So last night my players defeated the Skinsaw Men and currently have one of the mooks and Ironbriar captured. Since they dispelled the Charm spell, Ironbriar offered to tell them about Xanesha, but only in exchange for 12 hours to run. The party refused, and now are trying to decide whether to mete out justice immediately or take him in to the authorities.
Now my party is very socially-inept. In almost all social skills, Ironbriar beats them. He also has clout in the city, while the pcs have none.
Any thoughts on how to handle turning him in to the authorities?
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Another alternative is to suggest they take him back to Sandpoint and let trusted people hold on to him while they finish off the big baddie.
If the players choose to be merciful however, and turn him over to the authorities, I am generally of the feeling that this is allowed with minimum die rolling and hoop jumping. If not the PCs will think this is a punishment and outright kill all prisoners always.
I don't think I agree with Macktacka. I don't think you should be too easy on the PCs in a situation like this just because you're afraid they'll start killing all prisoners out of spite. Sooner or later, the consequences of that attitude should come back to bite them.
The PCs should be willing to see the reality of things:
1. If they try to turn in Ironbriar without enough proof, they will lose. It's just not really an option for them if it comes down to "their word against Ironbriar's". In my opinion, the best they can hope for in the short term is to be locked up but not actually killed. After Ironbriar flees the city, the authorities realize the PCs were telling the truth and let them go. This may mean that Xanesha skips town as well, to be fought another day.
2. If they take the time to decipher his notes, then they're golden. They can turn him in without worrying (much). They key is to turn in the evidence first, without Ironbriar there to defend himself. Then, after the authorities have been enlightned, they can bring Ironbriar in or reveal his location without worrying about him sweet-talking or bluffing his way out.
3. In any case, if they don't cut a deal with Ironbriar, they're going into the fight with Xanesha blind. If they're okay with that, so be it. He was an evil jerk before he got charmed, so many good parties will probably have issues with releasing him. But if they get schooled by Xanesha, they only have themselves to blame.
Any thoughts on how to handle turning him in to the authorities?
Justice might have well placed friends in Manigmar, so even if he is arrested & juged, maybe he is only exiled - to served a ten year term at Fort Ranick, were he would make a come back as a traitor!
Good suggestions..thank you. I've got a plan for next session now, just have to see if the pcs decide to execute him right away or wait.
also, those friends aren't going to be happy:)
In my game there was a scene where Tsuto was actually judged for its crimes (the murder of his noble father) by a concil of nobles in Manigmar . The judge was... you know who! It was a cool scene since one of the PC was the main witness.
also, those friends aren't going to be happy:)
Well, maybe his friends will suggest to send them to a certain doom at fort Ranick!
My player's PCs roped in some witnesses of high reputation (backed by Sarenrae cult) and had them actually witness Ironbriar's human-sacrifice ritual (which the PCs then interrupted). That was enough to get Ironbriar hanged. Revealing the plot against the Mayor helped too. But they're socially savvy PCs. For the other kind, I'd strongly suggest killing Ironbriar, disposing of the body and skipping town! It's not pretty, but it works.
You can cue Hook Mountain by having Shalelu contact the PCs. I gave her some premonitory dreams about her father's safety, and it wasn't too hard to get the PCs interested. Having the Mayor send them is not a good hook anyway, in my opinion; they know the guy is a greedy skinflint, and they owe him nothing, so why should they do him a favor? *He* should do *them* a favor, and boy, Hook Mountain is not a favor!
If you rule both that the PCs can't kill and run, and that they will lose if they try a more lawful situation, you've put them in a no-win situation. The one absolute of my own group's game contract is that the GM must not put the PCs into a no-win situation, so I would avoid this at all costs. If the PCs are the kind of people who must succeed within the law, there should be a way for them to do it.
Mary
If you rule both that the PCs can't kill and run, and that they will lose if they try a more lawful situation, you've put them in a no-win situation.
I think the OP's main concern was that if the PCs didn't get the option to win either way in this case, they would make a habit of always killing prisoners in all situations.
I think in this case, it makes more sense for a "socially inept" group to kill and run if they're unlikely to want to cut a deal.
But I don't know how to solve the whole "killing prisoners is habit forming" problem. If you give the players a bit of a close call on their way out of town, maybe that will make the point that they shouldn't kill every prisoner.
Actually, I was just looking for brainstorming on how other GMs would handle it. Just to get some ideas. I have the feeling that the PCs are going to whack Ironbriar because they think that he was a murderer prior to being charmed. (They're right of course)
I'm fine with whatever they do, I just wanted ideas should they turn him in.
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I don't think I agree with Macktacka. I don't think you should be too easy on the PCs in a situation like this just because you're afraid they'll start killing all prisoners out of spite. Sooner or later, the consequences of that attitude should come back to bite them.
The PCs should be willing to see the reality of things:
1. If they try to turn in Ironbriar without enough proof, they will lose. It's just not really an option for them if it comes down to "their word against Ironbriar's". In my opinion, the best they can hope for in the short term is to be locked up but not actually killed. After Ironbriar flees the city, the authorities realize the PCs were telling the truth and let them go. This may mean that Xanesha skips town as well, to be fought another day.
2. If they take the time to decipher his notes, then they're golden. They can turn him in without worrying (much). They key is to turn in the evidence first, without Ironbriar there to defend himself. Then, after the authorities have been enlightned, they can bring Ironbriar in or reveal his location without worrying about him sweet-talking or bluffing his way out.
3. In any case, if they don't cut a deal with Ironbriar, they're going into the fight with Xanesha blind. If they're okay with that, so be it. He was an evil jerk before he got charmed, so many good parties will probably have issues with releasing him. But if they get schooled by Xanesha, they only have themselves to blame.
Without proof? What about the stretched out human faces on his wall???
Without proof? What about the stretched out human faces on his wall???
The faces are at the sawmill, right? (I don't have my book in front of me). Can the PCs prove that Ironbriar really killed those people, without using divination magic? He might be able to get away with saying they were decorative tribal fetishes that he purchased from a wandering Shoanti barbarian for their artistic merit.
My whole point is that Ironbriar's high status makes it hard for the PCs to level accusations against him. It depends on the situation and the audience.
If Ironbriar is caught covered in gore and chomping on someone's liver, then he's going to have a tough time weaseling out of it.
But if the PCs accuse him in front of people that would normally respect Ironbriar, they face an uphill battle.
For example, in many situations, Ironbriar could probably Bluff/Intimidate his way out of being arrested by "Beat Cops" by denying everything the PCs say and leveling counter-charges at them. The beat cops would probably release Ironbriar on his "own recognizance" and might even want to detain the PCs, just in case. To the average beat cop, that probably would seem like the safest/smartest move. Unless the PCs have overwhelming evidence of Inronbriar's guilt.
Actually, I was just looking for brainstorming on how other GMs would handle it. Just to get some ideas. I have the feeling that the PCs are going to whack Ironbriar because they think that he was a murderer prior to being charmed. (They're right of course)
I'm fine with whatever they do, I just wanted ideas should they turn him in.
Yeah, I think the key for the PCs if they want to turn him in is to produce the evidence first. If they can get the mook to squeal, that would help. But the main thing is physical evidence. They could drop that off, and then play dumb as to where Ironbriar actually is. Once they're sure the authorities are on their side, they could bring him in or just helpfully mention "he might be here, tied up with the 50 feet of rope from my character sheet..."
Just because the PCs don't have huge bonuses to the CHA skills, it doesn't mean they can't use INT & WIS to figure out how to handle the situation. Sense Motive is a wisdom skill after all.
I always try to keep in mind that sometimes the PCs know and remember more than the players do.
So occasionally, I'll give them a hint of some kind if they make a widsom or intelligence check. "You suddenly realize that would be a bad idea because..."
this does of course assume that PCs actually have no other options than turning him over, or executing him themselves.
They could schoose some form of 'poetic justice', like perhaps handing him over to acquaintances of the murder victims or their relatives, or simply remove him from the equation for some time, say by shipping him "off" to somewhere, drugged safely in a barrel. Or sealing him in a catacomb entrance with a spoon to dig himself out...
Anecdotal commentary :
Group of mine did that some years ago, drugging the culprit, putting him in a barrel of "salted pork" and having him shipped to Calimsham with a ship leaving harbour the same day. Having his tongue pierced and then putting a (mangled) padlock through the hole did not really help him explain the situation or use social skills until he was far out to sea. Neither did having been branded (literally) as a child molester. The mook did still get of lightly for high treason and attempted mass-murder....
All a matter of player initiative and.... attitude, I guess
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Without proof? What about the stretched out human faces on his wall???The faces are at the sawmill, right? (I don't have my book in front of me). Can the PCs prove that Ironbriar really killed those people, without using divination magic? He might be able to get away with saying they were decorative tribal fetishes that he purchased from a wandering Shoanti barbarian for their artistic merit.
My whole point is that Ironbriar's high status makes it hard for the PCs to level accusations against him. It depends on the situation and the audience.
If Ironbriar is caught covered in gore and chomping on someone's liver, then he's going to have a tough time weaseling out of it.
But if the PCs accuse him in front of people that would normally respect Ironbriar, they face an uphill battle.
For example, in many situations, Ironbriar could probably Bluff/Intimidate his way out of being arrested by "Beat Cops" by denying everything the PCs say and leveling counter-charges at them. The beat cops would probably release Ironbriar on his "own recognizance" and might even want to detain the PCs, just in case. To the average beat cop, that probably would seem like the safest/smartest move. Unless the PCs have overwhelming evidence of Inronbriar's guilt.
I think if you bring in the law and show them the stretched out skins on his wall that pretty much takes care of it. I guess you can make it as hard or easy as you choose. I think that a resonable person would way - people in masks dead all over the place, show them the faces, the mask Ironbriar was wearing let them search the whole place (to include what they find on the desk) and the guy goes down no matter what he says.
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He also has his unholy symbol, and there is his coded journal. Last resort, if he tries to play the B of 7 off as a social club, there's Aldern's journal and his missing wife. Given the nature of the cult, why don't the PCs bring in one of the goodly churches? If they show their evidence to a local paladin, and then bring in the guards, I'd expect they'd be OK.
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He also has his unholy symbol, and there is his coded journal. Last resort, if he tries to play the B of 7 off as a social club, there's Aldern's journal and his missing wife. Given the nature of the cult, why don't the PCs bring in one of the goodly churches? If they show their evidence to a local paladin, and then bring in the guards, I'd expect they'd be OK.
That is a good point. In my game they killed them all and then just left the bodies to be discovered later. They told the Mayor what was going on after they completed the next part and had evidence that the mayor was on the hit list.
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we just played out the EL10 ritual break-up scene. There was much carnage,
Smack! but at full hpoints and a crazy athletics roll to absorb most of the damage to nonlethal.
So now I have to figure out the response time for him to muster his connections and contact the Mistress for retaliation vs. the PCs own attempts to curtail his influence.
So last night my players defeated the Skinsaw Men and currently have one of the mooks and Ironbriar captured. Since they dispelled the Charm spell, Ironbriar offered to tell them about Xanesha, but only in exchange for 12 hours to run. The party refused, and now are trying to decide whether to mete out justice immediately or take him in to the authorities.
Now my party is very socially-inept. In almost all social skills, Ironbriar beats them. He also has clout in the city, while the pcs have none.
Any thoughts on how to handle turning him in to the authorities?
My party figured out Ironbriar was charmed. One guy then asked the group, "Anyone have a dispel magic? No?" He then tossed him down the logsplitter.
My party figured out Ironbriar was charmed. They cast protection from law on him, and immediately told him that he'd been mind-controlled into doing all sorts of evil acts. He realized that they had a lot of evidence against him, so he allowed himself to be bound (since the suppression effect was short-lived) and they took him to the temple of Abadar, where the enchantment was dispelled.
He found a friendly priest, deliberately failed a casting of Abadar's truthtelling, and explained how he had been duped by Xanesha. He swore to find her and bring her to justice. Then he was released.
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I circumvented the Justice problem with a deal with the devil options. If confronted with a kill first, ask questions later option, players will tend to take the path of least resistance.
I refused to give them that option. I instead ran Ironbriar as a psychotic nutjob vigilante who masterminded a cult who went after criminals which the law couldn't touch either because the case was too small or the criminal was too big. On the other hand he was also a competent justice and cared deeply about Magnimar but was being arm-twisted into the Sihedron plot by blackmail from Xanesha.
He had quite a presence during the Magnimar arc, asking questions, handing out 'helpful leads', providing the PCs with lodging and generally being an all around nice guy.
When the PCs finally realised what they were up against and confronted him, there was an awkward moment where he dared them to kill him after they slapped him around. After all, he was too big to just disappear. If they killed him, he had no doubt that the law would find them. If the PCs revealed him as the Skinsaw Man, he was under no illusion he would be found mad and locked up... but his cases would be overturned and worse men would walk free.
A damned if you do damned if you don't moment.
In the end, he used them against Xanesha.
The PCs know he's a rat, but he came out of the Skinsaw murders smelling of roses.
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Of course, to make matters worse, they walked in on him in the middle of an 'operation' on Nualia (who they had talked some sense into before she was packed off to Magnimar for trial). Walking into a room with a bloody and screaming Aasimar and Ironbriar casually tossing her arm to them when they entered caused more than a few pale faces.