Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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I know the Wish spell in 3.x isn't what it was in 1st and 2nd edition, but as a DM, I've always loved playing with that spell.
Most of the fun of the Wish spell is the ability for a DM to read between the lines and have the wish function based on its phrasing, rather than its intent.
For example, a player of mine once made this wish: "I wish I had a million gold pieces." Now, we all know the player wants a million gold. However, I twisted his wish, focusing on the "had" verb in the phrase. His wish was granted, as his total treasure obtained to that point in the campaign was just over a million gold. Thus, he "had" a million gold, he just spent it all.
My twisting of wishes has become legendary in my campaigns. So much so, that players will spend hours prior to the gaming session writing down wishes that I won't be able to twist. Sometimes, it works. But even if they don't work out as the player wishes, it's always a good time!
My question is this: Have any of you taken a similar tack on the Wish spell? And if so, would you care to share your game experiences?
Ha! I grew up wish a sadistic DM who played the same way, and influenced me to do the same. I recall an article from a very early Dragon magazine that suggested a family of wishes, from the "true" wish that granted what the wishee actually desired to the perverse wish that twisted everything. I can recall spending hours writing the perfect phrasing of a wish in order to have it granted properly. Such thinking even permeates my thought processes when blowing our birthday candles or tossing pennies in a well. For me, the game was a richer experience with wishes that required careful word choice.
Congratulations on busting a player’s chops for using proper grammar.
On those rare occasions we get wishes, we never want to use them. We're too afraid that they'll get twisted horribly. Even if we wish for things completely within the limits of the spell (e.g. to raise an ability score), we're still worried we'll get randomly polymorphed, or the wish won't go off (oops, wrong verb tense), or whatnot.
As a player, that drives me nuts. Yes, wish is easily abused. You can abuse the thing accidentally even. I've always believed that the wish should actually focus on the intent as much as the wording. Why? Because it's a 9th-level spell, usable by wizards. You know, those people with 19+ Intelligence? Smarter than most of us? Somewhere in the forgotten past, some wizard invented this spell. He was most likely a veteran adventurer, certainly experienced. And he came up with a spell to give him anything. I'm sure he found out it was still limited. But when he was creating this spell, I'm sure he didn't create it with a special focus/material component called "Webster's Dictionary", or "W-2", or your favorite form. He created it to do what he said. If he said "I wish my apprentices were a little more tidy," I doubt he intended for them to all suddenly have their skill points dumped into Profession (butler or maid). Just seems like DMs go out of their way to screw up wishes to me. Should they? Not to me. When I'm afraid of using one of my own spells because of the DM fiat becoming involved, that's not good.
On the other hand, idiocy should always be rewarded with grief and DM's amusement.
Enough ranting. On with our day.
I have used the twisted wish idea as well. It's staple after all.
But my qualifier is simple. Are you being especially selfish?
If yes, prepare to have your wish twisted.
If no, then it will probably happen in maybe not in the manner you thought (but not in a horrible way).
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haha - there was a list on WEBRPG (not sure if its still there under top 10 lists) that was top 10 wishes. one of the entries was a 10 page wish about this castle that a PC made.... the DM didn't feel like reading it all, so said "fine, sure" thinking it would be mostly used for RP purposes later.
move ahead 2 weeks and the party kills a dragon with a hoard of gold, and the DM thinks he's smart sicne the PCs will have to walk 2 weeks to get donkeys to bring the gold back and plans for the gold to be gone when they get back..... well the PC walks over to the pile and goes " I touch it and the whole pile disappears" the DM looks confused and the PC replies "it's on page 4 of my castle wish 'on command I can move any object i touch to my castle's vault(noncombat situations only)'"
that might not be the exact story, but its close - and kept it stuck in my mind
the PC replies "it's on page 4 of my castle wish 'on command I can move any object i touch to my castle's vault (noncombat situations only)'"
The DM should have insisted that he touch every piece of treasure, every coin, everything individually.
the PC replies "it's on page 4 of my castle wish 'on command I can move any object i touch to my castle's vault (noncombat situations only)'"The DM should have insisted that he touch every piece of treasure, every coin, everything individually.
While naked and floating.
haha - there was a list on WEBRPG (not sure if its still there under top 10 lists) that was top 10 wishes. one of the entries was a 10 page wish about this castle that a PC made.... the DM didn't feel like reading it all, so said "fine, sure" thinking it would be mostly used for RP purposes later.
move ahead 2 weeks and the party kills a dragon with a hoard of gold, and the DM thinks he's smart sicne the PCs will have to walk 2 weeks to get donkeys to bring the gold back and plans for the gold to be gone when they get back..... well the PC walks over to the pile and goes " I touch it and the whole pile disappears" the DM looks confused and the PC replies "it's on page 4 of my castle wish 'on command I can move any object i touch to my castle's vault(noncombat situations only)'"
that might not be the exact story, but its close - and kept it stuck in my mind
Always best to read the fne print. I can't beleive the DM fell for this. The shame.....
*Takes hat off to ArchLich*
the PC replies "it's on page 4 of my castle wish 'on command I can move any object i touch to my castle's vault (noncombat situations only)'"The DM should have insisted that he touch every piece of treasure, every coin, everything individually.
Now that's one way to count up all the treasure.
PC: How many coins can I touch every round?
DM: Oh, I don't know, let's say 20.
PC: How many are there?
DM: Let me do a little math here . . . hmm, looks like you'll be counting coins until next Thursday. Hope you weren't planning on doing anything over the next few days!
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the PC replies "it's on page 4 of my castle wish 'on command I can move any object i touch to my castle's vault (noncombat situations only)'"The DM should have insisted that he touch every piece of treasure, every coin, everything individually.
Now that's one way to count up all the treasure.
PC: How many coins can I touch every round?
DM: Oh, I don't know, let's say 20.
PC: How many are there?
DM: Let me do a little math here . . . hmm, looks like you'll be counting coins until next Thursday. Hope you weren't planning on doing anything over the next few days!
They might have loaded them into bags/chests first - its beenabout 3 years since i read the story
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See, I don't twist my players' words around in Wish and Contingeny spells. I respect the intent. They, in turn, don't abuse.
I also tell them to read the spell description and acknowledge its limitations. Now, I think Wish in 3E is too weak, comparitively to Time Stop, Gate, Sphere of Annihilation, Heavenly Host, and even a few others. So I tell them that their wish can be a little more powerful.
But if they go too far, nothing really happens; it's more like spell failure instead of derailing the game by making a TPK or going on a tangent. Or sometimes I just go half way for their wish.
If the Wizard wishes for all his prepared spells back, I'll give him some.
If it's full hit point or level restoration -- absolutely granted.
If it's a too poweful magic item then I'll wait for a time when it doesn't interrupt the current session or "series" in the campaign and make them face a BBEG with said magic item. (This I got from (I think) an old Dragon article: if they wish for a Staff of Power, send them to one, and the Archmage who's holding it!)
-W. E. Ray
On those rare occasions we get wishes, we never want to use them. We're too afraid that they'll get twisted horribly. Even if we wish for things completely within the limits of the spell (e.g. to raise an ability score), we're still worried we'll get randomly polymorphed, or the wish won't go off (oops, wrong verb tense), or whatnot.
As a player, that drives me nuts. Yes, wish is easily abused. You can abuse the thing accidentally even. I've always believed that the wish should actually focus on the intent as much as the wording. Why? Because it's a 9th-level spell, usable by wizards. You know, those people with 19+ Intelligence? Smarter than most of us? Somewhere in the forgotten past, some wizard invented this spell. He was most likely a veteran adventurer, certainly experienced. And he came up with a spell to give him anything. I'm sure he found out it was still limited. But when he was creating this spell, I'm sure he didn't create it with a special focus/material component called "Webster's Dictionary", or "W-2", or your favorite form. He created it to do what he said. If he said "I wish my apprentices were a little more tidy," I doubt he intended for them to all suddenly have their skill points dumped into Profession (butler or maid). Just seems like DMs go out of their way to screw up wishes to me. Should they? Not to me. When I'm afraid of using one of my own spells because of the DM fiat becoming involved, that's not good....
Quoting the SRD:
You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)
In other words, usually wish is safe, but if you wish for something that the DM would rather you not have, such as a very powerful magic item or a dragon cohort, I think that the DM should play the genie and twist the wish to his pleasure.
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As a player, I like using Wish in a way that makes DM's cry, such as creating a paradox within the campaign. I like being left to undo my character's mistakes, it makes for interesting adventures.
As a DM, I've told my players, in no uncertain terms that if they make a Wish within the parameters of the PHB, then I'll grant it as is(as long as its not game-breaking or overpowering). If they make one that is beyond the parameters, or game-breaking/overpowering then they are at my mercy. And they shall remember for the next time.
Wishes that are clever and original may even get bonus experience points(but I haven't told my players this).
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Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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On those rare occasions we get wishes, we never want to use them. We're too afraid that they'll get twisted horribly. Even if we wish for things completely within the limits of the spell (e.g. to raise an ability score), we're still worried we'll get randomly polymorphed, or the wish won't go off (oops, wrong verb tense), or whatnot.
As a player, that drives me nuts. Yes, wish is easily abused. You can abuse the thing accidentally even. I've always believed that the wish should actually focus on the intent as much as the wording. Why? Because it's a 9th-level spell, usable by wizards. You know, those people with 19+ Intelligence? Smarter than most of us? Somewhere in the forgotten past, some wizard invented this spell. He was most likely a veteran adventurer, certainly experienced. And he came up with a spell to give him anything. I'm sure he found out it was still limited. But when he was creating this spell, I'm sure he didn't create it with a special focus/material component called "Webster's Dictionary", or "W-2", or your favorite form. He created it to do what he said. If he said "I wish my apprentices were a little more tidy," I doubt he intended for them to all suddenly have their skill points dumped into Profession (butler or maid). Just seems like DMs go out of their way to screw up wishes to me. Should they? Not to me. When I'm afraid of using one of my own spells because of the DM fiat becoming involved, that's not good.
On the other hand, idiocy should always be rewarded with grief and DM's amusement.
Enough ranting. On with our day.
But who's to say the Wizard didn't become a victim of his own spell?
Wizards make mistakes all the time while trying to invent new spells. They're very intelligent, but not always very wise... ; )|
Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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Congratulations on busting a player’s chops for using proper grammar.
"I wish for one million gold pieces to appear, and remain, in my vault right now."
Present tense. Gets the job done. Still can be twisted, but it takes away the DM's option of using the past tense scenario. In any case, whenever a PC wishes for a large amount of treasure or a powerful magic item, I will do my best to mess with them. If they wish for something to help the party, or to help complete an adventure, then I may be more lenient.
(BTW, whether as a player or DM, every Wish my party's ever received was the result of a magic item, NPC, or creature. Only once have I been in a campaign long enough for a PC to be high enough level to cast Wish, and that player never tried to cast it)
Congratulations on busting a player’s chops for using proper grammar."I wish for one million gold pieces to appear, and remain, in my vault right now."
OK. 1 million gold pieces appear in your vault and stay there - forever. They cannot be removed (and spent) by physical force or magic (but maybe another Wish spell?)
Wishes are fun. If done well. The clash comes between the almost story-like desire of the DM for the wish to go into some amazing event, and the desire of the player(s) to improve their lot in life. Now. The situation is not unlike magic. Left to one's own devices, most players will choose items that boost their characters up in statistics, ability, etc (as per Andy Collins' article about the Big Six). Many DMs would rather everyone went for the fun, whimsical wondrous item. Similarly, wishes when applied by PCs typically (though not always) go for cash, fortresses, personal power you can't get otherwise, etc.
My favorite twisted wish fulfillment was the paladin who wanted a sword that did almost everything including being a luckblade (so they could get more wishes). All the fun abilities out of the 1E DMG. Durn thing had an ego of almost 40 too. But I locked it inside an unbreakable glassteel box. So they could see it, but not touch it. Spent a good chunk of the game trying to get it out.
Recently, I had an incredibly fun experience with wishes though. I ran a monster PC game where one of the monsters was a djinni. He ran around listing to the other players, and trying to prompt them with "Do you wish for that?" and dialogue to that effect. Metagaming instantly kicked in and they pretty much never uttered the phrase "I wish" except for one brilliant moment. So that worked well.
What have I learned from this? With great maturity comes great wishes.
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Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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OK. 1 million gold pieces appear in your vault and stay there - forever. They cannot be removed (and spent) by physical force or magic (but maybe another Wish spell?)Congratulations on busting a player’s chops for using proper grammar."I wish for one million gold pieces to appear, and remain, in my vault right now."
LOL. I knew there was still a way to mess with it...
LOL. I knew there was still a way to mess with it...OK. 1 million gold pieces appear in your vault and stay there - forever. They cannot be removed (and spent) by physical force or magic (but maybe another Wish spell?)Congratulations on busting a player’s chops for using proper grammar."I wish for one million gold pieces to appear, and remain, in my vault right now."
Thats why you don't ask for a million gold pieces. Ask for money? Fine. Look at the darn spell. Says in it 25,000 gp or the like is fine. Ask for more? Well what did you expect? It to work?!?
I had a player wish for a tonne of money and a long list of other things. Got it all to.
1 tonne ball of silver dropped on you from the upper atmosphere? The math says you dead fred.
As a player, I like using Wish in a way that makes DM's cry, such as creating a paradox within the campaign. I like being left to undo my character's mistakes, it makes for interesting adventures.
As a DM, I've told my players, in no uncertain terms that if they make a Wish within the parameters of the PHB, then I'll grant it as is(as long as its not game-breaking or overpowering). If they make one that is beyond the parameters, or game-breaking/overpowering then they are at my mercy. And they shall remember for the next time.
Wishes that are clever and original may even get bonus experience points(but I haven't told my players this).
Exactly. I don't think all DMs are d&*ks (though some are I'm sure). Be reasonable that's all I ask.
In other words: Don't try to ruin the whole game for me and the other players.|
Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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I had a player wish for a tonne of money and a long list of other things. Got it all to.
1 tonne ball of silver dropped on you from the upper atmosphere? The math says you dead fred.
ROFLMAO! That rocks!
I agree with your other point about not ruining the game. My players expect wishes to turn out a little funky, and look at it as a challenge to come up with a good wish, and it's become a really fun part of our games (for everyone) to see how the DM (me or my buddy) can mess with a wish. In fact, the other players who didn't make the wish often chime in with suggestions to the DM for making the wish more "interesting."
If we had a player who didn't particularly care for how we handle wishes, we may be inclined to change the way we play it. But right now, it's a free for all!
I have used the twisted wish idea as well. It's staple after all.
LOL Totally agree.
I did the same thing in Marvel Superheroes. Player's PCs (middle-of-the-rung heroes) encountered a god-like being that could grant individuals their wildest desires (think Beyonder ripoff). One character asks to be "one with the universe", which of course is the description of Unearthly Intuition (i.e. god-like awareness). So he got transmutted into a large numeral "1", floating aimlessly through space.
If you ever see it, now you'll know where it came from.
They might have loaded them into bags/chests first - its beenabout 3 years since i read the storythe PC replies "it's on page 4 of my castle wish 'on command I can move any object i touch to my castle's vault (noncombat situations only)'"The DM should have insisted that he touch every piece of treasure, every coin, everything individually.
Now that's one way to count up all the treasure.
PC: How many coins can I touch every round?
DM: Oh, I don't know, let's say 20.
PC: How many are there?
DM: Let me do a little math here . . . hmm, looks like you'll be counting coins until next Thursday. Hope you weren't planning on doing anything over the next few days!
PC: We put the treasure in bags/chests and touch them to send them back to the castle.
DM: OK . . . All set to touch them?PC: Yes! We touch the chests.
DM: You touch the first chest. It disappears. Its contents, no longer held by anything, spill onto the floor.
PC: *@#%!
You know, I’m starting to see the fun of twisting wishes.
If you do not want your players to have something, then don’t give it to them. This just really seems rather passive aggressive to me. Granted, I have been guilty of it myself.
This goes beyond just Wish. This applies to any ability which can cause problems in the campaign. I think it would be better to talk to your players and either not allow it at all or ask them not to rape your campaign world with it. It just creates a GM vs. Player attitude when you pervert their ability just because it inconvenienced you.
But out-of-game conversations like that tend to reduce the realism.
Good point. Back to our player bashing.
Stupid players! How dare they speak in my presence. They should kneel and sing my praises on high.
Wishes rule...unless you happen to be the player wishing for it. A deck of many things was introduced, and lo and behold, a PC draws a wish.
After much fussing and conversation, the PC said, "I wish we had a really cool castle full of cool stuff...and cool people that can help us with our adventures."
well....the party immediately starts groaning. (it was a n00bie player). I take a 5 minute break, and when I return, I inform him that with a peal of thunder, his mind clears, and he realizes he inherited a castle...3,000 miles north of them, on the frozen wastes of his families ancestral lands.
Needless to say, when they got there, 13 months of real time later, they discovered that "can" help didn't necessarily mean WILL help.
It was almost as fun as the wishing for a million GP gag...forgetting they were in the middle of the wilderness, and that 1,000,000 GP weighed something like 600,000 lbs. I LOVE this game!
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I already mentioned that I don't screw with the intentions of the Player's Wish. However, there's an old Ravenloft adventure, never published, about a Figurine of Wondrous Power, Imp, that granted wishes but twisted them around horribly.
It was (obviously) a cursed item and you couldn't get rid of it (no Will Save) except by giving it to a willing person. I believe that you had to explain (even if you were misleading) what the item really was.
I always thought that was a GREAT idea for a cursed magical item (and adventure hook) and it was perfect for Ravenloft.
-W. E. Ray
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I already mentioned that I don't screw with the intentions of the Player's Wish. However, there's an old Ravenloft adventure, never published, about a Figurine of Wondrous Power, Imp, that granted wishes but twisted them around horribly.
It was (obviously) a cursed item and you couldn't get rid of it (no Will Save) except by giving it to a willing person. I believe that you had to explain (even if you were misleading) what the item really was.
I always thought that was a GREAT idea for a cursed magical item (and adventure hook) and it was perfect for Ravenloft.
-W. E. Ray
Yeah, the Wishing Imp was in the updated Ravenloft, too. It could grant one wish per day, and would twist the wish, no matter the intent or how carefully worded it was. Normally, if someone wishes for, say, 1000 experience, I'd grant it. But, if they made that wish upon the Imp, I'd have to twist it, and drop their experience total to 1000.
And to get rid of the Imp, you had two options. The first was to die. The second, you had to tell the whole truth about the Imp, as you know it. The only loophole is that if you don't know that it plays with your wishes, then you are not required to mention it. So if you have a really stupid, unaware character, you might get away with it.
Another PC in a game we played once years ago recieved a wish from a exterplaner something or other (cant remember anymore), Anyway the DM was a WishTwister and when the player wished to be "naturaly immune to fire" the DM said "poof...your a Salamander" and handed him the Monsterous Compendium opend to the page describing the huminoid monsters that live in volcanos. The player was PISSED. The rest of us laughed.
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My threshold is that it's on par with what wishes can absolutely grant. Thus, since a wish can duplicate the effect of any 8th-level or lower spell, any comparable effect is reasonable without particular consideration. It is a bit more powerful than that, though, given that you can choose ANY lower spell, and it's a ninth-level spell, so the power bar SHOULD be higher. In general, it is easier to say what should NOT be possible. As a starting point:
Time travel, unless there is a good reason for it that would improve the campaign.
Stuff that can't be expressed well in the ruleset. Complete invulnerability, special unique abilities like turning stuff to gold by touch, and the like.
Stuff messing with the gods. No. It could certainly get the gods' attention, though.
Major holdings, titles, and other roleplaying- and story awards that would in effect change the opinions of a zogging lot of people. I would say it is ALWAYS easier to get these things by conventional deeds than through magic.
Barring this, there are many other things it can certainly do. Change someone's race, improve inherent bonuses to stats, get lesser magic items or get a chance at obtaining major ones, locations of hidden things, clues to major mysteries, solutions to minor ones. Temporary strange abilities. Destruction on a scale on par with major damage spells of level 8-9. Minor effects over larger areas.
There is no point in screwing players over for making wishes. If they come up with a real stinker, I'd be fine with letting them redo.
I like Sissy's solution, but I also like the fun the cursed Imp figurine can be (specifically, looking for the characters to say "I wish...", even accidentally).