hehe kruelaid; am sorta Scandinavian myself so know what you mean; hehe i happen to know the whole monarchy system of government was just a big mistake in development as a quick response to the burst in population in Scandavavia that brought on a series of raids against the helpless people of Europe; so, basically the whole fantasy monarchy thing was due to my peeps; do we get much recognition; no, after all, peeps probably still think we are all screaming barbarians, hehe people thing pretty much the only thing coming out of Scandinavia is porn, weird cars, and cell phones.
hmm we seem to be getting off topic; but I always wondered why there is so much import from Japan in so many fantasy games as most people know the mythologies and faire tales of Europe and America, but I doubt most of us could name or tell five Japanese faire tales. This whole naming this is kinda out there too; I am sure we all realize that everybodies name on the planet means something; ie if your name is Edward you name means "guardian" and so on; if your name is Sayuri, well, that means something too, but I have no idea and doubt most of us could come up with a good Oriental name and understand it without doing some research first. When I read the Sandpoint stuff, seemed the place was populated by Italians and Japanese hehe made me think Iron Chef Sandpoint.
When I read the Sandpoint stuff, seemed the place was populated by Italians and Japanese hehe made me think Iron Chef Sandpoint.
lol
So true, actually I'm just reading it now.
And about the names thing, the more I think about it, the more it seems to me that a lot more westerners know what their name means than are being accounted for here because their parents tell them or they look it up in a dictionary. The difference between us and say, Chinese, is that our names come from ancient spellings, foreign or dead languages, whereas a lot (but not all) Chinese name are used in the language still. Names like Christian, Moon-unit(hehe) and Smith would be exceptions to the ancient or dead rule, but there are always exceptions, aren't there.
pretty much the only thing coming out of Scandinavia is porn, weird cars, and cell phones.
Isn't Sweden like #1 in the world for aerospace technology? And Norway was recently rated best place on earth to live in terms of everything except snow accumulation. Or maybe these are secrets I'm not allowed to be telling? (Please don't send any viking ninjas after me!)
And about the names thing, the more I think about it, the more it seems to me that a lot more westerners know what their name means than are being accounted for here because their parents tell them or they look it up in a dictionary. The difference between us and say, Chinese, is that our names come from ancient spellings, foreign or dead languages, whereas a lot (but not all) Chinese name are used in the language still. Names like Christian, Moon-unit(hehe) and Smith would be exceptions to the ancient or dead rule, but there are always exceptions, aren't there.
I guess surnames are typically easier to understand (Johnson might be, gee, John's son?) even if not always relevant for the last 100 years...first names are a bit more difficult except for Faith, Hope, Charity etc. thing, many coming from Bible or Latin or old Germanic or such...
In Finnish there is plenty of those common European names, usually bit changed to fit the language better (and thus some of them might be tad hard to recognize), but there is also bunch of names which have a meaning. Many women carry names which for Finns sound completely normal but when translated to English become funnily hippie-y, like Tuuli (Wind), Meri (Sea), Marja (Berry), Rauha (Peace), Pilvi (Cloud)...Faith (Usko) and Hope (Toivo) are also in use, but those are men's names. As are Armas (Beloved), Aarre (Treasure), Jalo (Valiant), Otso (Bear)...
Just throwing suggestions if someone feels like exploiting these (and isn't Aarre just a perfect pirate name or what?)
I must say I am rather limited when it comes to knowledge about Latvian culture and mythology...they have very checkered and colourful history, and people have been commenting that the country is just full of old castles, but for mythology I draw a blank.
When I read the Sandpoint stuff, seemed the place was populated by Italians and Japanese hehe made me think Iron Chef Sandpoint.lol
So true, actually I'm just reading it now.
And about the names thing, the more I think about it, the more it seems to me that a lot more westerners know what their name means than are being accounted for here because their parents tell them or they look it up in a dictionary. The difference between us and say, Chinese, is that our names come from ancient spellings, foreign or dead languages, whereas a lot (but not all) Chinese name are used in the language still. Names like Christian, Moon-unit(hehe) and Smith would be exceptions to the ancient or dead rule, but there are always exceptions, aren't there.
Actually - Chinese choose names for their children very carefully, taking meaning into account above all things, not sounds. Most Americans I know choose the name becasue they like the sound, or it is tradition in the family and meaning comes last if at all. To Chinese names mean a lot and are approched much differently than they are here in the west.
Actually - Chinese choose names for their children very carefully, taking meaning into account above all things, not sounds. Most Americans I know choose the name becasue they like the sound, or it is tradition in the family and meaning comes last if at all. To Chinese names mean a lot and are approched much differently than they are here in the west.
True, in west the sound of the name is usually more important, though the names also tell a good deal about the family...I mentioned Finnish surnames often referring to places, though also patronyms (John's son etc) and occupation descriptions (Smith, Thatcher etc) are common (and in old times those occupations and crafts often went from father to son, so they were not just nicknames). And first names are quite common to go from generation to generation, giving your child your own name or name of your favorite grandmother...
Bit more about old concepts of names among Finns (and from what I have heard, this worked also for many Uralic people, and also some Native Americans etc...generally people favoring hunting/gathering) when a new baby was born, its father took it and named it. If there was no father evident, child had no name, which meant it had no place in society, which meant it had no soul and was not real human being. In this case it was usually abandoned to die on its own. Baby which received a name (=place in society=soul) was taken care of as well as possible.
This thought is actually referred in final poem of Kalevala, where virgin Marjatta becomes pregnant while still virgin, and gives birth to a boy child (yes, it's a reference to Virgin Mary and Jesus). Väinämöinen rules that as the child has no father, it must be taken to swamp to die...however, now the miraculous newborn boy starts talking and defending himself, thus making it clear that he actually is a real human being, so fate Väinämöinen had declared would be murder (the boy also accuses Väinämöinen of several past sins, including the fact that he himself was fatherless child yet nobody killed him then).
...Most Americans I know choose the name becasue they like the sound, or it is tradition in the family and meaning comes last if at all...
Mostly true. But you should go ask a Christian couple why they name their children Grace, or Daniel, Joshua, or Faith. In these cases you will see you are quite wrong.
...Chinese choose names for their children very carefully, taking meaning into account above all things, not sounds...
I am told this is true from my Chinese friends here in Shandong. I am also told by some that sounds and family tradition DO take a strong secondary importance to meaning, and some have said that family tradition is very important in their family. Perhaps not all Chinese people are of the same mind, Lex.
In support of what you said, however, that's clearly why Chinese find westerner's Chinese names odd--because they are often made to imitate the sounds of the western name and the meanings are usually 'cute' or 'amusing'.
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While I was generally happy with the first issue of Rise of the Runelords, one thing seriously (seriously) irked me. The "Japanese" names.
While I'm sure "Ameiko", "Tsuto", and "Kaijitsu" sound 'Oriental' and 'Japanese' enough to satisfy most people that they are, in fact, real names, I speak Japanese and was half-horrified, half-disappointed to find the lack of effort that had gone into these names. None of them are real Japanese names; none of them mean anything, aside from sounding vaguely 'Oriental', as I've said.
What makes this all the more saddening is that there are plenty of real, cool, usable Japanese names, but the research was not done to incorporate them into Pathfinder. I understand, of course, that during the production of the first issue a number of other things (Dragon, Dungeon, Gamemastery, Gencon prep) were being undertaken and that perhaps not as much time was available for research as was necessary, but these names were for me a taint on an otherwise spotless presentation.
I would like to ask that in the future, Japanese names be researched before use (you can do so easily enough on the internet) so that they are proper, actual names. I'm perfectly willing to consult and/or create names if you were looking for a name with a specific meaning or sound, and could give you input on things like what names are peasant names and what names a lord or noble would be more likely to have.
Ummmm, I haven't read the rest of this thread ('cause it's 6 pages and I'm a lazy bum) so I don't know if anyone else has posted this, but this is a "Fantasy" setting. The names don't have to be real. Have you ever heard of anyone named Elminster or Mordenkainen, or any number of other "Fantasy" names that were simply made up.
They are made up names from a made up world!
Hi all,
Interesting discussion. I don't agree with the premise that made up 'asian' names need to be any more authentic (or linguistically correct) than made up 'european' names (notice the quotes?).
I speak Chinese and though Mr. Logue no doubt put some thinking into 'Tian Xia' I would have been just as happy if he had used completely nonsensical 'Chinese-sounding' syllables.
More happy, possibly. At least if they were made up I wouldn't have to hear people slaughtering real Chinese syllables :) or feel any need to try to correct them.
Just joking, of course. I wouldn't actually correct anybody on their pronunciation of 'Chinese-sounding' names in a fantasy milieu - BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT CHINESE!!!!
Heh. Sorry. Failed my will save at the last minute there. ;)
M
Actually - Chinese choose names for their children very carefully, taking meaning into account above all things, not sounds. Most Americans I know choose the name becasue they like the sound, or it is tradition in the family and meaning comes last if at all. To Chinese names mean a lot and are approched much differently than they are here in the west.
Yes, yes. I imagine the Deng "little bottles" XiaoPing would agree with you wholeheartedly. ;)
M
Actually - Chinese choose names for their children very carefully, taking meaning into account above all things, not sounds. Most Americans I know choose the name becasue they like the sound, or it is tradition in the family and meaning comes last if at all. To Chinese names mean a lot and are approched much differently than they are here in the west.Yes, yes. I imagine the Deng "little bottles" XiaoPing would agree with you wholeheartedly. ;)
M
Do you know the connotation and cultural relevance behind such a name?
His name is not actually "little bottles" - more like "small peace". That was used mockingly by those that weren't very happy about his crackdown at Tiananmen (well, maybe before too, but I don't know about that). The characters for "little bottles" sounds like his name so it was a Chinese play on words. That's why I jokingly mentioned it - sounds vs. meaning. Nevermind. It wasn't a very good joke anyway. :)
M
I just want to say this is an awesome thread. It is great to see people really looking at the mechanics of various languages. And I for one really appreciate the name generator that the OP gave for us.
His name is not actually "little bottles" - more like "small peace". That was used mockingly by those that weren't very happy about his crackdown at Tiananmen (well, maybe before too, but I don't know about that). The characters for "little bottles" sounds like his name so it was a Chinese play on words. That's why I jokingly mentioned it - sounds vs. meaning. Nevermind. It wasn't a very good joke anyway. :)
M
I was going to point this out if you did not. Many times we give names as insult. I believe all cultures do this, I'm sorry if I did not catch you're joke.
I just want to say this is an awesome thread. It is great to see people really looking at the mechanics of various languages. And I for one really appreciate the name generator that the OP gave for us.
I'm glad you took it in the spirit in which it was intended. :)
Wow, for a moment, I thought I was on the WotC boards. (This sorta spunk doesn't usually fly over here!) However, seeing Nick's warm, cherubish face....I knew everything would be alright.
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Wow, for a moment, I thought I was on the WotC boards. (This sorta spunk doesn't usually fly over here!) However, seeing Nick's warm, cherubish face....I knew everything would be alright.
First off, that statement's a tad bit creepy.
Second, usually, the viciousness only lasts for maybe two pages tops before it degenerates into discussions about Sound ninja kung fu, or whatever. We're pretty laid back, donchaknow.
I hate to bring back a dead horse, but I have to ask. I am a new subscriber and not yet through reading everything.
I noticed what I will sadly say as "the odd names" in the PDF and had some issues with pronunciation. Knowing so little beyond my humble home I wondered what the basis was for them, and more importantly why does everyone have to use names I can't say! Keep in mind, in good jest, this is coming from my pov, I am sure other counties ask the same of mine.
Anyway, my question is, why are the names Japanese-esq? Did I miss something somewhere to tell me this was based in an Orient style world?
I'm actually from Minkai, and a native speaker, and I can assure you the name are all traditional and historically revered. Though one of them translates to bladder pounder. That one... not so much.
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Now, does GH lore ever tell what is Mordenka?
Just as an aside - and I have no idea if Gary Gygax ever confirmed this - the english wikipedia states that Mordenkainen is a combinationen of the jewish name Mordecai and the finnish Hero Lemminkainen.
It took me more than an hour to read through this thread but it was worth it! It was a pleasure to find myself thinking about own beliefs and assumptions and challenge them, again, so thanks everybody!
Harshly offtopic but... i happened to find a site containing The Kalevala, the national epic of the Finns so if any of you is interested in one more tale go check it out. The whole site is really huge and one could spend weeks there (for example slightly less offtopic: Roma Folklore)
The example of Deng Xiaoping reminds us that the Chinese do make lots of puns out of names. The demonstrators in 1989 smashed bottles on the square, symbolically attacking Deng Xiaoping. (Xiaoping as written means "little peace," but sounds the same as "little bottle.") Of course those of us who have unusual names or names that unfortunately sound close to dirty or insulting words know all about this phenomenon in English, from being teased at school.
In support of what you said, however, that's clearly why Chinese find westerner's Chinese names odd--because they are often made to imitate the sounds of the western name and the meanings are usually 'cute' or 'amusing'.
It's only fair, though: I've known countless immigrants from Chinese backgrounds in Australia, and I'd say a good half of them have been given comically archaic "English" names by their parents. Enoch, for example.
After reading volume 1 of pathfinder, I just want to say that names like tsuto and kaijutsu do evoke images of japanese folk and I hope this deeply offends any pro japanese language fanatics reading this!
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While I was generally happy with the first issue of Rise of the Runelords, one thing seriously (seriously) irked me. The "Japanese" names.
While I'm sure "Ameiko", "Tsuto", and "Kaijitsu" sound 'Oriental' and 'Japanese' enough to satisfy most people that they are, in fact, real names, I speak Japanese and was half-horrified, half-disappointed to find the lack of effort that had gone into these names. None of them are real Japanese names; none of them mean anything, aside from sounding vaguely 'Oriental', as I've said.
What makes this all the more saddening is that there are plenty of real, cool, usable Japanese names, but the research was not done to incorporate them into Pathfinder. I understand, of course, that during the production of the first issue a number of other things (Dragon, Dungeon, Gamemastery, Gencon prep) were being undertaken and that perhaps not as much time was available for research as was necessary, but these names were for me a taint on an otherwise spotless presentation.
I would like to ask that in the future, Japanese names be researched before use (you can do so easily enough on the internet) so that they are proper, actual names. I'm perfectly willing to consult and/or create names if you were looking for a name with a specific meaning or sound, and could give you input on things like what names are peasant names and what names a lord or noble would be more likely to have.
I think this is just one more reason not to use anything Japanese-related in any future modules. I know that the hobby needs variety to grow, but do we really want our hobby going in the direction of the 10-year-old Japanimation "specialist" and the 30-something overbearing know-it-alls?
In support of what you said, however, that's clearly why Chinese find westerner's Chinese names odd--because they are often made to imitate the sounds of the western name and the meanings are usually 'cute' or 'amusing'.It's only fair, though: I've known countless immigrants from Chinese backgrounds in Australia, and I'd say a good half of them have been given comically archaic "English" names by their parents. Enoch, for example.
Heh. one of my mates in high school moved from Hong Kong with his family, and his parents (who spoke very little English) pretty much left it up to him and his brothers to choose their names when they went to school. He and his older brother just used variations of their cantonese names (their surname was Shing so my friend called himself Shing Ha). His oldest brother however chose to be called Eddie Shing. They all learned playground English so used to curse horribly all the time.
I'll never forget one day hanging out at Shing's place after school. His brother Eddie was flourishing a letter angrily and saying "Edward Shing? Who the f*%&k is Edward Shing?"
Shing says: "Uh... that's you Eddie. Eddie is short for Edward."
Eddie paused, looking confused, then screamed out "F$#@K!!" and stormed from the room.
Not relevant really but funny story.
I'm actually from Minkai, and a native speaker, and I can assure you the name are all traditional and historically revered. Though one of them translates to bladder pounder. That one... not so much.
So, are you going to provide us with the Minkai alphabet so we can put this thread to bed?
Because Minkai names don't have to make sense in Kanji, just the Minkai alphabet...
Please don't tell me that you're illiterate (in Minkai).
As they say in Minkai:
Hubu wakai na, doobie nosho bo
I'm sure The Jade will be happy to translate that for you.
I'm actually from Minkai, and a native speaker, and I can assure you the name are all traditional and historically revered. Though one of them translates to bladder pounder. That one... not so much.So, are you going to provide us with the Minkai alphabet so we can put this thread to bed?
Because Minkai names don't have to make sense in Kanji, just the Minkai alphabet...
Please don't tell me that you're illiterate (in Minkai).
I certainly am not illiterate in Minkai, though I am apparently illiterate in Indianapolis as the untended lavoratory smell did have me seeing letters get all dancey 'pon the printed page.
The original alphabet of Minkai is a series of sexy ideograms that I can't post here but I could upload my drawings to a photo site and link you.
For fifty dollars, that is.
As they say in Minkai:
Hubu wakai na, doobie nosho bo
I'm sure The Jade will be happy to translate that for you.
Yes, as we commonly say in Minkai, "Make love to your surfboard and the marijauna cigarette will be a no show"
Think on it for exactly two minutes and the layers of the onion will peel back, revealing an enlightening core that doesn't smell or make you cry. We are a deep and unsmelly people.
hehe ok; we will admit to lumber as an industry; but the rest is secret so....
hmm is curious that some people think that Westerners dont pick their childrens names very carefully. Having kids myself and lots of friends with kids and having gone through the naming thing and haveing watched a lot of my friends go through the naming thing, I am certain that it is very intensive for most people; only slightly less so is them picking their XP name, but then I have seen players sweat for weeks over picking character names so what does that say.
Maybe due to my ancestory I am not a typical westerner - my kids have their names for very specific reasons and when each was born I held them up and bestowed their name upon them and introduced them to God, Their Guardian Angel, and thier family by name sealing it to them forever and I know what every part of my 5 part name means and why, but then if you saw the 13th warrior movie you saw the part of the death ley where are family and ancestory back to the beginning denote who and what you are in place and time -I have wonderered how much basis in fact this has, but lol and even my Avatar has meaning which I am pretty sure I included in my profile, though very, very few people know my full name. Interesting that D&D has now put words of power and naming as power into the game as much more pervasive than ever before.
of course, I have never made love to a surfboard and I know almost nothing about MJ cigarettes so without an experience base I have no idea what the wonderful Jade is refering to.
pretty much the only thing coming out of Scandinavia is porn, weird cars, and cell phones.Isn't Sweden like #1 in the world for aerospace technology? And Norway was recently rated best place on earth to live in terms of everything except snow accumulation. Or maybe these are secrets I'm not allowed to be telling? (Please don't send any viking ninjas after me!)
sigh, I could read this sort of stuff all day, thanks for the Kalevala update; I tried to read it in English, but I am having a hard, hard time; I just don't know the rhythm sot it doesnt flow well; could be the translation.
Actually - Chinese choose names for their children very carefully, taking meaning into account above all things, not sounds. Most Americans I know choose the name becasue they like the sound, or it is tradition in the family and meaning comes last if at all. To Chinese names mean a lot and are approched much differently than they are here in the west.True, in west the sound of the name is usually more important, though the names also tell a good deal about the family...I mentioned Finnish surnames often referring to places, though also patronyms (John's son etc) and occupation descriptions (Smith, Thatcher etc) are common (and in old times those occupations and crafts often went from father to son, so they were not just nicknames). And first names are quite common to go from generation to generation, giving your child your own name or name of your favorite grandmother...
Bit more about old concepts of names among Finns (and from what I have heard, this worked also for many Uralic people, and also some Native Americans etc...generally people favoring hunting/gathering) when a new baby was born, its father took it and named it. If there was no father evident, child had no name, which meant it had no place in society, which meant it had no soul and was not real human being. In this case it was usually abandoned to die on its own. Baby which received a name (=place in society=soul) was taken care of as well as possible.
This thought is actually referred in final poem of Kalevala, where virgin Marjatta becomes pregnant while still virgin, and gives birth to a boy child (yes, it's a reference to Virgin Mary and Jesus). Väinämöinen rules that as the child has no father, it must be taken to swamp to die...however, now the miraculous newborn boy starts talking and defending himself, thus making it clear that he actually is a real human being, so fate Väinämöinen had declared would be murder (the boy also accuses Väinämöinen of several past sins, including the fact that he himself...
sigh, I could read this sort of stuff all day, thanks for the Kalevala update; I tried to read it in English, but I am having a hard, hard time; I just don't know the rhythm sot it doesnt flow well; could be the translation.
I checked the link given above and from what I saw the text is not particularly easy to read...they had kept the rhythm of the original, trochaic tetrametre which is natural metre in Finnish but not in English (you with those iambic pentameters).
The ease of reading of the Finnish version varies a lot, the poems have been sung by several different people resulting that some of the passages are flowing really well, and some are really hard for modern reader...translations smooth the heterogenity of the original text but as is obvious it is a challenge. Probably someone should make a prose translation of just the stories...
The original alphabet of Minkai is a series of sexy ideograms that I can't post here but I could upload my drawings to a photo site and link you.
For fifty dollars, that is.
I'm finding it easier to believe that "you're that guy" who dropped trou in the airport security line...
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Anyway, my question is, why are the names Japanese-esq? Did I miss something somewhere to tell me this was based in an Orient style world?
Only a couple of the names are. Tsuto and Kaijitsu, for example.
It's not an Asian-styled campaign setting, but there is an Asian analog in it.
(I didn't notice your post until now. I hope you come back some day and find this reply, Soulkeeper.) :)
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Not that I actually feel that we need to resurrect this thread, but since it stays high on the radar I gave it 5 minutes with my Random House Japanese-English/English-Japanese Dictionary, which revealed the following.
Ameiko
ame = rain
ikko = a party (of); a group
ameikko = rain group (weird euphemism for rain showers or storms?)
ameiko = misspelling
Tsuto
tsu = connoisseur; expert
to = door OR ten OR rattan OR pagoda; tower OR group; political party
tsuto = expert in political parties (seems appropriate, actually) or maybe expertly made rattan or pagoda
Kaijitsu
kai = seashell; shellfish OR meeting; conference OR party; gathering OR conference
ji = character (letter); handwriting
tsu = connoisseur; expert
kaijitsu = shellfish character expert (clan originator must have had really good calligraphy skills)
Clearly, these people are into groups or gatherings of some form. Three names, three different kanji for the concept. Maybe they're part of some hippy communal back in Minkai, and thus were exiled for their ultra-leftist ideologies?
Tsuto
tsu = connoisseur; expert
to = door OR ten OR rattan OR pagoda; tower OR group; political party
tsuto = expert in political parties (seems appropriate, actually) or maybe expertly made rattan or pagoda
I know it's a bit of a jump, but how about "strawman" and by further extension, "paper tiger".
Personally, I think the point is the reason you have to be careful with Japanese sounding names is the same reason that you would avoid creating a name like Qvasan in English. While it appears to follow English rules, (Trevor has the same pattern of consonant-vowel), an English reader stumbles over reading the 'Qv' because those letters don't follow in English. (See Do'Urden, Drizzt.)
This is something of the reverse case. A reader who knows Japanese sees Ameiko and goes "How would you spell that in kanji?" There's still that momentary confusion that exists. Personally, it doesn't bother me over much, but for someone who is fluent, I can see why it would be distracting, and it would be better to use odd, yet viable Japanese, though that would require a lot more study from the module writer.
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Personally, I think the point is the reason you have to be careful with Japanese sounding names is the same reason that you would avoid creating a name like Qvasan in English. While it appears to follow English rules, (Trevor has the same pattern of consonant-vowel), an English reader stumbles over reading the 'Qv' because those letters don't follow in English. (See Do'Urden, Drizzt.)
This is something of the reverse case. A reader who knows Japanese sees Ameiko and goes "How would you spell that in kanji?" There's still that momentary confusion that exists. Personally, it doesn't bother me over much, but for someone who is fluent, I can see why it would be distracting, and it would be better to use odd, yet viable Japanese, though that would require a lot more study from the module writer.
I dunno - as has been previously stated, kanji aren't really an issue for a fantasy language that doesn't use them. It may keep the same set of syllables, but that's all the relationship Minkai has to Japanese, and I really don't know why the authors owe any more than that.
For that matter, it might well be safer to go that route than to risk the alternative: coming up with something that is meaningful, but not in the way you want (the "Kuso" problem, if you will).
Along these lines I was just looking over the 1E Oriental Adventures book recently and the stuff in there - though it seems Gygax did some research - is ever so slightly off-seeming as well. Kara-Tur's China (Shou Lung) seems to use some sort of odd mix of Mandarin and ... something else. I can live with it though...in fact, I'm using some of the ideas in there as background for my RotR character from Tian Xia. :)
M
For that matter, it might well be safer to go that route than to risk the alternative: coming up with something that is meaningful, but not in the way you want (the "Kuso" problem, if you will).
Or Harry Dickson. Ahem.
I dunno - as has been previously stated, kanji aren't really an issue for a fantasy language that doesn't use them. It may keep the same set of syllables, but that's all the relationship Minkai has to Japanese, and I really don't know why the authors owe any more than that.
Well, I'd argue that Minkai is enough Japanese for my mind to switch over and use the Japanese pronunciation, and I'm not terribly fantastic in Japanese. And indeed, you're right, it's not an issue for the Minkai. However, for Japanese readers, it's probably a bit off-putting.
And before you say we don't have any Japanese readers, I know for a fact that Pathfinder has at least one. I sent my friend in Sendai a copy of Pathfinder #1 (which arrived before my own, much to my annoyance...) and his Japanese wife, who plays with him, read it.
Hmm. Actually, let me get back to you. I'll point this thread out to my buddy, and ask what his wife's opinion on the whole thing is. Quite frankly, if she doesn't have a problem with it, the rest of us should just be quiet about it.
Well, if we take her opinion of Minkai names into account then I want some say with all of the weird 'western' style names that are nigh on unpronounceable. :)
M
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For that matter, it might well be safer to go that route than to risk the alternative: coming up with something that is meaningful, but not in the way you want (the "Kuso" problem, if you will).Or Harry Dickson. Ahem.
Dick Butkus. I would've changed my name--it's not that expensive.
Dick Butkus. I would've changed my name--it's not that expensive.
Oh, you're a fine one to talk! What kind of name is Azzy anyway? Please don't tell me it's short for Azrael. Makes me think of Gargamel's cat or Chris Kattan's goth character.
Just kidding, don't take me too seriously. Growing up, I knew folks with the legal names of Rainbow, Spring, Summer, Winter, Autumn, and Aragorn. Seriously, he's named after the King of Middle Earth, right on his birth certificate.
Besides, they named an award after Dick Butkus! It would be pretty expensive to fix all those trophies. Big tough guy like that, probably no one ever bothered to tell him he had a funny name. He probably still doesn't know...
Not that I actually feel that we need to resurrect this thread, but since it stays high on the radar I gave it 5 minutes with my Random House Japanese-English/English-Japanese Dictionary, which revealed the following.
Ameiko
ame = rain
ikko = a party (of); a group
ameikko = rain group (weird euphemism for rain showers or storms?)
ameiko = misspellingTsuto
tsu = connoisseur; expert
to = door OR ten OR rattan OR pagoda; tower OR group; political party
tsuto = expert in political parties (seems appropriate, actually) or maybe expertly made rattan or pagodaKaijitsu
kai = seashell; shellfish OR meeting; conference OR party; gathering OR conference
ji = character (letter); handwriting
tsu = connoisseur; expert
kaijitsu = shellfish character expert (clan originator must have had really good calligraphy skills)Clearly, these people are into groups or gatherings of some form. Three names, three different kanji for the concept. Maybe they're part of some hippy communal back in Minkai, and thus were exiled for their ultra-leftist ideologies?
Unfortunately, it's not as easy as mix-and-match. :(
It's true that many Japanese names are combinations of words, i.e. Moriyama = forest-mountain, but these names are all generally traditionally existing, and there's a certain science to how they go together and what goes with what.
You can generally tell by someone's last name something about their ancestors, because for a long time there weren't any in the peasant classes, and so when last names got created for them, the names of wherever they were living were used. So someone named Moriyama or Tanaka is basically descended from peasants, whereas someone with a name like Jyuujyou or Ichiemon is descended from a noble family or a samurai family.
I'm sure you knew all that, though! :)
Maybe they were conspiring to sell shellfish at twice the normal price? We all know how quickly that can bring the wrath of the gods down upon one's head.
Keep studying Japanese!
Ganbareba ganbaru hodo jyoutatsu nasaimasu yo.
Personally, I think the point is the reason you have to be careful with Japanese sounding names is the same reason that you would avoid creating a name like Qvasan in English. While it appears to follow English rules, (Trevor has the same pattern of consonant-vowel), an English reader stumbles over reading the 'Qv' because those letters don't follow in English. (See Do'Urden, Drizzt.)
This is something of the reverse case. A reader who knows Japanese sees Ameiko and goes "How would you spell that in kanji?" There's still that momentary confusion that exists. Personally, it doesn't bother me over much, but for someone who is fluent, I can see why it would be distracting, and it would be better to use odd, yet viable Japanese, though that would require a lot more study from the module writer.
You are...much more succinct and convincing than me.
As a fluent speaker, it doesn't bother me THAT much.
But I consider module, adventure as works of art.
When I first read it, I wasn't outraged or anything. I don't expect very much from American publications when it comes to representing Japanese things. But because I know Paizo is so good and I do have high expectations of them, it just felt a little like someone missed a spot of polish on the diamond.
It would require more work from the module writer, I agree.
But that's a sacrifice which I'm willing to make. :)
(....so sorry...)
m(_ _)m
As a fluent speaker, it doesn't bother me THAT much.
But I consider module, adventure as works of art.
When I first read it, I wasn't outraged or anything. I don't expect very much from American publications when it comes to representing Japanese things. But because I know Paizo is so good and I do have high expectations of them, it just felt a little like someone missed a spot of polish on the diamond.
Sorry to harp on but does this not assume that they were *trying* to use correct Japanese and botched the job - as opposed to trying to make up some names that had Japanese flavor (as representatives from Paizo have noted repeatedly in this thread?)
I'm not gonna hang them when they pick a Chinese name, excuse me Tian Xia name, that doesn't quite suite my idea of proper Chineseishness. Seriously. It's Minkai, not Japan. It's Tian Xia, not China. And it's Varisia, not the south of France. Apples and oranges.
Guess I'm just not getting how you're still hung up on this. You seem like a pretty smart Joe and this is simple stuff.
M