I've found the primary critique of D&D (in my area) is that it is too simple... That, and/or it isn't flexible enough.I totally agree. When I am back in Canada I will probably switch to Hero System or Gurps.
The flexibility is probably my biggest criticism of the game. I don't like 4E, when I first heard about it I was all jazzed about it because I liked Feat Trees. Give me a totally different way of building fighter, I'm there. Make my Scythe wielding dwarf different from the axe wielding elf, I'm there. I had great hope but I have seen that hope fade, 1 hp at a time. My hope is now like -30 hp, CON drained to 0.
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It all boils down to the fact that they are using the "slow gaming" experiences of a few mathematically challenged players to justify overhauling the system. The sad thing is that they are badmouthing the system they created because they have to sell a bunch of 4E books in June to keep their jobs. I want to hear some concrete reasons why 4E will be good enough for me to spend my money and time on it. I don't want to hear what amounts to a mudslinging campaign against 3.5, to make it easier to sell me on the idea of 4.0
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The primary critique of D&D? Its a roll playing game, not a role playing game.GAH! Argument by cliche.
... but this one is all too accurate.
To me the rules should be there to add a consistent means of adjudication for situations that arise as the story unfolds.
I want to play the role or tell the story.
I do not want to play the rules. When I hear that a rule is being dumped because it slows things down - which power attack does - then I cheer.
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It all boils down to the fact that they are using the "slow gaming" experiences of a few mathematically challenged players to justify overhauling the system. The sad thing is that they are badmouthing the system they created because they have to sell a bunch of 4E books in June to keep their jobs. I want to hear some concrete reasons why 4E will be good enough for me to spend my money and time on it. I don't want to hear what amounts to a mudslinging campaign against 3.5, to make it easier to sell me on the idea of 4.0
I hate to say this but there a far more "mathematically challenged" gamers out there than you might think.
D&D was a wargame. Its players came from that stock. Now the most popular games are electronic. That is where the modern gamer comes from.
Games with lots of rules are great for old school gamers because that is what they like. If D&D is going to live and grow it will need to have rules that are lighter and more flexible.
That is reality.
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I still fail to see how power attack is such an abyssmal feat that it needs to be removed from the game. How hard is it to subtract 2 from your attack roll and add 4 to your damage roll? This is a problem with an indecisive player, not a problem with a feat. This same player would most likely take forever to choose which spell to cast if he were playing a wizard,and you obvioulsy couldn't blame that on the complexity of power attack. The player needs to learn to decide what to do on someone else's turn and follow through with it, rather than metagaming excessivley to squeeze a few extra points of damage out of his turn. This also fails to address the fact that they are badmouthing 3.5 instead of showing us some really good 4.0 mechanics to get us excited about the new edition. My guess is that the 4.0 mechanics aren't as good as they say they are so they have to make us think 3.5 is total crap so we will be clamoring for 4.0. Shame on them.
That is reality.
I think this is the crux of why I keep seeming to butt heads with you. I agree that our current reality is one where the math skills are not that great among all players. I dislike that fact, as I firmly believe basic math skills are integral to a life of improvement and enrichment.
Philosophy aside, I feel a drive to assist those around me improve their skills (when I can), and introducing new players to a game with math can certainly be a venue for that goal. I have often sat down with a new player in a variety of games and helped them figure out the math trends or underlying algorithms, getting them more familiar with the math, andbuilding their confidence and skills in using math.
I do this for a selfish reason, to make the game move faster for me and my own personal enjoyment, and to add a little to someone else's skillset. I had players menotr me when I was n00b, and I take opportunities to help others up too. I could choose to sit back and accept a distasteful fact, or I could work to change my reality. After a few months of gaming, more than 90% of the people I've gamed with over the decades have easily handled any math involved. Not all that is due to me, but some is. And for those who have trouble with math, most of the time I and my fellow players have helped them out and offered some guidance.
So I exhort you, and every gamer, to change our reality, and improve ourselves and out acquaintances in some small way every day. It will make your game better, and it may even make your world better.
D&D was a wargame. Its players came from that stock. Now the most popular games are electronic. That is where the modern gamer comes from.
...
That is reality.
That is your opinion. That is your preception. That is your experience. Try being a player in a game run by a DM that runs differently.
EDIT:
... but this one is all too accurate.The primary critique of D&D? Its a roll playing game, not a role playing game.GAH! Argument by cliche.
Do you believe that this will change with 4E? If so, please describe what previews, spoilers, snipits, etc make you feel this way.
IMO, 4E is going to be even more then way: more mini-centric, more tactical options, more maneuvers, more combat focus (just look at the wizard, they're not generalists anymore, they're evokers/illusionists).
I still fail to see how power attack is such an abyssmal feat that it needs to be removed from the game. How hard is it to subtract 2 from your attack roll and add 4 to your damage roll? This is a problem with an indecisive player, not a problem with a feat. This same player would most likely take forever to choose which spell to cast if he were playing a wizard,and you obvioulsy couldn't blame that on the complexity of power attack. The player needs to learn to decide what to do on someone else's turn and follow through with it, rather than metagaming excessivley to squeeze a few extra points of damage out of his turn. This also fails to address the fact that they are badmouthing 3.5 instead of showing us some really good 4.0 mechanics to get us excited about the new edition. My guess is that the 4.0 mechanics aren't as good as they say they are so they have to make us think 3.5 is total crap so we will be clamoring for 4.0. Shame on them.
Emphasis mine.
QFT *Stands up and applauds*
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So I exhort you, and every gamer, to change our reality, and improve ourselves and out acquaintances in some small way every day. It will make your game better, and it may even make your world better.
That is a fine sentiment. I agree with it whole heartedly.
However, WotC should not be skewered for changing rules that it sees as cumbersome.
The argument against the removal of power attack should not be - gamers should be able to figure out that rule because I can. That's not good enough in the face of the evidence that it does slow down play.
Besides, power attack is one of the most useless feats there is.
Lowering your chance to hit reduces your overall damage output. I have seen the numbers run on a stat analyzer and using more than 2 points of PA pretty much screws a FTRs ability to drop monsters.
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Lowering your chance to hit reduces your overall damage output. I have seen the numbers run on a stat analyzer and using more than 2 points of PA pretty much screws a FTRs ability to drop monsters.
That depends entirely on the AC of the creatures being attacked...
From my perspective, I don't care. We have only had a couple of characters who ever used Power Attack - one was someone who just went all out every swing. That's just how he wanted to play it, and we are, fortunately, a group that can accomodate (and often emphasize) non-optimal characters.
The big problem with this (for me) is the rationale and the way it's being done. As with all else, and as has been said many times, if this is the best reason they can come up with that a new version is needed, then it's ridiculous.
It's like saying that Dubyah went to war in Iraq because of WMD. Everyone knows it was for oil, but he can't say that. :)
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So I exhort you, and every gamer, to change our reality, and improve ourselves and out acquaintances in some small way every day. It will make your game better, and it may even make your world better.That is a fine sentiment. I agree with it whole heartedly.
However, WotC should not be skewered for changing rules that it sees as cumbersome.
The argument against the removal of power attack should not be - gamers should be able to figure out that rule because I can. That's not good enough in the face of the evidence that it does slow down play.
Besides, power attack is one of the most useless feats there is.
Lowering your chance to hit reduces your overall damage output. I have seen the numbers run on a stat analyzer and using more than 2 points of PA pretty much screws a FTRs ability to drop monsters.
Then suggest to the player that when he uses power attack, it will be a 2 point power attack by default. Have him figure that into his attacks in a separate line on his character sheet. Then, if he really needs to power attack for more in a desperate situation he can, but the default power attack will already be figured into his attack an damage rolls most of the time. It's a slight porblem with a simple solution that is being blown out of proportion to further justify 4th edition. That's the most disturbing thing about the bolggers comments.
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Given that full attacks are (reportedly) not going to be occuring in 4.0, one of the 'reasons' for getting rid of the 3.5 version of Power Attack (that it gave some people headaches figuring it into full round attacks) looks like it may have gone away.
Because subtracting 5 from each subsequent attack is too hard?
The problem comes from players trying to maximize their chance to hit with their damage. Which, since they don't know the AC of their enemy, is generally a waste of time.
My thought is that if you are sitting and trying to optimize your average damage per round, you are probably taking too long and will lose your turn. In a group of 4 players and a DM you have 4 other peoples turns (3 players and the DM) in which to decide what you want to do. Now situations will change during those turns but by the time your turn comes up, you should have a pretty good idea as to what you are going to do and how much you want to put into Power Attack. I just don't see the problem.
I just don't see the problem.
I wonder if the wrong questions are being asked. Whenever a new rule is posted on the WotC boards, the general response seems to be "what was wrong with the old rule"? Maybe the question should be "what do we gain with the new rule?"
We have a player in our group that every time he decides to use his power attack, he takes a handful of seconds doing the mental math to calculate all the pluses/minuses that go into his rolls. Could he do things to have it all in mind when his turn comes around? Sure he could, but he doesn't. So, it's usually a 5-10 second wait for him to sort it all out before he rolls. It's not an interminable wait, so we don't force the issue. (We certainly joke with him an awful lot about it - but we're all friends and we try to keep the game as friendly as possible.)
So maybe it's not so much that there's a problem with Power Attack, but maybe WotC sees it as a way to speed things up. Sure it works the way it is. But without it (or by changing it) combat will go that much faster. And if you shave 10s off every fighter's action in a combat, you may save a few minutes in each battle.
Now they probably have a whole host of things that they've done to streamline combat, with Power Attack being one of many. So in the end, they may think they can shave 10+ minutes off of an encounter. So if you want faster combat, this may be a simplification that will work for you. I don't mind the old way, but then I'm not complaining out the length of combat.
Greg
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Besides, power attack is one of the most useless feats there is.
Lowering your chance to hit reduces your overall damage output. I have seen the numbers run on a stat analyzer and using more than 2 points of PA pretty much screws a FTRs ability to drop monsters.
Power Attack is one of the top feats in the game. Used with a two-handed weapon and a high-hit bonus character, you can deal more damage reliably with Power Attack than with any other melee build - sneak builds and lance builds fail the reliability test. That's speaking from a probability basis.
Generally speaking, the optimum power attack number tends to be one that leaves your initial attack hitting on a "2".
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Besides, power attack is one of the most useless feats there is.
Lowering your chance to hit reduces your overall damage output. I have seen the numbers run on a stat analyzer and using more than 2 points of PA pretty much screws a FTRs ability to drop monsters.
Power Attack is one of the top feats in the game. Used with a two-handed weapon and a high-hit bonus character, you can deal more damage reliably with Power Attack than with any other melee build - sneak builds and lance builds fail the reliability test. That's speaking from a probability basis.
Generally speaking, the optimum power attack number tends to be one that leaves your initial attack hitting on a "2".
There are very few situations where a high level character can use more than 2 points of PA and still hit on the roll of a 2.
Now - the dragon with +45 to hit and PA. That thing will kill PCs.
Furthermore a high level PC can't afford to miss in any given round since most combats above 12th are over in 3 to 5 rounds.
Let's agree to disagree.
[looks around]
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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There are very few situations where a high level character can use more than 2 points of PA and still hit on the roll of a 2.
Now - the dragon with +45 to hit and PA. That thing will kill PCs.
Furthermore a high level PC can't afford to miss in any given round since most combats above 12th are over in 3 to 5 rounds.
Your mileage obviously varies. Many foes have ACs that are in the 20s to low 30s even at high levels. A good Power Attack build is built around to-hit bonus, and that can be cranked absurdly high. It's common for my holy liberator to have in excess of +35 to hit, and if I weren't using power attack, much of that would go to waste.
I've played a number of power attack builds. They work, and work well. It's fine to not like em or want to play em or not have them work for you, but Power Attack isn't a weak feat.
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Cory - rules that require a work around to use should be revised. That is the heart of the matter.
This isn't a work around. It's a nice way of telling the problem player to get on with it already because other people are waiting to take their turns. Instead of having him hem and haw about taking a power attack of -4 or -5, just say pick -2 (or another number) and go with it or, don't use it at all. Once again this is a problem with an indecisive player taking too much time on his turn. At the beginning of the session, you need to suggest to their players that they decide what they are going to do on someone else's turn and then follow through with it. All power attack, flanking, etc. calculations should be done, and the final number or numbers should be in your head or written down on paper. Spells that you are going to cast that you aren't familiar with should be looked up and ready to go. There aren't mechanical fixes for indecision. This problem can only be dealt with by actively preparing for your PC's actions before your turn.
Funny how some of the "problems" with game play speed could have been addressed if a section on how to be a good player had been included in the Player's Handbook. All those little tips like coming with your actions before your turn in combat, having various combat options already written down for a verity of broad situations, have the page numbers of your odd spell option written down on the sheet next to the spell's name, and so on. Do you think they will improve on that in 4e?
Also I would have thought is one was obvious, if you need a calculator get a calculator and learn how to use it swiftly. Preferably one of those multi-line display ones that you can visually double check before you mash enter. It's what I used to do and still do sometimes for rolls that involve large quantities of d6s, more then 20 of them. It's like saying the game is to hard because you can't understand the words, assuming they printed in your native language to make the assumption about literacy valid. Which will be the next 'problem' they will have to address, the diminishing willingness to read. I mean "readings hard".
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I mean "readings hard".
"One of the great things about books is sometimes there are some fantastic pictures." --George W. Bush, Jan. 3, 2000
Sorry, had to sneak that in there. :)
But you're right... how low should should we really let this lowest common denominator go? Is it really too much to expect that people will read the books they need to to play the game?
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For the generation that 4th edition is geared towards, it might be asking too much for them to read the rules. It seems to be too difficult for them to subtract two from one number and add four to another number. All kidding aside, I haven't read every line in the 3.5 PHB or DMG, but I have a working knowledge of the rules, and a general idea of where to find rules I may not be that familiar with. I don't think it's too much to expect players who have played the game more than a few months to be familiar with the rules, and be able to do the basic math necessary for the mechanics of their character. The creators of 4.0 may not have those basic assumptions in mind for the new game.
All kidding aside, I haven't read every line in the 3.5 PHB or DMG, but I have a working knowledge of the rules, and a general idea of where to find rules I may not be that familiar with.Heck, I own TWO 3.5 rule books (the psionics one, and the Masque of the Red Death relaunch)... and I've RUN 3.5 games...
That sounds like the games I play in. More often than not the system is really incidental and it wouldn't matter which one we used. We aren't terribly rules centric.
Cory - rules that require a work around to use should be revised. That is the heart of the matter.
I think it's more a matter of players that need a workaround. ;) Power Attack really is a no-brainer of a feat -- if you're having an easy time hitting your target, use it, otherwise don't. The extra handful of points of damage you'll do either way are almost never going to be encounter-making or encounter-breaking. If a player is getting hung up on it, it's because they're easily mired by minutiae, not because it's a hard feat to use.
Once upon a time, players who dithered about what they were going to do on a turn were told "You hesitate too long and lose your action this round." Have we become such a bunch of wimps that this is considered too hard?
-The Gneech
...Once upon a time, players who dithered about what they were going to do on a turn were told "You hesitate too long and lose your action this round." Have we become such a bunch of wimps that this is considered too hard?
-The Gneech
That's how we operate when I play. We don't have a stop-watch or egg-timer but if you don't at least have an idea as to what you are going to do then you get maybe 10 seconds to come up with something. If you have an idea of what you want to do then you get a little extra time (especially if you need some info from the DM).
But you're right... how low should should we really let this lowest common denominator go?
I'm going to relate an experience I had at work...I've been having to idiot-proof this website that I've been working on for our customers and finally (finally!) last night got to put it up. I got pretty much told (before my boss said "Hell no") to change it back because said owner of the company couldn't figure out how to enter a code into a box and click on the submit button (despite the instructions being in big bright letters and very clear and succinct).
Sometimes the lowest common denominator is the one who writes your paycheck.
Good luck with that idiot-proofing. I have found that they will just build a better idiot.
Yeah, I keep tryin', and they keep coming to the website...!
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Cory - rules that require a work around to use should be revised. That is the heart of the matter.I think it's more a matter of players that need a workaround. ;) Power Attack really is a no-brainer of a feat -- if you're having an easy time hitting your target, use it, otherwise don't. The extra handful of points of damage you'll do either way are almost never going to be encounter-making or encounter-breaking. If a player is getting hung up on it, it's because they're easily mired by minutiae, not because it's a hard feat to use.
Once upon a time, players who dithered about what they were going to do on a turn were told "You hesitate too long and lose your action this round." Have we become such a bunch of wimps that this is considered too hard?
-The Gneech
For some people it causes a delay. It is not because they cannot do math - some folks take time to work through their options.
On top of that - you can't skip people and expect them to remain your friends.
For some people it causes a delay. It is not because they cannot do math - some folks take time to work through their options.
On top of that - you can't skip people and expect them to remain your friends.
I really wish people would take responsibility for their own actions... And I am not referring to you crosswiredmind.
But just because some people cause delays with Power Attack is no reason to blame Power Attack. If I were to drive my car straight into a brick wall, simply because I couldn't decide to turn right, left, or stop, does not mean I can blame the car or the car manufacturer.
You want to claim Power Attack causes your game to slow down? Great. Having never witnessed your game, I can't argue that point. But just because your friends can't decide what to do with their Power Attack is no reason to say the feat is a problem.
I'll grant you that Power Attack may be the reason your game slows down, your dog ran away, and you keep loosing hair.
But that doesn't mean Power Attack is a problem anywhere else in the world.
...you can't skip people and expect them to remain your friends.
If they don't remain your friends because you skip their turn occasionally when they are indecisive, they never were your friends.
Sometimes gamers attribute too much social connection to their gaming acquaintances. I know people I would game with but not hang out with. I am fortunate because my recent gaming groups have either been composed of friends or have allowed me to make new friendships. But I am quick to recognize, there are friends, and there are gaming buddies.
I am now tempted to invent an RPG that uses 'Log Tables', just to freak the kids out.
Too late. DC Heroes and Torg beat ya too it. Of course, the same guy worked on both of them.
Once upon a time, players who dithered about what they were going to do on a turn were told "You hesitate too long and lose your action this round." Have we become such a bunch of wimps that this is considered too hard?-The Gneech
Amen to that buddy. One of my DM had a six second count, but he managed a table of twelve PCs plus cohorts. No one found it unfair because one round of combat otherwise would last 30 minutes at least. And guess what, it was always the same guys who lost their turns...
Bran
I'm going to relate an experience I had at work...I've been having to idiot-proof this website that I've been working on for our customers and finally (finally!) last night got to put it up. I got pretty much told (before my boss said "Hell no") to change it back because said owner of the company couldn't figure out how to enter a code into a box and click on the submit button (despite the instructions being in big bright letters and very clear and succinct).
Sometimes the lowest common denominator is the one who writes your paycheck.
LOL
On top of that - you can't skip people and expect them to remain your friends.
1) Hold action does not equal skip. They can act at any point in time after their lost init. They just go slightly later.
2) You are the table manager. If you can't manage the table, what are you doing behind the screen? Telling new gamers for an RPGA event that you have a ground rule that they have to declare what they're doing within 1 minute of you saying that it's their turn is good table management. It lets people know what is expected of them; if they can't handle that minimum responsibility, then how do you expect them to show up with character sheets that are correct?
3) How is letting people walk all over you and take advantage of you good for a "friendship?"
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Here's a very simple solution to the player who just can't decide how much to power attack for while everyone else twiddles their thumbs. I think it was even mentioned in the D&D for Dummies books. Everytime you get some bonuses to hit, regardless of the source, roll it into power attack. If you get a +1 from haste, +1 from bless, and +2 for flanking, do a +4 power attack. Your attack bonus doesn't change, and you just add +8 to your damage roll if you connect. Easy, peasy. This is not a workaround of the feat. It is a workaround for a player who is indecisive, metagames excessively, or is mathematically challenged. This way it's a no brainer for how much to power attack for, and the math is dirt simple.
Here's a very simple solution to the player who just can't decide how much to power attack for while everyone else twiddles their thumbs. I think it was even mentioned in the D&D for Dummies books. Everytime you get some bonuses to hit, regardless of the source, roll it into power attack. If you get a +1 from haste, +1 from bless, and +2 for flanking, do a +4 power attack. Your attack bonus doesn't change, and you just add +8 to your damage roll if you connect. Easy, peasy. This is not a workaround of the feat. It is a workaround for a player who is indecisive, metagames excessively, or is mathematically challenged. This way it's a no brainer for how much to power attack for, and the math is dirt simple.
So 4e actually is targeted at those for whom the tips in D&D for Dummies were too difficult? :))
On top of that - you can't skip people and expect them to remain your friends.
Well, see, that's the thing. I can and do -- and the people whom I've skipped, -did- stay my friends. And to be honest, as someone said, if they'd stop being my friends because I ruled against them in a RPG session, they weren't really my friends to begin with and I'm better off without 'em.
I don't want to pick on you about this, but to me it's an important point.
-The Gneech
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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*shrug*
The whole thing seems like a debate of automatic v. manual transmission. I suppose car makers could decide to make every single car manual transmission and rely upon the skill of the drivers to properly operate the vehicles. And there are many people who prefer the additional element of control that the manual transmission provides.
But for many people, the convenience of automatic transmission exceeds the value they place on the additional level of control.
I have a hard time judging which of these preferences is "right". Market forces indicate that convenience is preferred by a larger group of people given that manual transmission cars are becoming more difficult to find.
Bottom line: power attack does slow down the game for a set of people. Any additional complexity will slow down the game for some set of people. The question is whether the value of the complexity outweighs the loss in speed. In 3e, where a fighter or barbarian has very few things to do during an attack, I'd say the complexity probably does add something meaningful and is worth the cost. In the magical world of 4e, where the fighter can do a red kobold drop kick or a super karate belt slap, it's entirely possible that such complexity adds much less value.
Or, put differently, this is basically the same old THAC0 argument from 2e to 3e. Yes, yes, I know that you are mathematically gifted and you never found THAC0 to be very hard and could calculate it in your head up to 7 decimal places. Both your mother and I could not be prouder of your fantastic mathematical prowess, certainly this skill has carried you far in life. But for poor ignorant slobs like myself, THAC0 was unnecessarily complicated for what it was meant to do (i.e., adjudicate one of the most common mechanics in the game), a pain in the ass to explain to new players, and just not very intuitive.
Power attack isn't nearly the b@#&@ that THAC0 was, but I'm willing to entertain the notion that the fighter and barbarian could be given something else to do that gave them meaningful choices and was easier to use. What is that? Damned if I know.
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1) Hold action does not equal skip. They can act at any point in time after their lost init. They just go slightly later.
Yes, but then conditions have changed and the whole "figure out my options" thing starts again.
2) You are the table manager. If you can't manage the table, what are you doing behind the screen? Telling new gamers for an RPGA event that you have a ground rule that they have to declare what they're doing within 1 minute of you saying that it's their turn is good table management. It lets people know what is expected of them; if they can't handle that minimum responsibility, then how do you expect them to show up with character sheets that are correct?
RPGA judges are not allowed to use ground rules or house rules. You play by THE rules.
3) How is letting people walk all over you and take advantage of you good for a "friendship?"
Taking too much time to figure out what they want to do on their turn does not rise to the level of "walk all over" or "take advantage".
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On top of that - you can't skip people and expect them to remain your friends.Well, see, that's the thing. I can and do -- and the people whom I've skipped, -did- stay my friends. And to be honest, as someone said, if they'd stop being my friends because I ruled against them in a RPG session, they weren't really my friends to begin with and I'm better off without 'em.
I don't want to pick on you about this, but to me it's an important point.
-The Gneech
I am glad its important to you. I am glad that you have found an approach that works for you and your friends.
I would never do it because it does not fit with my personality or the way I interact at the game table.
I come back to this - if there is an easier way to get the same effect without the lag or the need for heavy handed GMery then why not revise it and move on.
2) You are the table manager. If you can't manage the table, what are you doing behind the screen? Telling new gamers for an RPGA event that you have a ground rule that they have to declare what they're doing within 1 minute of you saying that it's their turn is good table management. It lets people know what is expected of them; if they can't handle that minimum responsibility, then how do you expect them to show up with character sheets that are correct?
RPGA judges are not allowed to use ground rules or house rules. You play by THE rules.
Then the problem seems to be that the RPGA rules do not address munchkins and morons sitting there figuring out the permutations of shifting their power attack while other people wait.
Either way.
You win.
Power attack is toast.