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I am running Savage Tide for a group of players and I have some good players although 2 are causing me alot of difficulty with the Tome of Battle and some different feats from different sources
I originally allowed Core, Complete series, PHB2, Magic Item Compendium, and ToB. These 2 seem to have found the most broken and horrible mix of ToB and other stuff to make them impossible to challenge without killing the non-super-optimized characters in the group.
My solution is that I am going to ban Tome of Battle and all Complete books, or I am going to shut down the campaign. I have one other character that will be caught in this change majorly: A Warlock, which I haven't seen any problems with. It is kind of a shame but Oh Well!
The reason for the Ban instead of me trying to work with it is that I don't have the time to properly tweak every single encounter to make them even close to fun.
Party started at 2nd level, they are 6th now and exploring the Ruins of Tamoachan in The Sea Wyvern's Wake.
How do I do this? I am firm in this decision, but I don't want to come across as a hard-@ss. I was considering allowing some Unearthed Arcana stuff like the Generic Classes, Class Variants, and Core-class Variants.
I need some suggestions on how to get my thoughts across to the group more than any mechanical suggestions and I would appreciate some help from the forums.
Thanks
FH
Have you sat them down and explained the situation? I don't know about Unearthed Arcana and other sources, since I don't have copies myself, but if you want them more in line with the core mechanics, maybe looking for a way to rebuild the characters along similar lines is a good idea. I usually give my players the options to tailor some of the core classes a bit; like swapping out the paladin's mount for a bonus feat or something like that. As long as you monitor what they're exchanging for what, and maybe collect their character sheets for review after a "reworking" session, it shouldn't be a big issue. Hopefully offering them the prospect of just rebuilding their character along similar lines will work, even if your power gamers object. It can't be that fun for the rest of the group if these guys run rough shod over every encounter and hopefully that will be enough reason to convince everyone for a little creative reworking.
The way I've approached this in the past is to take a session and discuss the balance of the party and how it's going to soon be very difficult to challenge them without overwhelming the less-optimized characters. I slanted it so that it was my "fault" and I just didn't have the time to balance every encounter to make the game fun for all the players, but I wanted to give them each the best game I could. There was a little grumbling at first, but even the powergamer gave in, and the rest of the session was tuning the characters (one player had half the party wealth, so it took a while). We also coached some of the newer players on some of the trickier parts of combat and how to turn the concept behind their character into reality, so overall the session had a very positive spin.
The important part is that the players never feel like they're being blamed for "breaking the game", which is likely the first thing that will spring into their minds.
Mechanically, it's a fairly simple matter of letting the players replace their feats and gear, sometimes from the ground up. The best thing is to have a bunch of ideas of how you might rework each character in case they ask for help.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Oi Fakey, that's a doozy. I think ultimately, it's going to be tough to do anything unilaterally - you probably will need to convince these guys that their characters are a problem as you present your solution. Here's what I'd suggest:
1. Pick Apart the Rules. ToB is a tricky beast, you may want to double check and confirm that they are running their characters correctly. What tactics are they using that are problematic? Are they problematic generally or just because of the type of encounters they are currently facing (e.g., a tripping specialist owns low level combat, but has a much harder time at higher levels when opponents get larger and have more (or no) legs.)
2. Take Apart the Problem Tactic. Instead of rebuilding the character from scratch, what about either trading out the feat/ability that is a problem or changing the way it functions. This seems like it would be more enjoyable for the players who would get to keep their characters but not make your life a living hell dealing with them.
3. Punch Them. Nuff said.
It seems like it would be very hard to extract the non-core books from the game this far into the campaign without causing a lot of pain. I would expect that you really need your players to buy into the idea or risk ruffling feathers. I suppose you could try splitting the baby, and in addition to the above, disallow further content from non-core supplements. Just make sure to not hit the players with an xp penalty if they can't take further levels in a non-core class.
Hope that helps.
I am running Savage Tide for a group of players and I have some good players although 2 are causing me alot of difficulty with the Tome of Battle and some different feats from different sources
I originally allowed Core, Complete series, PHB2, Magic Item Compendium, and ToB. These 2 seem to have found the most broken and horrible mix of ToB and other stuff to make them impossible to challenge without killing the non-super-optimized characters in the group.
What exactly is causing the problem?
You could ban the use of these books at the table asking they keep photocopies of the bits relevant to their characters with their character sheets to avoid penalising the warlock player however without knowing what has caused this problem I can only surmise they are making use of books you don't have or are hogging too much of the play and this is frustrating you as you want everyone to have fun not just two of your players.
Hmm, employ anti-magical fields to disrupt the items, make use of mirrors of opposition to create duplicates of themselves to act as longrunning foes, have a villain use a ring of wishes to strip the more troublesome books out of the game after he/she/it is about to be defeated by the pcs and have the ring be possessed by the villain so if they try to reverse whats happened they now have a character under the control of a villain who wants to be ressurected after sending the pc's somewhere where they can't stop him/her/it...
What exactly have they got thats so overwhelming?
Unfortunately, it's much easier to not allow this stuff in the first place than it is to later remove it. Which, of course, is no help at all in this situation.
Two questions:
1) How reasonable are the players in question? If you speak to them quietly and ask them to tone down the characters, would they go with that, or would they throw a tantrum?
2) Do the players own the books they're using, or are they borrowing copies? Further, did any of them buy the books they're using because of this campaign? If the answer to these is "yes", then the players have a reasonable expectation that they'll be allowed to continue.
Suggestions:
Assuming the players are reasonable sorts, but that they have bought their own books for this campaign.
1) Don't wrap up the campaign, and don't ban the books from your game. There's plenty of good material in there (and this will become especially apparent at higher levels when your Fighter needs the feats from PHB2).
2) Speak to the players in question. Explain the situation to them, and ask them to tone down the characters. Point out to them that the game will be more fun for all involved if the characters are toned down some.
3) Working with the players, identify a small number of key issues with the characters. Does one class work with a particular feat too well? Would the player perhaps drop the feat and choose another? Does the character's prestige class cause problems? If so, could the character be rebuilt to use a less favourable route to that class, so as to redress the balance?
And so on. Do try to get the final balance right - you really don't want to have to do this a second time in the campaign. Further, as the campaign progresses, keep an eye on what the players are doing - there may be new combinations coming up that you also need to guide them away from... and again, better to not allow something than to have to take it away again.
Good luck!
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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I, too, would be interested into hearing exactly what the problem is. Also, what level are the characters at currently? I know that, around levels 4-6, characters can seem nigh-indestructible if they've built themselves up well, but that curve slowly starts heading the other way as the creatures with more varied and potent tactics come into the mix.
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We had a player using ToB in our SCAP. The DM and some others in the group came to a consenus that while that book had some cool toys to play with, they overshadowed the other classes particulary the fighter types.
I wouldnt get rid of the Completes since stuff from them is used by various foes in the STAP. I would however lose the ToB, with apoligies to the player or players using this source.
I would also note exactly how the players are using certain feats and other abilities. Many times in the past certain actions taken by the players seemed really powerful only to realized that we had been misinturpreting how those feats and abilites actually work.
Alternativly, you could give your bad guys a flat DM bonus to attack/AC/hp as a quick and dirty buff to make the fights a little more challenging.
I'm actually permitting a player to experimentally 'test drive' a crusader in my STAP. So far, while irritating, it has hardly been a nightmare to deal with. The character can only take so much damage, only has such-and-so save bonuses ... in also helps I'm reasonably familiar with the principles behind the ToB: Bo9Sw material, which basically boils down to ' burn off your round to get one good shot in that does (x) benefit'.
IMO, you would be unduly harsh upon the Warlock. Thier goodies are practically all spell-like abilities, just as subject to provoking AOO from not casting defensively, have crummy HD, a much slower ramping up to thier damage cieling and so on.
I would wager that the ToB is what is causing the problem, especially with two of them. If they have co-operatively built up to 'tag team' I can certainly see that they would pose a significant challenge as the GM - if you must get rid of them, and they won't do so voluntarily...
However, if they are legitimately built, as with any other class they are hardly indestructable. Sicc a pack of advanced rhagodessa on them (before they get anything that grants freedom of movement) that rip them into chunky salsa and have the beasties settle down to chomp contentedly. (This presumes the others are savvy enough to amscray when faced with, oh, 4 12 HD deathbugs rather than try to fight such foes. If the agent of death is, say, an NPC with a thing for conjurations, say an alienist that doesn't like thier looks, it can get even worse. Said alienist can wait in the wings to observe how his pets fare, and provide any necessary 'artillery' to go with it.)
Once rendered into aforementioned salsa, you can then inform them of the sad fact that no further characters will be permitted for the campaign from the ToB.
Or, if you have the time, cobble together a tag team of your own that 'calls them out' ... and have the other players run them if they are able (and willing) to do so.
Mevers (below) also makes the very legitimate point regarding understanding the mechanics behind thier new toys. And many of the posters all point out that it gives the melee guys something to contribute to high level play (besides acting as speedbumps), which are otherwise so often the purview of the spellcasters.
I can see Tome of Battle being difficult to meld into Your game. I've disallowed that book from my own game just as I've disallowed multiple types of magic systems in the game (i.e. no psionics, nothing from Tome of Magic). The additional classes, feats and spells I allow are all from the Book of Exalted Deeds and the 1st four Complete books (Warrior, Divine, Arcane & Adventurer) i.e. nothing from sources I don't own and/or don't approve of. (I also did this to limit how many books I'd have to haul to each session.)
Furthermore, You don't have to ban the books entirely. You could say disallow Tactical Feats or Divine Feats or maybe allow only the core classes from the splat books. i.e. No more non-core prestige classes save for ones You've custom designed for the setting. You could also beef up the lagging characters by allowing them to acquire magic items duplicating some of the effects of the ToB stuff.
Also, if they are being poor sports and ruining the game for others by being glory hounds or showboating, then don't give them any bonus XP for good teamwork. If they endanger the party as a whole thru their actions, they may even suffer XP or alignment penalties. (See my post in the Stupid PC Moments thread, that same player is the one who wanted to bring ToB material into my game if that tells You anything.)
Still, I suspect most of the problems You are seeing are from Tome of Battle, though I'd like to know more about the problem before offering any concrete advice...
This seems to be a fairly common problem, which leads me to be careful about what I allow. Some of the suggestions above about doing a character redesign sound like they might work, depending on the personalities involved. Maybe you could sell it by using PHB2 rules on "retraining" or something.
I think there's a lot of interesting and potentially cool stuff in the sourcebooks, but there's so much of it that not all the possible combinations have been playtested. What I try to do to keep campaigns manageable is keep about 80% of the stuff (spells, feats, etc.) core and allow people to draw a small amount from non-core. This allows for flavor without a huge influx of game-breaking cheese, and allows for experimentation at a level that can easily be kept under control or cut back without just killing off out of control characters. There's actually quite a bit in the complete books that is reasonably balanced--I think the warlock fits this bill (though I don't like the warmage class at all).
I don't own Tome of Battle, but having thumbed through it a couple of times, I can say that it seems like it might have a lot of potential for the dedicated power gamer.
The big thing that you need to do, I think, is not to play "core only", but to keep an eye on what your players want to do. If it seems like it may be problematic, allow it on an experimental basis only, with an understanding that the material in question may be expunged from the campaign if it proves to be a problem. Then the player can't complain if you ask him to retire or alter his character. If they can't handle the idea that the game requires balance between PCs, they shouldn't be playing, anyway. You don't have to blame them for exploiting the rules to their fullest--most hardcore gamers are powergamers at heart, at least to some extent. You just have to appeal to their sense of fairness and shared fun to get them to concede to some modifications.
I too would very much like to hear exactly what is causing the problem. ToB does give more power to melee characters, and I think it really hits it's peak around level 4 - 6, but then they usually have to give up a full attack for their strikes and what not.
Yes, ToB is more powerful than most of the melee classes (although over on the WotC boards, there is an analysis that shows a Raging Barbarian generally does more straight damage than a Warblade), but that is the point. Compared to mid - high level spell casters, the Core melee classes suck. ToB just lets melee keep up for a bit longer.
If you are already at level 6, I would actually reccomend just waiting it out. In a few more levels powerful melee options will be the least of your worries as you have to deal with raw power of mid - high level spells. And when you get to high levels, you will actually be glad for the ToB classes, as it will allow the melee classes to still contribute.
Of course, make sure they are interpreting the rules correctly. What is it exactly that they are doing that is so broken? There is every chacne (especially so with a new system), that they are not using the mehanics properly.
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The Main problems-
The swordsage/rogue has a stance that allows him to use sneak attack damage almost every round and provides everyone on the same creature to be considered flanking the creature. Then he uses a manuever to do 2-3 extra dice of damage and that usually gives bonuses to hit(+4). He is a whispergnome using 2-daggers and he hits as much if not more than the Barb/crusader (we'll get to him later) and doing as much or more damage as a power attacking Barb with a greatsword, He is usually tossing 8d6 on the table on top of the 1d3 the daggers do.
The Barb/crusader has a stance that makes everyone attack him or take a -4 to attacks. Then he hits creatures and forces them to not move with another strike. Both he and the Swordsage have manuevers that bypass DR and Hardness. I had the party separated by a collapsed log wall trap and the 2 of them used these manuevers to literally punch(with fists) through the 10' thick wall of logs that separated them. Examining the rules showed them to be right in this instance and with some quick math I figured their average damage, the amount of logs in the pile and various other algebraic equations to figure how long it would take them to meet and it took a couple hours for them to "kung-fu" their way out. I even had collapses due to instability, but between DR(armor crystal), a delayed damage pool, and good saves that was a minor inconvenience.
I have 5 players, the cleric missed last nights game, so 4-6th level PC took on a CR8 "hybrid"vampire with max hit points(and his 4 bat swarms) and he never landed a blow, was killed in 3 rounds and was joked about by the 2. I tire of putting a bunch of effort into encounters that always seem to end this way unless I run wave after wave of attacker with no break in combat, combining 3-4 encounters together.
I love Savage Tide but this is ruining the experience for me.
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Also I am familiar with the ToB mechanics and manuevers, and they are using them right. The rules are just ridiculous when you couple them with a few choice items, the right feats from other sources and good class combos.
My party doesn't even have tactics. They walk into a room and kill without any thoughts of tactics, besides the 2 ToB players sticking together to overlap the benefits each provides.
That lack of tactics, with intelligent bad guys or just plain malevolent ones will eat (literally) those two characters if not the entire party.
Thier maneuvers amount to naught when grappled, ability damage and area effects (from various sources) can rain on thier parade ... and the STAP certainly has plenty of bad guys that simply just don't fight fair at all.
The thing you might try is to "replay" that encounter, only have them make up more 'vanilla' characters and see how a similar, 'core' built character group fairs against the same bad guy. If the result more or less is the same, it may not be the ToB that is the problem...
I am surprised your vampire faired so poorly against them - but a CR 8 against 5 6th level characters is hardly a truly serious encounter for them. (At best, 30-40% 'resource expenditure', probably lower, especially as the only encounter for that day/night of game time.)
You have mentioned the real trick with a large and formidable group - back to back encounters are a very real, very serious possbility in the STAP, in many areas of the entire arc. Stick it to 'em! (This will also let the warlock shine more as well.) And of course 'quick fix' adjustments are easy to apply to the baddies too, especially unusual ones (aberrations, undead, outsiders and whatnot), so tack on an insight bonus to attack for thier highest mental ability bonus. Use elite arrays to tap the meanness up, maximize hp to buy your baddies some breathing room, don't adjust the CR for xp award upwards unless he really challenges them. If anything, if your CR 8 did nothing more than tie them up for 3 rounds, I'd probably drop the xp awarded to a CR 4 instead.
Good luck!
House Rule #1: anything that unbalances the game or reduces the fun of other players will result in your character meeting the bouncers*, a boil the size of a small troll on his/her nose**, salt in their oatmeal***, or some other balancing factor****.
This replaces the lines 'a blue dragon teleports onto your head' or 'because I am the DM that's why' lines from my pre AD&D days.
*two half-dragon (red) trolls with rings of acid resistance and as many barbarian levels as needed.
**Trolls tend to get attacked by city watch and other upstanding citizens. With flame. Or acid. Or flaming acid.
***a player actually statted this up for me once, as an ooze.
****usually a cursed item (that counters the broken mechanic) if I am nice or a fudged save(s) if I am not. (The latter is a good option for reducing multiple players if you mind control A to take out B.)
Of course this is a pre-standing rule so it may not help you now that your game is underway. Knowing this rule and more importantly the reason behind it has made it non-necessary even though I run a lot of one-shots (for prizes at my FLGS). As others have suggested talking to the players in question should be enough.
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That lack of tactics, with intelligent bad guys or just plain malevolent ones will eat (literally) those two characters if not the entire party.
Thier maneuvers amount to naught when grappled, ability damage and area effects (from various sources) can rain on thier parade ... and the STAP certainly has plenty of bad guys that simply just don't fight fair at all.
I am surprised your vampire faired so poorly against them - but a CR 8 against 5 6th level characters is hardly a truly serious encounter for them. (At best, 30-40% 'resource expenditure', probably lower, especially as the only encounter for that day/night of game time.)
You have mentioned the real trick with a large and formidable group - back to back encounters are a very real, very serious possbility in the STAP, in many areas of the entire arc. Stick it to 'em! (This will also let the warlock shine more as well.) And of course 'quick fix' adjustments are easy to apply to the baddies too, especially unusual ones (aberrations, undead, outsiders and whatnot), so tack on an insight bonus to attack for thier highest mental ability bonus. Use elite arrays to tap the meanness up, maximize hp to buy your baddies some breathing room, don't adjust the CR for xp award upwards unless he really challenges them. If anything, if your CR 8 did nothing more than tie them up for 3 rounds, I'd probably drop the xp awarded to a CR 4 instead.
Good luck!
Ability damage is useless, They have a rod and an orb to cover that. They bought them after the Savage creature run-in.
I have a druid/monk who grapples well along with the Barb who is nigh unstoppable with a grapple, so grapple only works occasionally and against only the swordsage (whose touch ac is REALLY high).Barbarian/Crusader and Rogue/Swordsage rarely take much damage from AoE stuff by their nature, and sure I could easily kill the un-optimized members of the group but I don't really need to challenge them.
I was missing a member for the Vampire encounter so it was 4 6th level PCs, and I thought A CR8 vs a Party level of 6 would be difficult, but it didn't use ANY resources of the party. All maneuvers recover after the battle and that is all they used besides one spell from the druid- Menacing Tentacles.
This sucks.
Fake Healer : All hope is not lost. Rezdave's (and others) points about what is going to make the Savage Tide fun to run (versus merely fun to play for the players) is the big issue at hand. If the game is not fun to run, a GM will (generally) quickly lose heart and the screen monkey leaves or bows out of the running.
Frankly, barring an out-right banning on your end, I agree with Rezdave's point - be prepared to lose the two powergamered characters if they cannot abide by a change of 'reality'. If they won't budge and won't leave, you are down to Plan C - which I advise discussing with the non-powergamers at the table to see if they are alright with Plan C. If they are not, sheer peer pressure and 'get lost' will be required.
Plan C, I'd deliberately target thier characters for annihilation. Since it seems they are about to hit either Tamoachoan or the Isle of Dread itself, there are plenty of opportunities to do so. Hideous plant beasties, deathbugs (advanced and templated, that drag off thier new meat snacks once they are reduced to twitchy piles of lunch), a very hostile adventuring party that just decides they don't like thier looks [ideally, they are as posted above, mirrors of your PCs that 'call them out'. If they remotely RP the archetypes of thier classes right, they're pretty much obligated to answer in the affirmative.]...
To use your vampire - did they permadeath it ? (Doubtful unless they found its coffin.) That vampire's Boss is likely to sniff around and seek to horrifically dispatch those who mocked his minion at the last moment. Stealthy assassination, seductive vampire babes (or good old fashioned energy draining succubi), and sheer brute force ambushes by coordinated high-bonus melee and ranged weapon attackers [with silenced belts or other accoutrements] can all easily dispatch them. Especially if they are prone to (as most PCs are in the city) shopping alone. Even better, you can consider drafting the other players into running the hostiles - to give them something to do while the gloryhounds get butchered. Heck, if you have MM 5, use those 2 really nasty statted-up vamps in the back on them.
Just because your party is 6th level doesn't mean they can't cheese off much higher level antagonists. And mocking high-end minions is a pretty good way to attract very unwanted attention...
Having found out about this, the exact details of Plan C can vary wildly. Future foes who target the two melee gurus will *heavily* emphasize mobility and ranged firepower. And the terrain of the jungles and mountains they will find themselves in does not at all favor most melee fighters when the foes are above and overhead.
In short, many of the bad guys in the STAP are able and willing to butcher two melee guys, even twinkied ones. Sheer numbers can do it, and many of them will flank and aid other to ensure attacks get through.
Presuming they pretty much trounce thier way to the Isle of Dread, instead of using one measly T-rex at the beach landing - use two, a mated pair let's say. T-rexs are quite capable of hunting in pairs or packs ... and I doubt thier AC is so high as to easily thwart such a foe with any reliability. When a 'rex gets a meal, it will go off and digest, especially if the other food nearby is not as enticing as the snacks that walked up to it.
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Your suggestions are great and would work well but I don't want to spend a week tweaking and making killer encounters, I just don't have the time or energy for that. Doubling the T-rexs(or adding a ton of mooks) gives extra XP which levels the party faster and causes them to be higher level(and compounding the problem) than the adventures making me have to devote a ton of time tweaking the encounters without upping the CRs of them.
I realize that it is easy to use whatever means possible to destroy the 2 power-gamers' PCs, I am the DM, Hell I could just have a Hellfire Wyrm grab the 2, fly off and eat them on a nearby island if I wanted but I don't DM like that. I certainly don't want to punish them for a mistake that was ultimately mine by allowing certain books.
My whole issue boils down to this:
I ran Savage Tide to try to cut down prep-time and because the idea is way cool. Premade 1-20 with only a few changes for coolness was my goal.
Now I am spending a huge amount of time trying to change the encounters without adding to the problem only to find that everything I am doing is futile and getting walked through. I spent 2 hours on the Vampire encounter and it was over in 3 rounds. Waste of time for me. Extra XP for them.
I just need suggestions on how to remove the books from the game without causing a revolt. This is a decent group and I would hate to lose anyone over hard-feelings. I plan on keeping Core + PHB2, MIC, and some Variant stuff from Unearthed Arcana, but I need to cut out the "Complete" books and the Tome of Battle.
I just wanna know the best way to do that and I have already gotten a few suggestions that I will try, but I would like more.
FH
I just need suggestions on how to remove the books from the game without causing a revolt. This is a decent group and I would hate to lose anyone over hard-feelings. I plan on keeping Core + PHB2, MIC, and some Variant stuff from Unearthed Arcana, but I need to cut out the "Complete" books and the Tome of Battle.I just wanna know the best way to do that and I have already gotten a few suggestions that I will try, but I would like more.
FH
I know the Tome of Battle things are giving you fits, but are there specific issues with the "complete" books, or is it the combination of Complete books and the Tome of Battle.
The Savage Tide does have some elements from the "complete" series, but not from the Tome of Battle. I know the Paizo guys have mentioned that the "capstone system" books (Psionics, Incarnum, Tome of Battle, Tome of Magic) are harder to fit in than the Complete stuff, for example.
Maybe just avoiding the "capstone systems" might help, since as far as I can tell these resources aren't used in the adventure path.
Some other people have mentioned the retraining rules in PH II, and you may want to ask your players if they are willing to do this, and another thing that might ease the transition might be to allow the PCs to take some of the maneuvers as feats, but not actually play martial adepts (the martial training feat if I remember correctly). So they can still use some of the Tome of Battle abilities, but at most they can only pick up three manuevers their whole career.
Sorry FH, thanks for the clarification.
I've only found 2 ways that really work for D&D when it is found in hindsight that something just isn't working out.
#1: GM Fiat, pretty harsh, but fairly often the only thing that works, especially when #2 doesn't seem to be working.
#2: Group discussion, preferably by advanced discussion (e-mail is great for this stuff) prior to play. Let them know the same things you've told us - at least in principle if not the fine details - and get the group's feedback.
I do wish you wouldn't have to smoosh the Warlock though, but *shrugs* it's your game and your group, so by all means do what you must.
Might I suggest sticking (besides the BoVD) to the books that the STAP itself uses ?
Might I suggest sticking (besides the BoVD) to the books that the STAP itself uses ?
This is what I was sort of trying to say, but failed miserably since I'm too fond of typing long tracts that could be summarized much more effectively than I am generally capable of . . . or something like that.
Seems this topic comes up a lot. I've posted my 'solutions' on other 'my players are overpowered' type threads. The catch is my solutions generally fall into the category of "give the monsters what the PCs have". - i.e. same point buy, repicked feats and repicked spells, extra hps if the players get extra hps etc. etc.
You present an interesting issue with this - your not willing, because of time issues, to prep the monsters to deal with the plethora of books and powers that the players have access to.
Thinking about it I think I might have a slightly long term solution that may address this to some extent anyway. Knock the players levels up in terms of XP. Basically assign them level adjustments. The net effect is they go up levels slower and the opposition just gets that much harder. Somewhere in there is a balanced game its simply a matter of finding it.
I don't allow ToB but there are posters here that I respect that do and they claim that run properly its not really that overwhelming. Assuming that to be true then lets just adjust the game to be a little more dangerous by slowing their advancement. That way they get to keep their nifty munchkins and you don't have to adjust the AP.
So how much should you add to their level? Well I figure your the ultimate authority on that but I'll give my gut feeling.
I Figure that a good point buy is at least a +1 level adjustment - I doubt your players equal a 25 point buy so knock up by +1 here - if their point buy averages 36 or more make this +2.
Access to a lot of books is again at least a +1 level adjustment.
Finally I'd throw in another +1 just to hurry things along - call it the 'My players are munchkins!' adjustment. You can always take this one back if +3 level adjustment proves to much.
Now all you have to do is wait for things to slide back to the point where this game is tough again, and it will slide back, oh it will...mwhaaa ha ha ha....
Contributor
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I'm going to take a totally differnt tack on this.
Why don't you allow the other players the opportunity to retrofit their characters, and allow the min-maxers to help them. Then you can throw really challenging stuff at them and the other players won't die.
That way, you aren't punishing your players for being good strategists.
In most of our games, we play hardball. Don't get me wrong, we role-play well, but neither myself nor the other DM pull any punches. Usually the kind of problem you are having would be somewhat self-correcting in our games, because the weaker characters would die and the players would make their next characters better (with advice and help from the other players). Mind you, we collaborate on character design and advancement all the time regardless.
I realize that this is not a style of play for everybody, but it sounds like it is for two of your players. Instead of asking them to play less cleverly, they'll be happier if you ask them to share their cleverness with everyone else.
At least, that's how I would feel.
Hmm, employ anti-magical fields to disrupt the items, make use of mirrors of opposition to create duplicates of themselves to act as longrunning foes, have a villain use a ring of wishes to strip the more troublesome books out of the game after he/she/it is about to be defeated by the pcs and have the ring be possessed by the villain so if they try to reverse whats happened they now have a character under the control of a villain who wants to be ressurected after sending the pc's somewhere where they can't stop him/her/it...
The problem here is the OP has made it clear that there is no time to modify the adventure at all. So no adding things - the solution has to with the players because the campaign is sticking to the material as written.
I, too, would be interested into hearing exactly what the problem is. Also, what level are the characters at currently? I know that, around levels 4-6, characters can seem nigh-indestructible if they've built themselves up well, but that curve slowly starts heading the other way as the creatures with more varied and potent tactics come into the mix.
Fatespinner hits a good point with this. I found that around 6th-8th level my players really became very potent. Nearly unstoppable. Right at this stage it seems that min maxing kind of hits some sort of optimum. The characters are just laying down phenomenal smack down and the kinds of enemies at this stage just can't take the heat and they usually don't really have anything to help them. They tend to just have lots of hps but min-maxed characters can do 40pts of damage per hit.
However I have found that this situation just does not continue as the characters get up a few more levels. As the challenges get into CR 12 stuff the monsters have amazing abilities of their own - the players start having to make saves right left and centre and failed save rolls are dramatic. They wander around confused, they end up stunned they take d6 and d8s worth of ability damage ... and sometimes they just die right there. Essentially the bad guys stop relying so much on just having hps and start having offensive abilities that don't just rely on out damaging the PCs but instead hit them where it hurts , their saving throws. They gain better defensive abilities as well. Things like miss chances etc.
Yes, ToB is more powerful than most of the melee classes (although over on the WotC boards, there is an analysis that shows a Raging Barbarian generally does more straight damage than a Warblade), but that is the point. Compared to mid - high level spell casters, the Core melee classes suck. ToB just lets melee keep up for a bit longer.If you are already at level 6, I would actually reccomend just waiting it out. In a few more levels powerful melee options will be the least of your worries as you have to deal with raw power of mid - high level spells. And when you get to high levels, you will actually be glad for the ToB classes, as it will allow the melee classes to still contribute.
I disagree. My experience at the table is that the mages are great but not really more powerful then the melee characters in general. I think the mages might well be able to kill the rest of the party but thats not what the game is about. There are tons of things that nerf casters - basic SR being the most common. Sure mages can get around SR - they just have to make sure not to pick any one of 2/3rds of their spells - usually the better ones to boot. As the levels go up the caster often finds that the spell he just cast either does not work or that the bad guy simply counters it with an ability of his own.
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I'm going to take a totally differnt tack on this.
Why don't you allow the other players the opportunity to retrofit their characters, and allow the min-maxers to help them. Then you can throw really challenging stuff at them and the other players won't die.
That way, you aren't punishing your players for being good strategists.
In most of our games, we play hardball. Don't get me wrong, we role-play well, but neither myself nor the other DM pull any punches. Usually the kind of problem you are having would be somewhat self-correcting in our games, because the weaker characters would die and the players would make their next characters better (with advice and help from the other players). Mind you, we collaborate on character design and advancement all the time regardless.
I realize that this is not a style of play for everybody, but it sounds like it is for two of your players. Instead of asking them to play less cleverly, they'll be happier if you ask them to share their cleverness with everyone else.
At least, that's how I would feel.
My players have almost no strategy, and I do not nerf rolls or pull punches. They are not playing cleverly, they like to read the CharOp threads over at WOTC and get useful "ideas" of how to design superpowerful PCs.
I truly believe that the 2 PCs could have destroyed the CR8 Altered Vamp and the 4 bat swarms he had without any real trouble.They have no real tactics besides "engage enemy and kill".
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Maybe I will leave the "Complete" books alone for now and just ban ToB, with a statement that "we will see how that works" to let them know that there may be more bans if cheese starts being shoveled on the game.
I had planned on just allowing them to trade items that are obselete to their new PCs for similarly priced items and allow them to rebuild with no penalties or restrictions(within the new book guidelines) besides that they should still try to fit the same roles.
What else should I do to smooth the rebuild part?
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Fakey...
in the end, you are the DM. If the decisions you made at the beginning of the campaign are making it waaaay more work (and less fun, even the DM is supposed to be having fun), then you just need to sit them down and give it to them straight. "These things are a real problem and have to go or I'll be starting up a new campaign next week - core rules only. Now... we can negotiate a bit on what non-core stuff you can use to refit your characters, or... you can make new ones."
You're allowed to say "This isn't any fun for me guys." You're not their slave.
"Give us an adventure, Monkey Boy! Or... face a whipping!"
I know you don't want to ruffle feathers, but you know... it sounds like yours already are.
Anyway... anyone will tell you that I'm a hardarse, so take all this with a grain of salt. Still... I've had to do something similar on occasion, and I still have a group.
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Maybe I will leave the "Complete" books alone for now and just ban ToB, with a statement that "we will see how that works" to let them know that there may be more bans if cheese starts being shoveled on the game.
I had planned on just allowing them to trade items that are obselete to their new PCs for similarly priced items and allow them to rebuild with no penalties or restrictions(within the new book guidelines) besides that they should still try to fit the same roles.
What else should I do to smooth the rebuild part?
To do the rebuild, maybe they could recreate their same characters in a magic juncture/place of power with the PHB II rebuild rules...just tell them "rescramble your characters, ONLY such and such books,...sorry but ToB is (sniff) done."
Sorry my suggestions previously were out in left field; I'm a mod freak and I couldn't help but try to mod the game out if I was running it. If I could actually finish the AP, the final battle would be a massive pirate fleet battle in a whirlpool vortex with an Empire State building in the middle, and Demogorgon on it like King Kong, with Celeste in his hand like Fay Wray, and the pc's would be in a biplane dogfight with k'zinti in fokkers with machineguns and everything.Unless I came up with something really weird.
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Ah! This situation calls for a DM's Screen, where you may totally fake the die rolls, and punish with impunity. Seriously, even in close combat you can build the picture for you players so that the more powerful PCs get a balanced fight without killing your underpowered PCs; by fudging the numbers--DM prerogative--you can also make sure Gamers situations (18 STR barbarian can't budge the door, but the 7 STR thief rips it from the hinges, all due to the whims of a die) never, ever occur.
with Celeste in his hand like Fay Wray, and the pc's would be in a biplane dogfight with k'zinti in fokkers with machineguns and everything.
Unless I came up with something really weird.
Heathy, now I know you are prone to wild ideas . . . I mean, just imagine how ridiculous a thought that is . . . Demogorgon with hands . . . bah . . .
My players have almost no strategy, and I do not nerf rolls or pull punches. They are not playing cleverly, they like to read the CharOp threads over at WOTC and get useful "ideas" of how to design superpowerful PCs.
I truly believe that the 2 PCs could have destroyed the CR8 Altered Vamp and the 4 bat swarms he had without any real trouble.
They have no real tactics besides "engage enemy and kill".
So don't engage. If you have enemies with any kind of intelligence, they will employ tactics that don't allow the PCs to use their strongest abilities. A simple pit or net trap could give your monsters 1-3 rounds of free hits while the PCs scramble to get free. A rust monster can kill any problem items, as can simply losing them at sea during a battle. Sundering is an often overlooked option.
I generally think banning books is a weak option-- the DM needs to be able to outsmart his players, not nerf them.
The game is a system of controlled elements with dice as a semi-randomizer. It is quite possible, and easy, to be exceptionally good at one or two things, but impossible to be powerful at everything. Most classes have at least one weak save; attack that from time to time. If you run a videogame-style campaign, videogame-style characters will always win the day.
A vampire with any kind of experience should never engage in a solo attack from the front unless assured that there will be no effective resistance. They're just too smart for that. Consider what a monster would do if *it* planned on winning, and then have it *do just that*. Run your encounters like the bad guys are out for a TPK, just like the PCs are-- it's your job to keep things fair, not to guarantee PC survival. A CR 15 demon against a 4th level party isn't fair, but an EL 8 that exclusively uses hit-and-run tactics under cover of night certainly is. Darkvision, if they even have it, only extends 60 feet for *most* races.
I generally think banning books is a weak option-- the DM needs to be able to outsmart his players, not nerf them.
To be fair, some books, especially the "capstone systems," don't fit every game. I'm pretty open with what I allow in my campaigns, but I don't want to mess with Incarnum or Legacy Weapons, even though I "get" the systems more or less. They just to fit with what I want to do in my campaign. So I don't fault anyone for having a book just not work for them.
And I think setting up traps and the like and prestaging the "encounter zones" kind of goes against what FH was saying about not wanting to do too much prep work, which I can understand.
If some of your players are making CharOp monsters, and the others aren't, THAT is the root of the problem. Its not races, or classes, or feats, or skill tricks, or soulmelds, or stances. Its attitude and play style, which have nothing to do with the character sheet. Expect them both to go Natural Spell Druids if you restrict them to core rules, and they'll be almost as bad.
Seriously, Ive had this problem. Powergamers, true powergamers, just don't mix well with non-powergamers. Its not that powergaming is bad, but its just that its nearly impossible to balance tastes if the tastes are too far apart on the spectrum.
My group pool is mostly optimizers, people who make strong but reasonable characters. But in that pool of players (about 10 people) there are some who are extremely character driven, and some who are extremely not. Those polar opposites just don't work well together, so I don't put them together in games I run.
In D&D, opposites don't attract.
You will probably have to either loose some of your players, or convince them to alter their playstyle's (probably a difficult feat at best). That's my evaluation, but hey, its not professional, and I don't have much to go on, cause I'm not in your shoes. :)
After thinking about this some more (both from a player and DM point of view), I reckon the best option is to sit down with your players and talk about the problems you are having.
When I started running the SCAP, it was my first campaign EVER, and I was WAY too lenient on stat generation, so it got to the point were they were running through Drakthar's Way like it wasn't even an issue. So, I sat them down, and said, "Sorry, you guys are too powerful, I'm starting again, and here are the new character creation rules."
I suggest doing something similar. Sit them down and tell them that their characters are too powerful, and it is taking you too much to challenge them. Then I would give them a few different options,
1. Remake their characters using only the allowed books (whatever you decide)
2. Keep their current characters, but tell them you are going to assign an LA (I would suggest starting with 2, and going from there) to their characters, or
3. Build completely new characters, (again using only whatever books you decide).
As a self confessed Power Gamer, I would jump at the opportunity number 2 provides. I would push it to it's limit to see exactly how much of LA the DM had to give me to even me out with the rest of the characters. But perhaps that is just me.
Whatever you do, talk to your players. Don't just say, these are the new rules, lump it or leave it, but tell them why you are having problems. If they are any sort of player, they will do everything they can to help the DM, other wise they are not the sort of players you really want at your table anyway.
I cross posted with the Black Bard, and he does talk some sense. It is entirely possible the real issue is not ToB and the completes, so much as conflicting play styles. You really need to examine your group and see which one it is.
If the problem is that the two guys with the ToB stuff are your power gamers, restricting the material will not make much difference at all, they'll just end up playing Druids and Clerics and stomp all over you campaign anyway (there is a reason they call it CODzilla).
About the only option you have is to talk to them and ask them to tone it down. If I was in that situation, I would find that very hard to do, so maybe suggest they take "unoptimal" classes that they twink the living daylights out of to bring them up to par with the rest of the group.
Maybe they play Monk's and Bards, and Mystic Theurges, (or any dual caster PrC).
I'd cut the Magic Item Compendium, too, for the most part. A lot of that stuff seems broken (and IMO, waaaaay too Diablo-esque).
I think the book is actually pretty balanced. The magic items I have serous problems with all come from the DMG. I feel a big part of this is that the Magic Item Compendium was done a lot later then the DMG and there was a better understanding of how to design magic items when it was put out.
That said if your going to include the MIC I'd cut all magic items from all other sources except MIC and the DMG. The complete books in particular are loaded with badly worded magic items that tend to be either woefully underpowered or horribly overpowered. Ectoplasmic skin, from Expanded Psionics is an example of a busted item. Does not say its armour so now the monk can wear it and still get all his cool abilities. Its in the MIC as well but there its clearly labeled as light armour. No using it if you can't wear armour.
I see two problems here:
1. A CR8 creature that gets mowed through that effortlessly is not a CR8 "encounter." Party expended 0 effort, receives CR1 xp.
2. The party's abilities do not exist in a vacuum. They learned them somewhere, so opponents might have access to similar sources. I'm betting a Valkyrie flanked by two Reth Dekala as a replacement encounter would prove challenging enough to warrant them full xp.
Fight fire with fire. Give villans access to "The Book of Abusive Spells" (Spell Compendium). An NPC who lays Shadow Spray on low Fort savers gets instant attention.
Furthermore, your parties are versed in...well, probably everything. Think around the problem. Mix and max creature abilities. Most low level guardians exist as party fodder, which is fine. That's simply their role in the universe. The main villain however, well, he got there because he mowed through the previous fodder! How did he do it? Maybe he has abilities not documented in a book. Perfectly average rogue who by some freak of magic is grapple immune; he's just too slippery. I wouldn't give more than one "Surprise suckers!" per villain though.
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Fakey, something springs to mind which maybe could have an effect, and it is one of your house rules - no xp penalties for multiclassing outside your racial preferred class (and maybe outside classes where multiclassing is banned - druid/monk?). While that seems like a funny and vaguely pointless rule a lot of the time, you might be getting some of the problems arising from this (though if the PCs are human, maybe not). Are you house rules, more generally, making this easier?
Personally, on a more general note, I suggest you do one of two things:
(1) grin and bear it, and go with the flow, if (presumably) the players are enjoying it - that is the main reason for playing, and happy players are what a DM is trying to achieve;
(2) halt the campaign and do something else if you, the DM, are really having a bad time. I think that telling the players that their PCs are too good after the fact will annoy them a bit, especially if they are enjoying themselves with these character, so a retrospective ban in the same campaign won't really work. I have called off campaigns I wasn't enjoying - give them something else fun to do and they should be OK.
A possible third option is just to say "Your characters are too powerful, the ToB is broken, create new characters of the same level and equipment value" and have done with it. The one thing I don't think you will be able to do is delete little chunks here and there, or the problem will probably get worse rather than better.
Fake Healer, I think one of the problem is the item goodies that you are giving them. Crystal armor? Some orb and rod that they bought? All pre 6th level?
Since their saves shouldn't be too high why not have a trap that pulses Mordenkainen's Disjunction on your two cheese monsters? Sure you'll still have to deal with the maneuvers, but, that's what range is for. And if they have a pretty good attack bonus a -4 shouldn't be too bad especially after the MD trap. Oh yeah and if the crystal armor for some reason is not magical in nature, then Shout ought to do just as nicely.
Also, when you had that log trap you should have had things ambushing them right after the logs fell. Kind of hard to attack a bunch of logs when there is something trying to hit you.
And as for the vampire, why didn't you have the bat swarms attack with the vampire waiting in the wings? And didn't the vamp have charm person? Heck if you HAVE to attack the barbarian why not with something that takes a saving throw that guy doesn't have a chance in heck to make. Then the party will have to deal with one of their cheese monsters.
And I think setting up traps and the like and prestaging the "encounter zones" kind of goes against what FH was saying about not wanting to do too much prep work, which I can understand.
This is one of the main reasons I don't use pre-fab stuff very often-- if you don't tailor the game to match the players, you get burned.
Waaaaaay back in 2nd edition, I had a fighter who had gone with the archery kit from a Complete book. He was firing 5 arrows a round at maybe third level. It was brutal. He mowed down a wyvern before it even managed to reach them.
So, I changed my tactics: ettercaps and giant spiders proved more of a threat to that party than almost anything before, because they were trapped in a web when attacked. It wasn't a TPK situation, but it scared them because all of a sudden their best weapons were useless.
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Fake Healer, I think one of the problem is the item goodies that you are giving them. Crystal armor? Some orb and rod that they bought? All pre 6th level?
Since their saves shouldn't be too high why not have a trap that pulses Mordenkainen's Disjunction on your two cheese monsters? Sure you'll still have to deal with the maneuvers, but, that's what range is for. And if they have a pretty good attack bonus a -4 shouldn't be too bad especially after the MD trap. Oh yeah and if the crystal armor for some reason is not magical in nature, then Shout ought to do just as nicely.
Also, when you had that log trap you should have had things ambushing them right after the logs fell. Kind of hard to attack a bunch of logs when there is something trying to hit you.
And as for the vampire, why didn't you have the bat swarms attack with the vampire waiting in the wings? And didn't the vamp have charm person? Heck if you HAVE to attack the barbarian why not with something that takes a saving throw that guy doesn't have a chance in heck to make. Then the party will have to deal with one of their cheese monsters.
Magic items aren't the problem. Crystal Armor? They don't have crystal armor, there is an armor crystal that provides a small amount of DR daily which affixes to armor.
The Vamp appeared after the party removed 2 items from a corpse which held the corpse(the Vamp) in stasis, during the surprise round he called down the swarms, and moved away from the party. He was an altered Vamp but his special attacks all failed in the next round, as did a shatter spell afterwards and special attacks. He fell on the 3rd round when he would've fleed to recoup when the Barb/Crusader hit him with an attack that doesn't allow the opponent to flee.I think I know how I need to proceed, Thanks for all the help and suggestions on how to remove the book/books from the game guys, it is much appreciated.
FH
I'd cut the Magic Item Compendium, too, for the most part. A lot of that stuff seems broken (and IMO, waaaaay too Diablo-esque).I think the book is actually pretty balanced. The magic items I have serous problems with all come from the DMG. I feel a big part of this is that the Magic Item Compendium was done a lot later then the DMG and there was a better understanding of how to design magic items when it was put out.
That said if your going to include the MIC I'd cut all magic items from all other sources except MIC and the DMG. The complete books in particular are loaded with badly worded magic items that tend to be either woefully underpowered or horribly overpowered. Ectoplasmic skin, from Expanded Psionics is an example of a busted item. Does not say its armour so now the monk can wear it and still get all his cool abilities. Its in the MIC as well but there its clearly labeled as light armour. No using it if you can't wear armour.
Fortunately, the MIC and even the SC (to a lesser degree than the former) went a long way to addressing balancing issues for the many new items introduced into the game over the past few years. Given the armor check and max DEX penalties for ectoplasmic armor, as an example, makes it pretty unappealing, as an example.
What I've seen are the 'inspired genius' upgrades of the 'new standard items' in the MIC that take an otherwise reasonable item that one or more players homebrews up into an 'always on' item. Examples of this are taking the Talisman of Undying Fortitude and upgrading it to 'always on' for a mere base market price of 64,000 gp. Or the wraithstrike item that gets similarly upgraded for a similarly too-low market value, worn by the cocky frenzied berserker...
This is a process that has to be nipped in the bud pretty early on in order to bring the item's market value in line with what it would be. (That's the nice thing about the DMG, it is pretty clear that the GM is fully entitled to adjust the market price of any magic item.)
Back to the OP and topic: Fake Healer, my best recommendation remains to skim through the AP and note the books used by the Paizonians themselves (which are all duly annotated throughout the magazines), nip off the BoVD (since the characters are supposedly heroic types) and see what is left. Besides the MMs, all that should remain are the PHB, DMG, and a few of the Complete books, including Complete Arcane. I'd use the revised item and spell descriptions in the MIC and SC, as I've seen the "w00t"s change to "meh"s pretty fast when comparing an 'original' write-up to the 'errata' write-up in the latter two books. With that information, you can basically tell your crusader/swordsage players that they will have access to everything the writers used (excepting the BoVD). Do note that Stormwrack was used by the way, although not so extensively that I would consider it 'required' in any fashion.
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Well the way I see it is you have a few options
1.Discuss the removal and rebuilding of characters with your group flat out.This might be the quickest and best solution with a group of people who are reasonable.
2.Wipe them out. After Tamoachan they have to contend with the Aquatic hydra. Hydras are pretty tough and the comabt envroniment is not particulary favorable.If they survive that with ease, dont give them full xp.If and When the PC's survive that have no mercy on them when they get trapped in the Sargasso.Send in wave after wave of vine horrors.
3.When they reach the Isle itself, they could encounter a curse of strange phenonenon that permenatly changes their characters at either the Dark Mountian Pass area or even better somewhere in Fogmire.
I would go with option 1 personally.
I would then go with Turin's comments above as whats fair game for character rebuilding.
When in doubt:
'nuff said.