Is 10 months to get through Burnt Offerings and Skinsaw Murders considered slow? :PYou know I'm sure if we looked around we could find a "Slow Gamers at Play" sign for you...
I don´t think so. We play the AP (AE version) since July - 2013, that is. Last session was the 20th, and we just finished the seven´s sawmill.
So, according to her stats, Xanesha has a touch attack. Does this target the touch AC? The Impaler of Thorns does her no good if somebody stands right at her, as it is a reach weapon. Can she hold on to the weapon with one hand while making a touch attack? Or would she need to drop the weapon? Also, wouldn´t she drain one point of WIS with her first attack with the weapon? As it stands, she should try to keep the PCs one square away from herself, to maximize the use of her reach weapon and her great number of attacks of opportunity - 7, or even 8.
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Her wisdom draining attack targets touch AC of the opponent.
Yes, she can hold the weapon in one hand and use the other to attack with her touch attack; no dropping the weapon necessary.
Per the B2 entry for lamia matriarchs, yes, she would also drain 1 Wis with her first (successful) attack each round (DC 21 default).
Remember to use the 1/day effect of despair when she attacks for the first time!
Ruyan.
Ruyan,
thanks for your answer. I will think of that despair effect when my players encounter her.
Stefan
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Is 10 months to get through Burnt Offerings and Skinsaw Murders considered slow? :PYou know I'm sure if we looked around we could find a "Slow Gamers at Play" sign for you...
I started running the AP on July 14, 2014. Tomorrow (Feb 1) will be only our SIXTH game session. We will be starting The Skinsaw Murders.
My group is lucky to play once a month, and we haven't played since the middle of December (holidays, family schedules, etc.) Each group should play at their own place.
With one exception (our last game session) we only play about 6 hours per session, so it took about a total of about 35 hours to get through Burnt Offerings (heck, Thistletop took us two game sessions alone.)
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Is 10 months to get through Burnt Offerings and Skinsaw Murders considered slow? :PYou know I'm sure if we looked around we could find a "Slow Gamers at Play" sign for you...
I started running the AP on July 14, 2014. Tomorrow (Feb 1) will be only our SIXTH game session. We will be starting The Skinsaw Murders.
My group is lucky to play once a month, and we haven't played since the middle of December (holidays, family schedules, etc.) Each group should play at their own place.
With one exception (our last game session) we only play about 6 hours per session, so it took about a total of about 35 hours to get through Burnt Offerings (heck, Thistletop took us two game sessions alone.)
My group meets more often than yours, but we only play for 3-4 hours at a time. It's usually weeknights, and we all have to work the next day. We had a few delays when we could only meet once per month, but we're usually doing roughly 3 times per month these days. We had some delays through the holidays, too.
I think we started November 2013, and we're only halfway through Hook Mountain Massacre now.
I'm trying to figure out precisely how the Vent area (B-36) works in the caverns underneath Foxglove Manor.
If a character chooses not make a DC 5 Climb check when moving along the spiral path at 1/4 speed as a move action, then he will have to make an DC 12 Acrobatics check instead. If that check is failed by 5 or more, then he starts sliding down the ramp until he hits the water (taking damage depending on how far he slides).
Does the sliding follow the direction of the spiral, or simply the most direct route to the water (i.e., cutting across the spiral to the centre)?
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I'm trying to figure out precisely how the Vent area (B-36) works in the caverns underneath Foxglove Manor.
If a character chooses not make a DC 5 Climb check when moving along the spiral path at 1/4 speed as a move action, then he will have to make an DC 12 Acrobatics check instead. If that check is failed by 5 or more, then he starts sliding down the ramp until he hits the water (taking damage depending on how far he slides).
Does the sliding follow the direction of the spiral, or simply the most direct route to the water (i.e., cutting across the spiral to the centre)?
I ended up running this two separate ways with both my groups, although in both cases I had the sliding stick to the path of the spiral. My justification for that was thinking about a water slide that's been badly joined together. You're going to get cut up, but it's not going to do enough to stop your momentum.
What I ended up doing differently with the second group compared to the first group was with regards to how far one slides in a single turn. The first group, I had them slide all the way down to the bottom immediately, but holy heck that turned out to be pretty dang lethal because the people who fall tend to be those in heavy armor who then can't make their swim checks at the end. So, for the second group, I played it that over the course of a round a sliding person made it about halfway down. This gave the rest of the party that wasn't sliding 1 chance to do something before the ultimate conclusion of the slide.
My players from group 1 referred to this place as "the toilet bowl of doom" :P
Yeah, I was leaning in the direction of the "waterslide of doom" myself, but wanted to hear if there were any arguments against it. :)
Greetings fellow travellers.
Related to the area about which Bellona inquired I have a little difficulties imaging how the final encounter plays out.
1. Iesha arrives at the stone door to B37, unmolested by undead in caves and starts smashing down the door as PCs arrive in B36
2. Iesha succeeds and enters the room, PCs follow suit (watch the spiral of watery death!)
3. Aldern and Iesha... reunite and she kills him (slowly, in a hug) while the PCs hack-slash-maim-away at Aldern/the two...Iesha is freed, happy end
ORLY?
That would mean the whole the whole story about Aldern's personality-merry-go-round, 1 1/2 pages will be skipped with a kill-steal by an NPC.
I find that really unsatisfying and dissapointing.
So, did I mis-read this part of Misgivings? How did you handle this fight? What did you change?
Thanks for your input!
Ruyan.
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That's basically the progression as the book suggests, RuyanVe. I agree, if the PCs allow Iesha to go fight Aldern by herself, then they basically achieve an off-screen win. This is sorta unsatisfying, since the whole thing should be a chance to show that Aldern is all sorts of screwed up in the head - something that should be readily apparent by the time they meet him, but they won't realize just how bad it is until they meet him.
So, what I'd do is if the PCs allow her to go by, then they need to escort her. I would have the undead fight her and substantially weaken her so that by the time she gets to Aldern, he's able to slay her, albeit at the cost of the ghouls and ghasts in the way. The PCs get the XP for these defeated encounters if they beat him, as they have overcome these challenges in a creative way. Also, Aldern would have some damage on him as well, so that fight might be a bit easier.
If, however, they escort her all the way to the door, drawing attacks off of her - and since she's a revenant, she's not going to stop while they heal themselves - she'll basically hand Aldern his own ass. That'd be the reward for helping her - they get to short circuit a boss fight.
Of course, in my game, they didn't do any of this. They fought her in the room, and very nearly died. She's a force to be reckoned with. Fortunately for them, I don't see her interested in killing anyone other than Aldern, so if people get out of her way, she'll ignore them.
If your players are reading the GM Reference thread, you have bigger problems than Iesha Foxglove.
As to your questions, mine went thusly.
Also keep in mind that:
(1) While the ghouls in the cellar let Iesha through, they do not do the same for the PCs. So she gets ahead of them, as she did in my game.
(2) As many have pointed out, Iesha would tear Aldern a new one, ending the combat offscreen. The book takes care of this:
The door to area B37 poses a final barrier to Iesha. Feel free to have her scramble and smash against this door for as long as you wish if you want the PCs to be present for her attack on Foxglove—otherwise you can have her smash through the door to confront her murderer whenever you wish.
Aldern calls the goblin ghasts from area B36 to his aid as soon as Iesha attacks. These ghasts make all the difference—with their aid, Aldern destroys Iesha while surviving the fight himself with 3d6 hit points remaining, making his eventual fight against the PCs much easier assuming they can confront him before he has a chance to heal his damage.
In short, the AP lets you decide how your players would like the story to unfold, and lets you have it happen accordingly.
Personally, I had him cut her down "on screen" even though the stats say that can't happen, because it made for a wonderful final scene where the players really didn't mind him not making it more than a round. But players have different expectations. If your players demand a boss fight, have a ghast grapple Iesha down the "toilet bowl" so Aldern's at full health when they confront him.
Thanks for the input!
I will definitely go for the "on screen" version with Aldern killing Iesha as I know my players and they want to put Aldern down for good.
Ruyan.
PS: the spoiler was more of a general precaution as my players don't usually come here
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I didn't like the end game for Iesha and Aldern either and for much the same reason - the pc's do little or nothing to produce victory. So I made a few subtle changes.
1. Iesha did not directly tear through the floor to get to Aldern. I had her wander/rage about the basement - stymied by the door to Vorel's Workshop (B29) which she lacks the strength to force. My pc's followed her, beset all the while by haunts and rat swarms, and let her move about while they explored. She eventually went back upstairs screaming for Aldern. The pc's then picked the lock to the Workshop (good roll by Bard - they had not found the key) and proceeded through and down.
2. As they reached the caverns below, I had the ghouls in the area converge on them (I don't like static/stay in place monsters.) Some came through the mold room, kicking plenty up in a wave before them forcing some saves from the pc's. While fighting the ghouls, Iesha tore through the floor, showering the wizard who was still technically on the stairs with debris. She jumped down among them and tore through towards Aldern.
3. Having finished off the ghouls, the pc's followed her only to be beset by the ghasts and having to deal with the heavily armored characters (cleric and fighter) falling down the ramp and plunging into the pool. It was an interesting sight - the pc's fighting for their lives - fortunately, no one in armor and in the water got paralyzed - all the while Iesha was pounding on the door (again her strength doesn't get through the door on her own)
4. When the pc's defeated the ghasts they used aid another to help her break down the door and confront Aldern. It proceeded as per the AP, except as Iesha started to attack, Aldern activated his Stalker's Mask to appear as her. Not that he would know how that would affect her but the item does give him a bonus against creatures he is imitating. It works far beyond his expectations as that paralyzes her with self-loathing. PC's confront him and 4 on 1, it's not much of a fight even without any damage from her.
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Yeah, the link between wizard and familiar specifically calls out that the master is just getting general feelings sent back to him, and cannot see through his familiar's eyes. They can eventually do something like that, once they can scry on their familiar once per day, but that's at 13th level. I don't really see anything upon cursory examination that lets a wizard get around this limitation, so if they want to cast spells through their familiar, they need to be able to see the battlefield in some manner. This usually means they need to be on site, but invisibility is definitely an option.
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Yeah, I'm afraid your wizard is horrifically misusing the familiar rules.
Deliver Touch Spells (Su): If the master is 3rd level or higher, a familiar can deliver touch spells for him. If the master and the familiar are in contact at the time the master casts a touch spell, he can designate his familiar as the “toucher.” The familiar can then deliver the touch spell just as the master would. As usual, if the master casts another spell before the touch is delivered, the touch spell dissipates.
So first off, the wizard has to touch the familiar to cast the spell in the first place.
As a GM, I would also rule against using a wand or scroll on the familiar, arguing that the spell has to be cast by the wizard, not an item. But that's a debate you don't even need to get into, because the wizard was in gross violation of the rules already.
Similarly, the communication is:
Empathic Link (Su): The master has an empathic link with his familiar to a 1 mile distance. The master can communicate empathically with the familiar, but cannot see through its eyes. Because of the link's limited nature, only general emotions can be shared. The master has the same connection to an item or place that his familiar does.
This is a strong argument that knowing which spell to cast when would be a no-no; though I would allow, "As long as my familiar is anxious, as if he is in combat, I keep pumping Shocking Grasps into him." But again, that violates the first rule.
Hope that helps!
EDIT: I really do love your party's ingenuity. It's nice to have a group that uses intelligence and good tactics to get around situations, rather than just, "I kick in the front door and kill it."
I like their tactics, but I'm afraid they have to actually play within the rules...
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Greetings, fellow travellers.
Just a quick round-up what happened last night when my group (all lvl6 HE cleric of Sarenrae, HO ranger w/ badger, H fighter w/ greater trip, H rogue, H inquisitor and almost out of resources) confronted Aldern.
I went for a more cinematic approach and bent some rules for dramatic appearance, but nothing major.
When they entered the water slide they caught up with Iesha who was clawing at the door, were beset by the ghasts and dispatched them almost unharmed (crit w/ bow ranger w/ FE undead +4 and Greater Trip).
Iesha went in on round 2. The PCs heard a loud scream (male voice) followed by another one (female voice).
Being really scared by the slippery surface they decided to explored the grave first and found a narrow opening in the walls which allowed them to squeeze through it only to be standing 5 feet away from the door to Aldern's abode.
In they went and were greeted by Aldern. In my game I had Aldern subdue Iesha who was at that time kneeling next to his desk.
I also gave Aldern a butler (another ghast named Alfred). He greeted the PCs as per the book, then stood up, killed Iesha (GM fiat) and ordered his butler to serve something to drink and eat (this triggered the haunt, but the PC in question made his save).
Next round the PC cautiously advanced which gave Aldern time to don the mask. Fighting ensued. Some rounds later Aldern was Greater Tripped and two PCs were paralyzed by the butler (bad positioning and bad rolls) which had Aldern turn on the butler scolding him for robbing him of all the fun and killing him with a crit by his razor.
The cleric dragged the PC Aldern was obsessed with away to impede a coo day grahs.
Aldern needed to get up and advanced again on the PC and the cleric.
Next round the cleric placed a badly placed fireball into the room nearly killing the rest of the party while Aldern gracefully avoided it (evasion 4tw!). This slightly changed the mood at the table... (which wasn't made any better when the cleric's player commented it with "I always wanted to do that" and "Oh, I'm sixth level so I have resist fire 10, you know" and Aldern's congratulation for such a splendid idea.).
Paralysis ended with the beginning of next round and the PCs were finally able to down Aldern when he wanted to gracefully tumble out of a flanking.
The PCs and me enjoyed it very much, it was a memorable fight. And the players are already anxious how to get out of the room back up!
Ruyan.
My first group has just finished the Misgivings. They released Iesha, and basically followed her as she made her way down to the caverns and the "waterslide of doom". Not being too happy at the easy ride that they were getting that that point, I took a page out of another GM's book (can't remember off-hand who it is on the boards here), and let Iesha get a bit ahead of the party while they were fighting the first set of ghouls. While she was "off-screen", she failed the necessary skill checks on the waterslide, and therefore fell into the drink. She's not a great swimmer, so she spent the rest of her time trying to get up out of the water while the party explored the rest of the caverns and ran into Aldern. The party never saw her again.
One question about PF revenants: do they have any regenerative ability beyond that of all intelligent undead? (I.e, healing their number of HD in hp every day.) Old school revenants were super-scary because they were Terminator-like in their determination and could regenerate from destruction (sort of like a lich). I don't see anything in the current stat block to represent that sort of regeneration.
You're right that it doesn't say anything explicit a la the grave knight, but it drops a couple of hints:
Reason to Hate (Su): A revenant's existence is fueled by its hatred for its murderer. As long as the murderer exists, the revenant exists. If the murderer dies, the revenant is immediately slain. A murderer who becomes undead does not trigger a revenant's destruction. When a revenant encounters its murderer, it gains the benefits of a haste spell (CL 20th) that lasts as long as its murderer remains in sight. Against its murderer, the revenant also gains a +4 profane bonus on attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, grapple checks, and saving throws.
Fueled by hatred and a need for vengeance, a revenant rises from the grave to hunt and kill its murderer. Devoid of any compassion, emotion, or logic, a revenant has but one purpose, and cannot rest until it has found vengeance.
So by RAW, no. That's all "flavor text" and revenants can just be killed like any other undead. But if it's a homebrew game, you're welcome to interpret those as a "cat came back"-like ruthlessness and have her come back fully reformed every night at midnight until the murderer is slain...
The first group did indeed kill Aldern, so Iesha is now dead for good. I was just posing the question because the PF revenant's stat block is unclear on how it would come back from being destroyed if its original killer is still in existence.
Hello everyone! My party has finished exploring the Catacombs of the Wrath, and now is going to go towards Thistletop.
Hoping that the Heroes of Sandpoint succeed in their aim, I'm already studying the 2nd adventure... and I must say that this "Skinsaw" not fond of it.
So, this Skinsaw is a CR 8 bloodthirsty “partial vampire” and it creates a situation similar to Shiki manga spreading Sandpoint's hinterlands with dead hungry for human blood. They are not controlled by Skinsaw, but their hungry (or thirsty) is so strong than the affection they feel for their loved ones and much stronger of the shame and awareness of their condition - so they remain holed up in their shelters during the day, and wait for nightfall to hunt. Obviously, the situation in the town could degenerate into a hysterical vampire hunt, with a group of villagers who arm themselves with torches and pitchforks and intend to go to the cemetery to "take care" of their dead.
There is also the question of obsession (and here the "envious creatures" template): the "lucky" PC is a CG Shoanti warpriest of Gorum. Becoming a vampire, the envy against the Shoanti became an unholy obsession. That is due to the influence of the Vorel's spirit (or for its transformation into a vampire), his envy is so deep in him gives him terrible powers (like covetous strike and driven by envy).
What do you all think?
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Hello everyone! My party has finished exploring the Catacombs of the Wrath, and now is going to go towards Thistletop.
Hoping that the Heroes of Sandpoint succeed in their aim, I'm already studying the 2nd adventure... and I must say that this "Skinsaw" not fond of it.** spoiler omitted **
What do you all think?
Be careful how much you change it. The link to the rest of the story is
The connection to the plotline is that Justice Ironbriar, leader of the Skinsaw Cult, has been charmed by Xanesha, who is a minion of Karzoug (the campaign's BBEG). If you remove the link between the Skinsaw Man (Aldern) and the Skinsaw Cult then you are removing the connection to the rest of the plot (since the Skinsaw Man leads to Ironbriar who leads to Xanesha who leads to the next chapter in the story).
Just be careful when you make changes that you don't lose that connection or the PCs will be confused as to why this other guy matters.
@el cuervo: wait, i don't say "I remove the conncetion with the Skinsaw about the main plot", but "I don't like X template, so I replace it with Y template" :P
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@el cuervo: wait, i don't say "I remove the conncetion with the Skinsaw about the main plot", but "I don't like X template, so I replace it with Y template" :P
That's fine, then, but the reason Aldern is a ghoul is what ties him to the Skinsaw Cult (they want the cursed fungus that turned him into a ghoul -- he contracted ghoul fever when trying to collect that fungus).
@el cuervo: wait, i don't say "I remove the conncetion with the Skinsaw about the main plot", but "I don't like X template, so I replace it with Y template" :PThat's fine, then, but the reason Aldern is a ghoul is what ties him to the Skinsaw Cult (they want the cursed fungus that turned him into a ghoul -- he contracted ghoul fever when trying to collect that fungus).
Don't worry, i have an explanation about this change:
But Vorel was aslo a member of the Brothers of the Seven - a Skinsaw Man cult situated in Magnimar(and even Judge Ironbrar was a member). In addition to being a follower of Norgorber, Vorel was also a necromancer and it had a sinister plan regarding his unaware family and Magnimar - he wished to become a vampire. He wanted to embrace the night, but searched a method to become a lord of the night without the risk of being enslaved by another vampire. He built the manor of that point of the Lost Coast 'cause, many centuries ago, an unknown member of the Whispering Way seemed to have succeeded in this aim, and dwelt in the depths of the earth. Vorel built the manor exaclty above the point where supposed to find entry into the dwelling of the ancient vampire.
He founded the vampire's lair, but there was no trace of the undead - perhaps he had abandoned that place, or it had been destroyed. For Vorel didn't matter, for he had found ancient manuscripts and notes on how to proceed with the transformation into a vampire. So he spent a few months to follow the procedures of this unholy ritual, and on the night of lunar eclipse succeeded in doing and began to prepare to abandon his life to embrace the eternal night.
But his wife Kasanda uncovered his vile plan. She confronted him and ruined his ritual. The necromantic blacklash destroyed Vorel's body in one horrendous blast of disease and decay, and killing Kasanda and every inhabitant of the manor.
Vorel become a malignant spirit that haunted Foxglove's Manor, and the descendants of the Foxglove's family seemed to meet a tragic end. Included Aldern - he killed his wife, believing that she was cheating him, and he hid the body in the manor. The Judge Ironbriar was a friend of Foxglove, so Aldern asked his help - but the elven decided instead to blackmail him and forced him to join in the Skinsaw Man's cult. Ironbriar (enslaved by the Xanesha's magic) then ordered the unfortunate to go in Sandpoint, observe its inhabitants and make a list of possible victim.
Aldern comes in Sandpoint during the festival, and here is attacked by goblins - only to be saved by players. There he meets "Black Iron" Tarkus (CB Shoanti warpriest of Gorum), a proud "Gorum's blessed". Aldern and Tarkus became friends, and listening to the adventures faced by the Sklar-Quah in the wilderness Aldern was influenced enough to be impressed. But, then, Aldern was torn by remorse of is reprehensible actions, and by a sense of envy he felt towards his friend, trying to imagine himself as an indomitable hero who fearlessly faced dangers and enemies.
When Aldern completed his task in the city, he set out Magnimar but was caught in the rain and was forced to spend the night in the Misgivings. The Vorel's spirit felt in his descendant fear, madness and envy.... and he used his influence to bring him up to his old underground laboratory. Aldern felt inexplicably drawn to a kind of invitation, as he walked trembling darkness and desolation of the manor, and when he got there he felt the sudden urge to eat the fungus (the Vorel's remains). He contracted a necromantic disease, was seized with terrible pain and was soon consumed by all the hatred and madness concentrated in that place.
Suspecting that Aldern had fled, Ironbriar sent a cultist in the manor. He came upon the new Aldern - a twisted and tormented fleshbound vampire! The cultist managed to escape because the vampire, looking at the Norgorber's unholy symol, could remember something of her former life, and this allowed the cultist to escape and return to Magnimar. When the Judge was informed of what had happened, Xanesha decided to seize this opportunity and maneuver what was once Aldern Foxglove as a messenger of death and terrible reaper of souls for Karzoug - the Skinsaw!
it is ironic that, as a vampire, Aldern seems willingly follow the Skinsaw Man's orders. Ironbriar and Xanesha maneuver their new agent, making him perform the murders in Sandpoint. This vampire can not turn into a cloud, but can enter any home without asking permission from the owner - which makes it perfect as a killer. But it is not only the curse of Foxglove that animates this undead - the envy ("Envious creature", Pathways #16) felt towards Tarkus made him a sociopath: feels joy in inflicting pain and despair in its victims, especially if they have some connection with the Shoanti. It will throw shame on the warpriest: it intends to show everyone that Tarkus is nothing but a braggart and a liar, that in times of need he is incapable of dealing with problems. Even better, he wants to kill the Shoanti's friends and, if we can, try to catch him in some way in order to be found guilty by the Sandpoint's people.
And so, instead of a carrion-eating ghouls, I have a crazy vampire who could spread the disease of vampirism in Sandpoint if the players fail to control the situation!
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@el cuervo: wait, i don't say "I remove the conncetion with the Skinsaw about the main plot", but "I don't like X template, so I replace it with Y template" :PThat's fine, then, but the reason Aldern is a ghoul is what ties him to the Skinsaw Cult (they want the cursed fungus that turned him into a ghoul -- he contracted ghoul fever when trying to collect that fungus).Don't worry, i have an explanation about this change:
** spoiler omitted **...
Very cool, great work. :)
Oh, thank you!.. but I have two doubts:
2) To make more concrete the Aldern's envy, i will apply "envious template". But this is a CR +2 template (change shape, various curse-attacks and many resistances which apply to all but the envied creature), so the my Skinsaw become a dreadful CR 9. I anticipate that the group will come to the 6th-7th level before arriving to Misgivings, but I would not want this challenge become a TPK (especially if Tarkus, the Aldern's obsession, die during this adventure and before meeting the vampire, because he can ignore DR and RI bye the envious template)
I guess in all the jumble of things I want to do in between facing Aldren and facing Xanesha, I have glossed over how to connect the ledger in the Foxglove townhouse to the specific lumber mill that is the Seven's Lumber mill.
I mean does everyone just run it with a big sign outside "The Seven's Lumbermill"?
I'm planning a bit more for the players in town, so I'll have ways to get them the information about which is the right lumber mill.
My players found Pug's punch (from the bird cages) and will be in the general vicinity of the mill.
As mentioned in the Magnimar source book, there are a many mills on Kyver's Island so I think they will be able to connect the dots (with a general description of traffic on the streets, saw dust on the streets etc.
Plus: diplomacy checks.
Ruyan.
As mentioned in the Magnimar source book, there are a many mills on Kyver's Island
Ruyan.
That's actually the part that makes it such a weak link - "Yeah, ok, all the local lumber mills are on this isle, do we just start investigating all of them?"
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The adventure seems to imply that the name of this mill isn't a secret. It's called The Seven's Sawmill, so tracking down a business with that name should be a pretty easy knowledge: local check.
Heck, in my campaign, the PC with the highest knowledge: local is a Magnimar native, so I gave him a +2 circumstance bonus, and he rolled high enough for his PC to know it off the top of his head. I forget what I set the DC at - maybe 15 or something to know where to find a specific business in a large city.
I suppose I could run it with the "Ye Olde Seevin's Sawmille and Lumberworkes" sign, it just seems so silly.
The adventure does just seem to imply that finding the right lumber mill is trivial, going right from Townhouse to largely meaningless blurb about Norgorber cults to Lumbermill with no description of even a sign on the Mill.
A DC 15 Knowledge (local)
check is enough to reveal the location of this sawmill, as
is a DC 15 Diplomacy check made to gather information.
, is what's given in the book.
If that's too easy for your game (which I kinda agree with), as GM, you can create all crazy stuff like rumors, information hunting, scouting and such you like.
I'm still thinking about having the Scarlet Son as a side adventure for my cleric of Sarenrea and use that as another cult being used by X for her schemes and drop some information how to find the mill in there.
Ruyan.
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The thing about the Brotherhood of the Seven is that it is only semi-secret. The membership is completely secret ("seven members of minor nobility" is the most detailed information available to locals), but the fact that the group exists and owns a sawmill on Kyver's Isle is not. Locals would know that the people working at the mill are just regular mill workers. (And obviously not that they are also secretly Norgorber/Skinsaw cultists.)
From what I recall of the various sources, only three members of the Brotherhood are ever mentioned: Vorel Foxglove (now deceasesd ... mostly), Kyver (connected with the founders of Magnimar, presumably now deceased), and Ironbriar (current leader and only named current member). GMs wanting to expand the Magnimar section could create the rest of the seven members and have them try to get revenge on the party for killing Ironbriar and/or destroying the sawmill.
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That's actually the part that makes it such a weak link - "Yeah, ok, all the local lumber mills are on this isle, do we just start investigating all of them?"As mentioned in the Magnimar source book, there are a many mills on Kyver's Island
Ruyan.
I'm a bit perplexed at the trouble here. The deed found at the townhouse explicitly indicates the Foxglove Manor belongs to a group called the Brothers of the Seven. (A group who made a deal with a man attempting to become a lich!) Alden's ledger indicates he was paying 200p a week to something called "B-7" for a trip his wife never made and he was doing it at midnight on Oathday at a place called Seven's Sawmill.
Now you can call that a very simple and easy-to-follow clue - the DM could simply a hand the players a note that says "Bad People are doing Bad Things at a place called Seven's Sawmill. Please go there and do something."
But I'm not sure why it should be hard to find the sawmill itself. Yes, all the mills are on Kyver's Island because the river is how they get trees. All pre-industrial mills were on a river shore - most post-industrial as well. Even if no one in the party knows anything about Magnimar, any resident could say "All mills are on the island." And the AP makes it pretty clear Seven's Sawmill operates as a legitimate, working mill. So Yes, it has a sign - it's a place of business. And it hardly seems a leap to assume every resident of Kyver's Island knows where it is. Or the pc's could just walk along the line of mills until they find it.
I do not have the AE, there's no mention of how to find the right sawmill, as RuyanVe notes IS in the AE.
I suppose I have also been projecting my homebrew's versions of some of the things onto the APs. I perhaps have ALSO been reading it as the Seven's sawmill, not "The Seven's Sawmill" - which is the type of sign that would really NEVER appear on a business owned by my homebrew's version of the Brotherhood.
The clues are simple and easy to follow, my brain just kept rejecting the idea that the sign on the sawmill literally reads "The Seven's Sawmill".
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I'd have to read the original text again to see how the Brotherhood of Seven is described, but in the AE (or, at least, my version of the AE), the Brotherhood of Seven is a secret organization the same way that the Masons are a secret organization. People know them as an old group of nobles that have similar business ventures, and went in together to make even more money. They didn't bother to keep their public facade hidden, figuring (mostly correctly) that people won't dig too deep beyond finding out who makes up the Brotherhood, and what their true, sinister purposes really are. It's how Ironbriar has managed to run a Norgorber cult in Magnimar for so long - most people will stop digging into a mystery once they think they've solved it.
Great explanation, Misroi.
Ruyan.
Just wanted to report that my group just arrived at the sawmill. And I have to add: I handeled it the way it was written in the AE version and it was ... really underwhelming. Especially after the roleplaying, fighting and guess working/riddle solving they had to go through at the Foxglove townhouse.
Hopefully, I can handle the way how they find out about the neXt stop in a more immersive and satisfying way... (I do have hope, though, as I plan on using the Scarlet Sun module for my priest of Sarenrae as a red herring).
Ruyan.
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I could see how the sawmill could be kinda dull if they just go straight in.
My group staked out the place and watched everyone coming and going for a day before actually approaching. They were seen doing it, so the judge was ready for them. The paladin managed to detect evil on one of the guys going in, and overestimate the mooks' strength because of it (they're level 1 clerics, after all). Then, the judge managed to catch the whole party with Confusion, and half of them failed the save. It was fun. :)
I'm running this with the AE version, for two different groups. Group One has four PCs, is not very optimised, and were not flight-capable when they visited the Shadow Clock. Group Two has five PCs, some extremely optimised characters, and at least two of them will be flight capable when it comes to the Shadow Clock.
I've already given Xanesha one more class level so that she's Rogue 2 (Unchained version), plus the Chameleon archetype (UC). This gave Group One a nice hard fight (she barely got away with very low hit points).
But now I'm wondering about how to improve her action economy for when Group Two finds her. Should I add another foe, and if so, then what should be added? While I am not against rewarding a group which actually scouts first before kicking down the door, I would like Xanesha to put up a decent fight as it's the end of Book 2. Therefore it's imperative that she not be surprised or lose out when it comes to action economy.
For those who want a break-down of Group Two:
Barbarian: high Strength, uses 2H wpn (but his Will saves - particularly against illusions - are his weak spot). High damage, low AC, has Step Up feat and No Escape rage power.
Multi-class mess #1 (kensai Magus/Aldori Swordlord Fighter/Aldori Sworldlord pr.cl.): obscenely high AC, uses Dex for both to hit and damage.
Slayer: switch-hitter theme (as per the Ranger build guide). Not much information yet on this one's effectiveness, as it's a replacement PC for a character who was eaten by ghouls.
Multi-class mess #2 (hexcrafter Magus/Cleric/Mystic Theurge): experimental build, but I'm already getting tired of the one-trick pony deal with the Rime Spell-Frostbite combo (no save for the rider effect, and helped along with by an OP trait that reduces the meta-magicked spell's effective spell level). Flies via Flight hex.
Druid: not a combat monster, has no animal companion, but instead is the sneakiest scout this group has ever seen. And can fly (wildshape, etc.).
This issue is not yet urgent, but I would like to plan ahead if possible. Any good advice from my fellow RotR GMs?
I'd add a succubus as her handmaiden. The demon is acting as messenger between X and her sister (not that it matters much). The demon fits the scheme and could even be an "advanced" Nualia.
Or maybe 1-2 babaus if the succubus is of too high level.
Hm. Now, you've given me ideas... but I think I will stick with my mythic X to shock my group.
Ruyan.
Just wanted to report that my group just arrived at the sawmill. And I have to add: I handeled it the way it was written in the AE version and it was ... really underwhelming. Especially after the roleplaying, fighting and guess working/riddle solving they had to go through at the Foxglove townhouse.
Hopefully, I can handle the way how they find out about the neXt stop in a more immersive and satisfying way... (I do have hope, though, as I plan on using the Scarlet Sun module for my priest of Sarenrae as a red herring).
Ruyan.
I guess it comes down to expectations. The fight at the Sawmill was interesting (for me at least) but by the time my pc's were headed there, they were pretty convinced they'd find something bad. So no one was expecting much role-playing. My group had the keys for the Townhouse but had missed the Pug's Contraptions clue and did not know where the Townhouse was. While making inquiries as to its location (not as discretely as they may have wanted) one of Ironbriar's agents caught on and started following them. Plus I had city guards discretely watching the Townhouse on Ironbriar's orders - the pc's spotted both as they left. They dodged the tail and the guards and decided to immediately head to the Sawmill. A good seizing of the initiative on their part - I could not justify anyone getting a warning to Ironbriar quickly enough to matter so the group came upon the Sawmill largely "unawares."
I decided that night was a cult ceremony night so most of the cultists were on the top two floors getting prepped, etc. when the pc's tried to sneak in. When the group cleric recognized the signs of Norgorber, any pretense at diplomacy ended. A running fight on both floors and intervening stairwell ensued. The cultists including Ironbriar put up a good fight - which they wouldn't have if I'd let my group take them out piecemeal (floor-by-floor.) Only the cultists from the bottom level survived - fleeing into the night rather than get slaughtered.
When I first started haunting these forums I did not think of my group as "highly optimized" but I think they actually are. They rolled their ability scores - I haven't done the math but I'm confident they are well above a 15 pt. buy. No multiclassing (by their choice) and all core rulebook classes - fighter, wizard (conjuration) cleric, bard. They have quite a bit of experience with 3.x and know what they're doing. If I let them take the encounters "room by room" as provided in the AP, they cut through them like a hot knife through butter.
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I'm running this with the AE version, for two different groups. Group One has four PCs, is not very optimised, and were not flight-capable when they visited the Shadow Clock. Group Two has five PCs, some extremely optimised characters, and at least two of them will be flight capable when it comes to the Shadow Clock.
I've already given Xanesha one more class level so that she's Rogue 2 (Unchained version), plus the Chameleon archetype (UC). This gave Group One a nice hard fight (she barely got away with very low hit points).
But now I'm wondering about how to improve her action economy for when Group Two finds her. Should I add another foe, and if so, then what should be added? While I am not against rewarding a group which actually scouts first before kicking down the door, I would like Xanesha to put up a decent fight as it's the end of Book 2. Therefore it's imperative that she not be surprised or lose out when it comes to action economy.
For those who want a break-down of Group Two:
Barbarian: high Strength, uses 2H wpn (but his Will saves - particularly against illusions - are his weak spot). High damage, low AC, has Step Up feat and No Escape rage power.
Multi-class mess #1 (kensai Magus/Aldori Swordlord Fighter/Aldori Sworldlord pr.cl.): obscenely high AC, uses Dex for both to hit and damage.
Slayer: switch-hitter theme (as per the Ranger build guide). Not much information yet on this one's effectiveness, as it's a replacement PC for a character who was eaten by ghouls.
Multi-class mess #2 (hexcrafter Magus/Cleric/Mystic Theurge): experimental build, but I'm already getting tired of the one-trick pony deal with the Rime Spell-Frostbite combo (no save for the rider effect, and helped along with by an OP trait that reduces the meta-magicked spell's effective spell level). Flies via Flight hex.
Druid: not a combat monster, has no animal companion, but instead is the sneakiest scout this group has ever seen. And can fly (wildshape, etc.).
This issue is not yet urgent, but I would...
I made several changes to the Clock Tower encounter, largely changing the occupant's tactics.
Note 1: A couple Skinsaw cultists survived the battle at the Sawmill (the ones on the lowest level) and fled to the Clock tower and Xanesha in desperation. They weren't too keen on her beforehand but after arriving, she was their bestest buddy! You're always the center of attention when you can charm monster at will.
Note 2: I thought the AP did not fully leverage her charm, seduction and illusion powers so I made some modifications. Xanesha had long ago assumed human form and appeared before the residents of Underbridge as a displaced and betrayed noble woman, cast out from her wealth by treachery and corruption in the city guards and nobles (about whom the residents of Underbridge always believe the worst.) Using her various charm and illusion powers (even healing) she built a large network of friends, followers and informants throughout Underbridge. This helped her keep tabs on her immediate surroundings and find greed-sacrifice candidates among the populace.
There had been a lag of days between the battle at the sawmill and the pc's going to the clock tower (they wanted to decipher Ironbriar's journal first.) So by the time the pc's got there, Xanesha was ready. Entering the ground level of the tower triggered a fight with the Scarecrow and the surviving cultists. As the party defeated them, Xanesha used her major image ability to have an illusion of her human form and a couple cultists flee the tower. The pc's pursued into an ambush of thugs and other Sczarni assailants, supported on the edges by drunkards, prostitutes, etc. (all taken from the City of Magnimar sourcebook or NPC codex.) Xanesha hoped to come upon the pc's being overwhelmed by Underbridge residents creating an opportunity for her and her faceless stalker minions to finish them off. Alas, the pc's took out the thugs faster than she anticipated and she did not expose herself by joining the fight. The pc's then had a chance to interact and interrogate the hostile locals - finding evidence of charms, etc. They also managed to track down a surviving attacker who pointed them to the source of his "orders" but by the time the pc's got there, Xanesha had already started rolling things up - their next lead was dead. In a closed room. With signs a large snake had been present.
The pc's went back to the tower thinking they wouldn't find anything more there but just to check it out to be sure. The faceless stalkers triggered the trapped bell and then moved to the roof. The stalkers have taken the form of cultists and when the pc's finally get to the roof, Xanesha is casting another illusion making it appear the cultists are summoning a bearded devil. To make it more believable, I have the pc's use Knowledge: the Planes to recognize exactly what it is and have it be something their meta-game perspective will suggest they can defeat. They charge in hoping to disrupt the summoning and Xanesha falls on them from behind while invisible - her full attack almost kills the wizard. Almost. Cut to running battle on the roof and eventually a hunt for the invisible Xanesha.
I added the faceless stalkers to her encounter by simply having them move up after triggering the trap. And by having them begin in an alternate form, they get a combat boost by reverting to their true shape. They also tie nicely to the Townhouse encounter so Xanesha's allies "make sense" - are consistent. I also wanted to emphasize Xanesha's charm and illusion powers to more fully foreshadow how Lucretia could do the same thing to the people of Turtleback Ferry and the Skull River valley.
Nice, Latrecis!
Xanesha is (still) a powerhouse and I'll have to be careful to not overwhelm my players with her; though I tend to add additional opponents to encounters (and I'm gonna use the advanced and diversified versions of the cultist at the mill) I think I will refrain from it in this fight.
Her SLAs will cut deep into my group (4 PCs, all 7th level) though she is at a disadvantage concerning action economy and space (though climb speed and acrobatics help).
BTW: Would it be too meta-gamey from my side to have her use deep slumber/charm monster/suggestion directly on the fighter and rogue?
Your approach at using her illusion and charm on the local populace really appeals to me and it would give me another opportunity to bring Magnimar to life!
I feel really sad that this city is given so small a space to shine in the AP but as it's not the Magnimar Conspiracy AP I guess that's OK (and me having all the needed information and unmarked maps at the ready when my group moves through the city has left me more than once with the feeling I could've done better).
Ruyan.
The AP does not develop Magnimar on purpose (at least that's my interpretation.) The pc's are Sandpoint's heroes; Magnimar is just another exotic location they travel to in order to save Sandpoint (Thistletop, Hook Mountain, Jorgenfist, Runeforge, Xin Shalast.) Especially considering it's in Book 2, there's a risk players will assume their advancing level coincides with moving up to the big time in the Big City and focus their attentions on all the things going on in Magnimar, which, let's be honest, can be a heck of a lot more interesting than Sandpoint in terms of all the things that can happen/be done there. But, as written, the pc's need to return to/care about Sandpoint in Book 4 and 5 (and to a lesser extent, Book 6) so too much passion for Magnimar might make it harder "catch" the pc's on the associated plot hooks.
True. And by the time the original AP was published the Magnimar sourcebook was but a distant haze at the horizon.
Ruyan.
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I am looking for advice on how I should handle the actions of my players.
Thanks