especially on the first round of combat!) Time will tell
Sorry, I meant this part of your last post:
Wait - and this is an elite monster - so there will be one per 2 PCs? 1 lvl 26 monster and 8 level 21s are only going to use up 20% of the resources of 2 PCs? You've got to me kidding me!!
Using up 20% resources is part of the 3.x system and does not seem to apply to 4e. CR and Monster Level are clearly both ways to build encounters of an appropriate challenge.
I think hit points may be going down in 4e overall given the dearth of stat boosting items.
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Hmm, I dunno. I put off going to read the Pit Fiend Entry but curiosity got the better of me. And when I was done I grinned with the image of a 3.5 Pit Fiend standing next to a 4.0 Pit Fiend and it looking like the tarrasque standing next to a dretch. The 4.0 stats is the little emaciated skinny fellow with no personality while the 3.5 version is a well-rounded, fed and healthy specimen of true potential.
Interesting how that new stat block somehow reminds me of my D&D mini cards. *biiiiiiig yawn*
-DM Jeff
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It's possible they don't. Still - We can assume that one elite monster is equal to 2 PCs of the same level - someone earlier in the thread mentioned it as well. I have to assume that levels and CR are more or less relative - so I don't think it's too far off comparing the two pit fiend examples. No one will know for sure till the books are in hand and read. Unfortunately for Wizards, it won't be in my hands- I'll come back to the boards to check and see. However, I don't think I'm too far off. A "level 21 devil" (or Cornugon) still has to be more valuable 25 pts of damage - esp to a PC with even more HP than before. (and especially on the first round of combat!) Time will tellSorry, I meant this part of your last post:
Wait - and this is an elite monster - so there will be one per 2 PCs? 1 lvl 26 monster and 8 level 21s are only going to use up 20% of the resources of 2 PCs? You've got to me kidding me!!
Using up 20% resources is part of the 3.x system and does not seem to apply to 4e. CR and Monster Level are clearly both ways to build encounters of an appropriate challenge.
I think hit points may be going down in 4e overall given the dearth of stat boosting items.
Especially since PC's in 4th edition will get most of their resources back as soon as a fight is over. Healing is also more prevalent. Shortly after even a tough fight, they will have everything back but their per day powers. I believe that 30 level PC's in 4th edition are supposed to be roughly equivalent in power to 20th PC's in 3.5. That means that the 4E pit fiend would be about a CR18 creature in 3.5. He's awfully weak for a CR18 creature. A CR 16 cornugon could own him in several rounds. It seems monsters are being make weaker as well as simpler so that the PC's can steamroll over them with little fear of death. 4E is all about being able to roxxor.
Interesting how that new stat block somehow reminds me of my D&D mini cards.
Yea, I noticed that too and that is turning me off it more then anything else. So what, when a monster gets "bloodied" does it have to make a will save or flee for the exit?
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Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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Interesting how that new stat block somehow reminds me of my D&D mini cards. *biiiiiiig yawn*
-DM Jeff
DM Jeff, I think you hit the nail on the head. It looks like we're losing some of the awe the big critters give us in 3.5 so we can play a version of the D&D Miniatures Tabletop Battle Game - all so we can get combat over in 5 rounds.
I don't know about you, but I think a big battle with one of the most powerful creatures in D&D should last a little longer than 30 seconds of in-game time (assuming a round is still considered ~6 seconds in 4E).
One poster commented that you can usually tell how a combat is going to go within the first 2 rounds. In my experience, that may be true at lower levels or against minions and lackeys, but the truly challenging combats my group have been in at 5th level and higher (usually against named villains) have ebbs and flows to them that usually keep the outcome in doubt until the final blow is struck. Attempting to limit combat encounters to 5 rounds will detract from this feel for those of us who share this experience in their games.