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I'll undoubtedly download the 4E SRD once it becomes available.
That said, I have way too much invested in a game system that doesn't seem to actually need much updating to be in any hurry to switch. Publish in 3.5, and I'll probably stick around. Head off to 4E... and I suspect I'll quietly let my subscription lapse.
As for a 3.75, my interest in that would depend mostly on the level of compatibility with the 3.5 stuff I have now. Selling me a completely new game that I have to chuck my current stuff for isn't really doing anything that 4E wouldn't do.
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Paizo continues to impress me with not only their products, but also with their genuine concern for its customer base. WotC has lost all touch with what their customers want.
To be honest, I didn't mind a 4th edition. I would buy the books and continue on, mostly because I've always loved Forgotten Realms and they're finally giving it the respect it deserved... by completely destroying what made the setting great.
If I'm asked to make a choice (which I inevitably will be), I'd stick with Paizo. I'm upset that splitting the market means even LESS of a chance of getting a good home campaign going, but I'd rather see WotC's vision die and endure the backlash in order to end up with an overall better game.
In an attempt to help put your mind at ease with whatever decision you make, I shall share some information that I learned this past week. Only 20% of all modern businesses succeed in the business model they initially set out with. The other 80% have to change their outlook in order to turn a profit. Who knows; maybe in 10 years WotC will finally be trying to pattern its business model after Paizo... as it should be.
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Erik,
I have always liked my sacred cows since 1986. :) Will I be disappointed should Paizo go 4E....um yeah. Will I continue with your product should you go 4E, I dont know. What I would like to see, should you go 4E, is a pdf, much like you guys are doing now, but add stuff for the 3.5E players. Stories will always be the same, only the names (or in this case the villians and monsters) will change. I can always make a story work no matter what edition or system is used, but it would be really really nice if you guys could provide ideas or stats in a pdf 3E version. Hell I would volunteer for that job!!
Of course we can skip all of this silly talk of switching to 4E and keep doing what you guys been doing in 3E!!!
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Here's my straight up answer.
From a financial and realistic standpoint, I am considering holding off on future APs after RotRL, not because of 4E, but because I'm already drowning in stuff to run. This isn't to say I'm not interested, I'm just thinking of slowing down. For example, I plan to start the STAP in late 2008 or early 2009.
My group wants to stick with 3.5. I will buy 4E, because i hope to write for some of the companies that will switch.
If you produced a Pathfinder game that was an upgrade of 3.5, I would be MUCH more likely to by the associated advenures, and rules, and run them immediately.
And if opportunities became available to be part of the creation of that product, I would be extremely interested in being involved.
Dude - you're assuming 4e leaves you anything to write. The little I've gathered in all my 4e sleuthing (such as it is), makes 4e sound like a computer game. Bleh.
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Should make this into a poll...My thoughts:
Paizo Pathfinder RPG based on the 3.5 OGL rules = Win.There's somewhat of an inevitability for 4th edition - being a publisher of game material, y'all are in the position of not being able to ignore it. The viability of a publisher sticking solely with an edition of the rules that are invalidated by the publisher of those rules by the release of a new rules edition doesn't sound good, and would make any sane businessperson nervous. I don't see 3.5 OGL lasting more than a year after the release of 4E (from a business POV; as a player/GM, it will last a lot longer).
You can't please everybody all the time, and no matter which edition you go with you're going to make somebody unhappy. The best plan would be to provide back & forwards conversions no matter the edition you're publishing in. Sadly, this is probably more manpower that Paizo has to spare, but it is an ideal solution.
Oh, and Paizo 4 Life for me too.
I've got a different take on this. If 4e stinks, and its arrival further fragments an already fragmented market perhaps the thought should be: how can Paizo turn this into an opportunity? Fixing 4e with supplements? 3.75? Getting aggressive and creating such an amazing outlet for freelancers that everyone is too busy to work for WoTC? Some other move that lets Davey take out Goliath? Bottom line I'm not ready to just assume that 4e means WoTC automatically wins and retains its 50% market share.
What do you think? Assuming the third Pathfinder Adventure Path, Second Darkness, remains 3.5, will you stick around?
This makes little difference to me right now as the next campaign I plan to run for my local group will be the Savage Tide AP. Well before that future campaign draws to a close, I'll be evaluating what to run next based off the interests of my group.
With that said, I do tend to buy lots of D&D rulebooks and adventures that I never get around to using or playing. I still have a pile of 2nd Ed adventures of which only perhaps 20% got played. I've purchased far fewer 3.x adventures (not as many are published by WotC as by TSR) but even there that percentage is probably similar.
I know most of you are as in the dark about fourth edition as we are and I understand that it's too early to make a serious call. But how is the 4.0 hype treating you these days?
By hype are we including all the negativity that's been festering around here and elsewhere? That sort of hype has seen me posting less and less because (as someone referenced in the Save my game topic) it's starting to feel like the 3-Minute Hate around here lately.
With that said, Charlotte, NC has only a single FLGS and their D&D support is rather weak. Furthermore, some of the managers there scoff any time I mention 4th Ed (as if they are in middle school trying to say what they think the "cool kids" want them to say). I find that rather irritating and am seriously reconsidering giving them any future patronage. Perhaps they think that because they are the only FLGS in town that I can't take the $100s I spend yearly on gaming products elsewhere. Well, given the fact that the domain name of their website is 25 characters long and freely admit they haven't updated it in ages, it's obvious to me that they don't take the threat of the internet very seriously...
Which is to say, Paizo can expect me to purchase the bulk of my gaming products from them whether they are the publisher or merely the reseller.
Getting back to "hype"...
As I've said dozens of times before, "If 3.5 wasn't broken, why did I spend so much time trying to fix it?" Thus for some time now, the devil I don't know (4E) has looked better than the devil I do know (3.5). Of course, given that I don't care one whit about fluff changes and WotC has given many clues about how the rules are being changed (Star Wars Saga being a prime example) the nature of the new beast isn't an entirely unknown quantity.
Do you plan to start up a new 4.0 campaign on day 1?
Yes actually. I will finish my RHoD campaign in 3.5 if it is still going by the launch of 4E but I fully expect it to be completed well before them. After that, I'll move the group to 4E and have them start new characters for a 4E version of STAP that I'll do myself if Paizo doesn't (more on that at the end of my post).
However, weekend before last, I was finally able to meet up with my old best friends from high school for the 1st time in about 8 years (we live 500+ miles apart now). D&D 2nd Ed was a staple of our friendship back in high school and a hobby they have dearly missed since I moved away. When I mentioned that the 4th Edition of D&D comes out mid-2008 and will offer tools to play over the Internet (without having to cobble together 3rd party solutions) their eyes lit up.
Therefore, in addition to my local game which I will transition to 4E when the time is right, my intention is to launch a 4E internet game at launch. That will allow my old friends from HS and my current best friends (who still live about 120 to 250 miles away) to all play together — something I've wished could happen for years now.
What do YOU want Paizo to do?
For now I would expect Paizo to release it's next AP as OGL 3.5. What I would like is that once Paizo has the rules document/OGL 4E in hand and it's lawyers give it sound beating that Paizo switches to 4E for the following AP.
Better yet, I'd like to see them release that "next" AP as both 3.5 AND 4E (just like how Microsoft includes both the 32-bit and 64-bit versions of Vista if You buy it retail). After that "next" one though, I'd expect Paizo to be 4E. While doing a simultaneous dual-version might be a lot of work, if nothing else, it should prove a valuable experience to Paizo and would be a valuable tool for DMs to reference who aim to convert other 3.5 adventures to 4E themselves.
As for 3.75...
The whole notion of releasing "D&D 3.75" seems like folly to me. If people like 3.5 so much that they are unwilling to switch to the newest version of the game then I can't see too many of them switching the game significantly to support what is effectively a different version that You are simply putting a different spin on.
I realize that in the poll You are running that a high high percentage of voters say they will stick with Paizo no matter what BUT essentially You are a preacher asking their choir if they'll buy the songbooks You are thinking about writing. If the answer wasn't an overwhelming "yes" in such a poll I'd be surprised. I don't say that to demean anyone here, but outside of these boards, I've met lots of folks at ren faires, conventions and gaming stores who don't know Paizo from Mongoose from White Wolf. These same people might admit that they liked Dragon and Dungeon mags or be sentimental over the loss of the printed versions but the majority I've encountered don't know that Paizo == Dragon mag == Dungeon mag of yore.
On a more personal note, such a campaign setting would have about as much usefulness for me as WotC's campaign/fluff changes will have an impact on me. I run all my games in a homebrew setting so campaign and fluff books don't really interest me. Now I bought the Forgotten Realms and Eberron campaign settings just to see how they were laid out (since I'd like to publish my own someday) but beyond picking a class or spell here or there they've seen no use and I haven't purchased any further products in either line.
Is the possibility that I'd purchase just that one Campaign setting book and likely none of the other PathFinder setting books worth it financially to Paizo? I don't mean that to sound arrogant but rather to point to all the folks here who have mentioned they will purchase the 4E core 3 and perhaps nothing else from WotC. If Paizo could find itself in a similar situation is that enough revenue to justify the paychecks to cover the manhours of development for 3.75?
The last thing I want for D&D is to see a Catholic/Protestant-style schism. The more splintered things are, the harder it is to find a group who wants to play the same thing You are into. I'm on the Board of Directors for the Online Gaming League (around for years before WotC thought to name their licensing schema "OGL") and I've seen such fracturing of communities kill more than a few successful video games — I'd hate to see the same thing happen to D&D even more than I'd hate to see Paizo fall on hard time.
Final thoughts:
I'd love it if Paizo offered 4E conversions of their adventures. I've seen many DMs on here who state that they lack the free-time necessary to author or even convert adventures themselves. For many of these DMs, that seems to be part of the appeal of what we've been promised with 4E — less preparation time.
For those DMs who are not opposed to dropping coin if it will save them several hours, I'd say that Paizo has a definite market for selling conversions of their products. I can tell You that I often base my decision on whether to do something myself (lawncare, cleaning, web development, game design) on whether the cost of hiring someone else to do it would exceed the hourly rate I earn doing contract work. In the case of spending a couple weeks' worth of evenings converting a D&D story I like from one version to another (and Paizo writes great stuff) I wouldn't have a 2nd thought about dropping a $5 to $20 on the conversion document...
</elven ramblings>
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I'm only started playing 3.5 DnD for this wonderful Pathfinder campaign / milleu.
I sound like a suck-a$$ a lot of the time, so here's the straight dope.
My money goes to the quality campaign setting materials first, rule books second. Paizo delivers what I want, so I run 3.5.
So yeah, if Paizo made a 3.75 game to support their Adventure Paths, I would buy that game, and I would use it to run Pathfinder campaigns.
That reminds me of Microsoft's (winning) strategy. Game system is the computer hardware, campaign material is the software. Microsoft's early genius was in recognizing that people buy machines in order to run software and not the other way around.
So, can Paizo replicate the strategy and get people to buy the game system that runs their campaign world, and not the other way around?
Simply put,
1. I will continue to subscribe to Pathfinder and gamemastery while you have 3.5 content...regardless of whether you convert or not.
2. If there is a 3.75 version that you put out...It is most likely that I will continue subscribing. (when I say most likely it would have to be a horrendous stuff-up by you guys for me not to buy it and frankly I just can't see that happening with the bunch of writers/publishers and the customer focus you currently have.) so think 99.5% will convert with you.
3. If you convert to 4.0 I will stop, breathe, look around and see if I actually like the system. I will not automatically convert. If I like the system, you will get my all my gaming dollars (after I get the core books so I can play it of course) If I am not keen on 4.0, but you produce material that I can convert down to 3.5/3.75 then I will be happy to buy your material cause the flavour of modules/APs really suit my style of play and quite frankly you are great story and campaign writers. However, I might be picky and not subscribe but only buy what looks of particular interest.
If I don't like 4.0 and can't convert your 4.0 products down, I will buy as much 3.5/3.75 from you as I can and other products (planet stories and the like) but i will not be resubscribing to to the 4.0 pathfinder/gamemastery.
I hate what I have said in point three, as I am a strong supporter of you guys (my friends in both D&D and the non D&D world hear nothing but me talking about you!) but if I don't like 4.0 and can't convert down I won't be using it and will just have to rely on the wonderful resources have already produced to create my own campaigns (most likely in Golarion) I also hate that people I have supported in the past (WOTC) has put me in a position where I might have to make such a hard choice
hmmmmmm that was supposed to be brief LOL...oh well.
And seriously....thanks for asking Erik!
Don't do a 3.75. Don't spend your resources of time and energy on a product that will be used by only a subset of current customers.Well, *if* we were to stay with some flavor of third edition, *somebody* would have to keep some kind of core rulebooks in print. Wizards certainly won't continue to print the 3.5 Player's Handbook, and it's not a great strategy to publish products for a system whose best method for acquiring new customers would involve having them make a trip to the used bookstore.
Brilliant. As the owner of 3 FLGS, I find myself in a curious position. On the one hand, I have to sell rulebooks. Rulebooks outsell adventures nearly 10-to-1. It's just the nature of the beast since only GMs need to purchase adventures and some of those don't, choosing to homebrew exclusively.
Unfortunately, the new 4th Ed. initiative seems bound and determined to take customers away from the gaming table and, more importantly to my own bottom line, out of my stores. Now I can't simply bury my head in the sand and pretend 4th Edition isn't necessary. Many who decry its very existance now, will find themselves overtaken by curiosity upon release, but there is a very real chance that this Edition will be spurned by my current gaming market.
When that happened to World of Darkness, Shadowrun, and Spycraft, I was left with little options. Those lines dwindled away and died in my stores because once the older product was gone, the customer base had no interest in the newer product. Some continued to play the older versions, some moved on to different games, some quit the hobby entirely, but it all meant I no longer made money on those lines and quit stocking them.
I think continued support of D&D 3.5-3.75 has a surprisingly good chance of retaining a lot of the current market, but it is CRUCIAL that a rulebook of some kind remain in print. It'll be an uphill climb to get 3.5ers to buy yet ANOTHER edition, but if it is both comprehensive while having enough new content to drive it, it could work, and would certainly be cheaper than going whole-hog into 4th Ed.
It would be truly awesome to see 3.75 outsell 4.0, but I doubt it'll happen. WOTC has a hellacious marketing machine when they choose to use it, and can lock down bookstore chains and other large market entities.
One of the considerations I haven't seen raised is the use of WOTC product identity. Would this mean that Mind Flayers, Kuo-Toa, Yuan-Ti, Githyanki, and Beholders will all be off the table? I suppose they already are, right? We're talking about retaining the traditional vibe of D&D, but we're already missing out on some of its most iconic foes.
i'm afraid to say that if you swtich to 4.E i will more than likely cancel my subscriptions as i've been through 3 changes in editions and i'm damned if i'll do it again.
i like 3.E (or 3.5) and i think that to send out a fourth edition now is a poor idea. a 3.75 rule set would be supported by me.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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From a financial standpoint, Paizo has to do what is best for Paizo and I respect that decision even if it means that they make the change to 4.0 'shudder'.
I was an old "can't believe they are changing D&D" when 3.0 came out and I got out of the game for a couple of years, not wanting to spend all that new money and learn a new system. In saying that, I did finally relent and started playing again and purchasing 3.5 stuff a couple of years ago (and man am I sore that I now have a massive gap in my Dragon/Dungeon collection; moreso than anything else about the change). However, the total shakeup of alot of the established cannon for D&D (the planes, Succubi, player races, etc...) has got me a little worried about 4e. Sure in the conversion from 2e to 3e they changed some stuff, but on the whole there was not alot of retconning to be done and you knew what was what without too much catchup. Not so with 4e. They are having a big shakeup and alot of retconning has been done to bring old stuff into the 4e mythos. From what we've heard there are some things that I like about 4e (racial ability levels instead of ECLs being probably the biggest) but on the whole it will be like learning not only a brand new ruleset, but also re-learning the D&D History as well. No thanks!
Both myself and my playgroup have way too many untapped 3.5 resources laying around between us, and to let that go to waste would be both a shame and a waste of the money spent on it. For this reason my playgroup will not be converting to 4.0. I will most probably buy the PHB/DMG (and maybe the MM) for 4.0 to get a look at the new rules and depending on how useful for story flavour some of the Eberron/FR books will be maybe some of them too (although I am not sure about the new direction of FR to be quite honest). That is it. Period.
Maybe by the time they decide to bring out 4.5 we will have exhausted a good portion of our 3.5 material and may consider converting then, but until then we will remain firmly in the 3.x camp.
Now, back to my Opening Paragraph. If Paizo decides to go with the 4e rules, then I will most probably pass on their offerings. That decision is not set in stone however as I'm sure that there will also be a wealth of Golarion related info in Pathfinder that is not edition specific. If however Pathfinder continued on the 3.x path then I would be on board for the long haul (well at least the forseeable future, another baby on the way could see my finances cut back severly). I would do everything I could to support Paizo outside of this however, even if they were to go to 4e, simply because I appreciate how they both treat their customers and respond to customer input. I have subscribed to both Pathfinder and Gamesmastery lines for this simple reason. The adventures themselves will not be played for some time to come, but if my support now means you continue to produce quality products in the future then it is a small price to pay.
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Course I still think Paizo should just wait a bit (3.75 is fine) and buy DD& from Hasbro when they sell it in the next few years. Really. Just leverage yourselves to have the capital and be ready. D&D changed hands several times between 2E and 3E. I really think that hasbro is not going to be happy with 4E returns and will sell off D&D in a few years. Of all companies I want Paizo to be the ones to buy it.
Yes, I know this is a far off situation but one I think LIsa and Erik and others really need to sit down one day and have a real serious meeting over it. No one ever thought TSR would sell to Wizards and no ever though Hasbro of all companies would buy Wizards. D&D WILL change hands again eventually. The question is, will Paizo have had the foresight to be ready to buy it?
I certainly hope so. (Lisa get the checkbook ready)
YES! I will even donate to help fund a Paizo-buys-D&D warchest. Just tell me where to send the check.
I plan on sticking with Paizo no matter what. But I also plan on moving to 4th edition. I like what I have heard so far as far as the mechanics are concerned, and with Paizo (via Golarion) providing the fluff and campaign setting, what do I care what WotC do with their worlds.
I'm an engineer by trade, and so it is the plot lines and adventure design that I need the most help with. And Pathfinder (and GamesMastery) are excellent for that. Even if you stay with 3.5 I will convert them to 4th ed. Although that will take time, for me it will be time better spent than world building and adventure design. It should be even easier if WotC succeed in cutting down the prep time with 4th ed.
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Checkbook heck, put up the option to invest to the gamers!Course I still think Paizo should just wait a bit (3.75 is fine) and buy DD& from Hasbro when they sell it in the next few years. Really. Just leverage yourselves to have the capital and be ready. D&D changed hands several times between 2E and 3E. I really think that hasbro is not going to be happy with 4E returns and will sell off D&D in a few years. Of all companies I want Paizo to be the ones to buy it.
No one ever thought TSR would sell to Wizards and no ever though Hasbro of all companies would buy Wizards. D&D WILL change hands again eventually. The question is, will Paizo have had the foresight to be ready to buy it?
I certainly hope so. (Lisa get the checkbook ready)
Here, here! Can you spell, Paizo's IPO?
+++ Paizo has VERY rarely let me down on any of their products I'm here to stay. DnD is a hobby that I love and have played since 'The Red Box'set there have always been ups and downs in the rules and in player support from any 'powers that be' with the exception of you. Because of Paizo 'Dungeon' and 'Dragon' became a great resourse and one that I never missed picking up at my local bookstore, before that mmm yeah not so much I collected them early on and then when their quality became garbage and the amount of useful information became slim to none I stopped. If you stay 3.5 I will be very happy, I'm told 4.0 will be the greatest thing since sliced bread. Sure and I'll only have to keep upgrading once a year to keep with current rules and have a subscription to the online site and and and... I will keep an open mind (sure I will) but honestly I just bought how many rulebooks(after just buying how many 3.5 books)? I have no plans on buying any 4.0 products and if they are so wonderful they will be wonderful 2-3 yrs from now when my playing group has the resources to buy them, mind you we'll probably be on 5.5 by then but hey if you want a company like Hasbro to own you, you have to give them profits. Lots and lots of profits. Make mine Paizo. Sorry for the rant.
What do you think? Assuming the third Pathfinder Adventure Path, Second Darkness, remains 3.5, will you stick around? (Definitely.)
I know most of you are as in the dark about fourth edition as we are and I understand that it's too early to make a serious call. But how is the 4.0 hype treating you these days? (I'm very turned off!)
Do you plan to start up a new 4.0 campaign on day 1? (No way. I've way too much 3rd ed. stuff to play through, even if I make the switch.)
What do YOU want Paizo to do? (I want you to stay profitable, so you can still churn out all the excellent products that you do. Sadly, on an economic level, I have no idea how you do that when it looks like you might need to gamble on a certain future, w/ not enough information to keep you feeling comfortable about the situation. But as cliched as it's become in this and other threads, I will follow you no matter which way you go. Maybe that helps in that you can count on me for a fixed revenue stream, in ways WOTC never will be able to do again.)
I'll repeat a few ideas mentioned herein. Maybe try this poll out on other sites; here we're admittedly largely fan boys & girls. Then again, I don't know what percentage of us you need to stay profitable. Maybe you can get some approximation of that from just these boards.
Talk to your fellows at Necromancer/Goodman/etc. I think IF you try a 3.Paizo edition and make a clean break, your chances of market share might improve if others follow your lead. Strength in numbers and all that.
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Here's part of the issue that's probably worth discussing as its own post.
Here's a nightmare scenario: Let's say there is a 4.0 OGL. One reason for such a thing to exist (and we know one is coming, unless plans have changed since Gen Con) is that Wizards knows the largest potential threat to the success of 4.0 is their own game--3.5. I strongly suspect that there are powers at Wizards who view all OGL companies as competition instead of support, and who would prefer that all of us went away and stopped splitting the pie that they believe is their pie in the first place. But pulling the OGL from 4.0 would be a disaster, because a lot of customers have grown used to third-party support and the industry, such as it is, has come to rely on it too...
Wouldn't it be an even greater nightmare if they simply wrote the 4.0 OGL, retaining the right of revocation? Then they've got a Damocles sword over all your heads. Let you help convert their base to 4.0 then deprive you of the 4.0 OGL mid publishing cycle, attempting to rupture your finances.
Bottom line - Paizo seems to treat the game the way I want to see it treated. Once the 4e rules are out there, if Paizo decides to adopt them, I have a feeling I will like what they do with them. If on the other hand, Pazio sees the new rules and does not think they feel like the D&D we currently know, and decides to stick with 3.5 for the foreseeable future, I have a feeling that will be my reaction to the new rules too.
Wow, this pretty much encapsulates my feelings as a player and DM. It's a much better way to put it than the "Where Paizo goes, I follow" rhetoric.
The last thing I want for D&D is to see a Catholic/Protestant-style schism. The more splintered things are, the harder it is to find a group who wants to play the same thing You are into. I'm on the Board of Directors for the Online Gaming League (around for years before WotC thought to name their licensing schema "OGL") and I've seen such fracturing of communities kill more than a few successful video games — I'd hate to see the same thing happen to D&D even more than I'd hate to see Paizo fall on hard time.
+++ Well said. Sadly this has happened to my group as we split over 2nd edition and going to 3.0, most of our group didn't want the change and the few that did ended up starting a new group but it wasn't the same and it actually ended several friendships that had lasted over 15 yrs. When 3.5 came out the fighting started again as we had just bought the 3 main books and a few had purchased other sourcebooks. This is the new schism in our group and for the most part the reaction to a "new" version of DnD is being met with the same reaction as if you just found a rotting corpse in you bathroom "oh no not again"! I will say that you have several valid points and I will try to look for the silver lining in a new version of our beloved game.
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Oh - I forgot to add. Unless they drastically change what I've already seen, I'm never switching to 4.0. Ever. I'll continue to buy all the 3.x material Paizo publishes, but if you guys switch to 4.x, I'll be cancelling my subscriptions (with tears in my eyes). 4.x material will be useless to me as I won't play it. Even if that means I never play D&D again. Or write for it, either.
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Wow, a lot of response to the original question.
I have heard for months that Paizo and WotC were on good terms and planned to do more work together after Dungeon and Dragon Magazines were done... It sounds like that may no longer be true. I am sad that it appears that WotC is not supporting Paizo and putting you guys off when you ask for a timeline. They are aware of what you are up against. Gencon this year was my first and I realized how important that convention is to the entire industry.
I have been a big supporter of WotC through the firestorm of the past several months. Both on the Paizo message boards and the WotC boards when I could stomach all the hate speech that goes on over there.
I love the work that Paizo does and for the first time I am considering not supporting WotC as I have in the past. They created the situation with the open license. Many of the OGL material out there has been poor quality with some huge exceptions. Some of the best material being currently created are the Gamemastery Modules and the Pathfinder Adventure Paths. I believe that they may be the best adventures ever produced for D&D. There have been many products that were the best of their time but the bar has been raised the past few years with the work Paizo has done.
I honestly do not know what I am going to do about 4th edition but I do know that I will be purchasing everything Paizo produces for the game to include 3.75 if they decide to go that way.
I hope that WotC continues the OGL and that Paizo gets it soon so they can make their plans for the future but no matter what the decisions and the conditions I am with you.
Thank you for being open with us. It is invaluable...
You've had longer to think on this than I have, and you're certainly more motivated than I, but here's my 2 cents worth.
> Above all, stay flexible.
> It's been mentioned already, but: Shorter APs for Pathfinder in the interim. 3-issue arcs, until the dust settles and you can commit to one direction or another.
> Even if you ultimately decide to switch to 4.0, keep some element of GameMastery line in a 3.5/d20 modern mode, just to keep your oar in the water, whether it's the occasional adventure or accessory. From a creative/production standpoint, you know you can produce 3.5 product on a quick turnaround if need be. THAT'S YOUR ACE IN THE HOLE!, should 4.0 fail to gain an audience that is willing to buy third-party materials.
> Your back library of quality 3.5 products is also a strength. Even if you never produce another one, by virtue of that library, you have 3.5 product line that keeps you in the 3.5 game. This is another serious advantage. Unlike the switch from 3.0 to 3.5, I don't think gamers are going to dismiss 3.5-style adventures as not having utility.
> You've already scheduled what appear to be some rules neutral products for 2008, settings bibles and the like. Smart move. It might not hurt to have a coupla more of those around.
> Planet Stories rpg tie-ins, if that's at all possible. It's a niche you seem to occupy alone, and if it finds an audience, it gives you a bankable setting that's an alternative to the core fantasy market. (I think this is anagolous to what Green Ronin has done with Mutants and Masterminds). Can you make a Planet Stories rpg your signature product for GenCon 08, giving you something that stands out from the "points of light" fantasy crowd?
> Paizo's strength has always been story -- not mechanics. Find the beststory you can to launch your first 4.0 product with, the one you can push to the latest production deadline possible so you'll have something 4.0 for GenCon. Maybe it's not Pathfinder, just something to show you have a grasp of the rules and you are the first place for the customer base to turn for third-party stuff. The story is the existing skeleton, and the 4.0 monsters and traps just get plugged in. Design-wise, that's not the most desirable approach, I understand, but I believe it's important that you have something on the table that goes with 4.0, and something like that lets you go up to the wire production-wise.
(One of my biggest disappointments of GenCon 05(?) was that your GameMastery Compleat Encounters were not ready to go. At that point in time, I was keen to buy them. But there was just a demo available, which Wes showed off admirably. Had those been in place a year earlier, those products would have had a chance to gain interest a full year before Wizards' own tiles came out. Maybe metal minis were already dead by then, I dunno, but I think you understand the point. You have to have something 4.0 to sell at GenCon.) I don't think you have to have an entire product line that's 4.0 to be in the game. Frankly, a single, superlative story-driven product might have more impact than an entire line.
In my heart, I think the quality you've put into Pathfinder and GameMastery modules has given you an audience that will sustain you through 2008. You have the best creative team in rpgs -- whatever direction you turn business-wise -- your editors and art directors will give you a product that will give you a fighting chance.
Folks,
The clock is ticking, and we still have not seen a copy of the new Fourth Edition rules, nor have we seen a draft of the new SRD. I hear conflicting things from WotC as to when (or even whether) third-party publishers will be provided the rules in time to have 4e-compatible products for next Gen Con. I have spoken before (at length) about the uncomfortable position in which this places Paizo, but I remain hopeful that we will get to look at the rules during the playtest phase and plan accordingly. This was, after all, how things worked for trusted publishers during the 2.0/3.0 transition, so I have every reason to believe that the business folks at WotC understand the benefits of third-party support when it comes to converting their audience. But still we wait.
As it stands there remains a chance that Paizo will not convert to 4.0 next year, mostly because we will not have the materials in hand with enough time to do so. The only viable option, at that point, is to stick with 3.5 for the time being. This opens the option of producing an improved "3.75" somewhere down the road to address a few commonly acknowledged problems with the rules without throwing out the three decades of tradition that have kept D&D, fundamentally, the same game since the very beginnig. At that point, it seems, Paizo would be producing a "Pathfinder" RPG that would be wholly independent of Dungeons & Dragons and Hasbro's plans. Such a plan carries with it considerable risk, but it may be the only serious option available to us for 2008.
Beyond that, it's difficult to say. If Fourth Edition is awesome and if the OGL for the game does not tie our hands creatively or financially, we'll certainly strongly consider converting, and again I'd really like to see the material in time to judge whether or not it's a good game that our audience will like. But we've already passed the deadline for August solicitations in the book trade, and at a certain point the window for us to have Fourth Edition material at launch will close....
In response to your original post, Erik, yes I would like Paizo to update Pathfinder to 4E. I would like Paizo to continue to work well with WotC.
Our group will stay with 3.5, so I hope the next APs will be in 3.5 )or 3.75).
If there is the change to 4.0 I hope for a good story I can use and will check it out. If a conversion back to 3.5 is easy enough I will coninue my subscription, if not I will sadly end it.
A 3.75 version of core rulebooks would be interesting for me too. I play with a lot of houserules but like to check out other solutions that may be better than mine :-)
As long as you guys continue to produce the high quality we all have come to expect and appreciate, I'm sticking with Paizo for the long haul. If that means supporting a Pathfinder RPG, I will certainly do that, and if it means converting to 4.0 I will do that as well.
As for the immediate plans for 4.0 I do not intend to converting for the next 3-4 years. I'm just now preparing to start running STAP, and I will use the 3.5 ruleset for the run of that campaign. In fact, I find it kind of comforting to know that there will not be coming out new splat books every month, and that the books we currently use will also be the ones that are used throughout the campaign.
If and when we convert to 4.0 we will probably not buy any of the books, but will in that case instead use the SRD and any 4.0 products from publishers we know produce high-quality content. WotC and Hasbro are NOT among them, but Paizo is.
I'd say stick with 3.5, but if you guys want to go to 4th, I'll follow.
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I've "converted" to 3.5 OGL rules only little over a year ago, after not playing for a great deal of time. I like the 3.5 rules and from what I've seen from 4.0 it isn't likely that I will convert to 4.0 before 2010.
From a Paizo perspective it is simply the need to crank out great products. For the Adventure Paths that won't be possible if you don't know the rules inside out. Thus my advice would be to stick with the 3.5 rules for APs (#4 and #5?) until you can make an informed decision about whether to convert or not.
Fortunately for me I play so irregularly that I will take forever to finish the adventure paths as it is. I'll have plenty of 3.5 material to last me a long time. I don't look forward to making everything digital like WOTC has done.
So for me Paizo Pathfinder/Gamemastery based on the 3.5 OGL or 3.paizo rules = Win.
In the end, I will follow Paizo for its magnificent products.
Cripes, do I ever sleep at the wrong time. Thread started just after I went to bed, but I had to read all of it before replying! Glad I did too, because Eric’s post on page 3 attends directly to my chief concern.
I am the OGL poster-boy (and what a hideous placard that would be).
I support Paizo because they support OGL (hell, I don't really even "like" RotRL). Wizards released the OGL, but it doesn’t take much to see every time they talk about it they’re choking back bile. Even when they release an incredible add-on despite themselves (Scout class anyone?), it’s locked down hard. Yes, 4.0 will have a SRD, but just how “open” does it look like it is going to be? Not to mention if you keep your ear to the ground waiting for it long enough, eventually you’re going to be whacked by the train.
I say be proactive: Seize the 3.5 OGL. Don’t just use the SRD, champion it. You won’t be able to use the myriad “complete” books, but neither will their hideous brokenness hinder you either. If you do release a 3.5.1 rules update for ease of play, that’s great, but let other gaming companies build from it freely as well. Be the wellspring from which gaming freedom draws.
In addition, I would discourage against an update that would be 3.75 = 3.5 + Iron Heroes content. In that vein, why not just encourage people to purchase….Iron Heroes? As far as a new “Player’s Book” goes, the biggest problem I see is overcoming the “Character creation and XP accumulation” prohibition, though you have some very creative folks on staff. As far as a Pathfinder standalone goes, it would appear with the “Chronicles” line that Paizo is already started along that path. I was not anticipating purchasing these products originally, but if Paizo becomes the home of non-4E materials, I see my opposition crumbling. My vote would not be for another closed gaming system, but rather a continuation of the OGL (the perpetual, non-exclusive one that exists today).
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Also staying with Paizo, I'm not really in the mood for a more miniature focused role/battlegame. Delve yuck!
If Paizo would go 4th edition than I'd rather want to see just how 4E is before continueing my AP/GM subscription. The 3rd AP, August next year would be way too soon for my decission to have formed so I will probably skip that one if it is 4th and might come back in time for the 4th AP if I decide that 4E is a good edition.
The one thing that has me scared way too much is 4.5, you just know they're making that, new versions sell!
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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As far as a new “Player’s Book” goes, the biggest problem I see is overcoming the “Character creation and XP accumulation” prohibition, though you have some very creative folks on staff.
My understanding is that this is a limitation of the d20 License, but is not present in the OGL itself.
--Erik
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Hi everyone,
I'll try my best with my english; i'm a great english reader but no so good writer ;)
When 3E came, I used it almost immediately. The main reason was that unlike AD&D, 3rd edition didn't tell me how to play D&D, it just provided me the tools to do it in whatever the way I wanted to.
My feelings about 4E are that like AD&D, they're trying to tell me HOW to play, and I don't like it. If my players (since I'm usually GMing) are confronting a dragon or a bunch of goblins at 3rd level it's entirely my (and my game group) problem, not theirs.
If I'm wrong with this, I'll provably go on with 4E if it symplifies the whole thing, 'cause what I want is to get fun through the story, not through the game rules.
But going on with 4E doesn't mean to me that I'll buy the books. If I play, I'll use the SRD. That's because I don't mind spending 30-35$ every month in Paizo's adventures, because they are ragingly good, and that's what my players and I want; but I won't spend 90-100$ every 4 years just for keeping WotC at Hasbro's selling expectations.
You Paizo crew don't have to be afraid of me running away as a customer if you go on 4E, I'll assume that a little change in the rules system won't dry your brains from good ideas.
And since your AP seem made for playing twice a week, and I play once a month, I think I have enough 3E adventures for long (and I recently adquired some 2E adventures that are expecting some rule-system-updating ^_^), but I continue buying you, because you are doing a great job.
Thanks for keeping so good feedback,
Aritz
Hey Erik, at least you care! ~slaps you hand away from my wallet that is still in my pocket~ Not that much caring, thank you very much! ~grumbles about Paizo Pocket Pickers~ WotC does that for you!
~GRINS~
Well ... massive money has been spend in my group on 3,5E material, not that much on 3E stuff. Since my favourite setting, the Forgotten Realms will not see an update since virtually the end of next year and virtually being mauled left, right and centre, the hesitency to change to 4E in both rules and in-setting time is quite tangible.
Does the 4E actually offers that much of an improvement? Much of what was wrong with 3E was rooted out with 3,5E. The system works well enough and the cosmetics needed here and there do not require a large scale overhaul of rules and setting anyway.
There is surely no doubt whatsoever that 4E will bring D&D to a new level, but I for one would have no problem with 3,5E material from Paizo or other publishers for a year more or so. It is not that WotC provide us with tons of ready-to-use adventures that makes us dependend on just one publisher.
Essentially, I would not even mind if Third Party publishers continue on the 3,5E path for a longer period, since the basis for 3,5E gaming is there and very much settled. One just hopes that the 3,5E SRDs and OGL does not simply die with the ascendance of 4E.
I love Pathfinder. I just finished reading through PF#2 tonight, and just the few pages you have on Magnimar was enough for me to want to start a completely unrelated (to the AP) campaign in that city. There's a lot of great thought put forth in this setting and it makes it worth my while to continue picking up your products. I can run with just the two volumes I have for many many moons, and never touch the adventure itself. Sure, I'll have to generate the encounters, but I typically do that any way. Having the adventure in addition to the sections on the world is a bonus, not the other way around. (I say the same thing about the Iron Kingdoms books I own. I'll probably always have a game going on in that setting now, simply because I don't think I could ever run out of ideas with what the developers have given me for it.) I'm really looking forward to picking up the gazetteer and the monster book, not too mention the next AP's
That being said, I would prefer they stay in 3.5 or some derivative there of. I don't plan on running games in 4e. I will probably pick up a couple or even all three of the "core" books, but beyond Paizo's offerings (if they switch) I won't be spending my money on 4e products. I'm going to continue buy 2nd, 1st, OD&D and 3/3.5 products.
If Paizo were to go the route of disconnecting themselves from WotC, I'm all for it. I think however, if you had the support of a few other 3rd party companies, a consortium of sorts, you'd have stronger grounding.
I don't know if it's viable not too switch. When I found out that the licence was revoked for Dragon and Dungeon mags, and had been revoked for Dragonlance and Ravenloft as well, I, like many others, anticipated that 4e was on the way. I made a prediction that it would come at the end of 2008... not thinking of Gen-Con. I was wrong. I also predicted that WotC would try and screw over the third party companies. I think I might have been wrong in the method (not having any kind of OGL) but not wrong with what they intend.
I can see your (Paizo's) concern about jumping on the 4e bandwagon and then being screwed over because the license is revoked, or restricted. What options would you have left?
Until you see the new OGL/d20 license, and until you see the new rules Paizo's sort of in a damned if you do, damned if you don't position. The worst thing in my mind is if WotC uses you, Green Ronin, Necromancer Games, Goodman Games, and Mongoose Publishing to bring in all the hold outs because you make better products, then cuts the tether and lets you sink.
I can see them doing that. I want to hope it's not true, but I can see it happening.
What do you think? Assuming the third Pathfinder Adventure Path, Second Darkness, remains 3.5, will you stick around? I know most of you are as in the dark about fourth edition as we are and I understand that it's too early to make a serious call. But how is the 4.0 hype treating you these days? Do you plan to start up a new 4.0 campaign on day 1?
I'll keep my Pathfinder subscription going for the foreseeable future no matter what system the crunchy bits are presented in.
I won't be starting a new 4.0 campaign on day 1. I'm definitely interested to see what Wizards are doing with 4.0, and I'll take a look at the new rules when they're available. But I won't make a decision about any future campaigns until after that.
For what it's worth, my gut feeling is that there will be enough support for Pathfinder to keep it going whether or not it switches to 4.0 - which, as you outlined, depends on whether Wizards gives you sight of the rules and OGL in time.
Watch and were, friend.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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The worst thing in my mind is if WotC uses you, Green Ronin, Necromancer Games, Goodman Games, and Mongoose Publishing to bring in all the hold outs because you make better products, then cuts the tether and lets you sink.
I can see them doing that.
I _can't_ see them doing that.
But I also can't guarantee that the people we work with over there today will be the decision-makers when it comes time for 5th edition.
--Erik
I will buy 4E materials when they are published. Neither I nor my fellow players are excited about converting to 4E on Day One. We are in our 30s and think the rules are too WoW from the previews. That said, we also think there will be some nice rules improvements. This means that we would probably be VERY interested in a Paizo 3.75 version. In fact, such a rules version would probably be one of the things that get us to open our wallets the most because it would be new. We don't play that often (once a month) so we will still be playing Savage Tide for a long time. I like reading the Adventure Paths and admiring the creativity and energy that go into your products, but I won't be able to run any of the Pathfinder stuff for a while. We might, however, skip over a couple of paths for a 3.75E path.
Paz,
Marnak
WOW! *Casts Deep Slumber on the Green One*
Erik? You're still awake. I at least slept for about an hour after a 7 hour gaming session before my insomnia kicked in.
Still here, still supporting Paizo.
I would like to add, that we all see a different side of WotC than does Erik and the folks at Paizo. They do business together, thus professionalism ensues. We are their customers, thus, with WotC, patronizing and platitudes ensue.
I don't claim this is exactly how it is. This is my perception of the way WotC is treating the market. I know you guys see something different when you deal with them, and I know you guys also see how they are treating us. Thank you for not just jumping on the bandwagon (ie: being stupid). Granted, if Paizo wasn't around...who here would be complaining like this at all. That is a question everyone posting here should ask themselves. If there were no Paizo, as the great company it is, I really don't think I would be seeing the light right now. That is one of the reasons that I am going to stick with Paizo regardless of what happens. Because if Paizo were not here, then I would gripe, but ultimately turn to WotC eventually. Paizo has opened me up to more options, better service, and what treatment I should actually recieve as a customer.
Oh, and for Paizo, we are your loyal customers, friendly messageboards, helpful insomniac semi-psychotic overcaffinated staff and great content ensues. Creating happy, loyal, lifelong customer. But I feel like a friend. Sorry, had to inject a little joking sarcasm.
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Here's part of the issue that's probably worth discussing as its own post.
Here's a nightmare scenario: Let's say there is a 4.0 OGL. One reason for such a thing to exist (and we know one is coming, unless plans have changed since Gen Con) is that Wizards knows the largest potential threat to the success of 4.0 is their own game--3.5. I strongly suspect that there are powers at Wizards who view all OGL companies as competition instead of support, and who would prefer that all of us went away and stopped splitting the pie that they believe is their pie in the first place. But pulling the OGL from 4.0 would be a disaster, because a lot of customers have grown used to third-party support and the industry, such as it is, has come to rely on it too.
So let's say there is a 4.0 OGL. Will it open up fourth edition in perpetuity? Will it allow for the creation of "alternate Player's Handbooks"? Will it allow us the bredth of material allowed by the current version of the OGL?
I don't know. In some ways the smart money is to convert...
Burning the midnight oil over there? Talk about sleepless nights!
I'm guessing you have at least been in contact with your counterparts at Necromancer/Goodman/et al. What are THEY thinking of all this?
Of course the 'smart money' would be to convert ... By any chance are you a betting man Erik?
; )
It would be great if we could liken WotC to IBM and Paizo to Mac but alas its not that kind of ballgame ... In the end Paizo will switch to 4 ed, probobly later than sooner but it will happen. And i dont doubt for a second that your product line will still kick as$.
I plan to switch over to 4th edition as long as it is playable with the three core rulebooks as promised (enough classes, spells, feats, monsters etc without the need for online subscription). I'm burned out on D&D 3.5 and am only buying Pathfinder for the flavor and excellent writing. I'm actually playing Monte Cook's World of Darkness right now.
I guess I won't miss the sacred cows as much as some. I've always felt the planes were too big (bigger than most game worlds), the spellcasting system too arcane (ironic!), and the adventure building too cumbersome in 3.5. Stat blocks are a pain but treasure generation and division was the biggest headache for me. Getting rid of huge treasure hoards is a big draw for me in 4th edition.
My recommendation for Paizo would be to switch to 4th edition when feasible but really start to distance yourselves from Wizards at that point. For instance, Malhavoc Press produced generic D&D books but also Arcana Evolved and Iron Heroes. Green Ronin has True20, Warhammer, and M&M. Mongoose now has RuneQuest and Traveller.
I'd love to see a Paizo ruleset using 4th edition ideas but with your take on classes, classic monsters, etc. Built up slowly over time. After all, sourcebooks usually sell well and having a Paizo spin on things could have a large appeal. Necromancer Games sounds like it is going to cover "lost" monsters from previous editions. Maybe Paizo could do the same with classes and races.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Since I'm the one with the most disposable income in the group, I can say that if we get a Paizo Handbook with the 3.x engine, I'd buy a copy for each of my players. That's between 5-7 copies. And a Paizo Master's Guide.
Would a Paizo Beastary has stats for the Paizo Golem?
I don't think it is a good idea for Pathfinder to develop into its own ruleset. The entire idea of a 3.75 edition just sounds wrong to me.
I would not mind at all if the third Pathfinder series was not 4th edition, but if the fourth or the fifth stuck with 3.5, I might have to move on. I like the things that WOTC have shown us regarding 4.0, and I'm not satisfied with 3.5 at all anymore. I'm ready to change, and I really hope that Pathfinder will be too.
I would like to support Paizo if you guys came up with your own ruleset, but I'm not sure that I could. My players like to play D&D, and when they see a new D&D book coming out, and I say that they can't use it in my campaign (because I don't have time to modify the D&D 4E rules to the Paizo 3.75 rules), they would not be happy.
Basically, I really hope that Pathfinder, and Paizo, will stick with D&D 4E, but I don't expect to be playing it on day one or anything, so a slow switch is no problem.
First off, im a huge fan of what you guys pull out of your magic hats your stuff is some of the best 3.5 material i have come across.
About a switch to 4th edition, i am not sure. Some of the things that have been put forward by WOTC seems pretty good, but most of it, if not all of it is still in "beta" mode and so remains to be seen how it will turn out in the end.
Personally i would welcome a new edition, 3.5 has gotten unwieldy in much the same way as 2nd edition was, and could use a cleanup. And if they retain some of the mechanics from the Saga edition rules for Star Wars i am sure it will be great fun to play.
But im am so in love with your new Varisia setting that if you decide not to go down the 4th road, i will chose to remain in 3.5.
All in all i hope that the SRD will give you enough creative and finacial freedoms so a switch to th will be viable.
I guess it all boils down to this:
You are the best at what you do and i will continue to support you no matter what you decide.
Right now, the 3.5 OGL forms a baseline that is true to the 30-year spirit of the game. The OGL is remarkably inclusive in scope, covering all but a handful of monsters, some campaign-setting-specific deities, and certain elements of the planar cosmology. Third-party publishers may use this material in an infinite number of ways, including releasing adventure modules, revised Player's Handbooks, creting derivative games like Mutants & Masterminds, etc. With the inclusion of the monsters from Necromancer's "Tome of Horrors," which are also Open, you've basically got the toolset to tell stories like the ones our company has been publishing for five years, and tell them well.
This is the bottom line for me. I realize that Paizo will need to do what is in its best interest, but my best interests as a player and a consumer are served by sticking with v.3.5, with tweaks and house rules to get it just right for my purposes. I have every reason to believe that 4E will not serve my best interests, either as a player or as a consumer, so I'm not converting next year (or indeed any year).
I'd love it if my best interests and Paizo's coincided but I don't expect that to be the case. As you said, there's a good likelihood that some company won't make the switch and will serve as a rallying point for those displeased with 4E. That company will get my support provided I'm happy with the quality of their products. At the moment, though, Paizo is one of the few companies whose products I buy sight unseen, because there's no question of their quality. If Paizo sticked with v.3.5 or created its own compatible 3.75E, you'd have me forever.
But, as I've said, I'm just one eccentric old guy, so I doubt I matter much in the grand scheme of things. Do what's best for your long-term success and you'll have my best wishes and respect, even if, should you convert to 4E, you no longer have my dollars. I sure don't envy the choice you have to make, but I know that your decision will be what you think is best for you and I can't begrudge you that.
I don't feel that 3.5 has come even close exhausting its potential yet. My players lament that they haven't been able to explore a large number of the character concepts they'd like to, and I have a large reservoir of campaigns/scenarios I'd like to run. As I have no plans to covert from 3.5 any support that Paizo gave it would be welcomed and purchased. If Paizo produced a 3.75 that smoothed some of the rough edges, while honoring the traditions of the past, even better.
I don't feel that 3.5 has come even close exhausting its potential yet. My players lament that they haven't been able to explore a large number of the character concepts they'd like to, and I have a large reservoir of campaigns/scenarios I'd like to run. As I have no plans to covert from 3.5 any support that Paizo gave it would be welcomed and purchased. If Paizo produced a 3.75 that smoothed some of the rough edges, while honoring the traditions of the past, even better.
Krell raises a great point. A quick summary of how many sessions I have been a player in since 3.0 came out, about 20. Ones where I DMed? About 900-1000 I'd guess. Yes, those figures are correct, or maybe low. My wife and I game together, its our hobby. 3-4 sometimes more times a week.
I have an endless list of characters I want to play, provided I can get a group together again where I am not the permaDM. Now theres Pathfinder. Makes me want to DM. I am trying to force myself to stop.
There is still a lot to do for 3.5 and its many incarnations.