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I think that if Paizo can get even an informal agreement with companies like Green Ronin, Necromancer games and the others to sort of stick together in a 3.5 or 3.75 then I believe that success would be assured.
That would lessen the amount of quality publishers supporting 4.0 and would leave a large amount of good material producers supporting 3.5+. I would love to see Paizo grab some allies from these companies and forge a new path.
my thoughts.
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As stated in other threads, I intend to support Paizo through subscriptions & buying Planet Stories releases (even though we're still playing 2nd Edition) regardless of which direction you guys go. If Paizo releases a 3.75 Edition, I'm sure my group will want to be part of it. The quality of your work has earned our loyalty & respect.
Eric,
I have made my position on 4.0 known. I will not be buying in. I will be staying FIRMLY in 3.5. If you make the decision to break from WotC, I'll be there beside you. You guys have fantastic products and amazing ideas.
Ultimately the decision is yours. Yes, I am a Paizo fanboy. I have made the decision to cut any purchases from WotC. Even future 3.5 rulebooks. There are enough 3.5 3rd Party sources out there that have amazing work to fuel my hobby and imagination for years to come.
Chris
I'd be interested in being a fly on the wall at WotC if such a Third Party Coup d'etat were staged.
WotC Sales Director: "Paizo did what?! Alright, its time to pull out the Super Ultra-rare Mithral Foil cards from the vault."
WotC Underling: "But sir, those are just limited release Magic! cards."
WotC Sales Director: *Sweating profusely* "Exactly! And when I use them...eheh...I'm already in control of the Goddess! The world will be my oyster! Mwahaha!"
*Now staring at a picture of Mike McArtor's Paizo avatar. Pointing at it*
"Face it! You don't stand a chance Dragon-Boy!"
WotC Mook: *runs for it*
Lets see if anyone can pull out the dialogue I used from that. I am pretty sure I used the lines somewhat out of sequence. But just hear the voice saying the lines...I still remember.
I'm not attached to 3.5 in the way that many of the posters here seem to be.
I've been away from the hobby for many years specifically due to not having enough time to create my own stuff to DM - so when I found out about Adventure Paths a couple of months ago (and that they were tasty and good for you), I got back into D&D. Picked up the 3.5 rulebooks (and so much better than versions 1&2 they are too), and started subscribing to Pathfinder. And it's great.
I like playing D&D. I like GMing D&D. None of my friends or I have enough time to create their own homebrew settings any more, so it's Adventure Paths all the way.
Which, as far as I can tell, means Paizo. And certainly if the quality of RotRLs is maintained.
As for 4th: From what I've seen so far, I like it. I haven't spent thousands of dollars on 3.5 sourcebooks, the basic world seems interesting, and I can't get worked up about a monster coming from a different plane than it used to. And when people start blathering on about the Great Wheel I have no idea at all what they're talking about and really don't care.
If the mechanics for 4th are easier and more exciting than 3rd to play with, then that's great. If not, I won't switch. It's too early to tell.
If the mechanics for 3.Paizo are easier and more exciting than 3rd to play with, then that's great. If not, I won't switch. It's too early to tell.
The bottom line is: I want well-constructed and fun APs that I can run with little prep. If you can make the mechanics better by switching to 3.Paizo or 4, that gets a big thumbs up from me and I'll buy the relevant core books as well, but it isn't going to be the decider as to whether I continue to buy the APs.
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As far as a new “Player’s Book” goes, the biggest problem I see is overcoming the “Character creation and XP accumulation” prohibition, though you have some very creative folks on staff.My understanding is that this is a limitation of the d20 License, but is not present in the OGL itself.
--Erik
That depends upon which restriction you mean. There are two.
d20 products may not include rules for character generation or experience, they must reference those found in D&D. They may not create their own.
OGL products may not reference the systems in the D&D books, but may include their own new systems. So if you want an OGL game that is fully self-supporting, you need to create your own character generation and advancement rules.
I'M GOING 4TH: If 4th edition really does make the job of running adventures easier, I'm switching as soon as I can (i.e. at the end of whatever adventure path I'm currently running). I'm entering my second major burn-out phase as a 3.x DM, despite running exclusively Paizo adventures. The current rule-set is so cumbersome that I can't pay attention to everything going on at the table, and simultaneously do justice to even pre-written adventures. And the overwhelming focus on numbers in 3.x means that it's very hard to convince my group of players to role-play and interact with the world; a simpler rule-set will allow more focus on other things than just "what's my attack roll with all these buffs added in."
ON THE OTHER HAND, that probably won't keep me from buying the third Pathfinder AP. I figure that no matter how different the new rules are, it will still be possible to use the adventure path's story and just convert monsters etc. as needed. In fact, I imagine that this community will be involved in doing unofficial conversions of the existing Paizo adventure paths at some point. If nothing else, converting an existing adventure will be a useful activity for me to learn the ins and outs of the new rules.
I'm really not expecting 4th edition to fail. If Paizo creates a new edition (3.75) while Wizards is publishing 4th edition, I'm probably going to have to go with Wizards and 4.0 - even though I prefer Paizo's products, I desperately need a simpler rule set, and I just don't see any way to get to a simpler rule-set with 3.x rules.
FINAL TALLY:
- Switching to 4th edition
- Willing to buy 3.5 adventures for a while
- Willing to buy setting materials for even longer
- NOT interested in a "3.75 upgrade"
The long-term viability of sticking with OGL based products concerns me (from the perspective of a consumer who thinks your brand creates quality product). There are a couple assumptions we both (both being Paizo the company and Kettite the consumer) must make:
1) Hasbro/WotC will continue to evolve the D&D game through new editions and rules changes over the course of time.
2) Over the course of time, if Hasbro/WotC does not update and continue the OGL, the "original OGL" relating to edition 3.5 will be further and further removed from claiming that it's products are linked to "the world's most popular role-playing game". This will make products based on the 3.5 OGL more and more of a niche product and pigeon-holed into an "older" product line with less appeal to new consumers.
Let us forecast 5 or so years down the line, if you do not convert. How will you market your game to new players? "We're what D&D used to be!" How will you directly compete against a giant like Hasbro? The Paizo business model as it currently stands rides the coat-tails of D&D. You are built on providing content for somebody else's toy. If you choose not to evolve with changes to the toy, then you will be marketing your own game. The track record for successful continuous sales on D&D knock-offs is... are there any other medieval fantasy based tabletop role-playing games successful enough to sustain a company of your size in existence that haven't evolved to provide very different content?
I certainly do not question the ability for Paizo's current stable of employees to create exciting product under the OGL. However, if you wish to continue to grow your company for the long haul and you all would like to make a long-term career of growing Paizo, I cannot imagine your ability to do so without eventual conversion or an outright attempt to beat Hasbro at their own game (a daunting task).
Sorry for the rambling nature of this post; I'm at work and really shouldn't be doing this, but the topic grabbed me and I wanted to throw a few thoughts out. Basically I'm asking this: is it your company goal to grab as much bucks as you can in the short term based on 4E backlash and then fold up shop and get new jobs in a few years when that market dries up, or do you want Paizo to compete as a standard-bearer in the role-playing game industry for years to come? How will non-conversion make Paizo a long-term successful business venture?
What do YOU want Paizo to do?
Why, stick with 3.5 and never give 4e another thought, of course. But then, I'm selfish that way. In any case, the only way I'd continue buying Paizo's products are if they're 3.5. As soon as Paizo goes the 4e route, my purchases will immediately stop.
(And, while I am a professional accountant and "suit" so to speak, I don't know Paizo's business situation from my rear end. So I can only speak for myself and my personal wishes - business realities might make my preference a pipe dream.)
Folks ... <snip>
What do you think? ... <snip>
Hi Erik,
as formerly mentioned sometimes, I AM a 3.5 player and I STAY a 3.5 player. I don't care about 4.0 and think (caution: just my 10 eurocent) WOTC ideas for 4.0 more or less idiotic.
But.
I was 4 days on the ESSEN GAME FAIR "SPIEL" in Essen, Germany last weekend, europes largest (I guess) game fair. It has a huge RPG-part and the german and part of the european rpg-industry meets there. I am a very very VERY little part of this industry which has the opportunity to be able to take a peek "behind the curtain" sometimes.
Here some of my experiences, without any further explaration - subjective of course, I made no census:
- you could buy 3.0/3.5 products for nearly nothing (I took a trunk of books home, mostly missing necromancer, scarred lands, kalamar, malhavoc) - for 3 to 5 euros per book - and I don't mean 32 page-books, I mean thick hardcover 200+ page-books. And: they weren't selling well! I expected to see the shelves half empty after one or two days, but they weren't 1/4 empty after all four days.
- 4.0 played nearly no role - questions about it were answered with "we'll see" or "we don't know" or mostly "we don't care"
- the market stagnates - FLGS are closing (not all, but some)
- small companies with great ideas or an extraordinary quality have improved sells - not the ones with the 100th "complete new" fantasy-background, but those with really fresh ideas and superb design.
This - of course - is only my point of view - other visitors may have complete other insights.
My resumee is: If I were in a position to decide upon the future of an rpg-company in these times, I would try to put myself into a unique selling position, not as "one of the 4.0 producers" but as "those with the great campaign" or "the company with the exciting adventures". WOTC has online-content? I would make a huge amount of stuff for the adventures free for download. Maps, Characters, ideas, maybe these kind of articles in dragon that accompanied the dungeon-campaigns ("Wyrmnotes" etc.). WOTC has a new Ruleset? I would make my own PHB, based on OGL 3.5, maybe with background and monsters for my campaign.
And I would make it CHEAP (or maybe free, if it is in any way possible) on my website. Free? The best-selling book? Yes. If I don't have to reinvent the rules, just make a fine layout about an existing document, I can sell if for a few bucks printed or give it away for free. Layout isn't that expensive and everybody understands it, when a free product has recycled art in it. And, if a large group of players have my free product, they are maybe more willing to buy my supplements for this product and for my great campaign.
The unique selling position is the idea, the world, the campaign. NOT if dodge works better. NOT if there is a mindflayer in it or not.
... but maybe the american market is in a different position.
Don't fork the project. What I recommend is that if fourth edition is not feasible or you decide to keep supporting the remaining 3.5 userbase, you should include optional variant rules as Pathfinder bonus content - simplified grappling, for example. Allow players of both 3.5 and "3.P" to play equally, even while encouraging the use of game-improving "P" variants.
By deliberately forking D&D in order to compete with WotC's flagship product, you would be at loggerheads with Wizards instead of working with them to round out the market. Fourth edition has serious potential and it's not something I think you want to throw away on some bad feelings.
This bears mentioning:
Long term, if Paizo is to survive and prosper, what it needs to do is inculcate "brand loyalty" in its customers. To some extent, you already have that, with plenty of people saying they'll stick with Paizo whether it goes 4E or not. But, ultimately, to achieve the kind of loyalty the company probably needs to last, you need more than that and, all personal preferences aside, I don't see being a support company for another company's product being viable. By tying Paizo's fate to what WotC/Hasbro decides now or in the future, you're limiting your options and ensuring that, every few years, you're again faced with the decision of upgrading or not upgrading to the latest edition.
Now, maybe that doesn't matter. Maybe this seems more frustrating and angst-inducing than it is. After all, you know better the realities of your company. My own feeling, though, is that companies like Green Ronin have taken the right tack: they have their own products like Mutants & Masterminds and True20, which are "edition proof." Sure, they don't command the same numbers as WotC does, but they don't need to do so. Neither does Paizo. Even if you do convert to 4E, I would heartily recommend planning some way to avoid being in the situation come 4.5E or 5E or whatever. Paizo desperately needs brand loyalty and edition proofing, so it'd make sense to consider going your own way at some point anyway. Maybe 4E marks a good time to make the move or not, but it's a move you should consider for the future.
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Right. That was a massive and long read, but that's what I get for sleeping.
I don't have the time or inclination to go into great detail about what I think, but I'm going to touch on what I plan to do, and what I see a lot of people probably doing.
I'll be getting the 4.0 core books, largely just to see what it's all about and find out if I like the system. Chances are if Paizo switches to the system, I'll stick with Paizo, since they'll make sure I enjoy the system. That could be next year, or the year after - if/when Paizo switches, I'll stick with.
At the same time, if Paizo decides to remain wholly 3.5 (and even more so if they develop and publish their own core rule books), I'm going to maintain my subscription. I and my players aren't really picky about version so much that the game is -fun-. I'll always be able to pull out an adventure and run it. I think that if Paizo does stick with 3.X, that you -should- publish core rules for it. I'd buy it, and I would probably need those books if I have a new player.
In truth, I'm much more interested in what Paizo's doing than in what WoTC is doing. That doesn't mean I think WoTC's bad, or evil, and I don't hate them. But the material I get from them compared to what I get from Paizo just doesn't compare.
So to sum up: Paizo 4 Life.
When 4E comes out I will be buying the Players Handbook and then deciding if I like what they did with the rules.
To me it does matter which version of the rules Paizo (or any other company uses) as I tend not to run anything published as is, but steal ideas, NPC's, maps and the like.
So, I'll do exactly the same with 3.5, 3.75 and 4e adventures.
All you guys have to do is make interesting plots and NPC's for me to steal... ahem... borrow... and I will be happy.
I can say with 100% confidence that I will NOT be converting to 4E (or 3.75 or whatever the heck else they're calling it).
This is the third freakin' edition of D&D to be released in the past 10 years. In june 2008 we'll have 4E. Then, in June 2010 we'll have 4.5E.
Then they'll skip a whole edition and go to 6E in June of 2012 just for fun.
Enough is enough.
While I certainly enjoy product support for a game I'm playing I am NOT going to keep buying into new editions. Wizards and other publishers has put out thousands of pages worth of 3.5 stuff - enough adventure material for me to be able to run campaigns for the next 20 years or so. I can't think of any good reasons to now switch over to a new edition, re-buy all the sourcebooks I already own - and then have them switch the edition again.
Cripes, its almost like a new version of MS Windows comming out every 3 or so years - and the funny thing is that other than needing the newer versions to run new programs I honestly haven't seen all that substantial a change in how I use my computer. Funny that...
Anyway, were this my Best Possible World I'd keep 3.5 around for at least a decade of time (let's get some freakin' milage from these rules!) and I'd keep Paizo as the publishers of Dungon and Dragon Magazines. This "Digital Initiative" rubbish is just not compelling to me: I WANT my full-color, glossy, article-filled magazines to carry around, read, and (best yet) collect. Nobody is going to do Dungeon or Dragon like Paizo did it (thank you Eric and Co. for the true Golden Years of Dungeon and Dragon!) - and I'll be using the resources already published for my campaigns now and in the future.
Flush 4th Edition.
Chief Technical Officer
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If they DO give them the 4.0 OGL, one way or another it's a no-brainer all depending on whether or not 4.0 sucks.
Sadly, it's *not* a no-brainer at all, because it's just not that black-and-white. Sure, if everybody loves it, we'll convert. And if everyone in the market agrees it's a flaming pile, we won't. But let's face it—neither of those cases is actually the most likely.
What if it's just ok? What if it's just good enough to draw half of our current audience in, but just bad enough to keep the other half away? In that case, either way, we stand to lose a big chunk of our audience. That's the worst case scenario for us. Wizards can probably afford to keep going at half-speed for a while while they try to fix it, but our pockets aren't as deep—if we lose half of our customers for a year, we're toast.
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As I've stated before, my group will probably stick with 3.5E for a good while, since we are in the middle of campaigns we don't want to just abandon. Not to mention that I am leery of immmediately purchasing 4E, thinking that we stand a better-than-average chance of seeing update 4.5ish stuff a year or two from initial release.
All that being said, I am increasingly willing to give my loyalty to Paizo for many years. Paizo is a company with incredibly talented people, and I feel that you actually respect my thoughts and the thoughts of my fellow gamers. In short, you make me feel as if you want ME as a customer. Keep up the good work.
Edit: And just as an aside, as of this moment, you have gained one more Pathfinder Subscriber.
Personally, I would prefer if Paizo's future offerings are 3.5, or if Paizo does go with 4th Ed. that there is at least 'backward compatibility' to 3.5 Either with a few extra pages explaining how to convert to 3.5 or perhaps with free, or very inexpensive, web enhancements.
Although it may fill customer needs, I imagine that it would be cost prohibitive to produce 3.5 and 4.0 versions of each product.
I'll continue to buy 3.5 products from quality 3rd parties such as Paizo, but more that likely if 3.5 support stops, so does my spending.
I don't hate WotC or 4.0, but I have no plans to switch because I've sunk way too much money into 3.5 products (as well as other systems such as M&M, T20, nWoD) and I just can't see starting all over yet again. I don't get to play enough, and I'm at a point where I can't justify spending more money on stuff that is going to sit on my shelves.
My $0.02
Roger
I would have to say that Paizo should stick with 3.5 until they get a chance to see the 4.0 rules. Given the scheduling constraints that Paizo faces (and the commitment to NOT switching rules-sets in the middle of an AP), if that means the APs won't convert to 4.0 until 2009, I (and a large chunk of the participants on this site, from the sound of it) will still purchase them. Whether that business will be enough to keep the 3.5 Pathfinders economically viable is the question.
I will say that given the quality of Paizo's products and the professionalism of the staff, there should be enough of a market for 3.5 Pathfinder to be profitable for a while. Unless the 4.0 rules-set completely sucks, however, Paizo will almost have to convert. Of course, if 4.0 flops, then I think Paizo would be in an a good position to come out with a "Revised 3.5" that would build on 30+ years of tradition and do it RIGHT.
I trust the Paizo staff to create quality products no matter what rules-set they are using.
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Even if you stay with 3.5 I will convert them to 4th ed. Although that will take time, for me it will be time better spent than world building and adventure design. It should be even easier if WotC succeed in cutting down the prep time with 4th ed.
You're assuming things are convertible. WoTC's already publicly said "don't bother". No one, no matter how smart and dilligent, could convert apples into oranges.
What if it's just ok? What if it's just good enough to draw half of our current audience in, but just bad enough to keep the other half away? In that case, either way, we stand to lose a big chunk of our audience. That's the worst case scenario for us. Wizards can probably afford to keep going at half-speed for a while while they try to fix it, but our pockets aren't as deep—if we lose half of our customers for a year, we're toast.
And, unfortunately, this is probably the most-likely scenario.
I wish I had an answer for you...
I know this is a late post (good lord, 6 pages since yesterday.)
But here's my two cents, which I have seen repeated by others:
I will side with Paizo, whatever you guys do. Both because I want to run GameMastery and Pathfinder stuff (because it's really good stuff), but also because I trust your judgement. If Paizo doesn't feel that 4E is worth switching to, then it isn't. If Paizo feels that a '3.75' (3.P is a good name) is worth releasing, then it is. If Paizo ships Second Darkness under 3.5, then switches to 4E, then I can be confident that 4E is a quality product worth waiting for.
In short, I will be choosing my edition to maximize my access to Paizo stuff.
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I will almost certainly buy some 4.0 stuff, but the truth is that the bulk of my gaming money has gone to Paizo for some time and will continue to do so. If you guys stay 3.5 (or 3.75, or 3.P), I'm with you. You've treated us respectfully and honestly, you're customer service is amazing, and damn it, your product is the best on the market. I will buy Pathfinder regardless of edition and my new question for WotC will be, "Is this Pathfinder compatible?"
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If they DO give them the 4.0 OGL, one way or another it's a no-brainer all depending on whether or not 4.0 sucks.Sadly, it's *not* a no-brainer at all, because it's just not that black-and-white. Sure, if everybody loves it, we'll convert. And if everyone in the market agrees it's a flaming pile, we won't. But let's face it—neither of those cases is actually the most likely.
What if it's just ok? What if it's just good enough to draw half of our current audience in, but just bad enough to keep the other half away? In that case, either way, we stand to lose a big chunk of our audience. That's the worst case scenario for us. Wizards can probably afford to keep going at half-speed for a while while they try to fix it, but our pockets aren't as deep—if we lose half of our customers for a year, we're toast.
Yeah, that's true. I pretty much stand corrected.
Well, what happens when 4.5 comes out? When 5.0 comes out? How many storms does Paizo weather under Wizards' protective wing?And um, I'd be thinking about THAT too if it was my money. How's my money going to do having to react to every one of WOTC's major business decisions?
I suspect at least one publisher will decide to stick with it and be the rallying base for all of the players who are not ready to follow Hasbro down the path they're going.Whether or not that company will be Paizo very much remains to be seen, but it very much remains an open question.
Purely speculation. But I would like to ask. How confident are you that should Paizo chose to be that company would you be able to to profit well from it? I know that you couldn't count on just us here at the Paizo community.
Out of all the things that are possible, the one I fear the most would be Paizo being unable to make its own money. You all need your money to keep publishing successfully.
I have no doubt that if Paizo chose that route and if it were a success, growing from that point would be easy. It's the first step in the journey that is the toughest to take.
Warning: Threadjack alert.
3.5+ - ugh
3.75 - sounds "fractional"
3.Paizo - cumbersome
3.P - naming goodness.I propose 3.P as the abbreviated name of a Paizo-inspired revision to 3.5.
How about 3.Pi?
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How about 3.Pi?Warning: Threadjack alert.
3.5+ - ugh
3.75 - sounds "fractional"
3.Paizo - cumbersome
3.P - naming goodness.I propose 3.P as the abbreviated name of a Paizo-inspired revision to 3.5.
Truth be told, I suspect the 3.x names would be problematic for anyone other than WotC to use, and not neccesarilly desirable.
A better name would be somethign like, oh I don't know, "Pathfinder Chronicles."
I'll just say this, I really, really like the Paizo products alot.
From what I know about 4E so far, I would play it, but probably not enjoy running it.
Since I mostly (95%) run games, if you switched to 4E you'd lose me as a customer.
When 4E comes out I plan on trying it out as a player, but any games that I run will be 3.5.
I'll add my voice to this by adding that no matter what I will be buying Pathfinder. It is by far the best product I have seen in some time and I hope it continues with one great product after another.
That said I will be going to 4e at some point as most of my players are that "Younger" generation and are eagerly looking forward to the new edition.
Whatever you do, don't stick with 3.5. Either convert to 4th or launch your own game.
If you stick with 3.5 after 4th is released, the upgraders will move on and you may never get them back, and your audience will be limited to the people who don't upgrade. They may be a substantial percentage of your current base, of course, but if you later move to 4th you'll alienate them AND have to win back the people who left to buy 4th. If you don't go you have a ever-shrinking pool of customers. It's a lose-lose decision.
Yes, somebody's going to make money selling to the 3.5 base, but after a year or two the only way to keep that base alive is to produce your own edition of the game anyway.
Also, if WW would give it to you, Swords and Sorcery would be the perfect name for this game.
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What do you think? Assuming the third Pathfinder Adventure Path, Second Darkness, remains 3.5, will you stick around? I know most of you are as in the dark about fourth edition as we are and I understand that it's too early to make a serious call. But how is the 4.0 hype treating you these days? Do you plan to start up a new 4.0 campaign on day 1?
What do YOU want Paizo to do?
Assuming that I like the storyline of "Second Darkness" (and that's proably a pretty good assumption), then I'll definitely stick around. In all honesty, I'd rather see "Second Darkness" be something for 3.5 than for 4.0.
I'm taking a "wait and see" approach with 4.0. Even if I convert over to 4.0, I don't think that'll be happening until 2009 at the earliest.
So count me in. :)
Mr. Mona,
If you build it, I'll buy it.
If there is a "3.75" PHB made available for less than $50 (less than $40, but for the guys who brought be the best years of Dungeon EVAR? I'll make an exception), if such a book sees publication, I WILL buy it.
Hell, a "3.75" MM and DMG wouldn't be a miss either (I'll get over the loss of the Mind Flayers and other so-called "iconic" monsters).
At first I was cautiously optimistic about 4.0.
Then as more and more of the plan has been revealed... Well, not so much.
Finally, I have decided I will not be buying 4.0. My plan is to buy less and less from WotC in general, but this? A "3.75" will do two things.
1 ) (Except for their gorram shiny Dungeon Tiles) I'll leave WotC behind for good.
2 ) I'll spend a lot of money at Paizo.com :)
I was prepared to say good buy to d20 for good. I've got Savage Worlds for action and dungeon crawling, and oodles of free stuff from all over online for everything else.
"3.75" would re-set the rules glut that has mad 3.5 a train wreck that reminds this middle aged gamer of late 2.0 (two words. Players'. Options.)
Now, honestly, I would rather see a more distinct house system both here and at Privateer Press (and I hope someone from there is reading this... Iron Kingdoms "3.75?"), but if you publish core books and then make money, you know, supporting? The game? (I know, what a novel and innovative concept)
I'm in!
Bring it on and lets roll!
Sincerely,
S.L. Shirley (who still needs to spend his "bye-bye Dungeon" credit...)
If Second Darkness is still 3.5, will I buy it?
Honestly, it primarily depends on:
A) How cool it is
B) How much it fits my group
C) Whether, upon seeing the 4e rules, my group wants to convert sooner or later (I'm guessing later, but you can't always predict your reaction once your hands are on it)
and, of lesser concern, but still factored into my subconscious:
D) Where I am financially (there's probably some ratio of how likely I am to run an adventure to how much extra money I can spare that determines if I'll buy or not. I've bought many, many adventures that I honestly know I will never run.)
E) To be frank, the odds of newer authors writing for Paizo (Again, these are small concerns, but I'm trying to do some freelance writing, and if the odds are higher of being published, I will certainly be more likely to stay current with a company's products.)
F) Related to D - the subscription price and benefits. If it's still a good deal to stay subscribed, I'm more likely to stay with it even if there is a particular arc I may not run (for example, I'm not sure I'm ever going to run Rise of the Runelords, but Crimson Throne sounds quite likely, so the convenience of just staying subscribed factors in).
So is Second Darkness is great (I figure it will be), and a fit for my group (unfortunately may or may not be, you never know), then I'll definitely buy it. If I might not run it, there's still some factors that could get me to buy it, especially if they all aligned.
As for Pathfinder RPG/3.75/3.Paizo - I really don't care. If it's good, handy, and not expensive, I'd probably buy it. But I'm not hoping for one, and the idea doesn't overly excite me like it does some others.
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OK, here goes, direct personal answers:
>>ERIK ASKS: Are there enough players willing to make a break from Wizards of the Coast and the Dungeons & Dragons brand to sustain a healthy 3.5-based Pathfinder business?
It's FASCINATING you lumped WotC and D&D together, because of recent my group is so insulted and of such low opinion of WotC that even if 4E D&D was neat we no doubt STILL wouldn't get it. We don't need it. And we certainly don't need their half-assed info release mumbo jumbo. Very simply, they lost our respect. Would you buy from a company that you didn't respect? No, me neither, which is why my gaming dollars these days go to Paizo.
>>ERIK ASKS: What do you think? Assuming the third Pathfinder Adventure Path, Second Darkness, remains 3.5, will you stick around?
I would be very, very pleased, and you bet I would stick around. I don't expect it, so if it happened it would be even more of a treat. To be honest, however, Paizo=Pathfinder means more to me and my future of gaming than does WotC=D&D.
>>ERIK ASKS: I know most of you are as in the dark about fourth edition as we are and I understand that it's too early to make a serious call. But how is the 4.0 hype treating you these days?
Terribly. I don't like any of it. Oh, wait, I mean some of it sounds neat in the way Earthdawn or Warhammer did back in the day, as in: It's A Different Game than the D&D I even know and play. The changes leave me sour and confused.
>>ERIK ASKS: Do you plan to start up a new 4.0 campaign on day 1?
Heck no. Not the least is when I know in another couple years WotC will be on their board declaring how ignorant they were and how ill-conceived the 4.0 rules are, and that 5E will be even better.
>>ERIK ASKS: What do YOU want Paizo to do?
Whatever is best for Paizo. Wow, I didn't expect to write that just now! Personally, my heartfelt reaction is "stick with 3.5/3.P". But that's selfish.
You know, I wouldn't be adverse to you making Pathfinder 3.5 and your gamemastery adventures 4.0 (which can be planned in a shorter stage, I'm guessing) and you seeing for yourself how sales go, if that were even remotely possible.
*******************As in interesting sidenote: I have enough 3.5 stuff to last me years, but if the pathfinder series continues the way I've seen so far, I would easily KEEP buying 3.5 stuff in lieu of the older 3.5 stuff I already have because it's that intriguing to me.*********
I hope this helps.
-DM Jeff
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What if it's just ok? What if it's just good enough to draw half of our current audience in, but just bad enough to keep the other half away? In that case, either way, we stand to lose a big chunk of our audience.
Is it totally unrealistic to support both? A whole lot of information in both Pathfinder and Gamemastery is really pretty generic. Is it unrealistic to do two stat blocks for the creatures in question? (And spells and items and traps... But traps and items don't take that much of a word count.)
Just kind of wondering if it actually has to be one or the other.
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Mr. Mona,
Personally, I plan to stay with 3rd edition (in some flavor), so from my perspective I'd prefer you to stay with 3.5 or release a 3.75/3.P/whatever.
On a more global level, would it be impossible to support both 3.5 and 4.0 for the next two years or so? To me this seems to have several advantages:
1. You don't lose half of your customers at the transition -- everyone can keep buying Paizo.
2. You can take the time to see if the terms of the OGL will actually let you make money supporting 4e. If so, you can leave 3.5 behind without losing much more than the time it took to produce two sets of statblocks, etc.
3. Whatever company continues to support 3.5 will have a captive audience, at least for a little while. While this audience might shrink (off topic slightly -- though not as quickly as some predict, because those of us who go back to the blue box now have kids, and they are going to learn the edition we play, so there will be some new blood coming in), it's going to flock to whichever company sticks with them. If you decide you can't make money under the 4.0 license, you've already got an in with the natural audience for Paizo's ruleset.
4. The main advantage (I think) is that you can wait until you have enough information to make the final commitment. It's more work in the meantime, but you can at least make an informed decision.
I guess there are a few disadvantages:
1. IIRC, James Jacobs wrote somewhere that doing two sets of statblocks would be nuts. I don't really have a sense for how much time that would take you, but if it slows down getting products out the door too much, I can see that being a problem.
2. You probably can't print the books in both formats, so I guess one of the versions would have to be pdf-only, a pdf add-on, or some sort of insert/supplement. I don't know how well that would work.
3. I imagine that continuing to support an older edition, even in part, might damage your relationship with Wizards.
Those are my thoughts, for whatever they're worth. I do appreciate the work you've been doing, and the fact that you're interested in our input. I hope whatever path you choose works out for Paizo.
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I've already said my support goes wherever Paizo leads.
I sincerely desire the Paizo sticks with 3.5 for as long as is financially sound (any Paizo is better than no Paizo). I would be extremely interested in a 3.Paizo version.
In addition...whats to say that an additional branch of Gamemastery modules can't tackle the 4e version? I understand that there is the small matter of authoring/art/editing/layout/printing, but didn't the Open Call teach us anything? 12 out of 168 did were found to be good enought to go to the second round. There is a lot of talent around here...
What can we (the community, fans, friends, and supporters) do for you?
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What if it's just ok? What if it's just good enough to draw half of our current audience in, but just bad enough to keep the other half away? In that case, either way, we stand to lose a big chunk of our audience.Is it totally unrealistic to support both? A whole lot of information in both Pathfinder and Gamemastery is really pretty generic. Is it unrealistic to do two stat blocks for the creatures in question? (And spells and items and traps... But traps and items don't take that much of a word count.)
Just kind of wondering if it actually has to be one or the other.
I thought about that too, Moff. My conclusion is this: Paizo won't be able to see if that's doable until they see the 4e. SRD and can decide if compatible adventures can be easily written in both systems, for both sets of mechanics. I don't know, you got any thoughts?
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>>1. IIRC, James Jacobs wrote somewhere that doing two sets of statblocks would be nuts.
Well, yes, but we fans aren't alone, the writers for Paizo are also fans too, why not ask THEM which system they'd be likely to write for or prefer once the rules come out?
I can't truly beleive, unless it is their 100% bread and butter, that if given a choice a freelancer would actually write for a system they didn't like, I mean, what sense does that make from a creative standpoint?
-DM Jeff
I've already informed my players that I plan on skipping 4th edition altogether. The reaction was a collective sigh of relief, which surprised me. I thought that at least one of them would be a little disappointed, but not a single one of them was. They're relieved that they don't have to go out and buy and learn a bunch of new rules and source books and that I'm not going to try messing with a good thing. So there you go.
On the off chance that the new system is the bee's knees, I still wouldn't make a move to switch until the inevitable 4.5 comes out, which it will.
Now, as for writing for 4th edition D&D, I have no reservation to do so if I am solicited for work from WotC. Until then, my focus will be to keep writing 3rd edition or systemless material for whatever publisher wants it. Paizo, preferably. But, I have a good relationship with Goodman Games, and I'd love to contribute to Kobold Quarterly and Green Ronin Publishing at some point the future as well.
To more directly answer the original question, I plan on playing v.3.5 D&D for the next 2-3 years and hope that Paizo will be there to support it. I have several campaigns, adventures, and APs I want to run with the material I've bought (and helped write!) and not had a chance to run yet. I figure it'll take about a year for each one of those campaigns. So, that's kind of a conservative time frame. It could easily take longer to get through it all.
When I'm winding down on that stuff is when I'll seriously check in to the newer version of the game. By that time, I won't be surprised to hear that 5th edition is being announced.
>>1. IIRC, James Jacobs wrote somewhere that doing two sets of statblocks would be nuts.
Well, yes, but we fans aren't alone, the writers for Paizo are also fans too, why not ask THEM which system they'd be likely to write for or prefer once the rules come out?
I can't truly beleive, unless it is their 100% bread and butter, that if given a choice a freelancer would actually write for a system they didn't like, I mean, what sense does that make from a creative standpoint?
-DM Jeff
That's part of the problem. They can't wait and the clocks ticking. They need to have these things planned out way ahead of time so that they can have products out for prime events like Gencon or the christmas season.
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Maybe Paizo could kind of support both for a while and see how the wind is blowing as it were.
Continue to produce the Pathfinder APs using 3.5 at least for the foreseeable future. Once 4E is out and everyone has a chance to play and evaluate it, decide if Pathfinder converts or not.
Meanwhile, assuming Paizo gets an early copy of the rules, put out a GameMastery module under 4E as soon as it is feasible and see how it sells. Since the GameMastery modules are more like independent, almost one-off kinds of things, it would seem like putting out a couple 4E modules would be easier to do.
This way, Paizo would not have to change Pathfinder Adventure Path mid stream but could still get a couple 4E products out to test the water. Given the unfortunate state of affairs WOTC seems to be causing, this might just be the 'best' of both worlds.
Just a thought ...
As a freelancer, I MUST switch if everyone (the publishing community) does. That said, do I as A gamer, WANT to switch? No.
When TSR sold out, or got bought out or whatever, Wizards seemed to rush to the plate with 3.0, which was fine, to some.
I lost a few gamers that were just unwilling to shell out the cash for a new spin on the same game. Then came the capitalistic smack down of 3.5. Sure, it fixed some broken rules, but a good DM had probably already done that "house style". I dont know, it seems like the big $$ is viewed as the most prudent reason to recreate the game, not the outcry of players. But from a buisness standpoint, it's viable. The clothing industry has done it for centuries.....or we'd all be wearing skins.
My own gaming group is split, some hate the idea of swapping out YET AGAIN, others see it as a way to keep from getting stale, burning out. I've been playing some form of D&D for close to 20 years now, and the game has improved, but it's still the same game.
The problem is, the hard core gamers will be on the fence. Some will want to swap, some wont. The question is what will the next generation of gamers do? The chances of young people in our "throw it away" American lifestyle suddenly regressing to the WWII era "save everything, you dont know when you'll get more" mentality is slim. RPG's aren't computers, the shelf life is a little longer, but it seems in this day and age, if you can't toss it and bring out a shiny new box, you'll rot.
What should Paizo do??.... Whatever it takes to survive.
If I have to make the swap to keep freelancing, I will. If Paizo has to make the swap to stay in buisness, you will.
I'll be there to try and sell you my ideas either way.
Whether I lke it (4.0) or not.
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I thought about that too, Moff. My conclusion is this: Paizo won't be able to see if that's doable until they see the 4e. SRD and can decide if compatible adventures can be easily written in both systems, for both sets of mechanics. I don't know, you got any thoughts?
Realistically, what mechanics are actually in an issue of Pathfinder? Really all the mechanics are included in the SRD/PHB/DMG. The most recent issue of Pathfinder had some fun haunts, but they are basically just a fun version of traps (and I find it really hard to believe that 4e won't have some kind of mechanic for traps). Aside from that, there were some fun magic items, a couple of new spells, and around 15 stat blocks. The stat blocks are probably the most significant, but what difference does it make in the adventure if spellcasters use vancian magic or some other form? As I mentioned, stat blocks would most likely need to be written out twice which will take up space (some might argue unnecessarily) but it shouldn't be that complicated to do. 4e is still going to have arcane spell casters, divine spell casters, rogue type characters, fighter type characters, and woodsy type characters. For all the differences, the truth is that a story is still a story. That shouldn't need to be changed that much.
On the other hand, the change in giants from 2nd edition to 3rd edition was pretty dramatic. There may be some things that could be a little difficult to traslate, but from what I've seen that should be few and far between.
EDIT: It doesn't look like the 4e will be an easy conversion like it was from 3.0 to 3.5. For that reason, I feel that "doable" will not necessarily be "easy". It might not even be possible for spells to have the same kind of 'place' in both systems. But what is D&D? "You now find yourself in a kitchen -- the noise you are making has attracted the attention of some diseased rats -- roll initiative." It just feels like for Paizo's purposes the actual mechanics are fairly secondary.