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It's actually not that easy; fonts are strange beasts. The font in Pathfinder is actually AT the same font size as the one used in Dungeon. Changes to the font would, of course, come with changes to the margin sizes and therefore to the actual layout of the book, which is why it's such a complicated task.
Given this, it might make sense to just change the font used for the main text. I understand it's hard to pick these things and they get expensive when you start selling products that use 10 fonts and your audience is in the thousands. I don't notice much in the print version, but it's very obvious in the PDF that the font used in pathfinder has a very thin stroke. For example, the serifs on the 't's and 'f's and the dots on 'i's and 'j's aren't really distinct in adobe reader until I'm zoomed in to about 200%. Compare that to the non-serif font (example pg. 75, "Extra XP?" box) which is not a large strain at 100% and is very readable at 125%.
Also, I don't want to seem overly down on the font picked. I think it looks really cool. Just impossible to read when I'm zoomed way out. ;)*Edit*
A very quick glance at myfonts showed up Miller and Fiona. I'm not suggesting these specific ones be used, but rather these are good to observe in terms of the readability of the letters as compared to the pathfinder pdf's main font. They have a very different "feel" to them, though. Don't want pathfinder to stop oozing in style. :)
I'm glad the font will be getting bigger. Its too bad it has to change, its a nice font and consistency would be nice.
It also seems though that there is a HUGE amount of linespacing with the font. I bet you could make the font one point larger and reduce linespacing and not have to cut content (much?)
Wes and James already answered for me but never fear, I am in the process to make everyone happy. There are many fonts out there and will be "testing" many of them for both space and readability!
This is maybe remotely on-topic, but in my PDF, all the A's in the headings are missing. Could it be because of my Reader?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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PLEASE do something as soon as possible. A font change this early in Pathfinder's run will not be a big deal and I'll guarantee that there are plenty of people in stores taking Pathfinder off the shelf, looking at a few pages, and then putting it right back while rubbing their eyes.I'm with Bavix; it's nasty. I *can* read it, but it's not the pleasant experience it should be. I notice the difficulty way too much, and I've found it more difficult to get through the issue than I expected, despite the great content.
I spend all day staring at screens and papers. The last thing I need is a small, difficult font taunting me in my off hours.
Hey! Who let him out of the mines!
You need to get back there to make sure we get kobold goodness!
This is maybe remotely on-topic, but in my PDF, all the A's in the headings are missing. Could it be because of my Reader?
Most likely.
If you haven't done so, you should upgrade your reader to the newest version.
I'm all for font sizes that are legible, but I have to say I really like the current font size, primarily for the sheer density of subject matter. Subscribing to Pathfinder, I was initially worried about the cost versus page count, but after seeing those tiny little words and the sheer DM goodness that suffused the pages of that beautiful (if all too slim) paperback quarto, it made me salivate obscenely for the next chapter.
Please do not change the font (size or type) until Rise of the Runelords.
Xastur - the Anonymous One
Please do not change the font (size or type) until Rise of the Runelords.
Xastur - the Anonymous One
Not even if the same amount of info (i.e. word count) remains? E.g. by utilizing the full border space and increasing the font size?
Yeah, nothing like getting typesetting templates set up and a magazine on the presses only to find out the chosen font for the body text can't support something odd-ball, like a ð or a ß
::shakes his head in shame::
You mean a þ or a ß? Just say so, man!Yeah, nothing like getting typesetting templates set up and a magazine on the presses only to find out the chosen font for the body text can't support something odd-ball, like a ð or a ß
::shakes his head in shame::
I was thinking more of an ð or ð. The sharp s is right, but the first character looks more like a thorn. Of course, I imagine this exchange illustrates the problems with entities/special characters perfectly.
That said, kudos on the UTF-8 support! I know some probably think it's a small thing, but I think it's awesome, and says a lot about the level of care and professionalsim that goes into the site and the publications.
I'll of course try to get a pagecount increase for Pathfinder 7, but it's unlikely that I can pull that off. In which case, we'll just need to streamline things a little bit more to get all that we want in there, in there.
I am able to read the printed Pathfinder, but even with my better than normal vision (according to my optometrist), I do have to focus to a greater degree than with most other printed material.
I would prefer a larger font and a pagecount increase, and I'm willing to pay an increased cost. In other words, I'd rather have an easier time reading, pay more, and have as much content as you can write, James!
Thank you again for all of your work!
I'm glad to hear that a more readable typeface will be in future issues.
It seems as though you're still happy to accept feedback, so I'll repeat what I've said before.
The font is disturbingly small. I noticed it immediately and was a little bummed about it. I'm now about halfway through the book and it doesn't bother me anymore, though I am just casually reading it. If I were prepping for a game or in the middle of a game, the font size might become an issue again.
However. It's not that big a deal to me, and one of the things that I appreciate most about Pathfinder is that sense of ... space. I can tell the way that the whole thing reads and is laid out that you were aware of your ability to fit more on a page. The adventure is wonderfully 'loose' and relaxed. There is time to give us extra background and color and there's less worry about making every single word adhere to high efficiency standards. In short Pathfinder is even more rich and rewarding to read than Dungeon. I mean, it's wonderful.
So while I am not excited about the font, I am VERY excited about Pathfinder and it's content. If it's a choice between one or the other, give me the content all the way. If you can find a happy medium which accommodates all that rich content: awesome! If not, no big deal. I'll even volunteer my time to the Customer Service department to explain why the font continues to be small. ;-)
Thanks James, Wes, and especially Sarah!
Creative Director
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The font is disturbingly small. I noticed it immediately and was a little bummed about it. I'm now about halfway through the book and it doesn't bother me anymore, though I am just casually reading it. If I were prepping for a game or in the middle of a game, the font size might become an issue again.
I had the same reaction; when I first started editing the first bits of laid-out text, I thought the font was too small. But after only a few pages I got used to it; I've had little problem editing the past 3 Pathfinders in this font (and my eyesight's FAR from the best). Editing is a more intense use of the words than prepping for a game (although not much more), so I assumed that if I and the rest of the editors here could edit it with ease, it'd be okay to read. And for the most part, I think, it is, but it's not a readable font for everyone. And like I said, there are other weird issues with the font as well that annoy me (weird spacing between numbers, uppercase J looks strange, 1 looks lonely, no bold + italic font, etc.). So the font'll be changing when we start our next adventure path, Curse of the Crimson Throne, in Pathfinder 7.
I can read it now, kind of, but in a few years there's no way I'll be able to make out what it says!Officemax and Staples sell these handy magnifying SHEETS. It's about 8x10 and you drop it on top of whatever it is and it magnifies it for you. Very useful and very portable for those with bad eyes.. me, I have glasses. :P
Excellent suggestion, and they aren't expensive either.
Officemax and Staples sell these handy magnifying SHEETS. It's about 8x10 and you drop it on top of whatever it is and it magnifies it for you.
At 200% magnification, you're reading 4" x 5" worth of text, then, before you need to move the sheet? That would make skimming for specific text somewhat painstaking. If someone can provide a firsthand description of how easy it is to actually run the adventure, in actual game play, using that kind of a magic sheet, I'll be happy to listen. Until then, as far as I know it wouldn't help at all. Remember, the point isn't that the text is impossible to read; only that it makes the product more difficult to use during game play.
Officemax and Staples sell these handy magnifying SHEETS. It's about 8x10 and you drop it on top of whatever it is and it magnifies it for you.
At 200% magnification, you're reading 4" x 5" worth of text, then, before you need to move the sheet? That would make skimming for specific text somewhat painstaking, I would think. If someone can provide a firsthand description of how easy it is to actually run the adventure, in actual game play, using that kind of a magic sheet, I'll be happy to listen. Until then, as far as I know it wouldn't help at all. Remember, the point isn't that the text is impossible to read; only that it makes the product more difficult to use during game play.
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And like I said, there are other weird issues with the font as well that annoy me (weird spacing between numbers, uppercase J looks strange, 1 looks lonely, no bold + italic font, etc.).
I noticed the text was smallish, but I didn't find it annoying or (perhaps more importantly) that it hampered the book's utility in any way. Now the handwriting font, OMFG horrible! I read that was fixed already, though!
Now I'll probably go back and re-read it and notice all the font quirks. It'll be like watching a movie on TV and having somebody point out a fingerprint smudge or spot on the screen: painfully obvious now that it has been pointed out. :/
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I was one of the first to respond that the font was uncomfortable to read when the Players Guide PDF first became available. I had printed that out on the office black and white lazer printer, and although a good quality printer, I did have a hard time reading the Players Guide.
However, I thought I'd hold off further comment until I received the published version in my hands, as I had hoped that maybe the quality of the published version might be sharper and more readable than a copy printed on office copy paper in black and white. And today I finally received the Pathfinder, the Players Guide and Seven Swords of Sin (Australian subscriber here).
For the most part, I am encouraged that the published version is sharper and a little easier on the eye than the black and white printed copy. It's still a little uneasy, but better than I had hoped after reading the black and white copy.
Something else I noticed, is when comparing Pathfinder side-by-side with Seven Swords of Sin, is that they both contain the same number of lines per page, but the font in Seven Swords of Sin is larger and much easier to read. This makes me think that the white-space between lines in Pathfinder is unnecessarily generous - it should be in proportion with the font-size. What you lose by increasing the font-size, could be compensated for by reducing line-height to achieve more lines per page.
Personally, I still prefer a slight increase in font-size - it probably doesn't need to be all that much to make a difference - though, I do feel a little easier now having the physical product in my hands. I realise you're already committed to re-assessing the font in future adventure paths, which is very much appreciated, but thought this feedback might be helpful.
Cheers.
Just wanted to register another vote in favor of the smaller font size. It was one of the very first things I noticed when I got my copy of Pathfinder #1 this weekend. It gave me the feeling that I was getting greater value and more content for my money.
It gave me the feeling that I was getting greater value and more content for my money.
Yeah... but if you aren't getting more content, then what's the point?
And, maybe it's just me that can't see it, how does a smaller font with a wide, unutilized margins give you the feeling that it's a greater value?|
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The font is disturbingly small. I noticed it immediately and was a little bummed about it. I'm now about halfway through the book and it doesn't bother me anymore, though I am just casually reading it. If I were prepping for a game or in the middle of a game, the font size might become an issue again.
However. It's not that big a deal to me, and one of the things that I appreciate most about Pathfinder is that sense of ... space. I can tell the way that the whole thing reads and is laid out that you were aware of your ability to fit more on a page. The adventure is wonderfully 'loose' and relaxed. There is time to give us extra background and color and there's less worry about making every single word adhere to high efficiency standards. In short Pathfinder is even more rich and rewarding to read than Dungeon. I mean, it's wonderful.
It really is. I started noticing that in terms of the amount of background material that the players will probably never discover. The Kaijitsu family history? An escaped hellcat? That's all DM gravy, and a lot of fun to read.
But I was a bit put off by the font size. I appreciate packing in the content, and normally I'm a fan of tight text, but this was a little cramped even for me. I wouldn't mind the main body text being slightly larger.
With apologies to those that want a larger font size, I vote for more content.
Agreed.. I wear glasses and it's no chore for me to read mine.
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James, Eric and team - first congrats on a glorious first issue. It's an awesome product.
Alas - I find myself in the 'increase the font size' camp. Five years ago this wouldn't have been an issue, but after spending 20 minutes with Pathfinder, I started experiencing strain on my getting older eyes.
I love Paizo - I love your products, and everything you stand for in the gaming industry. I don't every want to ever associate your products with pain, only pleasure.
A certain amount of my business is writing brochures and annual reports - my experience has been that whenever a significant portion of the reading audience is over 40 years of age, font size begins to become an important consideration.
Most of us who started D&D during the 1e/early 2e days are now entering our 40s (or are already there) - and many of us ol' grognards seem to be some of Paizo's most loyal customers. At this point, we're probably gamers for life. While it's essential to bring new blood into the game, we 1st generation D&Ders (with disposable income we didn't have before) will remain an important secondary market for a long time - so the font issue is likely to become more important as the gaming population ages.
There are also two other reasons I would recommend increasing the font size.
First, ease of use. Modules are really multi-function documents. They not only provide reading entertainment - they are essentially 'facilitation guides' for gaming sessions. When font size gets too small, functionality from a facilitation perspective starts to suffer. In addition, DMs aren't always in situations where they are in control of the lighting situation (if they are judging at a friend's house, or a poorly lit retail space), which can increase eye strain. And using a magnifying glass while judging isn't really a practical solution.
Second, the font size could be a barrier to purchase in certain retail spaces. Two of the local gaming stores in my area have less than ideal lighting - in this situation, I don't think the font size allows Pathfinder to shine if people have to strain to read the text.
I certainly understand your challenge. When you're dealing with a fixed page count, and it comes down to quantity of content, font size and layout, you usually only get to pick two. In this case, I really do think font size is important.
Thankfully, I'm a subscriber. When I judge Pathfinder, I will use the PDF. I'll try pumping up its size for printing, and run the game out of a binder.
I've also become more accustom to the font size as I read, but I know it will be a problem at the game table as the light is lower there.
What I really have trouble with is the font/text on the maps. Specifically the Sandpoint map. Even wearing glasses and holding it 6" from a light bulb, I still can't tell what it says sometimes. I'm often just guessing at the streetnames. And the 3's and 5's on all the maps are indistinguishable. Please take a look at this as I need to be able to quickly read the maps at the game table.
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my experience has been that whenever a significant portion of the reading audience is over 40 years of age, font size begins to become an important consideration.
I'm a web developer, and I find the same issue.
Web is a young industry. I just turned 41, but everyone else in the business are in their 20s, early 30s. The designers, in particular, are all 19-21yo, and for the longest time, it was a real fight convincing them the font-size in their designs are too small.
Our designers would argue "the text is plenty big enough, we have no problems reading it, small type looks cool, we can fit more content into the available space". And because we're a company that prides itself on design, the font would stay, until days before taking a site live, and the CEO of the client company sees it for the first time and can't read the text, and we have to go back and change all the fonts. Sound familiar?
It's not as much a problem nowadays, because a) companies are becoming increasingly aware of the needs of an aging customer base; b) developers are coding sites with scalable fonts, instead of fixed-sized fonts; c) recent browsers make it easy to scale font-sizes (Ctrl-mousewheel or Ctrl-+)
I routinely bump up the font-size of any site I visit, rarely do I read a website at it's standard font-size. However, you can't do that with a printed publication.
Most young people just don't get it, and who can blame them? they have the eyes of an eagle. Give them another 20 years, though, and they'll start to realise. Hit 40, and glasses or not, text just needs to be a little larger to read comfortably.
I had the same reaction; when I first started editing the first bits of laid-out text, I thought the font was too small. But after only a few pages I got used to it;
First, ease of use. Modules are really multi-function documents. They not only provide reading entertainment - they are essentially 'facilitation guides' for gaming sessions.
I've also become more accustom to the font size as I read, but I know it will be a problem at the game table as the light is lower there.
Now that I'm reading through Pathfinder like a novel, I am getting used to it. As mentioned previously, the published product does seems sharper than a printed PDF. However, I suspect font-size may still be an issue, as others have mentioned, when looking up things quickly during a game session, though I guess I'll have to wait until I actually run a Pathfinder session to find out.
To Paizo's credit, though, while reading Sandpoint (which is amazing!) I have found bolding character names makes it very easy to flip back to a character when you find him/her mentioned elsewhere, and I'm sure there are many other good examples of organisation and layout throughout Pathfinder.
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Thankfully, I'm a subscriber. When I judge Pathfinder, I will use the PDF. I'll try pumping up its size for printing, and run the game out of a binder.
I've noticed when trying to extract the text from the pdf, there are a lot of places where the text has been altered to make the layout better. This mostly means extra spaces in places. Okay, my question: do you know of any tools that will automatically clean up the text in this case? going through 100 pages of double column text and doing spell check corrections doesn't sound "fun" to me. :D I ask because you sound like you've done this sort of thing before.
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Thankfully, I'm a subscriber. When I judge Pathfinder, I will use the PDF. I'll try pumping up its size for printing, and run the game out of a binder.I've noticed when trying to extract the text from the pdf, there are a lot of places where the text has been altered to make the layout better. This mostly means extra spaces in places. Okay, my question: do you know of any tools that will automatically clean up the text in this case? going through 100 pages of double column text and doing spell check corrections doesn't sound "fun" to me. :D I ask because you sound like you've done this sort of thing before.
I'm certainly no expert (I'm almost a Luddite - I generally succeed through trial and error), and it is turning out to be harder than I expected.
I typically scan in, or take maps from PDFs and blow them up to create maps for my gaming sessions. I use Photoshop Elements to do this. However, the Pathfinder PDF seems to be password protected, so I haven't found a way to make that work(I am wondering if I will need to scan in maps to blow them up on my printer).
I have two printers - a Samsung B&W laser printer (which is cheaper to operate) and a Canon colour injet (which eats money and toner). I was unable to figure out how to expand the text on my Samsung, but I was successful with the Canon.
I found that by increasing the size by 8%, I was able to keep all the text on the page (while losing page numbers). I lose the bottom and right most margins when I do so, but keep all the text. I haven't figured out how to centre the page - if so I could expand the text even more.
For the record, that 8% increase in size make a huge difference for me - it goes from being a headache inducing font size to very managable.
I'm certainly no expert (I'm almost a Luddite - I generally succeed through trial and error), and it is turning out to be harder than I expected.
I typically scan in, or take maps from PDFs and blow them up to create maps for my gaming sessions. I use Photoshop Elements to do this. However, the Pathfinder PDF seems to be password protected, so I haven't found a way to make that work(I am wondering if I will need to scan in maps to blow them up on my printer).
I had no problems copying the images and maps from the pdf files... no password protection for that as far as I can see. What pdf-reader do you use?
I have two printers - a Samsung B&W laser printer (which is cheaper to operate) and a Canon colour injet (which eats money and toner). I was unable to figure out how to expand the text on my Samsung, but I was successful with the Canon.
I found that by increasing the size by 8%, I was able to keep all the text on the page (while losing page numbers). I lose the bottom and right most margins when I do so, but keep all the text. I haven't figured out how to centre the page - if so I could expand the text even more.
The percentage at which you print shouldn't have anything to do with the printer in question, but rather the printing interface of the program you print from.
Make sure that you don't have any "fit to page" or similar things checked. Also, there should be a "center image" option available (I've found both options in both Adobe Reader 7.0.9 and Adobe Photoshop CS2 - chances are that Photoshop Elements have them too).
Just chipping in with my 2 cents here, (meh, it's what I do).
I have just received & started reading my #1 (damaged, but still readable) and I did think that the font was small. But the biggest problem that I had was the glare off the page. Is it possible that the font could even stay the same if the page was dulled down? I like the look of the glossy paper, but it does make the words a pain to see.
The maps are DEFinitely a problem, I don't know what to tell you to do about it, but I do hope you come up with something,... compared to the rest of the book,...just,...ouch. (Note: I like the art, I just cant READ it!)
Larger font? that would help me personally, (FYI-glasses since H.S., continued degrading of eyesight every1-2 years, now 40+) But I am also solidly in the "keep the content!" camp. I admit to being a little dissapointed at the apparant thinness of the book when first opened, but was pleasantly surprised at how much was sqeezed in for us to enjoy! (Yes , I downloaded and flipped thru the PDF, but have resisted the urge to actually READ it, as I wanted my first perusal of the book to be in my hand, in my comfy chair, under a good light. I'm an old-fashioned reader!)
Utilize more of the margine space? Again, possible, but please be careful! I still have bad memories of a couple of issues of Dragon that had unreadable articles because the edge of the article was IN the binding! (If I remember right, you guys fixed that real quick too!)
Overall first impression (having only read the first few pages?) Love the LOOK of the book, I think I like the layout. And the content? So crunchy! And yet so many tasty fluffy bits to enjoy!
I will keep reading and judge your future adjustments to the product as you make them. I can say that even if I decide to cancel my subscription, it would be a monetary descision, and that if another Pathfinder plotline came out that I liked, I would still find a way to buy it.
In short, keep up the good work, and thank you for trying to keep improving your product.
And Sarah? You go Wonder Woman!
-Rags
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Chief Technical Officer
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I've noticed when trying to extract the text from the pdf, there are a lot of places where the text has been altered to make the layout better. This mostly means extra spaces in places. Okay, my question: do you know of any tools that will automatically clean up the text in this case? going through 100 pages of double column text and doing spell check corrections doesn't sound "fun" to me. :D I ask because you sound like you've done this sort of thing before.
You should be able to search-and-replace excess spaces out of a text document in a few seconds—just search for double spaces and replace with a single space, then repeat until no more are found.
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Chief Technical Officer
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I typically scan in, or take maps from PDFs and blow them up to create maps for my gaming sessions. I use Photoshop Elements to do this. However, the Pathfinder PDF seems to be password protected, so I haven't found a way to make that work(I am wondering if I will need to scan in maps to blow them up on my printer).
You should be able to easily select and copy any non-full-page maps. Adobe Reader thinks that full-page maps are page backgrounds, though; you have to ctrl-click (Windows) or option-click (Mac OS) to select those.
PLEASE do something as soon as possible. A font change this early in Pathfinder's run will not be a big deal and I'll guarantee that there are plenty of people in stores taking Pathfinder off the shelf, looking at a few pages, and then putting it right back while rubbing their eyes.I'm with Bavix; it's nasty. I *can* read it, but it's not the pleasant experience it should be. I notice the difficulty way too much, and I've found it more difficult to get through the issue than I expected, despite the great content.
I spend all day staring at screens and papers. The last thing I need is a small, difficult font taunting me in my off hours.
I usually hate "me too" posts, but...
Me too. I have poor vision (even with corrective lenses, I cannot get to 20/20 vision); I spend all day staring at a computer screen (computer programmer and freelance writer). I'm finding Pathfinder #1 very difficult to read, which is definitely distracting from my enjoyment of it.
I'm only jumping in with the "me too" because I think this is one of those rare times when it's useful.
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You should be able to search-and-replace excess spaces out of a text document in a few seconds—just search for double spaces and replace with a single space, then repeat until no more are found.
It's mostly the words that have extra spaces placed between some of their letters for what I'm guessing are layout reasons. I don't know of a way around that other than using some OCR piece. I was mostly curious if there was a technical way to do this. I haven't really tried converting the whole shebang so it's mostly a thought experiment at this point.
I don't see any problem with the font size...if it's too small on your monitor, just zoom in or expand it across the screen. Looks great to me.
It's not too small on my monitor. It's too small in my book. ;)
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It's mostly the words that have extra spaces placed between some of their letters for what I'm guessing are layout reasons.That sounds.. odd. Can you provide an example of this, with a page number?
Of course, I try it on another computer and it works fine. It may have been an issue with OpenOffice. Both Adobe Reader 7 and PDF-XChange Viewer -> ms word 2k3 worked fine. I think I'm using adobe reader 8 and openoffice 2.0X at home. I will try it again there and figure out what might be happening.
....it's not a readable font for everyone. And like I said, there are other weird issues with the font as well that annoy me (weird spacing between numbers, uppercase J looks strange, 1 looks lonely, no bold + italic font, etc.). So the font'll be changing when we start our next adventure path, Curse of the Crimson Throne, in Pathfinder 7.
James,
I've finally received Pathfinder 7 (and 8), and I'd just like to say that the font is great, and much easier on the eyes. Thanks!
*deep inhale* Mmmm I love the smell of threadomancy in the morning!
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Creative Director
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....it's not a readable font for everyone. And like I said, there are other weird issues with the font as well that annoy me (weird spacing between numbers, uppercase J looks strange, 1 looks lonely, no bold + italic font, etc.). So the font'll be changing when we start our next adventure path, Curse of the Crimson Throne, in Pathfinder 7.James,
I've finally received Pathfinder 7 (and 8), and I'd just like to say that the font is great, and much easier on the eyes. Thanks!
Cool! And again... it wasn't a font size issue... it was a font issue. The font we're using in Curse of the Crimson Throne is run a 8.5. The font for Runelords was run at 9, so it was actually at a LARGER font size.
DOWN WITH FONTS!!! Beam the information direction into our heads!!!
I do think the font size puts a strain on the eye. It's not just the size, but the combo of the font size and any non-solid non-white background.
I would be in favor of making the backgrounds less splashy and the text more readable, but then it would appear more boring.
Looking at Pathfinder #5, the page background or watermark isn't out of hand by any means, but it is non-solid.
If you have small text, I favor straight white backgrounds. But then it is harder to blend things artistically.
I do think the font size puts a strain on the eye. It's not just the size, but the combo of the font size and any non-solid non-white background....
Looking at Pathfinder #5, the page background or watermark isn't out of hand by any means, but it is non-solid.If you have small text, I favor straight white backgrounds. But then it is harder to blend things artistically.
Have you looked at Pathfinder #7? The font is worlds better in the second AP than it was in the first.