I found Star Wars d20 WONDERFUL for emulating the material Lucas cited as the source of Star Wars (Buck Rogers, Flash Gordon, etc. - the old Sci Fi Serials, not the TV series), but mediocre for Star Wars itself... Haven't played SAGA Edition yet.
Agreed, which is why I have doubts about how some of the saga rules will work for D&D.
What worries me about things like monopoly, is when I was a kid we learned to play it. It actually taught colours, math, addition, subtraction, don't feed the baby the top hat, etc.
Now it teaches how to use an ATM card.
I am a luddite apparently
You and me both.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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What worries me about things like monopoly, is when I was a kid we learned to play it. It actually taught colours, math, addition, subtraction, don't feed the baby the top hat, etc.Now it teaches how to use an ATM card.
I am a luddite apparently
Well, to be fair, monopoly is supposed to be a game, not an educational tool. To the extent that it performs the later function at the cost of being fun, it's kinda failing at what it is trying to do. It'd be like complaining that you don't have to start your car like Fred Flinstone, and as a result, you are getting less exercise. That may well be true, but the general function of a car is to get you places, not to provide exercise.
But, let's assume that part of the value of Monopoly is the educational experience. Did you learn about interest rates? That's a core part of monopoly, the ability to mortgage the properties and then pay interest on them (or maybe it's a discount on the face value to turn them up). In any event, that aspect of monopoly is normally glossed over; and with good reason, it's complicated. So, to that extent, Monopoly failed in that you didn't learn anything and you weren't playing it by the RAW.
I haven't played the new monopoly, and I have no idea what it is like. Maybe counting money is an outdated skill. Maybe all the ATM card does is replace the cash itself and you must still calculate the amounts due. I have no idea, but it's really hard to say much without having played it or even seen it.
What if it was assumed everyone had Power Attack? You just assume that anyone can telegraph an attack to make it easier to avoid, but also much more damaging. That might be cool. Especially what if the same was true of magic. The more you "charge it up" before you let it go lets people prepare for it more (giving them an easier save) but makes it +1 caster level in effect.
It might also be fun to experiment with the opposite. I want to attack as quickly and unexpectedly as possible. It does less damage, because I'm not carefully waiting and lining up as good a shot, but it's much harder to react to. That way you can add to your base to hit, but subtract from damage, minimum 1. With magic it would raise their save number but reduce the level of the effect.
I've always toyed with the idea of Power Attack not giving a penalty to attack rolls, but to initiative (and maybe to AC, I'm not sure). I've never yet managed to convince my group to go along with it, but it seems more "storylike" than "game rules", which is how I usually like it anyway.
So if you take a 15-point Power Attack, your barbarian is basically standing there letting blows rain on him for a few seconds before he carves the dragon a new one, meaning his initiative score is delayed, giving opponents a chance to kill him before he has time to get off his hit.
Similarly, if a dragon (or hill giant, or any of the other immense critters with higher BAB than a warrior who has trained fifty years for battle, just "cos they're bigger") selects to "shave 15 to 20 points" off on all its attacks, it's vulnerable, but incredibly deadly, rather than just letting its massive Strength and BAB be an excuse for taking a 20-point power attack as a matter of course on every single attack.
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Y'know what's really sad? I followed the link, read the comment, and my first reaction was "what a jerk".
Of all the silly stuff I've heard over the years some folks actually do have trouble with this has never come up. OTOH I have some great joke fodder for my nightly walk with the wife. What a jerk.
-DM Jeff
There's NO NEED for it under 4e - EVERYONE gets damage increases based on level (at least from what I've heard from people who claim to have seen playtest material or who are reading between the lines on the WOTC boards). Apparently, fighters get a faster increase but EVERYONE gets one, essentially Power Attack is a feature for all classes, and one that gets better as you advance in level...
Score one for 4e! That's a great idea. I may check it out after all.
Resists much-desired urge to defend Tweet... co-creator of system being defended... feels better for having resisted...
Aaaghh.. too late... I like the enthusiasm the designers obviously have, and I like not being told all the nitty-gritty; I want to be surprised and intrigued by the new rules. I guess I don't take the game as seriously as some others. IMHO, YMMV, and all other acronyms.
Power Attack, and the concept of Feats weren't in 2ed. They popped in the game, and now some feats are taken out again. They're the mfg. so they have that ability.
I think it's ironic that without WotC, we wouldn't have Power Attack to begin with. The Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away.
Assuming that 4e will be an overhaul, I'd assume that no stone would be untouched. Until the release date when I can look at the end product myself can I accurately gauge how all of the chips will fall and balance out.
Resists much-desired urge to defend Tweet... co-creator of system being defended... feels better for having resisted...
Aaaghh.. too late... I like the enthusiasm the designers obviously have, and I like not being told all the nitty-gritty; I want to be surprised and intrigued by the new rules. I guess I don't take the game as seriously as some others.
I dont take the game as serious, thats why Im annoyed. I have a system that works and I can buy modules/expansions from numerous companies. Ive been told the "better" game will require me to buy everything over again. Yet when any one asks why its better, the overall answer is cause its so much better! Enthusiasm is great, but I dont take the rule part of DD serious enough to be intrigued to pay for a new system on just enthusiasm. Especially since so many ideas they talk about are obvious or in a totally diffrent style than my group. Im not so serious on the rules, but it will cause modules/expansions to be less available (since they seem to have no solid OGL plans to send out) Im annoyed.
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They're dumbing down the game to widen the audience.
D&D is as dumb or as smart as the players and GM happen to be.
Simplicity does not always equal smart, and simplicity does not always equal dumb.
I don't consider Star Fleet Battles a "smarter" game than chess or go just because it has more rules to keep track of.
No, rules not make one smart. (nod to Master Yoda)
Smart is what people do with the game. D&D was smart when the entire set of rule could fit in once chapter of 3.5 PHB.
But rules can be cumbersome and annoying.
Power attack is both.
I like how JoT went back to quell the fears of people because of what he said. Most notable of them:
1: Remember that this is me speaking personally as a game designer, not announcing anything one way or another regarding 4E.
5. If you're worried that the fighter in 4E isn't going to have interesting choices to make in battle, you're worrying about the wrong thing.
Question: If he's not announcing something about 4E, yet he is speaking as a game designer, then what the hell is he talking about? Did he just ramble on aimlessly for no reason? Well it is a blog so it is quite possible.
Question 2: Ummm ... I haven't heard anone express concerns about the fighter not having enough to do. Infact, I've heard concerns exactly the opposite. The fighter is suppose to be the epitome of simple character concept for the beginner player. By giving the fighter the equivilent of spells, you effectly eliminate the stupid, simple class. I can see a revised/simplified PA playing to a stupid, simple class, but where is this class?
Question: If he's not announcing something about 4E, yet he is speaking as a game designer, then what the hell is he talking about? Did he just ramble on aimlessly for no reason? Well it is a blog so it is quite possible.
I think the problem is that they use the blogs for both official 4E info and personal information which is terrible in my opinion. I shouldn't have to go to EnWorld to get a compiled list of 4E info because it is scattered across a dozen different blogs/pages/sites and they shouldn't be releasing official information or answers in their blogs.
Question 2: Ummm ... I haven't heard anone express concerns about the fighter not having enough to do. Infact, I've heard concerns exactly the opposite. The fighter is suppose to be the epitome of simple character concept for the beginner player. By giving the fighter the equivilent of spells, you effectly eliminate the stupid, simple class. I can see a revised/simplified PA playing to a stupid, simple class, but where is this class?
I don't see a problem with giving fighters more options but since we don't have any information we can't really say what they can or can't do.
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We do know that every class will have abilities for every level. That means lots of abilties for every character, including the fighter. Every clue we have gotten about the 4.0 fighter idicates that the class will be a lot like a warblade from Tome of Battle. I love warblades as much as the next guy, but I wouldn't give my 12 year old bother just learning to play D&D a warblade to play. I'd give him a fighter or barbarian. There is a real need for a simple, basic class that new players can play with little difficulty. They shouldn't have to deal with keeping track of a bunch of maneuvers, skill tricks, or spells that they have to actively choose and use (and reference rule books for every round)during the game.
Is power attack really that hard to manage? I think not. I said it before and I'll say it again: 4e's apparent target market seems to be idiots who can't do simple math. If you're insulted by this, you should ask yourself who's really doing the insulting here.
Every clue we have gotten about the 4.0 fighter idicates that the class will be a lot like a warblade from Tome of Battle. I love warblades as much as the next guy, but I wouldn't give my 12 year old bother just learning to play D&D a warblade to play.
And that at the end of the day is one of my bigger problems with 4E. More stuff to manage takes it away from its simple beginning to be a completely different game. Its not suppose to be the "top of the complexity-cool heap." D&D is suppose to be the "gateway drug" into RPGs while being complex enough for any long time players to enjoy. Having the "dumb fighter" is perfect for beginners while a Swordsage or warblade or etc is perfect for the long time players. They've killed the "gateway drug."
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Is power attack really that hard to manage? I think not. I said it before and I'll say it again: 4e's apparent target market seems to be idiots who can't do simple math. If you're insulted by this, you should ask yourself who's really doing the insulting here.
It is not about doing the math.
It is about the guy or gal playing the big dumb fighter taking five minutes to figure out just what level of power attack is good for any given swing.
It slows down the game. That is the heart of the problem.
It slows down the game. That is the heart of the problem.
And now they need the time back so they can use it to choose between Spinning Death Slash, Hammerblow of Painfulness, The Move Formerly Known as Dragon Tail Slash, and Opponent Bane Killing Strike.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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Every clue we have gotten about the 4.0 fighter idicates that the class will be a lot like a warblade from Tome of Battle. I love warblades as much as the next guy, but I wouldn't give my 12 year old bother just learning to play D&D a warblade to play.
I don't love Warblades. In fact I have no idea how they work. I never bought ToB and don't plan on it. Mystic Mountain Lighting Manuevers don't tickle my fantasy fancy...
Of course 4E doesn't tickly my Fantasy fancy either, so I won't be buying it.
--"Vrock of Ages"
The problem with Power Attack is that it's limitless. There are two ways to fix it.
1) You can say that Power Attack works like Strength. This is more realistic and makes sense. It means that the damage for a two handed weapon equalizes out against a two weapon fighter, which was the flaw in Power Attack. It does not, however, prevent continuous, massive fort saves at high levels.
2)You can cap Power Attack at 5. This argument assumes that the Opposite of Power Attack is Combat Expertise. By this logic, you would also need a second feat, Improved Power Attack, to do what Power Attack used to do. This is more mechanics oriented than it is logic oriented. However, both change the game very little while still retaining the feel.
It is about the guy or gal playing the big dumb fighter taking five minutes to figure out just what level of power attack is good for any given swing.
That's not a problem with the feat (saying, "I'll lower my bab by 3 for power attack," does not take 5 minutes. Heck it didn't even take 5 minutes to type it out). Its a problem with the player. If the player can't figure out how to decide how to hit someone, then maybe they should just houserule the feat as being -3/+3 and be done with it. The feat works just fine.
It is about the guy or gal playing the big dumb fighter taking five minutes
There you have it: The big dumb fighters are too much into their role in your games: They're playing dumb ;-P
to figure out just what level of power attack is good for any given swing.
Ignoring for a moment that you have to stick to your setting for the whole round (no -10, -5, 0 for your three attacks), I never saw anyone taking more than a few seconds to figure out how much power attack he's going to use. In fact, it often speeds things up because it provides you with nice round numbers for your attack rolls ("so I have +13 normally, but get +2 from your spell, and +2 for flanking, and another +1 because I'm standing on a table - let's just say I'll take 3 power attack and I have +15/+10/+5 for my attacks")
Mind you, I enforce a certain standard in mathematic ability and go heavy on anyone who wants to min max it (or would - never had anyone breaking out the tables and bell curves in order to maximize his maximal statistical damage output or something).
Our group might be special or something, but we haven't had many problems with power attack. And I have been playing with a couple of guys who are a bit slow - even they didn't turn power attack into The Big Game Stopper.
I think it really isn't the math, it is not stupid people. It is people making too much of a fuss over getting exactly the right amount of power attack every single round.
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It is about the guy or gal playing the big dumb fighter taking five minutes to figure out just what level of power attack is good for any given swing.That's not a problem with the feat (saying, "I'll lower my bab by 3 for power attack," does not take 5 minutes. Heck it didn't even take 5 minutes to type it out). Its a problem with the player. If the player can't figure out how to decide how to hit someone, then maybe they should just houserule the feat as being -3/+3 and be done with it. The feat works just fine.
At 15th level its not just 3. Its 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, or 15. I he flanking? Higher ground? Is DR involved? Do we need to take this thing down quickly? How will is effect my potential AoO if I need to make one? What is this things AC again?
I am glad you think the feat works just fine. I know for a fact that it does not. I have been the GM for hundreds of Living Greyhawk tables and I can tell you with absolute certainty that power attack adds at least 10 minutes to each and every combat.
Oh, and house rules are fine but most of my gaming is RPGA stuff at cons, shops, and at home. There rules are rules. No house rules allowed.
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And now they need the time back so they can use it to choose between Spinning Death Slash, Hammerblow of Painfulness, The Move Formerly Known as Dragon Tail Slash, and Opponent Bane Killing Strike.
It slows down the game. That is the heart of the problem.
Yes, but my impression is that any given character is going to have a few core moves to choose from and they each do pretty dramatically different things. Playing a character in 4E sounds like you have options rather than calculations, combinations, and permutations.
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Our group might be special or something, but we haven't had many problems with power attack. And I have been playing with a couple of guys who are a bit slow - even they didn't turn power attack into The Big Game Stopper.
I think it really isn't the math, it is not stupid people. It is people making too much of a fuss over getting exactly the right amount of power attack every single round.
I agree - but I play D&D with strangers and friends. I do a ton of RPGA gaming. Out on the con floor you cant always be sure to avoid the folks for whom power attack is a real brain burner.
I agree - but I play D&D with strangers and friends. I do a ton of RPGA gaming. Out on the con floor you cant always be sure to avoid the folks for whom power attack is a real brain burner.Our group might be special or something, but we haven't had many problems with power attack. And I have been playing with a couple of guys who are a bit slow - even they didn't turn power attack into The Big Game Stopper.
I think it really isn't the math, it is not stupid people. It is people making too much of a fuss over getting exactly the right amount of power attack every single round.
Its this logic that keeps me from taking 4e serious for my group. The RPGA sounds a bit like a wargame in official rules, which is good and fine. But I play warmachine and warhammer for that. D&D I play for fun with groups that do long campaign stories together. I see no reason to spend a ton of money per member to fix rules we had no problem with. Hard to feel theres a problem with a rule if someone needs to explain the problem by I play with random people at conventions.
Having said all that I dont fault Wizards for going to rule fixes that come up in things like the RPGA. If you sell offical rules you would favor the group that is most active and plays to the offical rules. They are wizards best way to spread awareness and excitement. They will care the most for things like the DI updates etc. I think anyone thinking 4th edition wont need a lot of faqs quick is kidding themselves. However DI seems to target that. So all is good. Just not for my group.
At 15th level its not just 3. Its 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, or 15. I he flanking? Higher ground? Is DR involved? Do we need to take this thing down quickly? How will is effect my potential AoO if I need to make one? What is this things AC again?
Player says: Is he flanking? Higher ground?
DMs answer: Look at your mini and learn the rules. What are you doing?Player says: Is DR involved?
DMs answer: Did you make a knowledge check? No? Then you have no clue. What are you going to do?
Player says: Do we need to take this thing down quickly?
DMs answer: You should have figured that out while everyone else was going. What are you doing?
Player says: How will is effect my potential AoO if I need to make one?
DMs answer: A round is 6 seconds. You don't have time to think about this question and swing. You should have figured this out while everyone else was talking their turn. What are you doing?
Player says: What is this things AC again?
DMs answer: You don't know. What are you doing? You have one minute to decide or else you're going to be holding action.
Notice what I did there? I kept up the pressure on the player. At the end I used a writer's trick. The Deadline. Writers always perform better when they have a deadline. Now apply that to players. In his case, the deadline is meaningless since he still can act at any point in time after that 1 minute expired, but the consequence is that his character will be acting later.
This very much is a player problem, not a system problem. If the player can't figure out what they're doing while everyone else is acting, then that's his fault. If the DM isn't applying pressure to the player to keep things moving, then the DM is enabling that behavior and just as much at fault. This is not a system faulure.
And frankly does a 12 BAB penalty make a big difference from a 13? No. Personally, I do PA in a 5 increment at higher levels. So I do a 5, 10 or 15 BAB penalty. 15 choices down to 3 (and how great the bad guy is dictated which is used, so its not even a choice really).
EDIT: And truthfully, wouldn't every single question you posed after the 1-15 list still apply to the player that can't decide what they're doing even if they don't have PA? Keeping up the pressure works quite well. Player in a forced held action once will every time thereafter know exactly what they are doing for their next action.
I can tell you with absolute certainty
Wrong.
I have been in one fight (well, hundreds, actually, but that isn't relevant here) where it didn't add 10 or more minutes, so your theory is false. Bad scientist! :P
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I can tell you with absolute certaintyWrong.
I have been in one fight (well, hundreds, actually, but that isn't relevant here) where it didn't add 10 or more minutes, so your theory is false. Bad scientist! :P
One data point does not make a trend. Just because the rule works for one group does not mean that there is nothing wrong with it.
Basing your conclusion on a single data point is wrong.
I have NO problem calculating power attack in a few seconds, and I can also remember everyone's AC adjustments when I am the DM.
I was a bartender once long ago, and I had to do far more challenging feats of calculation and memory than that. If a DM doesn't like power attack he can ban it.
This is a big deal being made out of something noobs and a few mathematically challenged folks are having problems with.
But rules can be cumbersome and annoying.Power attack is both.
Power attack rocks.
No it does not.
does
does
doesn't. Unh? NO NO! DOES!
Hallelujah!
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Notice what I did there? I kept up the pressure on the player.Yes you did. Now how does that player feel? You can't piss off people just because you want an answer now. This is especially true while playing with friends. They won't be your friends long if you push them like that.
I don't see how questioning a player to speed things up would upset them.
I do see the same thing happening in 4e anyway when players don't decide what to do until their turn and then take minutes to figure out which maneuver they are going to use.
I agree with the poster who said that this is a player problem, not a system problem.
Also, D&D is probably one of the least math intensive games when compared to something like HERO or Shadowrun (3rd ed).
D&D I play for fun with groups that do long campaign stories together.Believe it or not RPGA gaming like Living Greyhawk is just like that but the story is shared by tens, if not hundreds of thousands of players the world over.
Havent seen that when Ive looked at RPGA. There is an overarching story sure, but I think its very diffrent in style. I prefer a more personal character driven style and less run the same module/story with many groups under tight rule lawyering. But each to his own.
I can tell you with absolute certaintyWrong.
I have been in one fight (well, hundreds, actually, but that isn't relevant here) where it didn't add 10 or more minutes, so your theory is false. Bad scientist! :P
One data point does not make a trend. Just because the rule works for one group does not mean that there is nothing wrong with it.
Basing your conclusion on a single data point is wrong.
One data point does disprove any "never" statement if it proves that it does happen.
I'm still convinced think that it's not the feat's fault, but the fault of those who make too much of a fuss about it. I have played with something between 1 and 2 dozen people. Why didn't I have any case where power attack added 10 minutes to a fight? Or one minute? I guess it's because whenever someone started to switch his major into "power attack statistics", we forcibly removed him from the register of studends right away.
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Havent seen that when Ive looked at RPGA. There is an overarching story sure, but I think its very diffrent in style. I prefer a more personal character driven style and less run the same module/story with many groups under tight rule lawyering. But each to his own.D&D I play for fun with groups that do long campaign stories together.Believe it or not RPGA gaming like Living Greyhawk is just like that but the story is shared by tens, if not hundreds of thousands of players the world over.
Agreed. RPGA is far too restrictive to really have fun with your gaming. You have to use this point buy. You can't use these races or classes. You can't use this feat or magic item unless you get a "card' for it. Too much trouble for something that is supposed to be played for fun.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I don't understand how it's any more time consuming at 15th level than:
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Agreed. RPGA is far too restrictive to really have fun with your gaming. You have to use this point buy. You can't use these races or classes. You can't use this feat or magic item unless you get a "card' for it. Too much trouble for something that is supposed to be played for fun.
Ooooh the cards are what really turned me off.
I don't need a 'buy' a frakking card to play something you allow. I paid my price of admission by buying the frakking book!
Notice what I did there? I kept up the pressure on the player.Yes you did. Now how does that player feel? You can't piss off people just because you want an answer now. This is especially true while playing with friends. They won't be your friends long if you push them like that.
Dude, it's all in the delivery. There are ways of saying, "What are you doing?" without coming across as a d*ck. Tone of voice, mannerism, etc. Try it, you never know
I can tell you with absolute certaintyWrong.
I have been in one fight (well, hundreds, actually, but that isn't relevant here) where it didn't add 10 or more minutes, so your theory is false. Bad scientist! :P
One data point does not make a trend. Just because the rule works for one group does not mean that there is nothing wrong with it.
Basing your conclusion on a single data point is wrong.
I'm sure you're a great DM, but the little information I have tells me you're a non-confrontational DM. You've got to be unafraid to tell someone to figure out what they're doing while the other 4 (or however many players you have at that moment) people are acting. Telling someone to speed it up is good table management. Your fighting to have the time of the players at the table not wasted by one player that can't decide between a 12 and a 13.
You also never answered my question: Doesn't every single modifier you posed (save PA) still apply even if PA is not around?
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I get a kick out of the "They're dumbing down the game!" arguments for this.
Remember THAC0? It was basic subtraction, easy as hell, but considered "to complicated" for the then modern gamer.
If THAC0 is too hard, so is Power Attack. You can't pick one or the other.
Quit whining about them dumbing down the game. The precedent was set with THAC0 to BAB and the cries of "OMFG! Subtraction is hard! Save us BAB, save us!"
Oh, and don't get your knickers in a knot. I'm mostly joking.
If a rule can be revised or replaced by another that provides the same in game effect with less cognitive load then that's a good thing.
The primary critique of D&D? Its a roll playing game, not a role playing game.
Anything that helps D&D become more of a role playing game is fine by me.
The game is what YOU make it dude.
The primary critique of D&D? Its a roll playing game, not a role playing game.
I've found the primary critique of D&D (in my area) is that it is too simple... That, and/or it isn't flexible enough.
I guess it all depends on who you know.
The primary critique of D&D? Its a roll playing game, not a role playing game.
GAH! Argument by cliche.
I've found the primary critique of D&D (in my area) is that it is too simple... That, and/or it isn't flexible enough.
I totally agree. When I am back in Canada I will probably switch to Hero System or Gurps.
I continue playing D&D because my players are new to RPGs, don't have time to learn a difficult system, and are not able to understand a really complex ruleset because English is their second language.
And I've got to add that I think another great criticism is that sometimes D&D is dumb. Hit points and AC I am looking at you.