Hmm... why, for 10 grand I could probably have that artist captured as well, then keep him in my basement slave laboring to make all the tentacled chandeliers I'd ever want or need!
Best not to risk the wrath of the great old ones...
George Burns?
Oh, God! You Devil...
If Nicky gets fewer writing gigs, I may have to buy less paizo stuff. which would make me cry.
I'm losing too many of my favorite rpog writers as it is. dont take Nicky away!
Now, if I can just get around that whole "requires a uterus" thing
RPG Superstar 2013
|
I never knew this post existed, and I have to say my thing for several reasons. I have run a Logue adventure, I have read a couple of other adventures, I have played in an unpublished game run by Nic, and I am currently playing in Crown of the Kobold King, my wife's first attempt to run a game. Most importantly, Nic Logue is my friend and I know just how dark and sick he isn't.
Reading the thread, it's empirical that Nic's writings are more mainstream than they are abusively gory. So I don't have to go over that, except to second it. If there's a gory element to Crown of the Kobold King, it has been provided by my monk of Wee Jas, who has declared a state of war with the kobolds and is now terrorizing the kobold king with awkward body placement, threatening notes, and lies about how many kobolds are dead and how many monks and dwarves are on the way to finish the job. The kobolds, at this time, are very tired of the gore and hopelessness of Nic's adventure, and long for a little victory. Maybe they'll get one if my party ever finds the 'smoky ball of hate' that our kobold prisoners keep talking about.
But also, I have to say this: Library of Last Resort is utterly not gory, and yet so spooky and descriptive. The violently majestic titan, the octopus tree, the nightmare beast. This adventure is original, powerful and well-organized. It is challenging, too. The best reason to bring up Library here, is that to be creepy, Nic doesn't have to do gross horror. He can fill an 18th level character's pants without the use of incestuous, cannibal half-ogres.
The supposition that other horror is dry, and Nic's horror makes you want to be a better man the next day is accurate. A good dungeon master is hard on his players, but also roots for them to succeed. Reading Hook Mountain with no plans to run it, I want to get a party together just to teach the Grauls a lesson. I want to see their homestead flamestruck, burned to the ground, and consecrated in the name of a harmless butterfly goddess by PCs. Nic might have grossed someone else out, he made me deplore evil again.
What Nic says about failure and fighting the good fight rings very true. In one of the best-roleplayed events I have ever been fortunate enough to involve myself in, Nic used these redundantly disturbing images and practices of the vampires to clearly illustrate how pointlessly violent and utterly bored the greatest among them were. The plot of the game was for supervampire PCs to eradicate the remainder of my meager werewolf 'nation' before heading on up to the glaciers to sleep forever. It served its intended purpose: the good guys hated the vampires, and when the good guys approached victory, the vampires gave in just for the relief of not having to get up tomorrow night.
And my character was the epitome of failure. Long convinced there would be a turning point in the 'war' that the werewolves kept losing, my chieftain was at the brink of throwing in the towel. Nic really set that stage well. To the point that I decided my kidnapped 'chosen one' character was going to have to defend himself against the next assassination. They weren't even trying to kill him. They wanted me to stop getting our kind killed. I hammered my first opponent and made him fight the rest.
That game was not disturbing. It was one of the most dramatic and funny experiences of my life. It was special in a way that most of us will never see in an RPG. Experienced players longing to tell a story, led by an elite DM. And his use of horror in our game served an irreplacable purpose. There's nothing gratuitous about Nic's gore or violence or subject matter. He is getting exactly what he wants out of you.
I'll pay good money for a Nic Logue product anytime. I know I'm getting some of the best stuff, and if it's over the top, I'll know it's because it had to be.
Contributor
|
if only you all saw what gets edited out...
the simple fact is: the world is a far better place with Nick in it.
Nick is by far one of the most talented writers in the RPG industry.
He repeatedly pushes limits and forces everyone else to rise to the occassion.
Too much gore? prior too Nick, who would know? No one. No one attempted to push the envelope.
But let it be stated that Nick has pushed the envelope on everything and made the game better for it.
His NPCs have more depth and detail, more human element than anyone elses in the industry. His backstories, his character motivations, all of these are so far beyond what people thought of for a game.
In many ways, he has turned simple game design into collective art.
He has imbued his work with personality and life, so much so that in many ways it surpasses the sci-fi and fantasy novels that the game originally tried to emmulate.
Yes, bad things happen, outcomes might have a less than perfect shine, they might sometimes be missing a Hollywood ending.
Thank God!
Most of Shakespeare's stuff had unfortunate endings too. When did having a happy ending become necessity to brilliant art?
The best part is... you can't stop the Logue.
It doesn't matter what you think of his work,
he writes compulsively.
he wrote this stuff way before anyone published it.
if Roleplaying was banned tomorrow and punishable by death, he'd still be writting it. And still be running games.
so hahahahahaha! all you haters.
when roleplaying becomes a capital crime you won't have anyone to game with and I will!!!!
oh, and I'm the hack who put in all the gorey parts in E1 so stop blaming Nick for that. He only added the whores.
|
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
|
oh, and I'm the hack who put in all the gorey parts in E1 so stop blaming Nick for that. He only added the whores.
Oh Mighty Paizo, I pray unto thee, all I want this Christmas season is for Logue to have the tag (Contributor and Whoremonger) after his name.
Oh please oh please oh please oh please.
Please Paizo.
Amen.
The only problem I had with Logue adventures was in Carnival of Tears and I'll spoiler it for those that want to see for themselves.
|
oh, and I'm the hack who put in all the gorey parts in E1 so stop blaming Nick for that. He only added the whores.
I haven't read the whole thread, but I wasn't aware anyone was suggesting a boycott or lynching. However, two modules of possibly questionable taste came up in rapid succession, both with Nic's name on them, so the inferences were obvious (and I remember his last Eberron adventure in the print Dungeon also seemed to involve severed body parts as props). While these inferences may have ultimately been false in terms of Nic's predelectations, they were produced by Paizo who assumed, perhaps falsely, that we all wanted stuff like that (which, admittedly, quite a lot of us do, though not all). The issue therefore is more one of editorial policy - at the very least, spacing out the horror-infused modules a bit so they don't come all at once.
|
Hello Nick,
I am lagging behind (just received E1 this week), so my answer is somewhat belated:
I really appreciate your adventures, Nick. And I really love Falcon's Hollow - your approach to fey really strikes something, it is more true to both old fairy tales and classic D&D than anything I read in a very long time.
But two gory adventures in such a short sequence (i.e. Pathfinder #3 and GMM E1) were too much for my liking. I really love adventures which are heavy on role playing and rich setting atmosphere. I like a dungeon crawl now and then. And to my surprise I really loved Pathfinder #3 (although I never really was into "gory" adventures)!
But E1 felt too similar in mood. And there was just one month in between the two adventures.
And then there is the conclusion in E1. Counting the number of innocent killed ones and measuring success this way?
If bloody details are necessary to create a certain mood - so be it. But was this a necessary story element?
My personal line of good taste was crossed by the conclusion (and I am aware that there are others who may feel differently).
"I promise it's not really my style jwl, it just has been the kinds of modules I've been picked to write lately."
I really like your adventures and would like to see Paizo give you a chance to realize more of those adventures which are closer to your preferred style. Nevertheless one of the "gorier" ones once per year e.g. during Halloween time wouldn't be bad at all. ;-)
Greetings,
Günther
Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
|
I may be in the minority, but I like a little horror in my D&D. Actually, I like a LOT of horror in my D&D (My home brew borrows a lot from Hammer Horror).
I don't own E1, but thanks to all the postings about how gorey/gross it is has made me put it on my "must own" list (I'll probably order a copy today).
Keep up the good work, Nick & Co.!!
|
|
I bought a Logue-built jewelry box and I must say, his craftsmanship stinks! The sides are all uneven, I have glue drips running down the corners, one of the popcicle sticks juts out further than the other, I could go on.
I will never buy another piece of crap like that again.
I do like his adventures though....
;P
|
|
I may be in the minority, but I like a little horror in my D&D. Actually, I like a LOT of horror in my D&D (My home brew borrows a lot from Hammer Horror).
I don't own E1, but thanks to all the postings about how gorey/gross it is has made me put it on my "must own" list (I'll probably order a copy today).
Keep up the good work, Nick & Co.!!
Yeah, but......you're a lich.
I like horror too.
And, IKD--in a fight with a bunch of orcs or something, all the stabbing and skull splitting and what have you--what's the big deal with a little horror? Meh.....
People are so flip about the horrifying. I just don't understand the outrage. After a critical hit in my campaign: "I can't get this dagger out of my eye, can someone give it a tug for me?"
|
|
To be honest, the reason the NPC notes at the endings of D1 and E1 are so negative is merely because these choice make MUCH better springboards for further adventures involving these NPCs. If everything ends up hunkey-dory with them, then there is no conflict to set up in the future involving them. If things twist out bad for them in the end, suddenly the adventure isn't over on the last page of the module, but rather it has only just begun. This was really my goal with the NPC end notes - a starting place for the DM to take the conflict to new places. You can totally ignore them if you're not interested in pursuing those story lines and proclaim a happy ending if you want.(snip)
With the "there is no way to simply win win win" aspect is something I find near and dear to rpgs. Heroes don't always succeed and one person's hero is ALWAYS another person's villain. I use the hard choices in rpgs and bring on the bad consequences for evil's actions because I find it more true to life and true to drama (if that makes sense). Again, if it doesn't work for your group, it's pretty easy to alter swiftly in most cases.
As a player/DM, I find too many "unintended consequences" to be very frustrating, because it reinforces the idea that doing nothing would actually make things better in the long run. That said, Mr. Logue is quite right. It's a minor sidebar with ideas on how to proceed with these characters. It can be adjusted or ignored.
Like jwl*, I think the adventures might too dark at times, but it's flavor text that can easily be removed or adjusted. And for all my complaining, I look for to running the Darkmoon Vale adventures because they're solid work.
*Congratulations on your triumphant return to Monday Night Raw, by the way.
I've gotta keep that underwraps for just a little bit longer. But more news to come I promise!
Let me think about keeping my subscription.
So I canceled my Gamemastery subscription. Based on the comments about the module by Jacobs and Logue, I didn't think I was going to like Hangman's Noose (and the cover and comments threads didn't help). What I realized is that I am not looking forward to any of the other Gamemastery modules either, except maybe the Last Baron ones, though there is little information on those.
|
|
Hey, you guys. Follow it up with a review.
I just heard on the radio this morning a lead in to a 911 call about a guy who was at the plant alone and got his coat stuck in a machine, and had to take his own arm off to save his life. I turned the radio off, because I don't think that guy's miserable experience should be reduced to a clown show on the morning commute. I mean, we all have our own gauge as to what's appropriate and what's tacky. I don't feel that really gnarly evil-doers are that bad if it's a good story.
If you feel badly about Logue's recent work, maybe others do too, and maybe Paizo can change things around. I figure they'd like to stay in business.
On the flip side, if this type of work is what you want, again, Paizo needs to know. Support your boy, support this medium, with a review.
In Mr. Logue's defense, he's a wonderfully imaginative writer, so if the last few were over the top, (which I don't agree with,) it's definitely NOT due to the fact that he's trying to BE over the top just to compensate for meagre skills.
|
Contributor
|
If you feel badly about Logue's recent work, maybe others do too, and maybe Paizo can change things around. I figure they'd like to stay in business.
On the flip side, if this type of work is what you want, again, Paizo needs to know. Support your boy, support this medium, with a review.
In Mr. Logue's defense, he's a wonderfully imaginative writer, so if the last few were over the top, (which I don't agree with,) it's definitely NOT due to the fact that he's trying to BE over the top just to compensate for meagre skills.
Agreed. Reviews aren't there just to help other potential buyers... :)
If Nicolas Logue is sellin', I'm buying.
If Nicolas Logue is sellin', I'm buying.
YAY! Thanks Darrien!
I'm hoping Edge of Anarchy changes some people's minds about my general level of drooling derangement. I'm not JUST deranged, but rather, ALSO deranged. I can write adventures without rape-sex and entrails too. ;-)
Okay, so Edge gets a little gruesome near the very end, but nothing close to Hangman or Hook (I don't take responsibility for Carnival's sickness...that was all Hitchcock...that man is an evil genius!).
If you mean what you said above Darrien...I've got some good news coming your way in a couple of weeks. Little Nicky's been VERY busy lately, and you'll find out on what when April Fool's Day rolls around.
CRYPTIC POST! :-)
So I canceled my Gamemastery subscription. Based on the comments about the module by Jacobs and Logue, I didn't think I was going to like Hangman's Noose (and the cover and comments threads didn't help). What I realized is that I am not looking forward to any of the other Gamemastery modules either, except maybe the Last Baron ones, though there is little information on those.
Let me think about keeping my subscription.
Don't let messageboard comments affect your decisions. I personally thought Hangman's Noose was one of the best 3rd edition modules ever, and not at all over-the-top. It had a couple of parts that were best handled by a skilled DM, but the best adventures always do.
Anyway, read it yourself and decide. Don't let anyone else decide for you (including me).
If Nicolas Logue is sellin', I'm buying.
YAY! Thanks Darrien!
I'll be ordering it to, bro', I'm just waiting for a few tasty things to fill up one of those 7 dollar envelopes.
If Nicolas Logue is sellin', I'm buying.YAY! Thanks Darrien!I'll be ordering it to, bro', I'm just waiting for a few tasty things to fill up one of those 7 dollar envelopes.
Sweet! Can't wait to hear your Kruel feedback! :-)
How's China treating you these days xiongdi?
The usual: organizational mafan but short hours, dirty restaurants but great food.
Not every author can cater to every reader. I think taking some of the blood & guts out of any adventure wouldn't be a difficult thing of "flavoring" that any DM with a bit of experience could pull off rather easily.
Having DMed several Nick Logue adventures, most recently "Voyage of the Golden Dragon" (actually, we're only 1/4th through it) and having played in several of his adventures run by my gaming group's other DM, I can say that none of us used his adventures completely as written. We made numerous changes to adapt the adventures to our campaigns, as we do with almost all prepublished product.
Since the OP didn't criticize Nick's creativity or writing skills, only the "flavor" of the adventures, it would seem a minor stretch to do the same thing to eliminate some of the elements that the OP doesn't care for.
To me, pre-published adventures are detailed outlines only--always have been and always will be. They're not novels where you don't have any input on what happens....undesirable elements are easily fixed.
I finally got around to reading E1 yesterday and although it is a bit dark its a great module. I have to say I have really enjoyed everything Nick has written that I have read.
Just wanted to throw in and say I'm a sucker for Logue's work as well. His name on a product pretty much guarantees I'll enjoy it. Even if I don't end up running them all (I'm about to plunge headlong into an AD&D 1e campaign), they're always a good read. Then again, I prefer "the Satanic Rites of Dracula" to LOTR, so I'm an easy sell.
|
|
Whilst I understand the original OP's point of view I've got to say I love Nicholas stuff, both with paizo & wotc (not familiar with his other works). I unfortunately haven't had a chance to run anything of his yet but that should change with the 3rd part of Rise of the Runelords (name escapes me at the moment).
To me, pre-published adventures are detailed outlines only--always have been and always will be. They're not novels where you don't have any input on what happens....undesirable elements are easily fixed.
That's funny that you compare them that way. I personally believe the modules are the "novels" and the actual game play is the "movie". You notice almost no movie exactly matches the novel, but most still have the feel of it and usually try to hit the high points. Likewise, when running a module, I try to keep the feel of the module and hit the high points (BBEG), but may adjust, rearrange, or even remove some of the minor ones.
To me, pre-published adventures are detailed outlines only--always have been and always will be. They're not novels where you don't have any input on what happens....undesirable elements are easily fixed.That's funny that you compare them that way. I personally believe the modules are the "novels" and the actual game play is the "movie". You notice almost no movie exactly matches the novel, but most still have the feel of it and usually try to hit the high points. Likewise, when running a module, I try to keep the feel of the module and hit the high points (BBEG), but may adjust, rearrange, or even remove some of the minor ones.
That's another pretty cool way of looking at it pres man!
|
|
It should also be known that my personal gaming style is all about failure. Tragedy is a powerful storytelling tool.....
.....The most moving heroics (to me at least) are not in overcoming adversity, but rather dealing with the horrific aftermath of a tragedy you were unable to avert, gritting your teeth through the tears and striving to continue the good fight in the face of abject failure and desperation. My favorite real life heroes are people who can admit when they didn't measure up and keep fighting the good fight, long after the battlefield is littered with pieces of their soul. This is my favorite kind of character to play.
This sums up my own personally preferred style of play - where no matter how bad things get, the hero never loses sight of his path or goal and continues on, even if it means sacrificing his own soul for those things and people he loves most.
The tragedy is the most time tested and powerful story theme and everyone can relate to hard times, because we've all experienced them.
It's no wonder I enjoy reading Nick's work all the time!
Gore isn't required to tell a tragedy. It just happens to be a very effective way to SHOW one happening.
Keep on keepin' on Nick. I look forward to your next piece of work.
|
|
So I was sitting here and reading the thread and decided to post my opinion.
I personally enjoy Nick's work. His writing is well done and his encounters are interesting. Chimes at Midnight was one of my favorite adventures (which i think had 3 parts to it, though i can be mistaken on that). on the other hand his horror is well written as well, and if my players decide they want me to run a horror game for halloween or something, at least i have modules now that fit the bill, and rather well at that. The idea of not always winning is a good one in my books, and personally I feel too many stories have the hero(s) winning in the end against odds that make no sense. sometimes the good guys have to compromise.
The fact that he's into theater just reinforces that. as far as i know, tragedies outnumber the other plays by a wide margin, and if not then i was exposed to more of them. even the historical plays are usually depressing. if it gives some context, my favorite play is Richard III, you know, where the main character tells everyone what he's going to do to them, then he sleeps with and/or kills them off anyway, and everyone is surprised. good times...goooood times.
So keep up the good work Nick, and I can't wait to see what comes next.
(Also, I'm still waiting on the East European Dystopic Alice in Wonderland. That's gonna be sweet!)
Creative Director
|
Between launching his own company, helping us start up the Pathfinder Society, and various other crazy projects and events he's got going on, Nick's unfortunately not had the time to write for us since Edge of Anarchy, really. I did have a few conversations with him over Gen Con though, and rest assured he'll be contributing to an adventure path or two in the future. Probably not Legacy of Fire... but beyond that there are a few adventures in particular that I think he'd do VERY well with...
Involving cannibalism and incest?
Involving cannibalism and incest?
If it's a Logue, how can it not?
|
|
I don't have any problems with the gore, and I think Logue is a great writer.
But I do have a problem with too much use of; "Even if the PCs save the day the whole thing is completely messed up."
Are the PCs meant to be saving these people, or dragging out their suffering?
|
It could also be argued that some tragic adventures early on can lead to a bigger payoff down the road.
Some off my favorite adventures were the mega-modules of the 80's. Everyone had a bit of tragic element. Temple of Elemental Evil was corrupting the locals and as soon as that was done and the heroes were enjoying the benefits, the slavers attack and haul off whole towns before the characters can react. Once the slavers are driven off, Lolth convices the giants to destroy a whole nation and starts pulling Oerth into the Abyss.
With every turn of these adventures you see the damage that evil does. Rightous anger is a pretty big motivation for any adventurer and it can motivate almost any alignment. Yes even an evil player could side with a good player to drive out giants from thier homeland.
And no matter how and adventure is writen, the DM is the owner of thier game setting. If things and moods change because that's the way the DM want's it too, that's fine. Story from novels to movies change, modules can be refited easiy too.
|
|
I love adventures featuring graphic, disturbing and otherwise mature content, personally, as long as they're not treated as a trivial matter in-world (i.e. innocents dying is a tragedy, people getting corrupted really pay the price for giving in to their twisted ways, etc).
I feel fantasy RPG adventures, in D&D in particular, have been WAY too tamed and bland since the whole media backlash of the 80's. One of the interesting components of fantasy fiction was the mature content involved, for me, with authors like Moorcock or Leiber or Howard or Lovecraft and many many more.
I want RPG adventuring to be able to embrace mature themes and be able to treat of those topics with more contrast and a different approach, precisely because this would so obviously be "fantasy".
There's been a war going on about Fantasy and its purpose in the literary field for decades between those who see it as a means to emphasize what's fundamentally good and glorious about one's own humanity, and those who see it as a stage in which you could treat of topics that would otherwise be much more offensive to readers when that would not be so obviously fictitious.
Now, I love both traditions and think they both have a part to play and inspire in gaming. We've been playing the light-hearted side of this for a long time now. I'm glad we can get some crisp mature content without resorting to DeCamp lameness through Pathfinder. I hope we'll get more contributions from Nick and others around these lines. This is very much welcome, to me.